Soul Source Grading System Not Working For Me

[Pete S]

The Soul Source Grading System guidelines in which there is no Excellent grade, just varying degrees of VG+.

In my opinion this has just not worked, which is why I refused to follow it and stick to my own gradings which include EX.  There is a big leap from VG to Mint.  I said if you did not have an EX grade people would regard the various stages of VG as being poorer condition records and I honestly think that seeing all these VG++ records is putting people off buying.  It certainly does with me anyway.  I've no idea why this idea was approved, we do not use Goldmine gradings in the UK, the standard grading is via Record Collector magazines grading system of P/F/G/VG/EX/M and variations upon that.

Like I say, just my opinion, but the idea is to make life easier for buyer and seller, not to cloud the issue with multiple plus signs.

[Hammersoul]

Personally i like/use  the vg/mint  grade,sadly some sellers either are too busy and get it wrong or try and pull a fast one or there tone deaf and don`t hear crackles    .

 

Have to say Pete  your ex is my mint minus  ,Just a shame you don`t find enough of my wants  . I`ve found a lot of the uk sellers/collectors  on here undergrade as a rule,i`ve had vg+ which play/look mint and i leave that in feedback to help out other collectors.

 

For me vg++ should mean it`s been played but plays mint with a few scuff marks or not .Think that would be ex to you??.

[sepia]

have to say I use EX a lot.

 

to me that say's 1 or 2 marks on label/vinyl that stops it being m-.

 

now & then use EX- if theres a couple more of the above or EX+ if less of than above. 

 

I use vg++ when it has lots of fine scratches/scuffs & dirty label,wol,sticker etc,but plays great.

 

vg+ lots more marks,but still enjoyable.

 

vg even more,but plays ok.

 

good thing is,i also use scans & mp3's so you can hear & see what your buying,lol.

[Hammersoul]

have to say I use EX a lot.

 

to me that say's 1 or 2 marks on label/vinyl that stops it being m-.

 

now & then use EX- if theres a couple more of the above or EX+ if less of than above. 

 

I use vg++ when it has lots of fine scratches/scuffs & dirty label,wol,sticker etc,but plays great.

 

vg+ lots more marks,but still enjoyable.

 

vg even more,but plays ok.

 

good thing is,i also use scans & mp3's so you can hear & see what your buying,lol.

  Hi Steve,

 

Your another who is spot on with your gradings,your ex is my vg++  .

 

Hope your well fella?

 

P.s we won`t mention the footie last night  

[sepia]

  Hi Steve,

 

Your another who is spot on with your gradings,your ex is my vg++  .

 

Hope your well fella?

 

P.s we won`t mention the footie last night  

how do mate,im fine thanks wayne.

 

I didn't mind the score,best weve played in a long long time.

 

see you's in the next world cup,lol.

[Mach]

agree, big gap imho between vg++ and mint, i seldom buy a vg++  but  will buy Ex without hesitation.

althought some sellers vg++ are really nice condition others are dire

[sepia]

its packing I worry about more.

 

I pack them & think that's fine.

 

I keep handling it to make sure,then I get scalpel out,reopen it & shove another bit of cardboard in it,lol.

 

better safe than sorry.

[Mach]

its packing I worry about more.

 

I pack them & think that's fine.

 

I keep handling it to make sure,then I get scalpel out,reopen it & shove another bit of cardboard in it,lol.

 

better safe than sorry.

same here, i have nightmares, when i see the post guy collect the sack from my p.o. and he drags it outside and down the concrete steps, and im just hoping my record aint at the bottom of the sack

[Steve L]

agree, big gap imho between vg++ and mint, i seldom buy a vg++  but  will buy Ex without hesitation.

althought some sellers vg++ are really nice condition others are dire

Yeah but a VG++ is the same as Ex if the site guidelines are used

Confusion reigns supreme   

[Pete S]

Yeah but a VG++ is the same as Ex if the site guidelines are used

Confusion reigns supreme   

 

But if it is - people are still going to see VG++ and automatically think that it is 'only' VG, if you see what I mean.

