How Do You Define R&b ? Split From Other Thread

[Sceneman]

[Guest posstot]

I'm with Joe.

[Mike]

off topic posts removed

[Suzannek]

i thought todays 'rnb' stood for rubbish and boring!

dean

Aye you not wrong there

[Guest Gogs]

r&b records can be r&b records AND northern soul records, r&b records can be pop records AND northern soul records, pop records can be soul records AND northern soul records,funk records can be pop records AND northern soul records, pop records can be pop records AND northern soul records, gospel records can be be gospel records AND northern soul records and Motown records are motown records but can also be northern soul records.

So what's the problem?

[Sooty]

...has it finished???!!.....!x If its any comfort...things ain;t changed in 15 years!hehe!x It used to be argued as passionately as witnessed here in toilets and Service Stations  between 9 and 10 in the morning!x Difference is now....the same conversation....goes global these daysl!!! Healthy stuff all done in a respectable manor too!x Refreshing it is! I visit many forums of various types. 'Debate' such as been had here wouldn't get this far without degenerating into personal ,malarkey and stuff! Respect to you all...and i mean that...as someone who has been 'live' on the super highway since 1985!!x

Great place to stop by wiv me cuppa before bed methinks....nice 1!x

 

LUV
SOOTY
X

 

....ah.....among the passion and perspective.....I dd ask a question.....! Was it 50...or 500!!! Since putting that Ray Agee record in my box circa 1995....I haven;t seen another copy.....until you brought it up today Pete s! I was surprised.....and hadn't mentioned it to you in our chat....or anybody....because it ain;t 'Northern' really....not just 'there' methinks!!! But you brought the tune up.....and I was genuinely gobsmacked to see it! I've been hearing it weekly at our studio for about 4 months!!!....so understand me sincere interest!! Can anyone help and tell me what happened to it after 1995 on the scene....if anything?!?! Fank You!x

Edited April 18, 2013 by SOOTY

[Chalky]

Ray Agee, not Northern, some of you I think are on the wrong scene. It's a northern soul classic. Nothing happened to it Sooty, it is still played by those who are lucky enough to have a copy and why not, it is fantastic IMO, rams the dancefloor every time.

[Sooty]

Which Ray Agee are we talking about Chalky??!!!x The Losing record absolute guaranteed....of course!x But are you saying this other one i'm talking about...'I'm not looking back'....is Northern too???!!! If so...i'm so pleased to hear that! I have always liked the record....and would have danced to it meself no probs! When that piano/sax orchestra all 'bang' back down into the beat again is a definate 'spin' moment i've found!! What I mean is that it just had summink 'missing'...or 'extra'...that ensured it didn't make me 'tool box' of 100 records when 'on the move' doing 3 gigs a week-end trying not to play the same record twice!!! In essence...it didn;'t make me top 100 to 'share'!! If it has been played since I came across it....then BRILLIANT!!!x If not....then I could understand why the hesitation or thoughts! Hard to put a finger on this 'feeling' about it....but done me best to explain!x Whilst I understand folks 'passion' about music.....I have never took it too serious....I enjoy it all!...and try to share that joy as much as possible!x

LUV
SOOTY
X

Edited April 18, 2013 by SOOTY

[Louis]

At one time the only RnB on the Northern scene were Red and Browns

 

Louis

[Denbo]

.

Edited April 18, 2013 by denbo

[Chalky]

In didn't realise we were talking about another Sooty, I was trying to catch up with the topic when I posted so I must have missed that mention.

[Sooty]

No probs mate!x I come from a Norvern education kicking off with The Champion...Tainted love....and Dance Dance Dance the casualeers....first 3 tunes me mate played me in 1974! Still enjoy hearing them today....!! Footsie...and i remember Space by Magic Fly was in his collection of 'northern' back then too!!! 1 tune I never forgot and don;t see often that I always wanted to play at a gig was....Tom Jones....Hide and Seek!!!! STOOOOORMER!!! But never did!!hehe!x...tell me i'm wrong...!x

 

 

 

 

So i've had a wiiiide induction course...! However...my education on R&B has gone pear shape since leaving the scene 'actively'! I don;t know whats played today....and when I see chart records by soul singers discoey stuff calling itself 'R&B'....then....I dunno where to start these days! But...here are 3 of my tunes that I spun regular as an R&B flavour....my way of thinking...when stomping around the UK in the 90's!x

 

 

 

...and a stomper to go with 'em...

 

 

I see Mack Rice baby i'm comin home mentioned in the thread....another fav of mine to spin....and I always had this to play as the lights came on at Blackburn or any A/N I finished the night DJing at....at half volume....and always made me feel we'd had a good night!x Since then i;ve played it at full blast as the last record going on the deck with lights on....telling folk to drink up and help put stuff away at the end of a wedding/Barmtsfah or funeral!!! Good excuse mefinks....!x......and....and......they all smooch to it 'oblivious'....everytime......tune!!!x

@@
~
LUV
SOOTY
X

 

Edited April 18, 2013 by SOOTY

[Back Street Blue]

What were the definitive sounds played at the original (Brazenose Street) Twisted Wheel (i.e. when it was an RnB club, before the Soul tag)?

