The "punter" & Dj Balance

[Raremusicdirect]

Russ Vickers  was exploring the bringing back of former djs on a thread and it made me consider that the balance between dj and punter has probably changed from the days of Wigan through to the present.

 

I would say that many "punters" I meet are very knowledgable on the music and tunes and I think this must be to a far greater level now than before; has this closed the knowledge gap between dj and punter ?

 

Its surely aided by the internet etc ?

Edited May 18, 2013 by RareMusicDirect

[Ian Dewhirst]

Russ Vickers  was exploring the bringing back of former djs on a thread and it made me consider that the balance between dj and punter has probably changed from the days of Wigan through to the present.

 

I would say that many "punters" I meet are very knowledgable on the music and tunes and I think this must be to a far greater level now than before; has this closed the knowledge gap between dj and punter ?

 

Its surely aided by the internet etc ?

 

Yes. Back in the day there was essentially a small nucleus of DJ's and serious collectors which probably worked out to about 2% of the total audience. The other 98% were more interested in dancing or listening to the music. In my opinion that was probably about the right balance. These days at some gigs it almost seems the other way around LOL.....

 

Ian D

[Patto]

I think the internet has helped broaden peoples record knowledge, but also i think that its just a  simple case of the average punter being middle aged now and therefore more experienced on the scene.Back in the Wigan days most of us were just kids and knew very little really.

[TOAD]

I say not much knowledge on the revival part of the scene swathes of tunes still not played especially from the last years of the casino it is if they just stuck pre 1978 time warp.

[Rich B]

I think the knowledge base has improved enormously, simply being able to get to the states easily has changed things massively. In '74 I could have imagined going to the moon as easily as going to the USA.

 

As Patto points out, most are middle aged now, with 30 + years of experience, there is the internet etc. And not all dj's actually knew as much as we thought they did back then - they just had better records than most of us!

 

Even in the last 10 or so years since I stopped collecting so many things have turned up  - exotic foreign copies thanks to fans overseas (ex pats or otherwise) and the internet to easily share that info. We now have some of our 'heroes' (as in artists/producers) even contributing to this site, who could have predicted that?

 

And, though it might be a predominantly ovo scene, compilations and as a result, all of those previously unissued recordings made available for reasonable money.

 

In fact you would have to say all this extra knowledge must have made the scene a much, much better place. thanks to a thread on here I saw my first 'issue' of the Volcano's "You're number 1" today. When I had my demo it was reckoned never to have been issued at all - so there's an example.

 

Unfortunately, as Toad says, the majority of  people just want to hear what they were listening to when they were teenagers and first on the scene, so how much benefit has all this additional knowledge and development really been to the majority?

 

I think ID's "98% wanted to listen or dance" point probably is still quite near the mark.

[Chalky]

Far more knowledgeable scene but it hasn't stopped it being dumbed down and turned virtually into a retro dance scene. You would think that all the knowledge would be put to good use at venues.

[Guest Matt Male]

I think the people who wanted to find out more post Wigan are still the people who want to find out more today, and those who didn't then, don't now.

 

Although even the most blinkered must have gained more knowledge in 30 years surely... eh?

[Guest Bearsy]

Relative newbies like me can find tunes and info at the touch of a button and sometimes when out and about I talk to people that have been around for years (or so they say lol) and I'm quite astonished at times that they seem to know nigh on naff all about tunes, labels, artists etc etc etc, maybe the difference is some people are interested in more than just what comes out the speakers and want like and need to know how got to be made to be able to come out them speakers. A lot of knowledgable people out there and also many a dj that knows only that the tune they play is a floor filler no more no less and care no more no less,

Been to some events and looked around to count just how many there are a dj and sometimes there are more djs in than dancers/non djs.

[Northernjordan]

In fact you would have to say all this extra knowledge must have made the scene a much, much better place. thanks to a thread on here I saw my first 'issue' of the Volcano's "You're number 1" today. When I had my demo it was reckoned never to have been issued at all - so there's an example.

