Rant Time

[Ernie Andrews]

Irma Routen - MGM

Please tell me why this has jumped from £100-£150 to £750 all of a sudden!

 I see because some daft dealer prices it at £750 then the bandwagoners are at it! What makes the bandwagoner so blatant is they list it at the same price the dealer sold it for! Hang your head in shame because you have no imagination!

Its ok but not that good ( I disagree with Ian Levine) and I think the other side is abetter soul record If Im not mistaken.

ITs really depressing to see records like this to be blatantly hyped up to increase price that gives the scene a bad name.

£750 is a joke for a record like this even if its a difficult MGM one CHrist you can buy a Mel Britt  or George Blackwell for that for that or probably 20 or 30 records that are better than Irma Routen. THank F**K IM selling my collection as Id be embarrassed to think that the Doris Smallwood Ive just sold for £30 would on someone's list next week for £500 Come on get a grip and have some self respect! Ive nothing against making a profit on a purchase but selling IR for £750 is obscene!

Edited September 2, 2013 by Ernie Andrews

[Pete S]

£7.50 is obscene for that record.

[Quinvy]

Yeh, nearly as bad as £2k for Sir Joe on Ru jac. 

[KevH]

Yeh, nearly as bad as £2k for Sir Joe on Ru jac. 

 

 

Now ,now Phil.

I thought the Irma Routen was a high price,but not kept an eye on it.Maybe its rarer than first thought.

[Ernie Andrews]

Ive always said we need a price guide on here to stop the Bandwagoners!

I asked a question to a particular bandwangoner who of course did not answer the question asked! Surprise Surprise!

[Steve G]

It's not really rare . Known to collectors who've either had it / have it, or 'passed' on it in the past.....(I am in the latter camp). I too preferred the other side, but what do I know? Levine says it's the "best thing in 30 years", so those that follow him will be clambering over each other to find a copy now. And that's when the price jumps. Those that feel they "need it" expect one on the JM auction soon...... 

Edited September 3, 2013 by Steve G

[Pete S]

[Pete S]

£750, I honestly think you could spend that on £5 records and all 150 of them would be better than Irma Routen.  You could easily find £150 x £5 records better than that.  And as Steve said - you could have a George Blackwell or a Mel Britt for a similar price.  George Blackwell, Mel Britt, Irma Routen. Spot the odd one out.  (Clue: two are classics. One is not).

But you can't blame the person selling the record.  Thats their job, to sell the records.

[Ernie Andrews]

£750, I honestly think you could spend that on £5 records and all 150 of them would be better than Irma Routen.  You could easily find £150 x £5 records better than that.  And as Steve said - you could have a George Blackwell or a Mel Britt for a similar price.  George Blackwell, Mel Britt, Irma Routen. Spot the odd one out.  (Clue: two are classics. One is not).

But you can't blame the person selling the record.  Thats their job, to sell the records.

But you can blame the seller Pete as it artificially raises hyped up prices that does the scene a disservice and the seller I am referring to wasn't even imaginative in their price! They just jumped on the bandwagon of hype concocted by a dealer who should have been slapped down for their outrageous fleecing and distorting the constant price!

Edited September 3, 2013 by Ernie Andrews

[Ernie Andrews]

It's not really rare . Known to collectors who've either had it / have it, or 'passed' on it in the past.....(I am in the latter camp). I too preferred the other side, but what do I know? Levine says it's the "best thing in 30 years", so those that follow him will be clambering over each other to find a copy now. And that's when the price jumps. Those that feel they "need it" expect one on the JM auction soon......

I follow Levine and I disagree with him on this occasion - Wheres the evidence to suggest this is a £750 record? Its bollocks hyped up by the Dealer and bandwagonned by people on here! - No empirical evidence whatsoever - Lets hype up a non too well know 45 by say the Sensations that normally sells for £20 and get a dealer to say Its realty rare and then get Butch to say Its bloody amazing and next you know its £300 ( The scene is becoming a Joke) Lets have a price guide on here!

Edited September 3, 2013 by Ernie Andrews

[Cover-up]

But you can blame the seller

Personally, I don't think you can, you can only blame the buyers. If someone wants to pay £750 then more fool them, they're the ones distorting the price. You see it on eBay all the time, a record which sells for £100 one week, next week another copy sells for £20. If people don't like the price, don't pay it, and the price will fall to its natural value. Which can obviously vary on a weekly basis.

