Calling All Anoraks - Which Copy Has The Best Sound?

[Premium Stuff]

I noticed that the volume, sound quality and 'presence' of the Innocent Bystanders - Frantic Escape is sooooooo much better on the original local Pameline copy compared to the Atlantic national issue.

 

I wondered why - anyone explain please?

 

I then wondered if there were other records where it was worth seeking out the better recorded/sounding version - I'm sure there are 

 

Fill me in 

 

Cheers

 

Richard

 

 

 

[Prophonics 2029]

A demo usually but most of my Atlantics pre stereo are poor quality.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Prophonics 2029

[Jim Ohara]

I noticed that the volume, sound quality and 'presence' of the Innocent Bystanders - Frantic Escape is sooooooo much better on the original local Pameline copy compared to the Atlantic national issue.

 

I wondered why - anyone explain please?

 

I then wondered if there were other records where it was worth seeking out the better recorded/sounding version - I'm sure there are 

 

Fill me in 

 

Cheers

 

Richard

Richard

You really need to get out more mate!

Jim

[Premium Stuff]

I know, I know   

[Guest]

The vinyl copy of "You Better Keep Her" by Marvin Holmes on Brown Door, has a much better sound reproduction than the styrene copy.

[KevH]

I noticed that the volume, sound quality and 'presence' of the Innocent Bystanders - Frantic Escape is sooooooo much better on the original local Pameline copy compared to the Atlantic national issue.

 

I wondered why - anyone explain please?

 

I then wondered if there were other records where it was worth seeking out the better recorded/sounding version - I'm sure there are 

 

Fill me in 

 

Cheers

 

Richard

 

 

Hi Dickie,that was maybe recorded from the Pameline original take.Possibly recorded straight from vinyl and used by Atlantic.Not the first time this was done.I may be talking nonsense though.

[Tobytyke]

darrell banks Angel Baby on red atlantic is so much louder/better than the reissue  also on atlantic from the seventies.

[phillyDaveG]

many Atllantic 45s and LPs suffer from poor quality and low volume sound in my experience. The worst  label of all has to be Stang though, how their engineers kept their jobs I'll never know, most of the recordings sound as if they've been recorded through water lol

[Premium Stuff]

There are a couple of 45s I have that I soooooooo wish were recorded much better and louder

 

Quiet pressings do my head in                             

 

The two I am thinking of are actually also in my top favourite records out of Detroit ever!!

 

When I listen to them I long to hear them will a full and loud sound:

 

Sandra Richardson - Stay Here With Me (Inter/Soul)

 

Albert Jones - Up To The Sun (Bumpshop)

 

Pump up the volume!! 

 

Cheers

 

Richard

[Premium Stuff]

Spotted that Billy/Billie Kennedy on Thelma is much clearer and louder on the WDJ compared to the issue.

 

But only on the "This Is A Groovy Generation" side  

 

Must be loads out there like this     

 

Cheers

 

Richard

Edited June 3, 2013 by Premium Stuff

[Shsdave]

Not what you were asking Richard but Gloria Hill Be somebody Deep sounds like she was standing outside the studio whereas the b side is clear as a bell    

[Tlscapital]

Spotted that Billy/Billie Kennedy on Thelma is much clearer and louder on the WDJ compared to the issue.

 

But only on the "This Is A Groovy Generation" side  

 

Must be loads out there like this     

 

Cheers

 

Richard

Hi Richard, do you actually have a Billie Kennedy 'TIAGG' w/dj that plays louder and clearer under the hand too compare the matrix detail ? Cause I have a black one and if the lacquer they used was another mix, the matrix should show the differences. Cheers, Tim

[Premium Stuff]

Hi Richard, do you actually have a Billie Kennedy 'TIAGG' w/dj that plays louder and clearer under the hand too compare the matrix detail ? Cause I have a black one and if the lacquer they used was another mix, the matrix should show the differences. Cheers, Tim

 

Yes, I have an issue and a demo here. Not in the same place (box) though, so might take me a couple of days to find them both 

 

Cheers

 

Richard

[Guest]

Yes, I have an issue and a demo here. Not in the same place (box) though, so might take me a couple of days to find them both 

 

And whilst you're at it, what is the print quality of the "Sweet Things" side on your copy, as the WD (stamped original)  I have is blurred on that side, yet sharp and clear on the "Groovy..." side.

 

[Guest]

I noticed that the volume, sound quality and 'presence' of the Innocent Bystanders - Frantic Escape is sooooooo much better on the original local Pameline copy compared to the Atlantic national issue.

