Bootleg Rarer Then The Original ?

[Guest miff]

Lots of threads on issues and demos rarity, got me thinking on this question, I know we are a ovo based lot but in other scenes bootlegs a sought after'just wondered if ther is any rare sought after boots.

[Cunnie]

Seen more original copy's of the Pages - Heartaches & Pain than bootlegs.
 

Sure there are plenty more examples as most original records were aimed at a very large market but the bootlegs were aimed at a very limited 'Northern scene' market.

[Sebastian]

Seen more original copy's of the Pages - Heartaches & Pain than bootlegs.

 

Really? The original is very rare in my experience. The bootleg is sometimes sold as being the real deal.

[Kevinkent]

Haven't seen many copies of the Del-larks.. Job Opening.. Queen City boot, nor of Jackie Day .. Naughty Boy on Soul Spin(?).

Then again, I wouldn't expect to, and maybe they're just spun at home and don't see the light of day (like mine).

- Kev

Edited August 26, 2013 by KevinKent

[Soul Shrews]

Eddie Daniels "Is He Better Than Me"  ?

 

Cheers Paul

[Cunnie]

Really? The original is very rare in my experience. The bootleg is sometimes sold as being the real deal.

Yes really Sebastian. Were relatively easy to pick up when it first started getting played & was probably bootlegged too early to have much impact sales wise. 

[selectadisc]

Barbara McNeir on TAMTOWN.I believe only 300 pressed in 1978. Manships guide to boots says " Great looking bootleg. Resembles the early Tamla/Motown striped label. Top quality sound....now highly collectable and is harder to find than the original"

[Premium Stuff]

Barbara McNeir on TAMTOWN.I believe only 300 pressed in 1978. Manships guide to boots says " Great looking bootleg. Resembles the early Tamla/Motown striped label. Top quality sound....now highly collectable and is harder to find than the original"

 

I have one of those - and was strangely thinking about posting up something about it - other side is Spellbound an unreleased Motown thing which I think was credited on the disc to the Vandellas, without checking.

 

Might sell mine if anyone is interested - please just PM me.

 

Cheers

 

Richard

[dthedrug]

 HI ALL....The subject of BOOTLEGS on the RARE SOUL SCENE is a passion of mine,  As the subject matter goes hand in hand with the history of the RARE SOUL & NORTHERN SOUL SCENE in GREAT BRITAIN,  

Can I strongly recommend MANSHIPS GUIDE ON BOOTLEGS as a must have aid if you are getting serious about collecting, or you have the chance of buying a collection,  

Over the many years that I have been on the scene, I have yet to meet anyone who has not bought a BOOTLEG at some time, and it must not be forgotten, the BOOTLEGS that were issued in the mid 7t's satisfied the vast number of regulars who attended All-nighters just to have a great night dancing the night away, with the right people, SOUL PEOPLE,

BOOTLEGS for most of us were the only realistic way to own certain records, one good example is the great dancer that SAM WARD gave us with his "SISTER LEE" GROOVE CITY RECORDS, a rare record back then and still in 2013 just if not rarer, have you got a original copy? it seems even top collector NEIL RUSHTON had the copy write to issue it, but lacked a scan of the original for the cover of a great LP.

This maybe the reason that the record does not get many plays today, DJ spinning a BOOTLEG?

Out of the many hundreds of BOOTLEGS knocking about, the ORIGANAL copy is still the copy to own, and only a handful of these are collectable to-day, these are the ones that come out from 67 to 73,

As mentioned we have all had a few boot's in our collection, the odd "OUT OF THE PAST/OOTP" 45 & a "SOUL SOUNDS" 45, However how many of you have the complete run of the 45's DOBIE GRAY OUT ON THE FLOOR & CHUBBY CHECKERS DISCOTEQUE are much rarer than the US copies, and the white label copies of the SOUL SOUNDS LABEL are in my opinion the rarest of all BOOTLEGS,