Edited September 3, 2013 by cover-up

[Ernie Andrews]

Personally, I don't think you can, you can only blame the buyers. If someone wants to pay £750 then more fool them, they're the ones distorting the price. You see it on eBay all the time, a record which sells for £100 one week, next week another copy sells for £20. If people don't like the price, don't pay it, and the price will fall to its natural value. Which can obviously vary on a weekly basis.

I disagree - If Pete S had put it up for that price I sure questions would have been asked . Even JM bases his prices on past sales and as this had constant price of around £100 - £150 then how come its jumped 5 fold with no empirical evidence t back it up!

[Dean]

Ernie i agree with the spirit of your rant, but £750 for Mel Britt ? ? ? My ceiling is around £300 but I'd look twice at a Mel Britt for £750 

[Orotava]

Was it ever pressed??

[Steve G]

Irma Routen no, Mel Britt yes.

[Liljimmycrank]

The last copy of irma routen I saw for sale (and more importantly sold) was for £350. And that was 3 years ago.

That's not to say there hasn't been more, and not knowing if there has been more sales I couldn't say whether they went for more or less.

I don't think the copy sold at £750, as it was reduced to 700 recently. This is a hard record to find, whether you I've it or loath it. Rare? Perhaps not, but it doesn't come up for sale often.

So maybe one dealer chances it and someone pays that price. Thing is, that's sets a prescident for others to follow. If that copy then sells at said price, and the one after does, is that not then becoming the market value?

Like has been said, price a record at whatever you want, doesn't mean it will sell. And until it sells there's no shift in the market for the item.

There must be thousands of records from over the years that you could have the same arguement about.

I think it's up to the buyer to do their research first. If they want it so bad though, that's when 'inflated' prices are achieved and become the norm

[Jnixon]

out of interest, who is the dealer in question?

[Ernie Andrews]

I sold it 3 years ago for £150 and others had sold it at around that price around the same time- The constant price for it being a rare MGM number  over the years was £100 - £150  so how come it just rocketed to £750. My gripe is on the dealers speculative pricing (Where the evidence is of past sales is ignored)  and the bandwagonners not even having an imagination to price it differently to the other dealer! I just think its nonsense and in my opinion is questionable behaviour on the part of the dealer but hey ho its a free for all and price guides mean nothing and you can price anything you want at anything you want without fear of ridicule. If this was in a different field of product and 2 suppliers advertise at the same price then they might be accused of price fixing.

 

Hypothetical situation

I have 2 copies of Pages- heartaches and pain for sale . One is around the past sales price of £150-£200 and the other is at  £1000 because Im gonna get a dealer to price it at that! which one is realistic? and why?

 

Rant over!

[Ted Massey]

I sold mine for 450 about a year ago

[Raremusicdirect]

A seller can of course ask any price he feels achievable. If it doesn't sell he can keep the record or reduce the price to entice a sale. As discussed before it depends on circumstance and timing very often.

 

The last copy I have seen for sale of this was / is from the seller Tone Deaf Monkey.    £ 750 now at £ 700.  He is close to the market and will have made a judgement call as to its value, the market will decide if its right.................

[Spacehopper]

another just gone on sales for offers...a few about then

[Dave Pinch]

I sold it 3 years ago for £150 and others had sold it at around that price around the same time- The constant price for it being a rare MGM number  over the years was £100 - £150  so how come it just rocketed to £750. My gripe is on the dealers speculative pricing (Where the evidence is of past sales is ignored)  and the bandwagonners not even having an imagination to price it differently to the other dealer! I just think its nonsense and in my opinion is questionable behaviour on the part of the dealer but hey ho its a free for all and price guides mean nothing and you can price anything you want at anything you want without fear of ridicule. If this was in a different field of product and 2 suppliers advertise at the same price then they might be accused of price fixing.

 

Hypothetical situation

I have 2 copies of Pages- heartaches and pain for sale . One is around the past sales price of £150-£200 and the other is at  £1000 because Im gonna get a dealer to price it at that! which one is realistic? and why?

 

Rant over!

I think an original pages would be a bit more than £200......but way less than £1000

[Quinvy]

What a load of rubbish talked on here again. I was after a copy of Irma Routen  a while ago. I asked all the big dealers, Tim Brown had never had it, I also put wants on here and scoured the internet. Nothing. I finally got one off the guy who had been playing the Daydreams side in his sets for ages, and because of that a lot of people were looking for it. As soon as I had recorded it and moved it on, one appeared on ebay I think it went for around £300 not sure. Sods law. 