"to me that say's 1 or 2 marks on label/vinyl that stops it being m-."

from a post above, this is correct as far as I'm concerned.  VG already says it's flawed.  VG+ and VG++ say it's flawed, but not as badly as VG.  If you grade something as EX, it's just a small step down from M or M- but a long way above VG.

Confused?

[KevH]

Confusion indeed,and we've not touched on the subjective side,grading under light or not.... 

 

VG-,VG,VG+,..in some cases VG++ (if its been played and the label's a beauty.).EX,M-...is there anything else.?

Oh yes,G.Or as i call it Wall-art.

[Guest Andy Carling]

I work on a system where anything below Vg+ is crap and not worth buying.

Andy

[Steve L]

Confusion indeed,and we've not touched on the subjective side,grading under light or not.... 

 

VG-,VG,VG+,..in some cases VG++ (if its been played and the label's a beauty.).EX,M-...is there anything else.?

Oh yes,G.Or as i call it Wall-art.

or if its visual, audio or both?

What about people who use the EX grade, but have also Ex+, Ex++, Ex+++ and even EX++++   whats that all about?

Just buy M- records but then someones M- is VG+ to me so you cant win really

[Pete S]

or if its visual, audio or both?

What about people who use the EX grade, but have also Ex+, Ex++, Ex+++ and even EX++++   whats that all about?

Just buy M- records but then someones M- is VG+ to me so you cant win really

 

I think you can have an EX+ - the reason I use it is because I stopped using Mint, seeing as I play every record.  You can't have EX++ though, thats just daft.

[Chalky]

I work on a system where anything below Vg+ is crap and not worth buying.Andy

I've had some great buys described as vg.

[Dave Thorley]

What is the Soul Source grading system ???

 

I use the old american/ goldmine system. As this is the system I grew up with in the 70's. All these other additions of EX etc appeared in the 80's and to me have just added confusion

M, M-, VG+, VG, VG-, G+, G

So that gives you 7 levels of grading, how many do you need ???

Edited August 15, 2013 by Dave Thorley

[Pete S]

What is the Soul Source grading system ???

 

I use the old american/ goldmine system. As this is the system I grew up with in the 70's. All these other additions of EX etc appeared in the 80's and to me have just added confusion

M, M-, VG+, VG, VG-, G+, G

 

Same as the one you mention above.  The American system of grading. Record Collector started up in 1979, using EX as a grade, but I'm pretty sure they didn't invent it.  You only have to look in the small ads in Black Music to see records graded EXCELLENT and those are from 73-74-75.

[Dave Thorley]

Same as the one you mention above.  The American system of grading. Record Collector started up in 1979, using EX as a grade, but I'm pretty sure they didn't invent it.  You only have to look in the small ads in Black Music to see records graded EXCELLENT and those are from 73-74-75.

 

 

As always Pete I'll concede to your greater knowledge of UK mags. I've always purchased the greater number of my records from the U.S. and now days sell 60% of my records outside the UK. These gradings seem to be used more commonly internationally and as such are better for me and my customers to use.

Edited August 15, 2013 by Dave Thorley

[KevH]

Very good,or very good +,doesn't do some records justice.That's where EX is used inbetween VG and M-.

[Pete S]

As always Pete I'll concede to your greater knowledge of UK mags. I've always purchased the greater number of my records from the U.S. and now days sell 60% of my records outside the UK. These gradings seem to be used more commonly internationally and as such are better for me and my customers to use.

 

Once again though, I don't see how there can be no 'bridge' grade between VG and it's variants, and Mint.  Surely the purpose is to give the customer more information - by not using EX, I'd just be clouding things over and making life difficult for both me and them.

[Dave Thorley]

Once again though, I don't see how there can be no 'bridge' grade between VG and it's variants, and Mint.  Surely the purpose is to give the customer more information - by not using EX, I'd just be clouding things over and making life difficult for both me and them.

 

 

Pete, these gradings give 7 levels of grading if you can't find something in there and need more then fine add as many as you like.