However I have what I believe to be the rarest BOOTLEG of importance to the scenes history, but I have also always considered that ADY CROSDALE had a real rare item with his white label copy of SAM NESBITTS "BLACK MOTHER GOOSE" the record was meant to have been a future SOUL CITY release for DAVE GODIN, however as much as DAVE loved the record, my logic states that a copy of CHRIS JACKSON SOUL CITY120 must also exist, the mystery over the record will continue for as long as the scene or until a copy turns up, so if it is a BOOTLEG it must be the rarest of them all, and equal to the rare US copy

Only a month ago I wrote to JOHN MANSHIP about the early BOOTLEGS that are on UK pressed vinyl and how they should be included in the COLLECTORS GUIDE TO UK SOUL vol2, which is long overdue, and I mentioned my copy of the TAMS "HEY GIRL DON'T BOTHE ME" B/W CHUBBY CHECKERS "DISCOTEQUE" 45, Pressed with a reversed label showing MANCHEST UNITED 45,

Now compared with the top original US released soul, my 45 means little, but as a part of the scenes evolution it's priceless  DAVE K 

[stokesoulboy]

 HI ALL....The subject of BOOTLEGS on the RARE SOUL SCENE is a passion of mine,  As the subject matter goes hand in hand with the history of the RARE SOUL & NORTHERN SOUL SCENE in GREAT BRITAIN,  

Can I strongly recommend MANSHIPS GUIDE ON BOOTLEGS as a must have aid if you are getting serious about collecting, or you have the chance of buying a collection,  

Over the many years that I have been on the scene, I have yet to meet anyone who has not bought a BOOTLEG at some time, and it must not be forgotten, the BOOTLEGS that were issued in the mid 7t's satisfied the vast number of regulars who attended All-nighters just to have a great night dancing the night away, with the right people, SOUL PEOPLE,

BOOTLEGS for most of us were the only realistic way to own certain records, one good example is the great dancer that SAM WARD gave us with his "SISTER LEE" GROOVE CITY RECORDS, a rare record back then and still in 2013 just if not rarer, have you got a original copy? it seems even top collector NEIL RUSHTON had the copy write to issue it, but lacked a scan of the original for the cover of a great LP.

This maybe the reason that the record does not get many plays today, DJ spinning a BOOTLEG?

Out of the many hundreds of BOOTLEGS knocking about, the ORIGANAL copy is still the copy to own, and only a handful of these are collectable to-day, these are the ones that come out from 67 to 73,

As mentioned we have all had a few boot's in our collection, the odd "OUT OF THE PAST/OOTP" 45 & a "SOUL SOUNDS" 45, However how many of you have the complete run of the 45's DOBIE GRAY OUT ON THE FLOOR & CHUBBY CHECKERS DISCOTEQUE are much rarer than the US copies, and the white label copies of the SOUL SOUNDS LABEL are in my opinion the rarest of all BOOTLEGS,

However I have what I believe to be the rarest BOOTLEG of importance to the scenes history, but I have also always considered that ADY CROSDALE had a real rare item with his white label copy of SAM NESBITTS "BLACK MOTHER GOOSE" the record was meant to have been a future SOUL CITY release for DAVE GODIN, however as much as DAVE loved the record, my logic states that a copy of CHRIS JACKSON SOUL CITY120 must also exist, the mystery over the record will continue for as long as the scene or until a copy turns up, so if it is a BOOTLEG it must be the rarest of them all, and equal to the rare US copy

Only a month ago I wrote to JOHN MANSHIP about the early BOOTLEGS that are on UK pressed vinyl and how they should be included in the COLLECTORS GUIDE TO UK SOUL vol2, which is long overdue, and I mentioned my copy of the TAMS "HEY GIRL DON'T BOTHE ME" B/W CHUBBY CHECKERS "DISCOTEQUE" 45, Pressed with a reversed label showing MANCHEST UNITED 45,

Now compared with the top original US released soul, my 45 means little, but as a part of the scenes evolution it's priceless  DAVE K 

HT 1212A TAMS (2).jpgHT 1212B DISCOTEQUE (2).jpg

Was black mother goose going to be the first release on 444 label ??, love to see that

[dthedrug]

Was black mother goose going to be the first release on 444 label ??, love to see that