 

In the scheme of things it isn't very good. But everyone is desperate for something new to play and that means that these type of records will get played out, and others will want to own them and that's when the price goes up. Supply and demand. The thread starter sounds very bitter because he sold it before the demand. 

 

And by the way, this record has gone for big money for quite a while. too many on here living in the past when big tunes could be found for sale at any allnighter and for peanuts. Yes and you could buy a terraced house for £2k around the same time. Get over yourselves. We all know that if you wait long enough the record you always wanted will turn up at the right price. The thing is, some of us want to own them when the emotion is still there, not 20 years later.

[Garethx]

^

Hits the nail on the head.

[Ernie Andrews]

IM not bitter at all Quinvy  Fuck I sold the Del larks in 1980 for £60 am I bitter it goes for 3k now - NO! I just think and as you rightly said - Looking for something new to play! but does that mean that it should be overhyped in terms of quality and price - That's my gripe! I just think that £750 for it is obscene and in my view distorts the whole aspect of record prices but as been said by many - Supply & demand means any price guide is obsolete so don't bother with them at all - Maybe your right and Im out of touch on prices but Ive seen records that were relatively cheap become 100 pounders because of nothing more than overhyping.- You might as well remove the Comedy sale of the day thread because any comment on outlandish prices could be answered with "Supply & demand"  and all the bulshit that goes with it Copies have dried up or Such a DJ is playing it! - Its bollocks !

LIke I said I sold a record this week to a German guy - not in any guides as far as I know - looked on popsike 2 copies 1@$107 and one at $47 Guess what price I sold it for Answer £30 should I have charged $107 using the old addage Supply & demand or realistically priced it? which is I what I did!

[Steve G]

Another one for sale today and it's a credible collector's "spare copy".....Like I said in the beginning it's not rare, despite what Ian says.....just an uncommon record. And just because the main dealers don't happen to have a copy in stock doesn't make it rare either.

 

Now the £750 seller - I don't think it's his fault. If someone tried to sell you a Ralph Lauren Polo shirt for £350 it's the buyer who'd be the mug for buying it, you'd think the seller was potty and walk away....Same with records isn't it? Work on the assumption that dealers will get what they can. 

[Mike Lofthouse]

I sold mine for 450 about a year ago

 and the demand seems to be greater than ever so it is not such a big jump to £700/£750 in the scale of things is it?

[Guest]

Seller in question would be me.

I sold it and upset Steve who keeps ranting on about asking £750, unimaginatively copying the previous sale. Strange because I only ever listed it at £700. It sold and I had another collector ask to buy it after it's sale. It's my record and I earn a living selling records so I'll price them at whatever price I wish. 

 

I've already had Steve ranting at me via PM, demanding I justify the asking price and blaming me for the decline in the scene because I'm nothing but an immoral opportunist?!?!?

[Pete S]

Seller in question would be me.

I sold it and upset Steve who keeps ranting on about asking £750, unimaginatively copying the previous sale. Strange because I only ever listed it at £700. It sold and I had another collector ask to buy it after it's sale. It's my record and I earn a living selling records so I'll price them at whatever price I wish. 

 

I've already had Steve ranting at me via PM, demanding I justify the asking price and blaming me for the decline in the scene because I'm nothing but an immoral opportunist?!?!?

 

What are you meant to do, ask a panel of 10 record buyers and sellers what a fair price to sell the record for is?

You got £700 for it, good luck to you.  It's supply and demand.

[Guest CapitolSC]

Im the mug who bought it for 700 quid from Brownie

First heard it of Dave Abbott when he put it up on my RnB123 facebook page

Loved it i searched for it no joy so when it came up had the dosh and there you go

Very happy with my purchase but if id know Tony Smith had one i may have tried to coax it off him

Been playing it on the Black music Mod scene where its becomin a bit of a monster

nice Jazzy vibe going on

Cheers guys

Al H

[Steve G]

Seller in question would be me.

I sold it and upset Steve who keeps ranting on about asking £750, unimaginatively copying the previous sale. Strange because I only ever listed it at £700. It sold and I had another collector ask to buy it after it's sale. It's my record and I earn a living selling records so I'll price them at whatever price I wish. 