 

I wondered why - anyone explain please?

 

 

 

Naturally the quality of the source affects the process...but when the engineer cuts the acetate/master they can increase the volume with a deeper/wider cut to the groove. If they are lazy they may just take an average setting/volume, hence the sound reproduction is lower.

The "compressed" sounds some labels suffer from are simply poorly recorded in the first place and nothing to do with the acetate/master cutting.

[Tlscapital]

Yes, I have an issue and a demo here. Not in the same place (box) though, so might take me a couple of days to find them both 

 

Cheers

 

Richard

I'd be much obliged 

[Guest smudgesmith]

Al Williams Palmer far superior sound compared to the la-beat copy

[Soulstu]

D'you reckon pretty much all TMGs are better pressings than both vinyl and styrene US versions?

All my black labels play loud and clear.

[Ringleader]

D'you reckon pretty much all TMGs are better pressings than both vinyl and styrene US versions?

All my black labels play loud and clear.

 

I agree with you  - however EMI dubbed from US 45s for for many early TMGs and Stateside releases

 

UK cutting engineers did a great job at mastering so its actually hard to tell. 

[Marktsoulman]

Feminine Ingenuity by Ruby Sherry on Gold Token is much more "full" than the Take 6 copy

 

mark T

[Tlscapital]

Yes, I have an issue and a demo here. Not in the same place (box) though, so might take me a couple of days to find them both 

 

Cheers

 

Richard

I haven't forgot  so I come to remind you  

Edited September 4, 2014 by tlscapital

[Uk Soul]

The CHI-LITES  "Pretty Girl / Love Bandit" on US Daran is a lot better sound quality than the UK Beacon copy

[Harry Crosby]

I noticed that the volume, sound quality and 'presence' of the Innocent Bystanders - Frantic Escape is sooooooo much better on the original local Pameline copy compared to the Atlantic national issue.

 

I wondered why - anyone explain please?

 

I then wondered if there were other records where it was worth seeking out the better recorded/sounding version - I'm sure there are 

 

Fill me in 

 

Cheers

Sandra Richardson

 

Richard

[Guest turntableterra]

try the frank Wilson English issues against the original, this release is shocking and on analysis plays through one channel as if recorded from another single and not a tape of which I have the file copy, try it against the boot of eddie foster its a total mess in comparrison

[Premium Stuff]

 

 

I noticed that the volume, sound quality and 'presence' of the Innocent Bystanders - Frantic Escape is sooooooo much better on the original local Pameline copy compared to the Atlantic national issue.

 

I wondered why - anyone explain please?

 

I then wondered if there were other records where it was worth seeking out the better recorded/sounding version - I'm sure there are 

 

Fill me in 

 

Cheers

Sandra Richardson

 

Richard

Which ones are quiet and which are louder Harry please? I thought they were all quiet 

[Soulstu]

try the frank Wilson English issues against the original, this release is shocking and on analysis plays through one channel as if recorded from another single and not a tape of which I have the file copy, try it against the boot of eddie foster its a total mess in comparrison

Did they use that horrible fake stereo version for the UK issue (drums and backing in one speaker and horns and vocals in the other) as used on CD compilations? I agree - my pink mono Eddie boot sounds loud and 'tough' in comparison.

[Guest turntableterra]

Did they use that horrible fake stereo version for the UK issue (drums and backing in one speaker and horns and vocals in the other) as used on CD compilations? I agree - my pink mono Eddie boot sounds loud and 'tough' in comparison.

yep I had them all analysed and it clearly shows the difference.

[Ged Parker]

Ain't No Danger Clifford Curry on import is so so much better than on British and its usually the other way around. 

[Tobytyke]

i always thought the import of the dreams jessie james sounded better than the jay boy release. though i would agree that british is usually best!

[Guest]

Buddy Ace - Screaming Please

 

99% of issues have that strange whirring sound in the background, the demo`s are fine and the French "Pop" issue is fine.

I was lucky to find an issue which plays perfect but i`ve yet to see another.

[Patto]

Ain't No Danger Clifford Curry on import is so so much better than on British and its usually the other way around. 

Just Shows you beauty is in the EAR of the beholder. I much prefere the more bassy sound to the Pama release which when played out gives the record a more urgent ,raw and atmospheric sound.The Elf ones are much quieter and Tame in my opinion

[Patto]

Always thought the Soultown issue of A Little Togetherness --New Younghearts, Sounds a lot clearer and has more punch than the Canterbury release

[Ged Parker]

Just Shows you beauty is in the EAR of the beholder. I much prefere the more bassy sound to the Pama release which when played out gives the record a more urgent ,raw and atmospheric sound.The Elf ones are much quieter and Tame in my opinion

I think its system dependent.  Too many sound systems can't handle the bass and so it comes out as distorted.  To these ears anyway.  I would take both but often you don't know until you try so better to play the "tame" (or clearer) one with a little more gain.

