Is Rnb Northernsoul?

[Liamgp]

I first encountered this bicker-fest around the time of Stafford when more 'RnB' tinged stuff was being played mostly by Keb and Guy. Quite a few of the hardened Wiganites I knew were very scornful of the likes of Arthur Alexander or Stewart Ames becoming popular with the younger crowd. On the other hand they all ran off and bought copies of Tommy Navarro (boot or otherwise) and that was Latin! Oooh, I don't know, there's nowt as queer as folk.

[Pete S]

I first encountered this bicker-fest around the time of Stafford when more 'RnB' tinged stuff was being played mostly by Keb and Guy. Quite a few of the hardened Wiganites I knew were very scornful of the likes of Arthur Alexander or Stewart Ames becoming popular with the younger crowd. On the other hand they all ran off and bought copies of Tommy Navarro (boot or otherwise) and that was Latin! Oooh, I don't know, there's nowt as queer as folk.

 

Stewart Ames?  That's just plain ol' Northern!

[Back Street Blue]

Let your conscience be your guide.......

 

Blues ?......(Sonny Boy Williamson - LYCBYG)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJKWBVBc1Jw

 

Soul ?.....(Marvin Gaye - LYCBYG)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EhnXvHr9Ho

 

Northern Soul ?....(Little Walter Hammond - LYCBYG)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvuToRGj860

 

 

.......f*cked if I know 

[KevH]

Quality early NS for peanuts...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFliLf02fHk

[pogo paul]

How can you class The Baltimore & ohio marching band as mid sixties soul- Mid-sixties yes , Soul NO! Northern Soul Yes!

Class it as crap! along with alot of other Northern Soul classics. Sixities RnB rules!

[Ernie Andrews]

Class it as crap! along with alot of other Northern Soul classics. Sixities RnB rules!

I think a lot of people will disagree with you- Im no  oldies fan  but  IMO you don't understand Northern soul  if you think its crap!

[pogo paul]

Where would we be without the Mod scene introducing tunes like JT Parker to the Soulies?? :-)

Without the Mod scene introducing RnB in this country, there would be no n. soul scene. probably!

[Spacehopper]

How can you class The Baltimore & ohio marching band as mid sixties soul- Mid-sixties yes , Soul NO! Northern Soul Yes!

confused?..i didnt

[pogo paul]

I think a lot of people will disagree with you- Im no  oldies fan  but  IMO you don't understand Northern soul  if you think its crap!

Not to my taste, can't stand it!

You are probably right, do you understand n. soul then? Mr Godin

[Cunnie]

R Kelly, so called new R&B or is it a Northern Soul anthem just waiting to be discovered    
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wCsvbySEtM

[Pete S]

confused?..i didnt

 

It's not cinfusing really.  Condition Red is your typical oddball Northern Soul record.  On many levels it's rubbish.  On other levels, it's a fantastic record to dance to and is absolutely Northern Soul, even though there is actually no soul content.  So many fantastic Northern Soul records are by artists with no soul qualifications whatsoever, but we still love 'em.

[Pete S]

R Kelly, so called new R&B or is it a Northern Soul anthem just waiting to be discovered    

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wCsvbySEtM

 

I'd call it a very average 60's pastiche.  

[Cunnie]

I'd call it a very average 60's pastiche.  

A bit like Condition Red then Pete  

One of those never ending arguments but if it's played on't Northern Soul scene then it's Northern Soul.

[hullsoul]

It's not cinfusing really.  Condition Red is your typical oddball Northern Soul record.  On many levels it's rubbish.  On other levels, it's a fantastic record to dance to and is absolutely Northern Soul, even though there is actually no soul content.  So many fantastic Northern Soul records are by artists with no soul qualifications whatsoever, but we still love 'em.

Pete

So it's a dance scene not a soul scene?I think it is a dance scene first & we get too hung up on the soul bit sometimes?