 

That must be the origin of RnB on, what subsequently evolved into the NS scene (i.e. in the context of RnB as a sub-genre of NS)  and may help to clarify some of the apparent confusion of how we pigeon hole stuff.

 

Just a thought! 

[Sceneman]

considering all the wrinkly rockers all cut their teeth on hard pumping R&B ,that appears to have gone off the radar ,newbie bands  wouldnt have a clue would they about R&B of the late 50s to early 60s.

such as that which spawned the super star wrinkly rockers , and who will replace them when theyve hung up their guitars and drums?

[Godzilla]

considering all the wrinkly rockers all cut their teeth on hard pumping R&B ,that appears to have gone off the radar ,newbie bands  wouldnt have a clue would they about R&B of the late 50s to early 60s.

such as that which spawned the super star wrinkly rockers , and who will replace them when theyve hung up their guitars and drums?

 

Really? From my experience every few years there comes along a new 60s RnB influenced band in the style of early Stones -  or even more likely the Pretty Things  - although a lot of them are filtered through the 9 Below Zero/Dr Feelgood style version.

 

Latest I've seen are the Strypes from Ireland

 

Here's an original (I think)  - Blue Collar Jane

https://youtu.be/rYPtYhhWVHw

 

and a cover of Got Love If You Want It

 

[Spacehopper]

considering all the wrinkly rockers all cut their teeth on hard pumping R&B ,that appears to have gone off the radar ,newbie bands  wouldnt have a clue would they about R&B of the late 50s to early 60s.

such as that which spawned the super star wrinkly rockers , and who will replace them when theyve hung up their guitars and drums?

with the internet and cd comps there is more 'original' rnb music available now to young bands in the uk than in the 60s..which also could be an answer to the question on rnb played at the wheel...mid 60s so lots of soul aswell as the rnb..but not as much available to hear as now!

 

dean

[Guest posstot]

I think a lot of the arguments here seem, moreso, to argue the fact that Northern Soul has nothing to do with RnB.   That is because Our ignorant claim to this music being British...All the Rhythm and Blues records, we call Northern are in actuality Rhythm and Blues.   The reason this banner applies is because, the term Race Music, or Race charts was abolished in favour ( or if you're american FavOR)...of a more politically correct term...  

    I would Imagine, they also thought long and hard about all the different influences into race music, before coming up with the term Rhythm and Blues.   This covers all the arguments for my money...Latin, Cuban, African, middle eastern, Chinese and South American are all thrown into the pot.  There influence is always heard through style and instrumentention.   Yet Blues, is the Key Element for me, as in regards to the vocal especially.  Anything else whatever the influence is Rhythmic, hence Rhythm and Blues.    Northern Soul, as we know it in this country, because of Dave Godins' initial inadvertant referance to the style of rhythm and blues music being played, for a more amphetamine based scene, in northern Britain became the tag.   Like Popcorn, is the Belgiums Tag for there equivalent scene, named because of the Popcorn club, and it's style, slower and freindlier to dance as a duo, as they do.  Yet for the greater part, All this music, that we tagged as Northern, the Yanks themselves as Shag, or Beach, the Belgiums as Popcorn.  It's all from the Rhythm and Blues Charts out of America..( with the odd exception/ copycat styles in other countries).

         So an argument saying that something isn't Northern soul, it's Rnb is like saying Rnb isn't Northern....It goes around in circles.   We have to recognise that we all listen to Rhythm and Blues, weather its influence is Gospel, jazz, Samba or pop.  the Northern scene picks out what collectively is believed to be danceable rhythm and blues.   Argue all you want about definitions.  Northern Soul at its very existance is Rhythm and Blues.

 

Go on, i've got my pads on.

[Pete S]

  Northern Soul at its very existance is Rhythm and Blues.

 

 

 

You don't say.

Breaking news: Man lands on moon.

Anyway you're wrong.

Mickey Moonshine, Frankie & Johnny, John Andrews, Chapter Five, Ray Merrell, Frankie Valli, all Northern Soul classics, which ones are the R & B ones out of those?

Edited April 20, 2013 by Pete S

[Guest posstot]

You don't say.

Breaking news: Man lands on moon.

Anyway you're wrong.

Mickey Moonshine, Frankie & Johnny, John Andrews, Chapter Five, Ray Merrell, Frankie Valli, all Northern Soul classics, which ones are the R & B ones out of those?

 

 

As i mentioned, "copycat styles", "from other countries".   Your a bit on the offensive arent you Pete. ( are you due a valium?

