Bootleg Rarer Then The Original ?

[Glynthornhill]

Interesting Pete - it's just sold at asking price - you just can't predict it can ya

 

Had some inflation busting prices for them recently.

 

Seen a Mel Britt boot go for almost £100 being one of the stand out shocks....

 

Wish I could find a box of 400 pressings from the 70's sometimes the amount of times I get asked for them , and the growing prices they achieve.

 

Maybe we should concentrate on that instead of shuffling round trying to sell ovo     

[Grayman45]

Me, I buy loads, I sold all mine and I miss them so I'm buying them again - just my favourite records sort of thing - plus I buy all the Outasite reissues as well.  At least I've got something I can play.

 

So you're the one . . . Seriously though, in these days of mp3's, I'd have thought that would be the preferred format for anyone thats not collecting originals. I know there's an argument for owning vinyl.

[Souljazera]

Which design - never heard of this, ever. Only the red label one.

 

Think the Lillie Bryant is red Pete...will take a look havent seen it for some time...some fool thought it was an original !

[Pete S]

So you're the one . . . Seriously though, in these days of mp3's, I'd have thought that would be the preferred format for anyone thats not collecting originals. I know there's an argument for owning vinyl.

 

Can't play mp3's on my record player mate. Or my decks.  I've got 50,000+ mp3's, they don't mean a thing.  A record is a record and vinyl means everything.

[Guest]

Can't play mp3's on my record player mate. Or my decks.  I've got 50,000+ mp3's, they don't mean a thing.  A record is a record and vinyl means everything.

There`s just something captivating and mysterious about owning the vinyl....no matter what condition there`s always a long lost story behind them,

 

You don`t get this from an MP3!

 

 

[dthedrug]

Can't play mp3's on my record player mate. Or my decks.  I've got 50,000+ mp3's, they don't mean a thing.  A record is a record and vinyl means everything.

 HI ALL...I REMEMBER A FEW YEARS AGO, WOLVES RECORD FAIR, PETE showed me a dealer who was selling cheap TROJAN BOX SETS, we bot got about 10 sets, the CD's are still unopened sitting on a shelf, yet my records get played every day,  DAVE K

[Grayman45]

Can't play mp3's on my record player mate. Or my decks.  I've got 50,000+ mp3's, they don't mean a thing.  A record is a record and vinyl means everything.

 

I know where you are coming from. We could open up a whole new can of worms here. BVO - booted vinyl only.

[dthedrug]

Me, I buy loads, I sold all mine and I miss them so I'm buying them again - just my favourite records sort of thing - plus I buy all the Outasite reissues as well.  At least I've got something I can play.

 HI ALL....Pete as you are well aware of how reluctant I am with letting records go, even in the tough times, a box of 350 boots from 72-76 is more than a valuation price, as there are so many memories associated with these pressing, most people who were on the scene 35 years ago have their fave pressings that they would rate at a higher value of worth, and it is this nostalgic value that made me not to sell, can you imagine today if I had sold up, what changes of note would be the long term effects would I be feeling today without them,

This is not in anyway a critics of dealers and my reference to Pete is, he was the only person I trusted at the time,  DAVE K

[Grayman45]

Might be slightly off topic here. Freddy Butler - That's When I Need You. Am I right in saying this was an album track? In which case, does that make the later issued single collectable?

[Pete S]

Might be slightly off topic here. Freddy Butler - That's When I Need You. Am I right in saying this was an album track? In which case, does that make the later issued single collectable?

 

That's a very seldom seen bootleg nowadays. I'd ask £25 for that one.

[Grayman45]

That's a very seldom seen bootleg nowadays. I'd ask £25 for that one.

 

Ha ha, you saw right through me!

[Pete S]

Ha ha, you saw right through me!

 

I did? 

I think there were only 300 of these pressed. Not had one for a while now.  I don't like either side, funnily enough 

[Soul-slider]

Me neither Pete, there could have been a better couple from that LP.

 

Is Eddie Parker on Awake (70's press) the most sought after boot? (I have it but the fu....g postie's broke it in half, it still plays and it's held together by duct tape!)

[Grayman45]

Me neither Pete, there could have been a better couple from that LP.

 

Is Eddie Parker on Awake (70's press) the most sought after boot? (I have it but the fu....g postie's broke it in half, it still plays and it's held together by duct tape!)

 

There's one on Mr Manship's site for a silly price.

[Pete S]

Me neither Pete, there could have been a better couple from that LP.