 

I've already had Steve ranting at me via PM, demanding I justify the asking price and blaming me for the decline in the scene because I'm nothing but an immoral opportunist?!?!?

 

And just to clarify the Steve in question in this email isn't me......

[Guest]

And just to clarify the Steve in question in this email isn't me......

No, most certainly not lol! The Steve I refer to is the real name of user id 'Ernie Andrews'.

[Pete S]

Im the mug who bought it for 700 quid from Brownie

First heard it of Dave Abbott when he put it up on my RnB123 facebook page

Loved it i searched for it no joy so when it came up had the dosh and there you go

Very happy with my purchase but if id know Tony Smith had one i may have tried to coax it off him

Been playing it on the Black music Mod scene where its becomin a bit of a monster

nice Jazzy vibe going on

Cheers guys

Al H

 

Nice confession Al.

Now I know it's you I can't be harsh anymore 

[Guest Bearsy]

Simply its become in demand and Ian Levine raving on how great and rare it is has obviously bought a couple out in the open for sale and those with it for sale will take a punt at what they think its worth and if someone thinks that is a good price they will pay it if not it simply won't sell, On the other side of the discussion is that if the seller sells it at say half that price or the once going rate of 150ish then someone will by it at that price and try their luck and hopefully sell it for more, isn't that what record dealers do ? Buy records and sell on at a profit.

Mello Souls was bought for $20 recently and sold for a ridiculous price of 10k plus.

If Levine hadn't raved on about it would the 2 copies Adam & Tony have offered up been offered up. Doubt it but can you blame them for cashing in, I would cash in if I owned a copy of it that's for sure...

[Ernie Andrews]

What are you meant to do, ask a panel of 10 record buyers and sellers what a fair price to sell the record for is?

You got £700 for it, good luck to you.  It's supply and demand.

Isnt that what people on here do ask what price  a record is?

 

Arrgh- Ive hyped it up even more with this thread!

Edited September 4, 2013 by Ernie Andrews

[Quinvy]

Er yes it would. Like I said earlier, it has been selling for big money for a few years. But that was by people who knew what it was and had heard Cliff Camfield play it as Daydreams by the Daydreams in his set back when I was running Burnley. I remember Steve Green was desperate to get it back then and was advertising on here for it.

Despite people on here not liking to hear it. A lot of the records that people are talking about now, we're played at Burnley and as a result have become sought after by other Dj's. Cliff Camfield is head and shoulders above anyone else, yes even the great Butch. He's the only person who I would go out to hear play a spot. Why?because he has great taste, and he knows how to entertain a crowd, and you will find yourself saying "wow! What the f**k is this" at some point during his set.

Andy Killick is also responsible for playing some tunes that others have picked up on and have since become massive. I.e. the Proffs.

Pottsy on the one and only occasion he Dj'd at Burnley was responsible for launching several records from obscurity to stardom. Including Dewy Black.

Terry gets a lot of grief for singing the praises of the old Burnley. But the fact is, it was way ahead of anything else, and the passion that was created in the three and a half years it ran will never be repeated. If you missed it then the only way to get an idea of what it was like is to go to the next Burnley that Sean runs, and make sure you catch Cliff Camfield's spot.

[Mace]

Bollox.....

 

Thought this was gonna end up being a proper decent handbag brawl but somehow ends up another history lesson on Burnley.....

 

Can't we just all agree that Adam Toppings a cnut whatever price he sold it for.......  ;o)

[Ian Dewhirst]

I'm seriously amazed! A complaint on Soul Source about a record that's suddenly catching attention because it's selling for massive multiples of it's original price?????

 

OK, I agree in principle. Now will everyone on Soul Source who I've ever sold records to over the last 40 years please return them and I'll refund everyone the original price I charged? Yep, that will make it OK with me at least and I'll think much better of the people in question. 

 

Ian D 

[Garethx]

Irma Routen was known decades before Burnley though.

[Ted Massey]

And the Proffs was and Dewey Black

[Tony Smith]

Er yes it would. Like I said earlier, it has been selling for big money for a few years. But that was by people who knew what it was and had heard Cliff Camfield play it as Daydreams by the Daydreams in his set back when I was running Burnley. I remember Steve Green was desperate to get it back then and was advertising on here for it.