Cheers

Martyn

[Pete S]

A bit like Condition Red then Pete  

One of those never ending arguments but if it's played on't Northern Soul scene then it's Northern Soul.

 

What bizarre logic, you're saying a 60's record recorded in the 60's sounds like a pastiche of a 60's record?

And as for your second statement - doesn't make sense - if I played Freddie & The Dreamers at a Northern do, it doesn't automatically make it Northern Soul. It just makes me in need of some kind of specialist treatment.

[Pete S]

Pete

So it's a dance scene not a soul scene?I think it is a dance scene first & we get too hung up on the soul bit sometimes?

Cheers

Martyn

 

It used to be.  Don't know about now, a lot of the white records would never get played today. It's nice to remember them from time to time though.  But yes it is predomanently a dance scene.

[Cunnie]

 It just makes me in need of some kind of specialist treatment.

Steady on Pete......

[Cunnie]

Pete

So it's a dance scene not a soul scene?I think it is a dance scene first & we get too hung up on the soul bit sometimes?

Cheers

Martyn

If anyone ever ask's me what kind of music I am into I tell them Soulful Dance music from the early 60's through to present day. Makes life easier but people still stereotype me as a Northern fan as it's all they understand.

[Slim Jim]

For me its all about if its got soul and feeling .

 

I'm not a big R&B fan as some people seem to overplay it , a couple of tracks is fine but not a full set .

 

I've heard some brilliant R&B tracks but when people start playing what to all intents and purposes is rock and roll and try to pass it off as R&B/Soul that turns me off. T

 

There is some shit being played passed off as R&B .

Edited October 10, 2013 by Slim Jim

[Pete S]

For me its all about if its got soul and feeling .

 

I'm not a big R&B fan as some people seem to overplay it , a couple of tracks is fine but not a full set .

 

I've heard some brilliant R&B tracks but when people start playing what to all intents and purposes is rock and roll and try to pass it off as R&B/Soul that turns me off. T

 

There is some shit being played passed off as R&B .

 

Yeah I think in the search for more and more obscure tracks, they went a little too far back, though I love most of the older stuff as well, but it bears no relationship to Northern Soul which it was originally a kind of offshoot from.  Then again, neither does most modern soul.

[Mr Smithy]

R&B IS THE ABBREVIATION FOR RHYTHM AND BLUES......... NOT NORTHERN SOUL.

 

IN MY WORLD R&B IN ITS LONGER GUTSE STANDS FOR...........

 

RUBBISH AND BO**OCKS!!!!!

 

REGARDS ROY

Won't argue with you there but I'm sure there's some that would. Orses for courses an all that.

Wouldn't mind a translation of "IN ITS LONGER GUTSE" though

 

[Keeper]

Where would we be without the Mod scene introducing tunes like JT Parker to the Soulies?? :-)

Well said...thought about this tune on reading this thread this morning. A certain Mr Taylor plays this quite often in his sets much to my delight!! Also much to the delight apparently, of many "Northern only" fans who can't stand RnB !!??

[Chalky]

Well said...thought about this tune on reading this thread this morning. A certain Mr Taylor plays this quite often in his sets much to my delight!! Also much to the delight apparently, of many "Northern only" fans who can't stand RnB !!??

Wel said for what, making things up? Getting her facts wrong?

Edited October 10, 2013 by chalky

[rodders]

There have been some lovely (white)pop oddities played on the northern scene over the years, joannie summers Helen Shapiro Paul anka etc are they soul? No but I've loved them all the same.unlike some twerp that played 5000 volts at Wigan which totally pissed me off.

Love the the saying"if I had to explain it you wouldn't understand it".

[Emily73]

I didn't realise we were playing a game? How old are you? You simply made a statement, one you couldn't corroborate because you weren't there, twice, and I simply corrected you. Not out to score points just get the facts right.

 

No games mate, just a figure of speech as in "you win" you were right, I wasn't there.

I stand corrected. No biggie.