 

Is Eddie Parker on Awake (70's press) the most sought after boot? (I have it but the fu....g postie's broke it in half, it still plays and it's held together by duct tape!)

 

Yeah it certainly sells for good money, I sold mine for £40 when they repressed it on Ashford for a fiver...

[Guest Brett F]

But any boot is a faux pressing and in as much meaningless, its only value is amongst the total idiotic and un educated who wish too buy such false items, it's an old argument, but if you were asked to play a DJ spot at say the 100 club...would you be comfortable bringing your boots...( this is a imaginary situation, because Ady, and co would never invite such a false prophet..but my point remains ! )

[Premium Stuff]

But any boot is a faux pressing and in as much meaningless, its only value is amongst the total idiotic and un educated who wish too buy such false items, it's an old argument, but if you were asked to play a DJ spot at say the 100 club...would you be comfortable bringing your boots...( this is a imaginary situation, because Ady, and co would never invite such a false prophet..but my point remains ! )

But there are many shades of greyness here - below the accolade of playing at the 100 club - which is where people in other places start to go wrong.

 

I would never play a bootleg record to an audience - and struggle to understand why anyone worth their salt would do so 

 

Cheers

 

Richard

Edited September 12, 2013 by Premium Stuff

[Grayman45]

But any boot is a faux pressing and in as much meaningless, its only value is amongst the total idiotic and un educated who wish too buy such false items, it's an old argument, but if you were asked to play a DJ spot at say the 100 club...would you be comfortable bringing your boots...( this is a imaginary situation, because Ady, and co would never invite such a false prophet..but my point remains ! )

 

I think it's a bit harsh calling people idiotic and uneducated, just for buying a piece of vinyl they can afford, with a fantastic tune on it.

[Premium Stuff]

I think it's a bit harsh calling people idiotic and uneducated, just for buying a piece of vinyl they can afford, with a fantastic tune on it.

 

Yes, maybe harsh - but passionate - and the point is maybe boots have their place - like home listening - but not when you are DJ-ing to a room full of people and they have paid good money to hear you play - and most of them think your boots are originals 

[Grayman45]

Yes, maybe harsh - but passionate - and the point is maybe boots have their place - like home listening - but not when you are DJ-ing to a room full of people and they have paid good money to hear you play - and most of them think your boots are originals 

 

Can't argue with that. Even if I could, I wouldn't dare open that can of worms.

[Pete S]

I think it's a bit harsh calling people idiotic and uneducated, just for buying a piece of vinyl they can afford, with a fantastic tune on it.

 

So do I.  F*cking rude as well.

[Guest Brett F]

Well it may be rude but the selling and buying of counterfeit goods is illegal.. This link could help folks who have bought illegal goods from somebody, plus you should be able to claim your money back .. The link is from Action Fraud Police Web Site....

https://www.actionfraud.police.uk/fraud_protection/counterfeit_goods

[Pete S]

Well it may be rude but the selling and buying of counterfeit goods is illegal.. This link could help folks who have bought illegal goods from somebody, plus you should be able to claim your money back .. The link is from Action Fraud Police Web Site....

https://www.actionfraud.police.uk/fraud_protection/counterfeit_goods

 

There's a big difference between bootlegs and counterfeits. Counterfeits are made to deceive. Bootlegs are just, well, bootlegs, everyone knows what they are.  People have various reasons for buying bootlegs and reissues.  I buy them because I sold all my originals and still like to play records now and again.  If that's a crime, or if that makes me idiotic and uneducated, throw on the cuffs and lock me up...though not sure how I can be uneducated towards these things as I could tell you how 99% of all of them differ from the originals without looking..

[Guest Brett F]

There's a big difference between bootlegs and counterfeits. Counterfeits are made to deceive. Bootlegs are just, well, bootlegs, everyone knows what they are. People have various reasons for buying bootlegs and reissues. I buy them because I sold all my originals and still like to play records now and again. If that's a crime, or if that makes me idiotic and uneducated, throw on the cuffs and lock me up...though not sure how I can be uneducated towards these things as I could tell you how 99% of all of them differ from the originals without looking..

No bootlegs are counterfeit.. No grey area, it's not that hard, one is real one is not, I'm no devils advocate, I just state the legal and very true aspect..plus I really could care less what people buy, I'm just stating what is an honest and true reflection of the legal standing on such issues.. Continue to buy counterfeit goods I'm not the law my opinion is not relevant .. But the makers of such rules judge it very, very differently .