 HI ALL,, To be honest with you, the full story of the record is speculative, apart from the fact that it did exist as a UK pressed 45, I really have no reason to doubt the words of ADY, have you? not sure if the SOUL CITY connection come from ADY or DAVE,

If Ady is about he may help you with the answer, however CHRIS JACKSONS SOULCITY120  was advertised in BLUES & SOUL I will have to dig out the copy of B&S to show the advert, however it was to be pressed by CBS, a move away from PHILLIPS FONTANA ISLAND RECORDS, That as I wrote in the SOUL CITY THREAD, Put the nail in the coffin of SOUL CITY,

As we no that the CHRISS JACKSON SC120 only exists on a 444 acetate & I have owned a further CHRIS JACKSON ACCITATE,

Until the SAM NESBITT 45, turns up, and we can determine the pressing plant as either FONTANA or CBS, which I doubt, we can't state that it is a SOUL CITY intended release or another rare BOOTLEG,,

As I stated if only we could find the record, we will no for certain, until then it's goes down as a romantic story, but the evidence states that it is not a 444 release, or does it?    

[stokesoulboy]

The whole bootleg side of things is very interesting, bjd,greenlight soul sounds etc, but also a few unusual 7's pop up every now and then, i have a soul power walter jackson with billy butler flip that looks almost hand made, yet pressed in the uk !!, got to love em, and part n parcel of the scene, frequently frowned upon, yet so important   keep smiling

[Dave Pinch]

Lenny Curtis is another one. The orig issue is way commoner than the 70s boot as a white demo

[Souljazera]

Lenny Curtis is another one. The orig issue is way commoner than the 70s boot as a white demo

 

Anyone need the LENNY CURTIS boot i have one for sale..bought in the late 70's played 3/4 times

[Premium Stuff]

 

... one good example is the great dancer that SAM WARD gave us with his "SISTER LEE" GROOVE CITY RECORDS, a rare record back then and still in 2013 just if not rarer, have you got a original copy? it seems even top collector NEIL RUSHTON had the copy write to issue it, but lacked a scan of the original for the cover of a great LP.

 

 

Yes thanks 

 

Richard

[dthedrug]

Yes thanks 

 

Richard

 HI ALL  Richard I was going to reply prove it! or your point is? however as you have a copy, do you agree with my statement? as just saying  yes! adds little to the debate, on BOOTLEGS, I like your reply, if we were talking in a pub, is it up for sale?  what is it's value today  DAVE K thanx

[Gigs]

I Noticed that the copy of Ben Aiken-Satisfied boot on out of the past blue is now more expensive than the loma wd in the current JM guide,can't be right can it?not sure about being rarer though?

[Premium Stuff]

 HI ALL  Richard I was going to reply prove it! or your point is? however as you have a copy, do you agree with my statement? as just saying  yes! adds little to the debate, on BOOTLEGS, I like your reply, if we were talking in a pub, is it up for sale?  what is it's value today  DAVE K thanx

 

Pretty rare I think Dave. Not sure on current value of "Sister Lee" but it is a tough one. Manship's Guide has it at £750 - but in good nick on an auction I could see it go higher.

 

JM also values the blue bootleg at £20 and the cream one at £25. Always preferred the look of the cream label boot to the original for some reason - not sure why.

 

Interesting your comment about the cream label bootleg on that LP cover. Was it called Detroit A-Go-Go?

 

Could well be that they used the bootleg pic because they didn't have an original to hand. On that LP they also used the orange Detroit Executives rather than the green one - maybe the same reason?

 

Cheers

 

Richard

Edited August 27, 2013 by Premium Stuff

[pikeys dog]

Benny Johnson - Stop Me - Today.

 

Was booted on another label, then hundreds of originals turned up.

[Agentsmith]

Eddie Daniels "Is He Better Than Me"  ?

