The Originals - Suspicion

[Peter99]

I'm not a huge Motown fan i have to say - although as I get older I am becoming far more appreciative.

 

Just been playing the Originals - Suspicion off a cd - it's the original take i think. Always really, really rated this - so how much would one of these set you back? I suspect lots.

 

Thanks

 

Peter

 

Edited July 28, 2013 by Peter99

[Soulman]

Hi Peter

It was never released by the originals. It came from the big acetate find some 25/30 years ago under the working title "baby have mercy on me". I was fortunate enough to see Freddie Gorman And the rest of the band including his daughter perform it at Richards 50th birthday at the ritz in Manchester. I also went to John Manships where he had the acetate haul. Myself and Andy Rix took the haul back to Boston where Ndy catalogued everything. All those acetates in the boot of a ford escort..... Hmmmmmm

Edited July 28, 2013 by soulman

[Chalky]

It is unissued Peter, there is an acetate though.

[Chalky]

It actually came over here on a tape done by Robb K whilst working on the "From The Vaults" series which was eventually shelved. Rod Shard who the tape went to got it cut and Dave Withers played it out at Stafford. The acetate came later.

[Peter99]

Hi Peter

It was never released by the originals. It came from the big acetate find some 25/30 years ago under the working title "baby have mercy on me". I was fortunate enough to see Freddie Gorman And the rest of the band including his daughter perform it at Richards 50th birthday at the ritz in Manchester. I also went to John Manships where he had the acetate haul. Myself and Andy Rix took the haul back to Boston where Ndy catalogued everything. All those acetates in the boot of a ford escort..... Hmmmmmm

Hi Steve

 

Thanks matey. There was lots of soul activity in Boston back in the day!

 

I send you my best Sir.

 

Peter

 

[Peter99]

It actually came over here on a tape done by Robb K whilst working on the "From The Vaults" series which was eventually shelved. Rod Shard who the tape went to got it cut and Dave Withers played it out at Stafford. The acetate came later.

Hi Chalky

 

I'll not be getting one any time soon then! I'm aware of other odd bits of info about the track - it being speeded up etc.

 

 

Cheers buddy.

 

Peter

[Chalky]

[Chalky]

I think the speeding up on the boot was an accident, the tape player actually playing fast, sure that's the story as I remember it.

I'm sure Robb says the acetate with the working title Baby Have Mercy On Me wasn't the acetate he recorded the track off, sure he will confirm one way or t'other if he reads this.

[Soulman]

It actually came over here on a tape done by Robb K whilst working on the "From The Vaults" series which was eventually shelved. Rod Shard who the tape went to got it cut and Dave Withers played it out at Stafford. The acetate came later.

Hi chalky

I'm damn sure I have a photo of the orig acetate from the haul that Manship had that myself and Andy collected from him. Always remember being confused knowing its wiring title and then hearing it out as suspicion????? Put me right please

Steve

[Peter99]

Fantastic.

[Chalky]

Here you go Steve....

 

[Jim Elliott]

_{Still, awesome.}

[Peter99]

_{Still, awesome.}

Yep, love it.

 

Peter

[Mark Jones]

I think the speeding up on the boot was an accident, the tape player actually playing fast, sure that's the story as I remember it.

Didn't know that was the story mate, thought a moses smith (a la epitome of sound) jobbie was done. You learn something every day!

As I said in Clifton Hall thread a couple of days ago definitely remember Keith Minshull playing it out in '82/83 there at the correct speed as we know it today.

Do remember as by then I was used the the 47rpm version getting played out and my ears pricked up on hearing a different version!

[Robbk]

I think the speeding up on the boot was an accident, the tape player actually playing fast, sure that's the story as I remember it.

I'm sure Robb says the acetate with the working title Baby Have Mercy On Me wasn't the acetate he recorded the track off, sure he will confirm one way or t'other if he reads this.

The acetate we had was a Jobete Music ownership reference acetate with no artist listed.  It had a cream-coloured label, which only had "Suspicion" written on it in red ink from a typewriter.  "Our version", was different from the recording now available on You-Tube.  I believe our take was a nicer version (tighter- with better vocal and better instrumental mix. 

[Robbk]

Here you go Steve....

 

Originals - Suspicion.jpg

That wasa different acetate.  We had a standard 7 inch Jobete Music 45 rpm acetate.  This was an alternate take (done, I Believe, a little later than the one we found.

[Chalky]

Is this the one Robb.....

 

[Chalky]

That wasa different acetate.  We had a standard 7 inch Jobete Music 45 rpm acetate.  This was an alternate take (done, I Believe, a little later than the one we found.

 

It is probably the slower of the two takes??  

 

There is also a third take with a 70's feel to it that is being played out at venues over here by one or two.