[Pete S]

No bootlegs are counterfeit.. No grey area, it's not that hard, one is real one is not, I'm no devils advocate, I just state the legal and very true aspect..plus I really could care less what people buy, I'm just stating what is an honest and true reflection of the legal standing on such issues.. Continue to buy counterfeit goods I'm not the law my opinion is not relevant .. But the makers of such rules judge it very, very differently .

 

Brett, a counterfeit is a different thing to a bootleg.  A counterfeit is made to look like an original in order to extract money from a mug punter.  A bootleg is an illegal copy of something.  They are both illegal, but there is a big difference between a bootleg record and a counterfeit record.  

[Guest Brett F]

Brett, a counterfeit is a different thing to a bootleg. A counterfeit is made to look like an original in order to extract money from a mug punter. A bootleg is an illegal copy of something. They are both illegal, but there is a big difference between a bootleg record and a counterfeit record.

Ok Pete.. Whatever ... I'll have my opinion you have yours . Good night .

[Pete S]

Ok Pete.. Whatever ... I'll have my opinion you have yours . Good night .

 

It's not an opinion, it's a fact!

• Piracy is the unauthorised copying of an original recording for profit. Pirated products will often have a different package than the original product and will often take the form of previously non-existing compilations.

• Bootlegging is the recording of live or broadcast performances without the permission of the performers, songwriters or the record company which are then copied and sold.

• Counterfeiting is the copying and packaging as closely as possible of the original product with the use of the trade marks and logos of the record label such that consumers are misled to believe that they are purchasing original product.

[Guest Brett F]

It's not an opinion, it's a fact!

• Piracy is the unauthorised copying of an original recording for profit. Pirated products will often have a different package than the original product and will often take the form of previously non-existing compilations.

• Bootlegging is the recording of live or broadcast performances without the permission of the performers, songwriters or the record company which are then copied and sold.

• Counterfeiting is the copying and packaging as closely as possible of the original product with the use of the trade marks and logos of the record label such that consumers are misled to believe that they are purchasing original product.

So my initial point is true one is real one is false and illegal... Glad you put it in such wonderful text .

[Back Street Blue]

So my initial point is true one is real one is false and illegal... Glad you put it in such wonderful text .

 

Not well up on intellectual property law.......but there' a difference between a copy made without the owners consent and a deliberate imitation designed to be "passed off" as an original, the latter being a counterfeit , the former is not a counterfeit.........so there is a significant difference "legally" speaking actually.

 

Can understand people paying full whack for original sounds being p*issed off with people dj'ing with pressings.......but as a kid with no money, I could only afford pressings and treasure the ones I've still got for sentimental reasons......and will play them at home with a clear conscience.

[Guest Brett F]

Not well up on intellectual property law.......but there' a difference between a copy made without the owners consent and a deliberate imitation designed to be "passed off" as an original, the latter being a counterfeit , the former is not a counterfeit.........so there is a significant difference "legally" speaking actually.

Can understand people paying full whack for original sounds being p*issed off with people dj'ing with pressings.......but as a kid with no money, I could only afford pressings and treasure the ones I've still got for sentimental reasons......and will play them at home with a clear conscience.

My last word on this ( yawn) you tell the label owner, artist, musician, that any other copy of their record is legitimate without them knowing and being paid for such a right, Jesus the ignorance of this forum at times is close to a kindergarten ... Buy all the boots, counterfeits and illegal copies of some persons long forgotten and genuine work and rest happy ...

[Ljblanken]

But there are many shades of greyness here - below the accolade of playing at the 100 club - which is where people in other places start to go wrong.

 

I would never play a bootleg record to an audience - and struggle to understand why anyone worth their salt would do so 

 

Cheers

 

Richard

 

i play re-issues/boots to audiences - i think it depends on the situation. let me explain:

 

you guys (in england) use OVO rules to sort out the "cream of the crop" DJs... and that makes sense for a couple of reasons:

- the audience is very knowledgable of the music

- if you allow boots/reissues, then anyone can play anything (and almost anyone in the crowd could get up and DJ)

- the audience pays to get in - and the DJ gets paid

 

i don't always play OVO (although i do when i can) here in california for the opposite reasons:

- the audience are casual (uninformed) soul fans (so, if i don't play my re-issue of "7 day lover" they will NEVER be exposed to that song) - there are no other DJs who own the orginal around here - or even spin soul music (so i am not upstaging/undermining a DJ who paid 5,000 for a huge tune)

- they don't pay to get in and i don't get paid to spin (i run the nights myself, provide my own PA system, pay for flyers/ads etc - all out of my own pocket)

- i don't have a CD player or computer (only turntables) - so i need the boot/reissue vinyl to play the music  

 

...anyway that's my justification for getting boots of great songs that i just can't afford

[Guest penny]

I think it's a bit harsh calling people idiotic and uneducated, just for buying a piece of vinyl they can afford, with a fantastic tune on it.