)

[Pete S]

As i mentioned, "copycat styles", "from other countries".   Your a bit on the offensive arent you Pete. ( are you due a valium?

)

 

Not at all.

I am a bit stir crazy from not having any internet for 3 days though.

[Bazza]

We know most of what we listen to is Basically R&B ,but that has been divided into sub genres, not just by us ,this has been happening since the middle 40's ,Jive. R&R Northern  R&B and Blues ,but all of it was really R&B ,this topic has got a bit daft,

 

Bazza 

Edited April 20, 2013 by Bazza

[Guest DJ Col]

 

Ain't that the truth!

 

I've been 'into' Rhythm and Blues' since the late 50s.  Back then it was basically about people like Chuck Berry/Bo Diddley/Big Joe Turner/Howlin' Wolf/JimmyReed/John Lee Hooker etc., etc.

But we also started to regard the classic 'Doo Wop' bands as R&B., so the Falcons, The Penguins, The Riveleers, The Flamingoes etc.etc., also became part of RnB

Then you can add in my hero Ray Charles, who did blues, soul, gospel, country and just about everything to the max.  And obviously most of the output of labels like Stax/Atlantic/Motown (and its 'sub' labels), Minit, Cameo Parkway etc.etc

And for most of us who were kids in the early 60's the Yardbirds and other bands brought us 'Anglicised' versions of established American R&B classics, such as the Yardbirds 'Good Morning Little Schoolgirl', (Don and Bob?) The Stones 'Little Red Rooster' ( Howlin' Wolf/Chester Burnett) etc., etc.

 

Practically all of the music I played at the 360 Club Bulwell from around 1968-1971 has gone on to be claimed by the 'Northern' crowd, but it existed long before Dave Godin came up with the term Northern Soul.

 

Northern Soul is not a musical genre.  It never has been.  It is simply a construct, or a label, attached to a lot of excellent music which falls neatly into a certain 'vibe'.  There's nothing wrong with that, but it is not a musical genre.  FFS, there are white pop groups in there! (Nu-Beats anyone ?)

 

Carry on loving the music.  I do. But please don't fall into the ever decreasing circle of looking for rarer and more obscure 'Nothern Soul'

 

It isn't there.

 

Enjoy what there is, but most of all explore the music.  All of it, from all genres, and from all times.

 

There's a guy on my other favourite website who uses this 'Strapline'

 

'So much music. so little time'.

 

Get it while you can!

 

Love to you all.

 

DJ Col

Edited April 21, 2013 by DJ Col

[Guest penny]

You don't say.

Breaking news: Man lands on moon.

Anyway you're wrong.

Mickey Moonshine, Frankie & Johnny, John Andrews, Chapter Five, Ray Merrell, Frankie Valli, all Northern Soul classics, which ones are the R & B ones out of those?

Of course we established very early that by one definition it's all r&b but I think the sub-divisions that the real enthusiasts have come up with are far more interesting and informative, hence r&b and northern and popcorn and funk and crossover become distinct but sometimes interlinked styles. That's settled I think...

anyway, pete , If you mean john andrewd 'its just love', I always consider this a prime although untypically sophisticated example of british r&b so it goes to show how records can often be seen from different perspectives. Always played it in mod / r&b clubs and didnt know it was a northern spin for a long time.

Please could you tell me if and where I could hear the original, I assume it was never released.

Cheers

[Pete S]

Of course we established very early that by one definition it's all r&b but I think the sub-divisions that the real enthusiasts have come up with are far more interesting and informative, hence r&b and northern and popcorn and funk and crossover become distinct but sometimes interlinked styles. That's settled I think...

anyway, pete , If you mean john andrewd 'its just love', I always consider this a prime although untypically sophisticated example of british r&b so it goes to show how records can often be seen from different perspectives. Always played it in mod / r&b clubs and didnt know it was a northern spin for a long time.

Please could you tell me if and where I could hear the original, I assume it was never released.

Cheers

 

You can hear it on one of my podcasts...actually this one has tons of unissued and rare tracks on it, it's past half way if thats any help

 

https://www.mixcloud.com/mayfairmenthol/for-northern-soul-connoisseurs-everywhere/

[Guest penny]

You can hear it on one of my podcasts...actually this one has tons of unissued and rare tracks on it, it's past half way if thats any help

 

Click here to see it on Mixcloud

First time ive heard it, brilliant & nice mix too, thanks.

[Anais nin Carms]

I think R&B has lots of sub genres 

 

White R&B - Examples  Stevie Winward /Tony Joe White 

Gritty R&B -  Jimmy Norman

Rockin R&B - Little Willy John

Gospal R&B - Patcience Vallentine

Modern R&B - Y2K

Popcorn - Slow provocative

Hideaway R&B - Early years with a blusey influence

 

I think as in all genres there will be some you love and hate , for me personally I can leave out the popcorn in large measures , the odd one is ok