[Robbk]

No!  This was a 3rd different take.  Ours had a different vocal, and the instrumental was different as well.  I remember hearing 3 different takes on this song, with 3 different instrumental recordings (not just different mixes). 

 

Unfortunately, I'm in Denmark now, away from my records and tapes, so I can't play it.  But Rod (ModernSoulSucks) should be able to play his original tape, and see which version we chose.

Edited July 29, 2013 by RobbK

[jocko]

I seem to remember being at a Richard Searling?Bernie Golding Soul Appreciation Society (SAS) all nighter in trendy Manchester venue and Dave W laying loads of these for the first time. This would have been before Stafford I would have thought, or maybe before I first went to Stafford, it was fairly sparsely attended, and I remember a crowd of Scottish Jazz Funk guys, (there as SAS all dayer same place next day) being most active on dance floor, but in a mocking way?

Anyone else remember that. I assume Rodney would be best placed but assume he is busy getting his Trotter enterprise record shop set up?

I do remember travelling solo and not knowing another person in there.

[Chalky]

Jock, Whilst compiling Dave Withers podcast both Dave and Rod were adamant Stafford was the first place they were played. 

[Modernsoulsucks]

I've no longer got original tape Bob. Long time ago and a couple of house moves.

 

I've also not really kept up with history as to different versions cropping up or how they compare to each other.

 

So it definitely wasn't speeded up to appeal to the dance floor. It was perfect as it was. I've read this many a time and I kinda assumed that maybe Robb's tapedeck was the reason but it could be just different versions it seems.

 

Dave and I did do some tapes around the time of our Stafford playlist inc some of the Motown.  I believe some of those may have been faulty and played fast,  and as we cut our acetates off Bob's tape I guess there was nothing to stop others cutting acetates from those.

 

I do know John Manship had nothing to do with those tracks first getting aired. There was some "dodgy" LP with Motown cuts doing the rounds a little later. No idea where that came from but it seemed to be mostly the cuts Bob unearthed and played to me which we then used at Stafford.

 

ROD

[Modernsoulsucks]

I'd believe Jocko before me and Dave! 

 

I think it was '81 when I was at Bob's and got the tape. Bob may remember.

 

ROD

[Chalky]

Rod, Is the Lp the one Rob Marriott did late 80's?

[Chalky]

Didn't Soussan "acquire" the acetates that turned up later?

[Modernsoulsucks]

No idea Chalky though I think LP turned up not long after we started playing them. Within a year maybe or even less ?

Unfortunately at the time I didn't realise we should have been taking notes !

As for the acetates Im sure I've spoken to Bob a couple of times about some acetates finding their way to a dealer in LA but Bob can't remember and I'm vague about it cos I thought it was Bob who told me and name of dealer is gone from my memory.

ROD

[Robbk]

I've no longer got original tape Bob. Long time ago and a couple of house moves.

 

I've also not really kept up with history as to different versions cropping up or how they compare to each other.

 

So it definitely wasn't speeded up to appeal to the dance floor. It was perfect as it was. I've read this many a time and I kinda assumed that maybe Robb's tapedeck was the reason but it could be just different versions it seems.

 

Dave and I did do some tapes around the time of our Stafford playlist inc some of the Motown.  I believe some of those may have been faulty and played fast,  and as we cut our acetates off Bob's tape I guess there was nothing to stop others cutting acetates from those.

 

I do know John Manship had nothing to do with those tracks first getting aired. There was some "dodgy" LP with Motown cuts doing the rounds a little later. No idea where that came from but it seemed to be mostly the cuts Bob unearthed and played to me which we then used at Stafford.

 

ROD

I'm sure that someone else took a copy of our tape and sped it up.  When I heard that "new" version, it sounded like mine sped up a bit.  THAT so-called "version", had nothing to do with the other two alternate takes.  We heard at least 2 different vocal and instrumental versions in The Vaults, and neither of those 2 were the "Baby Have Mercy On Me" version, shown above.

[Robbk]

No idea Chalky though I think LP turned up not long after we started playing them. Within a year maybe or even less ?

Unfortunately at the time I didn't realise we should have been taking notes !

As for the acetates Im sure I've spoken to Bob a couple of times about some acetates finding their way to a dealer in LA but Bob can't remember and I'm vague about it cos I thought it was Bob who told me and name of dealer is gone from my memory.

ROD

Yes, Rod, I've forgotten who the dealer was who auctioned off the various acetates.  But others had gotten others of the acetates we saw.  They were sold out from under Motown by more than one source at more than one time.  Soussain probably got some of them, but they probably went to several dealers in several batches.

[Robbk]

I've no longer got original tape Bob. Long time ago and a couple of house moves.