[Premium Stuff]

And whilst you're at it, what is the print quality of the "Sweet Things" side on your copy, as the WD (stamped original)  I have is blurred on that side, yet sharp and clear on the "Groovy..." side.

 

 

Hi David

 

Print quality and sharpness is similar on both sides on my WD - no obvious difference between the labels.

 

Cheers

 

Richard

[Premium Stuff]

Hi Richard, do you actually have a Billie Kennedy 'TIAGG' w/dj that plays louder and clearer under the hand too compare the matrix detail ? Cause I have a black one and if the lacquer they used was another mix, the matrix should show the differences. Cheers, Tim

 

Yes, I have an issue and a demo here. Not in the same place (box) though, so might take me a couple of days to find them both 

 

Cheers

 

Richard

 

I'd be much obliged 

 

Hi Tim

 

Sorry for the delay mate 

 

Well, I found both copies of Billy / Billie Kennedy- on the black issue and the WDJ copy respectively. The artist's name is shown as Billy on the issue, but as Billie on the WDJ. Many copies of the demo that I have seen are corrected in marker pen by hand to replace the "ie" with a "y" (like mine).

 

The matrix details on both sides look identical on the issue and demo - I examined them with a 10 x magnification hand lens.

 

The reason I initially said that the demo played louder was by comparing the MP3 sound files I did of "This Is A Groovy Generation". This time, I played the records themselves and again I think the demo sounds much sharper and brighter, with more overall "presence". More treble picking out things like the snare drum and cymbals. This is the case on both sides of the records - so on "Sweet Things" too.

 

The differences in the artist's name on the labels suggests that the two discs could have been cut in different batches, at different times, albeit from the same master plate. Perhaps that might explain it?

 

I have also heard from time to time that companies often put more effort into how they recorded and pressed up promotional copies, knowing these were going out to radio stations, so they needed to make them sound as good as they could - but that they put less effort into how they produced the subsequent stock copies. I don't know if that's true or not, but it kind of makes sense.

 

The only other factor that could come into play is that my WDJ copy is a beautiful, shiny M-. By comparison, my black issue has obviously been played a bit and I just wonder whether the differences in sound quality could be down to a slight deterioration in the sharpness of the sound from use?

 

It's all very subjective stuff, but listening to the two discs side-by-side I would hazard a guess that they did a better recording (with sharper, clearer sound and more presence) on the demos - on which they got the artists name wrong on the labels - and they didn't do as such a good job when they pressed up the issues later on (when they also corrected the artist's name to "Billy").

 

Whatever the situation, it's another reason to choose the lovely demo over the issue 

 

Hope this helps.

 

Cheers

 

Richard

Edited September 7, 2014 by Premium Stuff

[Tlscapital]

Hi Richard, I hear you. So you say that by playing them side by side, the Billie (promo) sounds "deeper" and "clearer" than the Billy (stock) Kennedy 'TIAGG' and even the 'ST' side. But the matrix are the same. The promo factor is commonly accepted to be of better quality since they were pressed prior to the stock issues, most of the time using the very same stampers. But after X hundreds of record pressed, the stamper start to "wear out" somehow and the quality of the press becomes less "precise". That is why promos are considered to be of better quality than the last runs of pressings made from a same stamper. In some cases there's a re-work of the mix on the master tapes that comes in the process of the different runs of pressings. One of the good example of the genre is the Miracles 'shop around' on Tamla when in a matter of weeks Berry Gordy changed his mind 3 times to issue 3 different takes hesitating wich one would be the best cut/version to hit the chart higher. And they actually first issued the first cut releases with the label crediting the second take because they already had all the labels printed for the second take and in the mean time, Berry Gordy decided the actually issue it with the first take. You can only check what take it is (1 or 2) by looking at the matrix, not the label. Now I would expect if they did a re-work/mix on the issue of Billy Kennedy (corrected his name at the same time) that the matrix would show the difference. I believe you that they are the same matrix and sound different  but I don' understand what happened in the process for a record using the same lacquer then stamper to change of sound. If it was a stamper/lacquer quality problem, the sound wouldn't be different (like here) but rather show some distortions/degradations issues. Cheers for all of that Richard.