Sorry, where is the Volcanoes being discussed? As I believe I have an issue somewhere...

[Tezza]

Noticed the use of the phrase's Post Wigan and the Casino Days.  I know it gives a finite period of time to work from but there were many more places apart from The Casino. These DJ's honed their teeth in equally as iconic venues. In The Torch Days, back in The Wheel, at The Esquire Club ( not as well know but World famous in Sheffield ). Wouldn't  'back in the early days' or the 70's etc suffice ?

I don't think some of the DJ's give the Punters credit some/many places and tend to play the 'Safe' stuff. We, the Punter, remember and would like to hear it again.  Spread your wings and gauge the response. Might be slow on the uptake but wasn't it always like that back in the Casino Days - DOH !!  Remember when Lou Pride bombed, kept playing it and BOOM !!! Replace Lou Pride with an Artist or Beat Combo of your choice.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Tezza

[Dave Pinch]

Sorry, where is the Volcanoes being discussed? As I believe I have an issue somewhere...

the issue was bootlegged also..the original issue is very rare..rarer than many £1000 tunes.....but still relatively cheap,,,when do you here it out tho

 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2013 by dave pinch

[Northernjordan]

the issue was bootlegged also..the original issue is very rare..rarer than many £1000 tunes.....but still relatively cheap,,,when do you here it out tho

 

 

 

I have started a thread in look at your box, to no hijack this thread.

[dthedrug]

 HI ALL This is a topic that I fully endorse as there have been so many changes in style sound and venues over the 45 years I have listen to, collected and on occasion DJ ED,

As a punter (am I a punter? punters pay to get

into gigs, something I try to avoid on the principle that is the gig keeping to the old school principles of obscure original and must have, if not let me DJ?)

When I am attending a venue, the things that make me want to return are as follows:- using the old school ethics on what makes a good night is important, I enjoy being in the company of soul brothers & sisters, not in the company of locals who don't no the meaning of hello!

In my youth typical DISCOS PUBS & CLUBS in LONDON & the HOME COUNTIES, were full of wanna be Dick Heads, who were there to get pissed up & fight, "who you screwing" was a common shout, "screwing meant eyeballing someone, a big no no, a even bigger no no, was to stair at someone sort (girl) if you bumped into someone you had to ask for forgiveness & if you spilt their drink you were expected to buy them another, this attitude leads to 2 outcomes fight or flight, back then you had to fight, when you got a bit older and gained a reputation, you then applied this nonsense towards others (unwritten rule is don't drink in strange Public Bars if you want to avoid a kickin from the locals)

The solution to that scene was discovering the Northern Soul Scene (rare soul scene as it was called then)

When attending the SOUL Clubs non of the above crap applied and this was not because they were not capable far from it, it was because they had SOUL, a spirit of awareness of what is important and acting like 2 year olds was not the BAG.

The SOUL SCENE PEOPLE were very much into the music policy, and always showed you respect especially when they found out you had driven 150 miles to hear the music, you were always greeted with a hand shake (in the South if you did that, you would be asking for it, as you must be a POOF?)

The TOP DJs played records that you would die for much has been written about them over the years but trust me the likes of Alan Day & Tony Jebb have never lost the crowns they wore and other contenders like Keith Minshull & PEP just the same unchallengeable no one could compare o the skill of these people who could keep you dancing for 8 so full soulful hours,

On today's eclectic mixture of DJs you do get very good ones at LONDONS 100 CLUB (Is this because ADY has vetted them for soulfulness before they et a spot?) in the MIDLANDS we are lucky as we have 2 of the country's TOP DJs Ted Massey and BUTCH both are unique in their play lists, and both take time out to welcome you, I have great respect for both off them, I could name a few more people but I have made a point,

The issue is more about the records played and the venue they are played in, Local events don't need the #1 DJs this comes from the need of the club, if the club gets established, my best examples are 2 soul clubs that become so big you would think they were