 

 

• Mint (M)   Absolutely perfect in every way. Certainly never been played, possibly even still sealed.(More on still sealed under "Other Considerations"). Should be used sparingly as a grade, If at all.
• Near Mint (NM or M-)   A nearly perfect record. Many dealers won't give a grade higher than this implying (perhaps correctly)that no record is ever truly perfect.

  The record should show no obvious signs of wear. A 45 RPM or EP sleeve should have no more than the most minor defects, such as almost invisible ring wear or other signs of slight handling.

  An LP cover should have no creases, folds, seam splits or other noticeable similar defects. No cut-out holes, either. And of course, the same should be true of any other inserts, such as posters, lyric sleeves and the like.

  Basically, an LP in near mint condition looks as if you just got it home from a new record store and removed the shrink wrap.

  Near Mint is the highest price listed in all Goldmine price guides. Anything that exceeds this grade, in the opinion of both buyer and seller, is worth significantly more than the highest Goldmine book value.

• Very Good Plus (VG+)   Generally worth 50 percent of the Near Mint value.

  A Very Good Plus record will show some signs that it was played and otherwise handled by a previous owner who took good care of it.

  Record surfaces may show some signs of wear and may have slight scuffs or very light scratches that don't affect one's listening experiences. Slight warps that do not affect the sound are "OK".

  The label may have some ring wear or discoloration, but it should be barely noticeable. The center hole will not have been misshapen by repeated play.

  Picture sleeves and LP inner sleeves will have some slight wear, lightly turned up corners, or a slight seam split. An LP cover may have slight signs of wear also and may be marred by a cut-out hole, indentation or corner indicating it was taken out of print and sold at a discount.

  In general, if not for a couple things wrong with it, this would be Near Mint. All but the most mint-crazy collectors will find a Very Good Plus record highly acceptable.

• Very Good (VG)   Generally worth 25 percent of Near Mint value. Many of the defects found in a VG+ record will be more pronounced in a VG disc. Surface noise will be evident upon playing, especially in soft passages and during a song's intro and fade, but will not overpower the music otherwise. Groove wear will start to be noticeable, as with light scratches (deep enough to feel with a fingernail) that will affect the sound.

  Labels may be marred by writing, or have tape or stickers (or their residue) attached. The same will be true of picture sleeves or LP covers. However, it will not have all of these problems at the same time, only two or three of them.

  Goldmine price guides with more than one price will list Very Good as the lowest price. This, not the Near Mint price, should be your guide when determining how much a record is worth, as that is the price a dealer will normally pay you for a Near Mint record.

• Good (G), Good Plus (G+)   Generally worth 10-15 percent of the Near Mint value. Good does not mean Bad! A record in Good or Good Plus condition can be put onto a turntable and will play through without skipping. But it will have significant surface noise and scratches and visible groove wear (on a styrene record, the groove will be starting to turn white).

  A cover or sleeve will have seam splits, especially at the bottom or on the spine. Tape, writing, ring wear or other defects will start to overwhelm the object.

  It is a common item, you'll probably find another copy in better shape eventually. Pass it up. But, if it's something you have been seeking for years, and the price is right, get it...but keep looking to upgrade.

[Pete S]

Dave read back through the thread, you're missing my point, I am saying that when people SEE anything which begins with VG, whether it's VG+ or VG++ or whatever, they will automatically assume that it is a well used record and not in EXCELLENT condition.  People are not going to read through all that comprehensive grading stuff every time they want to buy a record, they'll see the title, see VG+ and say 'no thanks'.

Still not sure why I, being born in and lived in Britain all my life, and selling to 90% British people, should adopt the American style of grading...

Edited August 15, 2013 by Pete S

[Dave Thorley]

Dave read back through the thread, you're missing my point, I am saying that when people SEE anything which begins with VG, whether it's VG+ or VG++ or whatever, they will automatically assume that it is a well used record and not in EXCELLENT condition.  People are not going to read through all that comprehensive grading stuff every time they want to buy a record, they'll see the title, see VG+ and say 'no thanks'.

Still not sure why I, being born in and lived in Britain all my life, and selling to 90% British people, should adopt the American style of grading...