Despite people on here not liking to hear it. A lot of the records that people are talking about now, we're played at Burnley and as a result have become sought after by other Dj's. Cliff Camfield is head and shoulders above anyone else, yes even the great Butch. He's the only person who I would go out to hear play a spot. Why?because he has great taste, and he knows how to entertain a crowd, and you will find yourself saying "wow! What the f**k is this" at some point during his set.

Andy Killick is also responsible for playing some tunes that others have picked up on and have since become massive. I.e. the Proffs.

Pottsy on the one and only occasion he Dj'd at Burnley was responsible for launching several records from obscurity to stardom. Including Dewy Black.

Terry gets a lot of grief for singing the praises of the old Burnley. But the fact is, it was way ahead of anything else, and the passion that was created in the three and a half years it ran will never be repeated. If you missed it then the only way to get an idea of what it was like is to go to the next Burnley that Sean runs, and make sure you catch Cliff Camfield's spot.

I played it at Burnley and Steve Green has the recording to prove it, he might have ended up with my spare copy?

 

I also played the Daydream side, Brad from Colne put me on to this record years ago.

 

The copy I have up for offers is mint minus by the way, I let the last copy go for peanuts in trades for a favour, although I know that copy secured my mate a major want go figure?

Edited September 4, 2013 by Tony Smith

[Tony Smith]

What are you meant to do, ask a panel of 10 record buyers and sellers what a fair price to sell the record for is?

You got £700 for it, good luck to you.  It's supply and demand.

Absolutely Pete, and if you get a good price for the Panics you'll be more than happy.

[Quinvy]

And the Proffs was and Dewey Black

Yes but nobody was playing them, or interested in them. It's one thing knowing a record exists, it's quite another to have the taste to play it.

[Quinvy]

Irma Routen was known decades before Burnley though.

Nobody was playing it though we're they?

[Markw]

[Quinvy]

I played it at Burnley and Steve Green has the recording to prove it, he might have ended up with my spare copy?

 

I also played the Daydream side, Brad from Colne put me on to this record years ago.

 

The copy I have up for offers is mint minus by the way, I let the last copy go for peanuts in trades for a favour, although I know that copy secured my mate a major want go figure?

I stand corrected then Tony, Cliff obviously heard you play it. I should also have mentioned that you were responsible for bringing some great records to the attention of us all. That early nighter with you and Steve guesting was a classic night.

[Tony Smith]

I stand corrected then Tony, Cliff obviously heard you play it. I should also have mentioned that you were responsible for bringing some great records to the attention of us all. That early nighter with you and Steve guesting was a classic night.

It was definitely "known" in Burnley, or Colne , I heard it off Brad, who played it to me after getting it back off the lad he'd sold it to years earlier (same copy) he'd got it off Barrie Waddington.

 

That  was a good night at Burnley, long time now, but having Rod Shard, Guy H, Big Mel, Salmon, Mickey Cruise among many others under one roof was a blast.

[Ernie Andrews]

I'm seriously amazed! A complaint on Soul Source about a record that's suddenly catching attention because it's selling for massive multiples of it's original price?????

 

OK, I agree in principle. Now will everyone on Soul Source who I've ever sold records to over the last 40 years please return them and I'll refund everyone the original price I charged? Yep, that will make it OK with me at least and I'll think much better of the people in question. 

 

Ian D 

Yes Ian - but were not talking about a record that cost £10 in 1977 and is now £500 were talking of a record  jumping up a lot In a relative short space of time compared to something moving price with demand and past sales over a 35 year time period and IMO it comes down to overhyping because less & less good newies are being found.

[Quinvy]

It was definitely "known" in Burnley, or Colne , I heard it off Brad, who played it to me after getting it back off the lad he'd sold it to years earlier (same copy) he'd got it off Barrie Waddington.

 

That  was a good night at Burnley, long time now, but having Rod Shard, Guy H, Big Mel, Salmon, Mickey Cruise among many others under one roof was a blast.

Brad is a legend mate. I got the first Chandlers off him in the 70's. he didn't think it would go because of the slow break in the middle.

[Tony Smith]

Yes Ian - but were not talking about a record that cost £10 in 1977 and is now £500 were talking of a record  jumping up a lot In a relative short space of time compared to something moving price with demand and past sales over a 35 year time period and IMO it comes down to overhyping because less & less good newies are being found.

But it happens all the time Steve, it always has done, records get hot, I wish I could've held on to records that went bigger later!

Edited September 4, 2013 by Tony Smith