All-Nighter's, my bench mark is BLACKPOOLS MECCA, #1 SOUL CLUB, Wolverhampton clubs the VIC & the BLACK HORSE, both venues were 10  out of 10, in every thing that this thread is about, I'm sure many people could add to the list,

Last Saturday I did my 1st DJ spot in YONK'S'', (thanks to SWOZ who has encouraged me back due to my SOULFUL ILLNESS)

The 45's I played (All on UK labels) went down well, but more than that at least half were fresh to those who attended making the experience very enjoyable, so much so I intend to do a few more over the summer,

Well that's my intro I hope it brings out some good comments on he subject of this thread, this is a personal view of the scene,

 AS ALWAYS

DAVE K

[Dave Thorley]

Relative newbies like me can find tunes and info at the touch of a button and sometimes when out and about I talk to people that have been around for years (or so they say lol) and I'm quite astonished at times that they seem to know nigh on naff all about tunes, labels, artists etc etc etc, maybe the difference is some people are interested in more than just what comes out the speakers and want like and need to know how got to be made to be able to come out them speakers. A lot of knowledgable people out there and also many a dj that knows only that the tune they play is a floor filler no more no less and care no more no less,

Been to some events and looked around to count just how many there are a dj and sometimes there are more djs in than dancers/non djs.

 

 

Think there a lot of truth in that, information has always been there. Used to be in books, mags like Blues & Soul, Billboard, Cashbox etc, now it's all one click away. But still it's about people that want to do the research to gain the knowledge. But also agree, that many venues now have more DJ's or record dealers in the audience than anyone else.

[Markw]

Far more knowledgeable scene but it hasn't stopped it being dumbed down and turned virtually into a retro dance scene. You would think that all the knowledge would be put to good use at venues.

Excellent point, very succinctly put. 

[Len]

The Balance thing you point out is a very good point, D.Jing for example, didn’t cross most (98%) of our minds when we started out (no matter when that may be) This has to do with ‘Knowledge’ as we didn’t know what the records were, and were probably too scared ask!

 

Another really good point is the ‘choice’ that people have made - some ‘wanting’ to learn, others not bothered, and I don’t see anything wrong with either (the point of the thread focusing on those that have chosen to ‘learn’ I know)

 

A while back there was a thread about an event (it was Mick H’s 50^th Birthday Party) this thread had the funniest post I have ever read, it was from a mate of Mick’s, he said “Had a great time, been on the Scene for 40 years, and learnt f*ck all! Lol”…..I loved and respected that view - He was basically saying, he loves the Scene, the music and everything else that comes with it, but hasn’t been bothered about the other ‘bit’.

 

Where I’m disappointed is where some may have chosen not to ‘learn’ about stuff (their choice) but haven’t taken on board the ethos of the Scene (or have forgotten it) which is to respect these D.J’s that are trying to bring us fresh tunes - that is what the Scene is supposed to be all about, and they should have grasped that at least - On the contrary, they have attacked that ethos.

 

Yes the ‘Knowledge gap between D.J and punter’ has closed, but it is more relevant in some places than others (the latter being the minority) and what that brings with it, is more of a 'connection' between the two.

 

All the best,

 

Len

Edited May 20, 2013 by LEN

[Sooty]

 HI ALL This is a topic that I fully endorse as there have been so many changes in style sound and venues over the 45 years I have listen to, collected and on occasion DJ ED,

As a punter (am I a punter? punters pay to get

into gigs, something I try to avoid on the principle that is the gig keeping to the old school principles of obscure original and must have, if not let me DJ?)

When I am attending a venue, the things that make me want to return are as follows:- using the old school ethics on what makes a good night is important, I enjoy being in the company of soul brothers & sisters, not in the company of locals who don't no the meaning of hello!