[Keeper]

Wel said for what, making things up?

I was referring more to the choice of track to emphasise the point being made here ....wasn't aware anything had been made up at that point . sorry if you had a bad day !!

[Spacehopper]

It's not cinfusing really.  Condition Red is your typical oddball Northern Soul record.  On many levels it's rubbish.  On other levels, it's a fantastic record to dance to and is absolutely Northern Soul, even though there is actually no soul content.  So many fantastic Northern Soul records are by artists with no soul qualifications whatsoever, but we still love 'em.

 

I understand that pete but was confused as to why my post was quoted that's all?...I mentioned the term northern soul meaning mid tempo 60s soul when it was first coined and don't think dave godin had the 'crap' instrumentals in mind..if indeed that many were being played in what 73 was it?....my point was over the next few years 'northern' did include allsorts of stuff that wasn't soul

 

by the way I like condition red..nostalgic reasons ,big on the scooter scene in the mid 80s when I was a teen..not sure if id wanna hear it out too much though

[Pete S]

There have been some lovely (white)pop oddities played on the northern scene over the years, joannie summers Helen Shapiro Paul anka etc are they soul? No but I've loved them all the same.unlike some twerp that played 5000 volts at Wigan which totally pissed me off.

Love the the saying"if I had to explain it you wouldn't understand it".

 

You know what though, I've got two tapes with "I'm On Fire" on from Wigan, actually they are both the instrumental version, so they must have had it on a pre release before it got near the charts.

[Chalky]

I was referring more to the choice of track to emphasise the point being made here ....wasn't aware anything had been made up at that point . sorry if you had a bad day !!

I haven't had a bad day. Far from it.

Just what was the point being made? It was the wrong choice if track because if you read on you will see it went from Northern Scene to mod scene.

[Pete S]

I understand that pete but was confused as to why my post was quoted that's all?...I mentioned the term northern soul meaning mid tempo 60s soul when it was first coined and don't think dave godin had the 'crap' instrumentals in mind..if indeed that many were being played in what 73 was it?....my point was over the next few years 'northern' did include allsorts of stuff that wasn't soul

 

by the way I like condition red..nostalgic reasons ,big on the scooter scene in the mid 80s when I was a teen..not sure if id wanna hear it out too much though

 

Quoted by me? Just because it had the word confused in I think. I don't know, I'm confused myself.

But I can definitely say with a lot of confidence that 1973 and 1974 were the years of the instrumental and people were actively seeking out instrumental versions of well known classics, I'd say maybe 30% of all records played then were insts as compared to maybe 2% nowadays

[stokesoulboy]

Simon , people like you make the scene what it is - long may it continue - top500 r n b new discoveries - modern in the Windsor - mace Johnny Beggs des Parker - Latin creeping in - ted Massey ties - Sean n Nige - kev n Richard and blocked Wigan bogs - great post - great thread - made me smile - I'm of to play little willie john

[Keeper]

I haven't had a bad day. Far from it.

Just what was the point being made? It was the wrong choice if track because if you read on you will see it went from Northern Scene to mod scene.

Don't want to keep on with it but the point was.....in my opinion that track is RnB no matter who played it first or looked over someones shoulder (or didn't ).I don't class it as Northern  even though its popular many different nights....Personally i'm not arsed which bracket it goes in as i'm happy to hear different styles and dance to them on a night out

[Pete S]

Don't want to keep on with it but the point was.....in my opinion that track is RnB no matter who played it first or looked over someones shoulder (or didn't ).I don't class it as Northern  even though its popular many different nights....Personally i'm not arsed which bracket it goes in as i'm happy to hear different styles and dance to them on a night out

 

I only heard it for the first time today after it was getting discussed, it sounds a ringer for Peggy Lee's "Fever" as do lots of R & B (and pop) records of the period (that, and a million Stand By Me influenced tunes) I have to say I really like them personally and it's borderline Northern / R & B, could be described as either really.