 Pete reading back through the post and seeing Chalky's reply, no many people see VG+ or even VG on many U.S. Ebay gradings and think 'very good palyable record'. It's always been a subjective topic. Like Chalky I've purchased 100's of 45's from the goldmine, now Ebay at VG or VG+ and they have arrived with no sound quality lose and have been alround great records. So I see VG+ and M- as great records, if the're not I ask for a refund.

 

This topic seems to be about fag paper thin differences. As I've already said you could have 10 levels 100 levels and still some wouldn't be happy.

[Pete S]

 

 

This topic seems to be about fag paper thin differences. As I've already said you could have 10 levels 100 levels and still some wouldn't be happy.

 

No it doesn't, it's just about things making sense, not buying a VG record in the hope that it's going to be better than VG just because an American has graded it.

Biggest Northern Soul site in the world uses EX   

[Dave Thorley]

No it doesn't, it's just about things making sense, not buying a VG record in the hope that it's going to be better than VG just because an American has graded it.

Biggest Northern Soul site in the world uses EX   

Very true Pete, ie JM. Biggest record selling site in the world Ebay, mainly doesn't.. Neither of which means that system is right. It's a case of what your used to and happy with..................

Edited August 15, 2013 by Dave Thorley

[Pete S]

Very true Pete, ie JM. Biggest record selling site in the world Ebay, mainly doesn't.. Neither of which means that system is right. It's a case of what your used to and happy with..................

 

Yes but the UK version of Ebay does mainly use it!

You keep referencing worldwide - not interested in it - same as we use pounds stirling over here and not dollars

[Dave Thorley]

I would argue that instead of trying to squeeze another high end grading level in, just regrade more at lower levels. Which is what more international sellers have been doing over the last few years. That way each level is more distinct and not a fag paper thin varient of another grade

[Dave Thorley]

Yes but the UK version of Ebay does mainly use it!

You keep referencing worldwide - not interested in it - same as we use pounds stirling over here and not dollars

 

 

I'm sure the buyers round the world that buy from you and I know a fair few that do, would love that attitude. You post on Facebook witch is an international site, you don't care what they think or want to help them buy from you ???

Edited August 15, 2013 by Dave Thorley

[Mach]

the one,s that makes me chuckle are the M+ or even seen M++...to me you cannot improve on something thats " MINT" ..its the TOP Grade

[Pete S]

I'm sure the buyers round the world that buy from you and I know a fair few that do, would love that attitude. You post on Facebook witch is an international site, you don't care what they think or want to help them buy from you ???

 

Yeah and I'm being a lot more helpful than you by giving them more sensible and accurate grades, so I'd leave it there if I were you and keep your nose out of my business which runs along just fine as it is with UK standard grades, thanks, if I need your advice I'll ask for it

[Dave Thorley]

Yeah and I'm being a lot more helpful than you by giving them more sensible and accurate grades, so I'd leave it there if I were you and keep your nose out of my business which runs along just fine as it is with UK standard grades, thanks, if I need your advice I'll ask for it

 

 

Pete you open the topic and asked for opions, but as always when you don't like the responses or don't get enough applause, you get nasty.

Have a nice day

[KevH]

I would argue that instead of trying to squeeze another high end grading level in, just regrade more at lower levels. Which is what more international sellers have been doing over the last few years. That way each level is more distinct and not a fag paper thin varient of another grade

 

There's no need to regrade at lower levels.G is G,any less is crap, and crap is crap,sometimes you get good stuff though as Chalky says.

Higher end gradings can have an effect on prices and reselling.,but you already know this. 

[Pete S]

Pete you open the topic and asked for opions, but as always when you don't like the responses or don't get enough applause, you get nasty.

Have a nice day

 

Are you going to let Manship and Brady know that they've got it all wrong and in fact they are mistreating their customers, no of course you're not, cos you think you can say it to me but you won't repeat the same thing to other people, so excuse me if I don't give your posts a 'like'.

Not only that the but the topic says 'soul source gradings not working for ME', it was my opinion and whatever anyone else says, it's still my opinion.

[Pete S]

F*ck it, another half decent topic gone down the swanee, am closing this, reason - not going to continue this argument in public

[Pete S]

Reopened as Dave says he hasn't had a chance to reply.