 

Cheers Paul

why has nobody commented on this?...now that's something i have never seen so i have to ask is this a case of a boot looking identical to the original, which IS megabucks?...besides which, a truly great tune anyway and,....one that should be spun at the various up & coming wigan tributes as, quote me if i'm wrong, it was a late era ricardo tune.....then again, it depends if any of the roster of djs who played there, actually own a copy and if so, more importantly if its not already in their playboxes, can they dig it out of their vast collections?...40th anniversaries DON'T necessarily have be about the obvious & blatently predictable.

[Soul-slider]

I have Candi Staton 'Upper Hand' on one of those 70's acetates, had it years. Worth anything?

[Guest Awake 502]

Always remember Eddie Daniels as a Cleethorpes tune, didn't last long at the time as it was bootlegged too soon.... Yes I still have mine..

Edited August 27, 2013 by Awake 502

[dthedrug]

Pretty rare I think Dave. Not sure on current value of "Sister Lee" but it is a tough one. Manship's Guide has it at £750 - but in good nick on an auction I could see it go higher.

 

JM also values the blue bootleg at £20 and the cream one at £25. Always preferred the look of the cream label boot to the original for some reason - not sure why.

 

Interesting your comment about the cream label bootleg on that LP cover. Was it called Detroit A-Go-Go?

 

Could well be that they used the bootleg pic because they didn't have an original to hand. On that LP they also used the orange Detroit Executives rather than the green one - maybe the same reason?

 

Cheers

 

Richard

 HI ALL..... Yes indeed DETROIT A GO GO, it was Rich, I agree with you about the cream bootleg, I have a box of 72 - 76 BOOTLEGS, and in my opinion I would put more value on them, than any of these so called reissues that flood the pages on Ebay with the BUY IT NOW TAG, why anyone would buy them just goes over my head, I wonder if anyone has a full set? apart from the people selling them, I don't no, but have they done a SISTER LEE, GETTING BACK ON SUBJECT the value John puts on the record is a bit low, the same goes for "THE UPPER HAND" How many people have ad that one, and again the BOOTLEG is always worth picking up, my last copy had a edge warp when I sold it at KEELE, even so that copy fetches £600 worth every penny as you just never see it, both records are real gems to own, and it would not bother me if a DJ played the BOOLEG if you have owned a original in the past,  DAVE K

[Pete S]

Lenny Curtis is another one. The orig issue is way commoner than the 70s boot as a white demo

 

Dave - come on now.

[Pete S]

I Noticed that the copy of Ben Aiken-Satisfied boot on out of the past blue is now more expensive than the loma wd in the current JM guide,can't be right can it?not sure about being rarer though?

 

That's a printing mistake, it's worth 10 - 15 quid.

[Pete S]

I have Candi Staton 'Upper Hand' on one of those 70's acetates, had it years. Worth anything?

 

No not if it's on an acetate, sorry!  

[Simsy]

Probably easier to locate an original of Victor Kinght - Chinatown, than the pressing.

[JOE TORQUAY]

hi,

could anyone give me some info on this one,

i've had it for about 9 years, it was the only way i could afford justin jones,

i was told when i bought it it was a very limited issue ( 50 to 100 ) on the 10th anniversary of club in hamburg, this would make it quite a rare one to have.

joe.

Attachments_2013828(1).zip

Attachments_2013828.zip

Edited August 28, 2013 by JOE TORQUAY

[Dave Pinch]

Dave - come on now.

deadly serious Pete. Orig turns up quite often and I can't believe the money it fetches. Glad I got one cheap years ago.. I never seam to see the 70s white demo bootleg. I know its been booted since a couple o times

[Guest turntableterra]

Eddie Daniels "Is He Better Than Me"  ?

 

Cheers Paul

ive seen these originals but never a boot even though I knew one existed

[Dave Pinch]

Do the Eddie Daniels boots have p.b on. Seen 2 or 3 of these over the years

[Soul Shrews]

Yes Dave PB in run out means boot (on boots )

 

Cheers Paul

[Dave Pinch]

Thought so Paul. Can't say I've had an original in my hands

[Souljazera]

Lillie Bryant look a like on Tayster from same period along with Little Joe Romans/Joe Matthews/Dena Barnes etc...

 

Not saying these are rarer than originals but very decent look a likes that would fool many from behind a deck !