[Emily73]

Wel said for what, making things up? Getting her facts wrong?

 

I wasn't making things up, I genuinely believed it was played on the Mod scene first. You don't need to keep it going?

[Reg]

I hear records like Richard Berry and Patience wotsit and I think that's a step too far...I didn't even like hearing that on the mod scene. But I love latin so some would argue that has no place on the northern scene either. I like RNB to the extent of Bobby Bland Yum Yum Tree, Baby Washington Move on...but any more rocky/c&w I'm gone.

[Ernie Andrews]

I hear records like Richard Berry and Patience wotsit and I think that's a step too far...I didn't even like hearing that on the mod scene. But I love latin so some would argue that has no place on the northern scene either. I like RNB to the extent of Bobby Bland Yum Yum Tree, Baby Washington Move on...but any more rocky/c&w I'm gone.

2 of my favs Reg BB & BW But these 2 records must be at the ends of each spectrum of RnB

[pogo paul]

Don't think you could get a better example of RnB than Bobby Bland, as said before, some examples went too far back and are more jump blues/ RnR than RnB.

[Spacehopper]

Quoted by me? Just because it had the word confused in I think. I don't know, I'm confused myself.

But I can definitely say with a lot of confidence that 1973 and 1974 were the years of the instrumental and people were actively seeking out instrumental versions of well known classics, I'd say maybe 30% of all records played then were insts as compared to maybe 2% nowadays

lol...again cross wires..my original post had been quoted by ernie andrews i think not by you..and i was confused by his post quoting me as i hadnt mentioned condition red and whether it was soul or not...

 

as for instrumentals..again i didnt mean versions of soul tunes in the early years i meant shit like joe 90 etc that i thought came a few years after the original term 'northern' had been used but was still classed as northern....using it to show how over the years northern has meant so many more different genres of dance music..which if i remember right was what the thread was originally about..the inclusion of rnb

 

think we should leave it there rather than go round in circles hijacking the thread with confusion

 

dean

[Guest Bearsy]

RnB is for mods and mods wear funny clothes and have silly haircuts and dance like serious hippies riding hair dryers and JT Parker is a friggin awful record and the mods should take it and keep it ......

Its All rock n roll baby .....

[Reg]

2 of my favs Reg BB & BW But these 2 records must be at the ends of each spectrum of RnB

I do like early R&B as long as it has the more bluesy sound..   It's when it sounds more rock and roll/country it seems a bit alien at a soul/mod night.  Richard Berry for example-I know that it doesn't get played that much on the mod scene anymore but there was a time when it did a lot and I have still heard it at NS nights (and not in an R&B room).   My dad was a ted and he liked that song   . It all sounds a bit Darts to me  haha 

 

Horses for courses I guess

Edited October 11, 2013 by Reg

[Chalky]

Don't want to keep on with it but the point was.....in my opinion that track is RnB no matter who played it first or looked over someones shoulder (or didn't ).I don't class it as Northern  even though its popular many different nights....Personally i'm not arsed which bracket it goes in as i'm happy to hear different styles and dance to them on a night out

But what is northern? It is a name given to a scene not a genre of music. Under the umbrella that is Northern Soul just about every type of music is in there and a large part of it is R&B. R&B has been part of the scene since it's roots so to say something isn't northern soul is just ridiculous.

The JT Parker track is R&B no one said it isn't but it is also Northern Soul, that's why Ginger Taylor, Des Parker. Ted Massey and not forgetting Andy Dyson have played it at All-nighters.

[Stevie T]

Be nice to to hear Mamie Perry , lament  at a N.S night , that should go down well  , one of my faves , just a thought ! 

[Bazza]

R Kelly, so called new R&B or is it a Northern Soul anthem just waiting to be discovered    

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wCsvbySEtM

Nowt wrong with this ,it is what it is,whats not to like ,as for R&B many folk will tell you they don't like it ,after just walking off the floor having just danced to an R&B tune 

 

Bazza  

[Guest]

Who cares what it is I struggle to define whats RnB and whats northen just enjoy the music.