If this gets personal again I'll close it again.

[Dave Thorley]

Not being personnel and not posting anything you haven't seen via PM

 

Pete S, on 15 Aug 2013 - 3:53 PM, said:

Are you going to let Manship and Brady know that they've got it all wrong and in fact they are mistreating their customers, no of course you're not, cos you think you can say it to me but you won't repeat the same thing to other people, so excuse me if I don't give your posts a 'like'.

Not only that the but the topic says 'soul source gradings not working for ME', it was my opinion and whatever anyone else says, it's still my opinion.

 

As always Pete

 

either misread me or deliberately misqouted me.

 

 

Dave Thorley, on 15 Aug 2013 - 3:27 PM, said:

Very true Pete, ie JM. Biggest record selling site in the world Ebay, mainly doesn't.. Neither of which means that system is right. It's a case of what your used to and happy with..................

 

 

I said clearly that neither system was right. So not saying John, Pat, old mother hubbard was wrong.............So no need to tell them anything.

 

Neither did I said you were mistreating your customers.................

 

 

Dave Thorley, on 15 Aug 2013 - 3:37 PM, said:

I'm sure the buyers round the world that buy from you and I know a fair few that do, would love that attitude. You post on Facebook witch is an international site, you don't care what they think or want to help them buy from you ???

 

 

Just that you seem to have a strange British is always right, who cares about anyone else attitude, when you sell internationally. Nowhere does it say you or anyone else mistreats customers.

[Souljazera]

Perhaps a grading system on websites too...Pete a black background does not make easy reading..!!! You might sell more without it !!!

[Pete S]

Perhaps a grading system on websites too...Pete a black background does not make easy reading..!!! You might sell more without it !!!

 

See what you're saying but the background on mine is all white not black, does it show up differently depending on what browser people use?

Can everyone see white with black edging here?

https://www.raresoul.co.uk/wordpress/

[Pete S]

Perhaps a grading system on websites too...Pete a black background does not make easy reading..!!! You might sell more without it !!!

 

n.b. am a bit stuck there as this website is designed using wordpress and I haven't got a clue about it, am totally dependent on the lady who built the site, and even she doesn't know why the shopping cart doesn't work properly so I'm just thankful that I sell most records via my mailing list.

[Guest Andy Carling]

I've had some great buys described as vg.

I think if your buying an expensive record it's worth asking the seller if he has a returns policy. If it's a cheap record then it's worth a gamble.

Andy

[Andybellwood]

I've had some great buys described as vg.

particularly from Craig Moerer - some other dealers /sellers would rate between ex amd m- 

[Tiberius]

particularly from Craig Moerer - some other dealers /sellers would rate between ex amd m- 

I don't think they use Ex at CM's......at least I don't remember seeing it used.  Their VG+ is going to be in very nice condition when it arrives 99% of times.

 

I don't mind the Ex grade at all, as it's far less confusing than all the ++++++ signs sometimes seen.  In fact I think the seller should be able to use whatever grading system they like as long as it's absolutely clearly stated and accurate.  It would help to have a standard that everyone used but that will never happen.   Including good scans/pics alongside audio samples from the actual record for sale is by far the best way a seller can try to indicate condition.  Way better than any grading system or description alone.

 

As far as Mint goes it would have to be still sealed, in shrink or whatever, to qualify in my opinion and I reckon VG- is as low as it gets......rough.

[Modernsoulsucks]

I think the main thing here is that the grades sellers use are understood by the buyers.

The Soul Source recommended system lists the condition by the grade. So if a seller states in the ad he is using that system you know, as the buyer, what you should to be getting.

Any seller is free to use another grading system where EX replaces VG++.

As some have pointed out VG++ is used on US sites and is equivalent to EX which is more often used in the UK

It's not an exact science so there is no definite answer as to which system to use.

Personally I see what top grade is and if by the time I'm at VG+ and there is M, M- Ex+, Ex, EX- above it then I'm thinking the 45 is far from Mint, especially if those grades are not spelt out.

My advice to buyers is make sure you know what each grade stands for and check feedback record for the seller.