Edited August 28, 2013 by souljazera

[Premium Stuff]

Mikki Farrow on Karate is a good fooler.

 

Probably really kept down the price of the original which is very rare IMO.

 

Even the boot fetches a decent price because of this.

 

Might have got that the wrong way round - as the original is obviously much rarer are more expensive than the boot - but the boot is not easy to pick up and is relatively expensive in itself - phew!   

 

Richard

Edited August 28, 2013 by Premium Stuff

[Davetay]

why has nobody commented on this?...now that's something i have never seen so i have to ask is this a case of a boot looking identical to the original, which IS megabucks?...besides which, a truly great tune anyway and,....one that should be spun at the various up & coming wigan tributes as, quote me if i'm wrong, it was a late era ricardo tune.....then again, it depends if any of the roster of djs who played there, actually own a copy and if so, more importantly if its not already in their playboxes, can they dig it out of their vast collections?...40th anniversaries DON'T necessarily have be about the obvious & blatently predictable.

Hi, you said correct you if you were wrong, so here goes. Eddie Daniels was one of the records sent over mid 70s by Simon not one of Richard's late era spins.

[Davetay]

Taking of rare boots, look no farther than my all time number one, (if it was done?) .                                                                                                          Linda Jones "I Just Can;t Live My Life" on Out Of The Past label.                                                                                                                                        It was listed at the time, but I have never seen one, someone told me it was done on a orange label?                                                                                     Any takers?                                                                                                                            

Edited August 29, 2013 by davetay

[dthedrug]

Taking of rare boots, look no farther than my all time number one, (if it was done?) .                                                                                                          Linda Jones "I Just Can;t Live My Life" on Out Of The Past label.                                                                                                                                        It was listed at the time, but I have never seen one, someone told me it was done on a orange label?                                                                                     Any takers?                                                                                                                            

 HI ALL... It would seem that the orange OUT OF THE PAST label, is more elusive than the mucky green, green & blue labels,

the 2 orange labels that I have are ISC-001-A  THE HUMAN BEINZ - NOBODY BUT ME, & ISC-118-B CARL DOUGLAS - SERVING A SENTENCE OF LIFE, (ISC stands for International Soul Club, Chris Burtons Promotions, Chris was the owner of the TORCH, TUNSTALL)

I'm not sure who picked the records for the label, I have assumed it was SIMON & KEITH? judging by the quality control of how the label was run, at the time.

I went out of my way to buy every release as a must have, all the 45s are classics and as I say the orange label is tuff, most people were unaware that the HUMAN BEINZ even come out or indeed the 1st on the label,

As to the LINDA JONES, I have never seen one, and it is a record that I associate with the BLACKPOOL MECCA, If it did come out it would have been on the white OOTP label, can't see it on the gap# ISC002/3/4, As it was still on the MECCA playlist.

I have 2 good memories about the label, 1) BLUES & SOUL CONTEMPO Record club, used to have a advert on the back inner page, listed about all the OOTP Releases, unaware that they were BOOTLEGS, a PISS TAKE if ever I saw one. 2) the LEEDS FESTIVAL ALL-NIGHTER 74, Has there been a better All-nighter? seeing a wall full of OOTP 45s,

If any one has info on any unreleased 45s or the existence of LINDA JONES post it up,  DAVE K

[Gene-r]

Barbara McNeir on TAMTOWN.I believe only 300 pressed in 1978. Manships guide to boots says " Great looking bootleg. Resembles the early Tamla/Motown striped label. Top quality sound....now highly collectable and is harder to find than the original"

 

I could have sworn they were pressed in 1983, because that's when I remember the boots flooding the market.  But, of course, I stand to be corrected!

[Md Records]

That 3 track E.P. with Lonette McKee, Justin Jones & Ric Martin - even at £10, is an expensive way of getting hold of a copy of Lonette McKee

 

Des

[Pete S]

I could have sworn they were pressed in 1983, because that's when I remember the boots flooding the market.  But, of course, I stand to be corrected!

 

You are correct Gene, 82 or 83.