[manus]

For me its all about if its got soul and feeling .

 

I'm not a big R&B fan as some people seem to overplay it , a couple of tracks is fine but not a full set .

 

I've heard some brilliant R&B tracks but when people start playing what to all intents and purposes is rock and roll and try to pass it off as R&B/Soul that turns me off. T

 

There is some shit being played passed off as R&B .

 

Yes agree - one criteria might be if you can envisage someone being able to jive to the beat of the record then don't play it at a Soul venue - not saying that makes something a bad record just not really in keeping with the Soul scene. I've heard some fantastic Soul/R&B records that deservedly get plays.

[Stubbsy]

Wasnt Rnb where it all started ??? It's one of the sub genre that's a major part of the scene ! Fine examples below...

Jimmy Robin - I Can't Please You

Big Daddy Rodgers - I'm A Big Man

Mickey Champion - What Good Am I

Ac Reed - My Baby Been Cheating

 

All great RnB tunes but you omitted the best one -

 

Dorothy Williams - Watchdog

Edited October 11, 2013 by Stubbsy

[Bazza]

Now this is R&B and I love it 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3gExLIzwh8

 

Faye Simmons - Tell Me I'm Yours

 

Don't think it would go down to well at a Nighter tho 

 

Bazza  

[Sikirby]

Does this answer the question???

Rhythm and blues, often abbreviated to R&B and RnB, is a genre of popular African-American music that originated in the 1940s The term was originally used by record companies to describe recordings marketed predominantly to urban African Americans, at a time when "urbane, rocking, jazz based music with a heavy, insistent beat" was becoming more popular

The term has subsequently had a number of shifts in meaning. In the early 1950s, the term rhythm and blues was frequently applied to blues records.[3] Starting in the mid-1950s, after this style of music contributed to the development of rock and roll, the term "R&B" became used to refer to music styles that developed from and incorporated electric blues, as well as gospel and soul music. By the 1970s, rhythm and blues was used as a blanket term for soul and funk. In the 1980s, a newer style of R&B developed, becoming known as "Contemporary R&B".

Soul music is a combination of R&B and gospel and began in the late 1950s in the United States. Soul differentiates from R&B due to Soul music's use of gospel-music devices, its greater emphasis on vocalists and its merging of religious and secular themes.

Soul music can find its roots in 4 different sources: racial, geographical, historical and economical. The 1950s recordings of Sam Cooke, Ray Charles and James Brown are commonly considered the beginnings of soul music. There are many different types of Soul music, including, but not limited to: Southern Soul, Neo-Soul and Psychedelic Soul (which paved the way for Funk music in the 1960s. Soul music was born in Memphis and more widely in the southern US where most of the performing artists were from.

More than any other genre of popular American music, Soul is the result of the combination and merging of previous styles and sub-styles in the 1950s and 60s. Broadly speaking, soul comes from a gospel (the sacred) and blues (the profane). Blues was mainly a musical style that praised the fleshly desire whereas gospel was more oriented toward spiritual inspiration.

Once it gained popularity, Soul gradually came into white musical groups and was then called "Blue-Eyed Soul." Soul music ruled the black musical charts throughout the 1960s and inspired many other music styles such as current pop music and funk. In fact it never went away, it simply evolved.

[Guest Byrney]

As with Latin, beat ballads etc if it's accepted at an allnighter than its Northern. I think this is the only R&B record I've ever owned but still a fookin corker ( I know some hate it

Gladys Tyler Little Bitty Girl

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cbkQQ5JKRF0

Edited October 11, 2013 by Byrney

[Tony A]

Now this is R&B and I love it 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3gExLIzwh8

 

Faye Simmons - Tell Me I'm Yours

 

Don't think it would go down to well at a Nighter tho 

 

Bazza  

 

I've played it out, and the dancefloor was busy.