ROD [Forum Moderator]

[Pete S]

I don't think they use Ex at CM's......at least I don't remember seeing it used.  Their VG+ is going to be in very nice condition when it arrives 99% of times.

 

I don't mind the Ex grade at all, as it's far less confusing than all the ++++++ signs sometimes seen.  In fact I think the seller should be able to use whatever grading system they like as long as it's absolutely clearly stated and accurate.  It would help to have a standard that everyone used but that will never happen.   Including good scans/pics alongside audio samples from the actual record for sale is by far the best way a seller can try to indicate condition.  Way better than any grading system or description alone.

 

As far as Mint goes it would have to be still sealed, in shrink or whatever, to qualify in my opinion and I reckon VG- is as low as it gets......rough.

 

I'd say a VG- record is one thats never been kept in a sleeve and looks battered but plays well in comparison with it's appearance - and of course all someone has to do is post a sound clip, like you say

[pogo paul]

Pete is right, U.K. record collectors have been using the 'Record Collector' grading system for years, it's what i have always gone by and can't see any need to change :thumbsup:

[Tiberius]

I'd say a VG- record is one thats never been kept in a sleeve and looks battered but plays well in comparison with it's appearance - and of course all someone has to do is post a sound clip, like you say

OK so flipping the thread on it's head, should we actually be discussing the VG- and lower grades not the EX grade, which seems quite obviously to indicate an Excellent, but not Mint, condition disc, and makes a lot of sense to use as far as I'm concerned.  However records graded as G, presumably to indicate Good, are anything but and in any other field would most likely fall foul of the Trades Descriptions Act.  Therefore do away with G and use Poor, or even Bad!  This brings us onto VG- where, using your description above, the record looks shall we say "tired" but plays somewhat better than visual.  I would suggest Fair would be a more obvious choice than VG-.

 

As I said this is purely hypothetical, I'm certainly not trying to rewrite the age old accepted grading system(s) but if I was an outsider looking in then the most obvious choice would perhaps be Poor, Fair, Good, Very Good, Excellent, Mint.  I'd have a better idea of what I was getting rather than all this +++ & ---- nonsense.

 

We are where we are , where we always were, with the existing grades......along with all the elation/frustration when the record lands on the mat.

 

Anyway now off to buy another record I've just seen listed on eBay,   VG++++++++

Edited August 15, 2013 by tiberius

[Dave Pinch]

lookin at that goldmine grading system i hope you guys using it have vg+ at 50% of a mint price and vg copies at  25% of mint price

 

i use ex and + & - .. i can lay 10 records out  and condition would be varying on them all

[Dave Pinch]

particularly from Craig Moerer - some other dealers /sellers would rate between ex amd m- 

on the other hand 3 records out of the 5 i got from craig had things like warps and label tears that were never in the description, when i pm`d about it i got instant part refunds without even asking for it which was nice but i wouldnt have bought in the 1st place if i`d known they werent clean

[KevH]

" In fact I think the seller should be able to use whatever grading system they like as long as it's absolutely clearly stated and accurate"

 

The key being clearly stated and accurate.

 

For all sellers and buyers to be singing from the same hymn sheet, don't we all need some training/course to refer back to.? Other businesses have to have proven standards.If we're going to treat all selling and buying as a business,lets get the Grading Courses started.

If not,lets leave it as it is....Between the seller and the buyer.

[Hammersoul]

Personally i don`t really care if sellers uses ex or vg,bottom line for me ; will i be happy with it. Key in buying is knowing the sellers grading standards,some overgrade,some under.Downside of buying off collectors or small sellers especially on here who only post now and again is having to send a message to make sure record is up to my standard.I think that was what Pete was trying to get at?

 

The other problem sellers have is:

 

i`ve had mint looking records crackle,pop where maybe previous owner or before that  used a knackered needle or record was badly/

cheaply  pressed.

 

I`ve also had  visually looking vg-/vg+ play perfect/sound mint.  

 

So do we go down looks=  plays=  cos those that deal in lots of records won`t never get much else done  lol . Bottom line is no one can be perfect.