In my youth typical DISCOS PUBS & CLUBS in LONDON & the HOME COUNTIES, were full of wanna be Dick Heads, who were there to get pissed up & fight, "who you screwing" was a common shout, "screwing meant eyeballing someone, a big no no, a even bigger no no, was to stair at someone sort (girl) if you bumped into someone you had to ask for forgiveness & if you spilt their drink you were expected to buy them another, this attitude leads to 2 outcomes fight or flight, back then you had to fight, when you got a bit older and gained a reputation, you then applied this nonsense towards others (unwritten rule is don't drink in strange Public Bars if you want to avoid a kickin from the locals)

The solution to that scene was discovering the Northern Soul Scene (rare soul scene as it was called then)

When attending the SOUL Clubs non of the above crap applied and this was not because they were not capable far from it, it was because they had SOUL, a spirit of awareness of what is important and acting like 2 year olds was not the BAG.

The SOUL SCENE PEOPLE were very much into the music policy, and always showed you respect especially when they found out you had driven 150 miles to hear the music, you were always greeted with a hand shake (in the South if you did that, you would be asking for it, as you must be a POOF?)

The TOP DJs played records that you would die for much has been written about them over the years but trust me the likes of Alan Day & Tony Jebb have never lost the crowns they wore and other contenders like Keith Minshull & PEP just the same unchallengeable no one could compare o the skill of these people who could keep you dancing for 8 so full soulful hours,

On today's eclectic mixture of DJs you do get very good ones at LONDONS 100 CLUB (Is this because ADY has vetted them for soulfulness before they et a spot?) in the MIDLANDS we are lucky as we have 2 of the country's TOP DJs Ted Massey and BUTCH both are unique in their play lists, and both take time out to welcome you, I have great respect for both off them, I could name a few more people but I have made a point,

The issue is more about the records played and the venue they are played in, Local events don't need the #1 DJs this comes from the need of the club, if the club gets established, my best examples are 2 soul clubs that become so big you would think they were

All-Nighter's, my bench mark is BLACKPOOLS MECCA, #1 SOUL CLUB, Wolverhampton clubs the VIC & the BLACK HORSE, both venues were 10  out of 10, in every thing that this thread is about, I'm sure many people could add to the list,

Last Saturday I did my 1st DJ spot in YONK'S'', (thanks to SWOZ who has encouraged me back due to my SOULFUL ILLNESS)

The 45's I played (All on UK labels) went down well, but more than that at least half were fresh to those who attended making the experience very enjoyable, so much so I intend to do a few more over the summer,

Well that's my intro I hope it brings out some good comments on he subject of this thread, this is a personal view of the scene,

 AS ALWAYS

DAVE K

 

Dave....I have been on this forum for a few weeks....and you mate have epitomised what it is about for me in the above!x Thank you!x

LUV

SOOTY

X

[Rich B]

Sorry, where is the Volcanoes being discussed? As I believe I have an issue somewhere...

 

I was using the fact that I had learned of an issue copy for the first time that very day to illustrate how much knowledge, possibly as a result of the internet and the passage of a  few years, had grown Jordan.

 

As Dave P says it is very rare and not thought to exist at one time, so if you have an 'issue' it's either a re-issue or very rare indeed.

[Mark Bicknell]

Knowledge is power or so they say lol

[Chalky]

It may not have been as widespread, collectors may have at one time focused on one particular area but Knowledge has always been there, you only have to look at fanzines and magazines from the past to see that. The big difference was at one time you had to look through records week in week out, actually go out and talk to other collectors where as now far to many just glean the info from others via the Internet.

[KevH]

Here's a dj balancing 2 punters.

 

Edited May 20, 2013 by KevH

[Dekka]

No such thing as a DJ and a Punter anymore,

 

nearly everyone is a DJ and

 

nearly everyone is a punter, (or at least should be).

[AlanB]

Last Saturday I did my 1st DJ spot in YONK'S'', (thanks to SWOZ who has encouraged me back due to my SOULFUL ILLNESS)

The 45's I played (All on UK labels) went down well, but more than that at least half were fresh to those who attended making the experience very enjoyable, so much so I intend to do a few more over the summer,

 

I would be interested in seeing what you played, as I collect UK stuff.  Could you put it up in the Playlists section. Thanks. 