 

I've also not really kept up with history as to different versions cropping up or how they compare to each other.

 

So it definitely wasn't speeded up to appeal to the dance floor. It was perfect as it was. I've read this many a time and I kinda assumed that maybe Robb's tapedeck was the reason but it could be just different versions it seems.

 

Dave and I did do some tapes around the time of our Stafford playlist inc some of the Motown.  I believe some of those may have been faulty and played fast,  and as we cut our acetates off Bob's tape I guess there was nothing to stop others cutting acetates from those.

 

I do know John Manship had nothing to do with those tracks first getting aired. There was some "dodgy" LP with Motown cuts doing the rounds a little later. No idea where that came from but it seemed to be mostly the cuts Bob unearthed and played to me which we then used at Stafford.

 

ROD

That LP was probably made from taping off of Dave W.'s playing of them at Stafford, or possibly even a "generation" later (from an in-between source). No wonder the quality wasn't so good.  That's why some of the boots were even lower quality, as they came off 4th generation tapes (The Vandellas comes to mind).

[jocko]

 

Jock, Whilst compiling Dave Withers podcast both Dave and Rod were adamant Stafford was the first place they were played.

As I say, that all Nighter may have just been before I went to Stafford rather than it being before Stafford, I certainly didn't go to early Staffords when Clifton Hall was still on. Date for this would be around early 82 I think, it was heavily advertised in Echoes as SAS if you still have them from that date.

I'd believe Jocko before me and Dave!

I think it was '81 when I was at Bob's and got the tape. Bob may remember.

ROD

Do you remember the All Nighter I mean? It was one of 2 or 3 Richard and Bernie had in central Manchester, they were also doing Jazz Funk dos. It would have definitely been post Wigan so likely 82 as I was travelling alone then. I did speak to Dave early on, and remember him raving about some stuff but it was also the time of the great new stuff that I had on a tape from you guys (Spoilers always being my memory off that tape), not the Motown stuff so thats why I think it was mostly Motown new stuff that night, however I also sometimes think my name is Billy and today is Wednesday so not sure my memory is most trustworthy any more.

Reason I remember Suspicion from that night was I came home in my mind convinced it was a record a mate had that I knew I could get cheap, which I did, and was I dissapointed to get Carlena Weaver Jealousy home to find it couldn't be more different.

Dave played an hour of new stuff to a very empty dance floor, although Richard did same with less new stuff so I think it reflected the small unstimulated crowd more than the music

[Modernsoulsucks]

I can't Jocko.

 

I'll ask Dave but he's as bad as me.

 

I am making copious notes now so I won't be caught out when this conversation comes up in April 2037.

 

I do remember though these tracks not exactly setting dance floor alight at first.

 

ROD

[Chalky]

Here's two adverts from February and March 1982 for the SAS of GB Soul Club.

 

 

[Steve L]

 

 

  There was some "dodgy" LP with Motown cuts doing the rounds a little later. No idea where that came from but it seemed to be mostly the cuts Bob unearthed and played to me which we then used at Stafford.

 

ROD

 

Mansfield courtesy of Rob & Chris Marriott

[jocko]

 

Here's two adverts from February and March 1982 for the SAS of GB Soul Club.

Hmm, not sure, only one that mentions Dave is the all dayer, so now wondering if the Jazz Funk do was an all nighter later but my memory banks has it as a Bank Holiday sunday all nighter, as I remember being unusually tired at the all nighter and needing a sleep, which as you know is unusual for me.

However it looks like Rod and I failing to muster a whole brain cell between us may resign this to one of those unanswered questions.

Pretty sure it was Manchester Tiffs though, was that near Arndale Centre?

[jocko]

 

Mansfield courtesy of Rob & Chris Marriott

 

Was Robs LP not much later, and didn't have Suspicion did it? I use to play Kim Weston and one other off this, before leaving it somewhere, so cannot totally remember the tracks, but didn't think it had any of the early big tracks

Great LP though,

[jocko]

Mind I have just read these adverts again, it talks about a Manchester Tiffs on Sunday 21/03, preceded by an all dayer on 17/03 which would make it a Wednesday and times are 9pm-2am so sounds like a Wed Night party!

Bloody hell, just shows never believe what you read.

So I am going for the 21/03 being the do I am talking about, (it was cold) so question is now had Stafford started by 21/03/82 and if so had Dave W dj'd?

[Chalky]

Here is the "sleeve" that came with Rob's LP.  The second never materialised.  It would be late 80's into early 90's when he did this, can't remember for sure.  I remember John Kingan went to collect his and my copy.

 

 

[Chalky]

So I am going for the 21/03 being the do I am talking about, (it was cold) so question is now had Stafford started by 21/03/82 and if so had Dave W dj'd?