On the contrary, buying a fake item which is even on an inconvenient redundant format for £10 in order to free ride on the credibility of genuine record collecting is terrible value and precisely idiotic.

It's not evil and no one gets hurt I suppose, it's just a bit wank.

[Back Street Blue]

My last word on this ( yawn) you tell the label owner, artist, musician, that any other copy of their record is legitimate without them knowing and being paid for such a right, Jesus the ignorance of this forum at times is close to a kindergarten ... Buy all the boots, counterfeits and illegal copies of some persons long forgotten and genuine work and rest happy ...

 

ignorance takes many shapes and forms

[Guest Brett F]

ignorance takes many shapes and forms

Which you so succinctly have applied ....

[Guest]

:sleep3: :sleep3: :sleep3:

[Pete S]

Which you so succinctly have applied ....

 

The bloke you are arguing with is a lawyer by profession so I think he probably knows a bit more about the law than you do

[Guest]

turning into another boring OVO debate can it please be locked

[Back Street Blue]

Which you so succinctly have applied ....

      ...............................Fin

[Guest penny]

The bloke you are arguing with is a lawyer by profession so I think he probably knows a bit more about the law than you do

Does he know that bootlegs are legal then?!

Come on, the legal issue is only a small part of it, there are plenty of laws that none of us give a fuck about. The fact is that bootlegs just aren't cool and, with the odd exception like pete, who seems to buy them to satisfy some complex emotional nostalgia trip, they are bought by people who want to pretend to be collectors, most likely in order to dj cos it gets them some attention, but really just cant be arsed to put the hard work in, but are happy for, in fact, need others to do exactly the work they arent willing to do!

On top of that, they DO appeal to a buyer who would otherwise likely buy a legitimate reissue, if it came out.

There's no good side to their existance, something even rats and slugs can claim. And yes it's tedious to continue to recycle this argument but if people keep celebrating this completely crap phenomenon, it will continue to be addressed.

I understand them in a 60s - 80s context, when average buyers would only have record players, and I understand the relevance of these old pressings to the history of the scene, but that's not why people are buying them today ...is it?

What's weird is people arguing passionately FOR fake, illegal, superfluous items then making out that those who object are the cranks...

Edited September 14, 2013 by penny

[pogo paul]

My last word on this ( yawn) you tell the label owner, artist, musician, that any other copy of their record is legitimate without them knowing and being paid for such a right, Jesus the ignorance of this forum at times is close to a kindergarten ... Buy all the boots, counterfeits and illegal copies of some persons long forgotten and genuine work and rest happy ...

How many original artists get any money from the sales of their unknown discs they cut in the sixties.When they sell for huge amounts how much do they get?

Puts it into perspective. So what if someone wants to pay £10 for a £1000 record, the artist still won't get anything.

The only exception,to my knowledge, would be Ady, Kent Records, who has always played by the rule.

[Guest Brett F]

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[Guest Brett F]

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[Guest Brett F]

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[Guest Brett F]

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[Godzilla]

How many original artists get any money from the sales of their unknown discs they cut in the sixties.When they sell for huge amounts how much do they get?

Puts it into perspective. So what if someone wants to pay £10 for a £1000 record, the artist still won't get anything.

The only exception,to my knowledge, would be Ady, Kent Records, who has always played by the rule.

There are loads of other labels that "play by the rule"  -  BGP, Numero, Soul-Jazz, Stones throw, Jazzman, Luv n Haight to name a few.

[Guest Brett F]

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Edited September 14, 2013 by Brett F

[Guest Brett F]

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[pogo paul]

There are loads of other labels that "play by the rule"  -  BGP, Numero, Soul-Jazz, Stones throw, Jazzman, Luv n Haight to name a few.

Thats why i said 'to my knowledge' thanks for the info

Not at all championing boots,esp. lookalikes,been ripped off myself,

Much prefer a legit re-issue

[Guest Brett F]

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Edited September 14, 2013 by Brett F

[Guest Brett F]

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Edited September 13, 2013 by Brett F