[dthedrug]

 HI All yes I will post what I played, however there are many points of this great story or history (if you believe history is based on a small minority account) the account being discussed has been very small if I except that the bulk of people who attended Wigan Casino for example, only 2% made up the number of soulsters on todays scene, and I do, in the same way the Wheelites & the Torch brothers & sisters were in the minority in the first 18 months of the All-Nighter opening, which is when I truly fell in love with the place, before that I was a punter lacking in knowledge about rare soul and the scenes underground ethos, masonic is more apt, just because I went through the doors of the Wheel it was for one thing only to get rid of a few dubes at grossly inflated prices,

 

On the subject of the internet & EBay I see positives & negatives, yes there is some great info to  be researched and open your eyes and top rarities' that I had never seen in my life, in the early days some collectors really had it of big time, however the availability comes at a price the net is a 2 dimension experience like reading Mayfair is 2 diamensual sex, as a lecturer I can state as fact only 10% of your knowledge in life is gained from the blackboard? education is gained through play, when you can be free to use your grey matter and not receive any critics in fact your ego states are very much in the Adult Child ego states the parental ego that consists of Nurturing / Critical ego states has not been formed, life rotates on the #7 so by the time you have reached the age of 7 you have gone through the stages of development to get through life on your own through the use of play, at the age of 8 yes you become a baby again and each year you will go through exactly the same stages so 8 yrs. olds are needy and demand food, by the time you reach 14 yrs. you are fully developed plus you have matured through the puberty adolescence stages, but the full maturity and sexual pleasures are not fully reached till 21 (we all no people who had sex at a young age but that is not my point, the fact we become independent through play and gain knowledge through play.

After my psychology class I believe that today you can buy your way onto certain levels of the scene with the help of the worlds biggest car boot sale and not leave you armchair, we all do it nowadays.  But for me getting of my ass going to every second hand shop junk shop jumble sale, and by attending soul events to meet and discuss soul, looking through the essential record box that we all carried glued to our hand, was the best way to educate yourself, so you in turn used this info to preach to punter, and then there were your mentors, not the DJ but those people who unlike me had the records before the DJ, I think that my main mentor gets a mention from myself in most of my write up's but I would not have had any knowledge so to speak if I had not met him (Mick Smith) you could not want a better mentor, my ego was masaed big time when I was at Wigan casino selling records and all-nighter food, in the company of Pete Wid ADY C & Mick, I could have had the pick of the best in their boxes, HAPPY DAYS, 

However not everyone is my age, many of todays Brothers & Sister did not go to the Casino and spend 4 days a week stoned week in week out younger people a such have progressed in their knowledge without having to listen to 100 mph under the influence of stimulants, the bad side of this is a sort of denial of Northern Soul (not stuck in a time warp) which I prefer over second ate album tracks from the 7t's still who am I to preach?

Oh yes I am a original rare soul brother and that's what we do as I feel 100% me when I am with like minded addicts  a play list will be put up soon

as I have a cuppa cha  Right on to Dave Godin who was a mentor to most Northern Soul people RIP  DAVE K

[Sunnysoul]

.... the net is a 2 dimension experience like reading Mayfair is 2 diamensual sex ....  DAVE K

 

 

[Guest Garry Huxley]

Excellent thread, I think ther isent a rise in the ammount of DJ's but rather an increase in the number of collectors who get invited to play alternativetunes rather than the top500 which makes it a realy refreshing experiance.

 

Garry Huxley

[Barry]

It may not have been as widespread, collectors may have at one time focused on one particular area but Knowledge has always been there, you only have to look at fanzines and magazines from the past to see that. The big difference was at one time you had to look through records week in week out, actually go out and talk to other collectors where as now far to many just glean the info from others via the Internet.

 

Bob on.

 

Back then everything had to be learned by effort, be that effort attending various events, looking through boxes, ordering lists, or even making/receiving tapes off ov yer mates.

 

Knowledge collection these days is so much easier.