 

Stafford was running but not under Top Dog banner.  Keith Minsh and Chris King ran it under the Weekend Soul Club banner and the March night was a Torch revival I think, I can check the Echoes if you really want to know?

Stafford as you/we know it under Dave Thorley and the Top Dog Soul Club started in April 1982.  Dave was certainly Djing at Stafford in May as I have a playlist of his from then, can't say for sure if he was at the first in April as I can't find a flyer or advert for it.

Edited July 29, 2013 by chalky

[jocko]

Stafford was running but not under Top Dog banner.  Keith Minsh and Chris King ran it under the Weekend Soul Club banner and the March night was a Torch revival I think, I can check the Echoes if you really want to know?

Stafford as you/we know it under Dave Thorley and the Top Dog Soul Club started in April 1982.  Dave was certainly Djing at Stafford in May as I have a playlist of his from then, can't say for sure if he was at the first in April as I can't find a flyer or advert for it.

 

Okay, then I am taking it as my first play facts supercede Rod and Dave's and unless they get their minds restored sometime soon, I suspect there is no-one around to contradict me.    

Could be my first ever fact on all this......

Edited July 29, 2013 by jocko

[Davenpete]

Asked the boys when we were looking after them for Richard's do - it ISN'T speeded up and was CP Spencer.

 

By the way as an aside they also sang backing on All I Do by Tammi.

 

Dx

[Speedlimit]

Hi Chalky Rob & Chris did the l.p  mid 88 remember it well it was cut from tapes that Danny Everrad  supplied  as I have the same tapes with the date wrote on them suspicion was definatly played in 81 as Dave Withers played it at an all nighter in Nottingham at Tiffanys

[Louis]

I remember the Irish all nighter at Manchester Tiffs.  What I recall is "everyone" going bonkers in the side room where Dave/Rod were playing tapes of the Motown discoveries and saying Dave would play them out at the next Stafford...............

 

Louis

[Simon T]

I had a tape entitled 'Dave Rod Sounds '82'. It's got loads of their Stafford plays, inter-dispersed with all the 'Motown U/R' tracks. The whole of the tape play a tad too fast. However, all the Motown stuff play way much faster than they should.

[Ady Of Newark]

I bought this as a pressing at a scooter rally in the 80s - the group was cited as the Detroit Prophets. Don't know anything about them though? & never seen an original

[Chalky]

I bought this as a pressing at a scooter rally in the 80s - the group was cited as the Detroit Prophets. Don't know anything about them though? & never seen an original

You won't see an original as one doesn't exist except for the Originals acetates. What you have is a boot with a made up group name.

Edited July 30, 2013 by chalky

[jocko]

Hi Chalky Rob & Chris did the l.p mid 88 remember it well it was cut from tapes that Danny Everrad supplied as I have the same tapes with the date wrote on them suspicion was definatly played in 81 as Dave Withers played it at an all nighter in Nottingham at Tiffanys

I remember the Irish all nighter at Manchester Tiffs. What I recall is "everyone" going bonkers in the side room where Dave/Rod were playing tapes of the Motown discoveries and saying Dave would play them out at the next Stafford...............

Louis

Jeez, smart asses are like buses, none for ages then two arrive at same time!

Mr P, thanks for that, so now not only is it no longer the only fact I have given on here, it was the shortest lived myth I ever created. Thanks a bunch.

Oi Lewis, that Irish do was a 9-2 Wednesday night do, so hardly an allnighter, even at this age! So was that advert wrong and am I remembering another night, as I don't remember a side room, although that might explain why I never knew anyone if there was another room that I wasn't in. I believe Mr Kellet and Mr Molloy were at the one I was at, but seen neither, although since I didn't know you or Gaz then I probably wouldn't have noticed you, although the thought of not being able to notice Gaz at any point seems unlikely...

Bloody hell, this memory game is not easy!  

[Steve L]

Here is the "sleeve" that came with Rob's LP.  The second never materialised.  It would be late 80's into early 90's when he did this, can't remember for sure.  I remember John Kingan went to collect his and my copy.

 

Rob Marriott Motwon Bootleg LP.jpg

 

So is the LP rod initially mentioned a different one then? Were there other knocking about different to the RM one?

[Rick Smith]

You could always buy the Originals Suspicion re-release on Soul Records for a fiver on ebay. Probably a tadge cheaper than the original.

Must say though it was interesting to see the background to this track.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Rick Smith

[Peter99]

You could always buy the Originals Suspicion re-release on Soul Records for a tenner on ebay

Yeah, it's an illegal release though isn't it.

 

P

[Dave Rimmer]

Yeah, it's an illegal release though isn't it.

 

P

 

No more than any of the other vinyl versions.