[Pete S]

Lillie Bryant look a like on Tayster from same period along with Little Joe Romans/Joe Matthews/Dena Barnes etc...

 

Not saying these are rarer than originals but very decent look a likes that would fool many from behind a deck !

 

Which design - never heard of this, ever. Only the red label one.

[Pete S]

Mikki Farrow on Karate is a good fooler.

 

Probably really kept down the price of the original which is very rare IMO.

 

Even the boot fetches a decent price because of this.

 

Might have got that the wrong way round - as the original is obviously much rarer are more expensive than the boot - but the boot is not easy to pick up and is relatively expensive in itself - phew!   

 

Richard

 

Never understood why people get fooled by this, the vinyl is way thinner and more flexible on the original and it's machine stamped

[Glynthornhill]

That 3 track E.P. with Lonette McKee, Justin Jones & Ric Martin - even at £10, is an expensive way of getting hold of a copy of Lonette McKee

 

Des

 Lonette McKee  - had a box of 25 of her 45 on Sussex - was hard going getting rid over a period of three years - they varied from £3/ 5 never any more.

[Glynthornhill]

Yes thanks 

 

Richard

 

 HI ALL..... Yes indeed DETROIT A GO GO, it was Rich, I agree with you about the cream bootleg, I have a box of 72 - 76 BOOTLEGS, and in my opinion I would put more value on them, than any of these so called reissues that flood the pages on Ebay with the BUY IT NOW TAG, why anyone would buy them just goes over my head, I wonder if anyone has a full set? apart from the people selling them, I don't no, but have they done a SISTER LEE, GETTING BACK ON SUBJECT the value John puts on the record is a bit low, the same goes for "THE UPPER HAND" How many people have ad that one, and again the BOOTLEG is always worth picking up, my last copy had a edge warp when I sold it at KEELE, even so that copy fetches £600 worth every penny as you just never see it, both records are real gems to own, and it would not bother me if a DJ played the BOOLEG if you have owned a original in the past,  DAVE K

 

 

Not attempting to hijack thread but have a cream 70 's repro of Sister Lee up on tEbay - been there a few weeks - surprised it has no takers @ £25 - I think this is undervalued at that figure - not one I have had for sale too often in the last ten years anyhow .

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SAM-WARD-Sister-Lee-Groove-City-Cream-Repro-Label-70-s-/111149927238?pt=UK_Records&hash=item19e10d4b46

[Ian Seaman]

Eddie Foster on the multi coloured vinyl must be worth more then the real one ? same with the Manifesto multi coloured vinyl boot which is damn hard to find too 

 

Ian.

[Grayman45]

Not attempting to hijack thread but have a cream 70 's repro of Sister Lee up on tEbay - been there a few weeks - surprised it has no takers @ £25 - I think this is undervalued at that figure - not one I have had for sale too often in the last ten years anyhow .

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SAM-WARD-Sister-Lee-Groove-City-Cream-Repro-Label-70-s-/111149927238?pt=UK_Records&hash=item19e10d4b46

 

Speaking as someone on the verge of selling up, I'm intrigued to know who buys a boot nowadays. 

[Pete S]

Not attempting to hijack thread but have a cream 70 's repro of Sister Lee up on tEbay - been there a few weeks - surprised it has no takers @ £25 - I think this is undervalued at that figure - not one I have had for sale too often in the last ten years anyhow .

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SAM-WARD-Sister-Lee-Groove-City-Cream-Repro-Label-70-s-/111149927238?pt=UK_Records&hash=item19e10d4b46

 

Bit optimistic I think Glyn.  I'd ask £15 for that - £20 in mint maybe.

[Rupert]

Speaking as someone on the verge of selling up, I'm intrigued to know who buys a boot nowadays. 

 

lots of people buy boots on uk ebay , ive sold loads on there this year,

[Pete S]

Speaking as someone on the verge of selling up, I'm intrigued to know who buys a boot nowadays. 

 

Me, I buy loads, I sold all mine and I miss them so I'm buying them again - just my favourite records sort of thing - plus I buy all the Outasite reissues as well.  At least I've got something I can play.