Current Day Bootlegs And Bootleggers

[Mick Sway]

 

 

Is this item he's selling legal?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Stevens-Foster-I-Want-To-Be-Love-Northern-Soul-Vinyl-45-Listen-/140947424084?pt=UK_Records&hash=item20d11f0354

Legit, see here:

[Guest DeeJay]

I know I should get exercised about all this but whilst old boots seem to be sold by everybody, and the only eyebrow raised is the price some fetch, then I just see it as a double standard. Only thing that seperates them is time.

 

And I have 2 boots of Mayfield Singers and Jimmy Ruffin. Only way I could get on vinyl. And yes I have Ruffin CD. So now and again the bootleggers do provide a service which the legit companies dont.

 

ROD

Rod i dont class anything a boot thats been put out on vinyl for the first time. As a boot i know thats not the correct way to look at it. Obviously anything on vinyl that's sold with the company or singer not reciving money or unauthorized is a technically a boot.Stuff that comes out on vinyl from a cd that was never issued on vinyl ironically is orinal vinyl (just a loop hole!)  I play only original viny, but sometimes getting original vinyl is impossible, if it's only a one off "Marrying kind" is an example although the copy i have isnt as good quality as the original one off, I still play it now and agian, becuase expectations of owning the one original are slim to none. However, i have a Tomangoes boot bought way back in the day. This i reserve for home, as copies are avialble albeit seldom.Not sure if this makes sense but im sure you get the gist of it.

[Raremusicdirect]

Its interesting that many of the bootlegs are deemed poor quality and yet the argument for vinyl (over digital) is its quality and fullness of sound.

 

I can't fully understand someone wanting to have the track, but not taking the time (or having the budget) to find an original, proceeding to have a poor quality bootleg.

 

Wouldn't they be better having a digital (possibly re mastered copy) they could play on cd or mp3.

 

This would help protect the original vinyl.

 

Why are boots made at all now on vinyl ?  

 

Is it economics preventing it being done on mp3 or cd ?   Or are the buyers in the market place for these boots only tuned in to doing so on vinyl ? 

[Premium Stuff]

Here's another one 

 

Looks pretty much like the original in a scan.

 

Richard

 

Click on the image to see a bigger pic

Edited April 21, 2013 by Premium Stuff

[Ernie Andrews]

I had my say on this topic some time back and my thoughts are still the same. I have not a problem with boots being made especially cuts of very hard to get records for anyone who can not afford the real deal, as long as they look nothing like the originals or have a distinctive difference on the label. I collect expensive records and get pissed off when I see like for like labels when there is no reason for it, they would still buy them on white labels.

IN the 70s a boot was the only way to get a tune to play at home but today their is no need for it with Youtube/cds and downloads. A lot of these people who buy these want their 15 miutes of fame playing them at soul nights - So would you be happy PK seeing someone playing a big tune off a bootleg white label when you just spent 2k of your hard earned cash on the original only a week before and was looking forward to playing it out at the same venue.

[Marc Forrest]

Here's another one 

 

Looks pretty much like the original in a scan.

 

Richard

 

Click on the image to see a bigger pic

I only ever saw blue issues of it, no red ones ?

[Marc Forrest]

best line of last week was when a mate told me about all those new places in this city (Berlin) that play Soul...most I didnt even know about LOL..anyway, while he was naming them all one by one (think we counted about ten) he mentioned .."Oh no, right, these guys have just stopped and sold their records"..I asked him "really? why?" his reply came "they sold up because they said its no use to deejay anymore as everybody else is playing the same bootlegs as they are!"...PMSL LOL !!!!!

[Guest The Record Box]

MMM i think this boot legging is "catching on"........i'll get me coat no wonder i never made it as a comedian

 

It is sad that it happens but how many of us had copies in the good old days, when we were young and skint that fuelled this type of person, many of us got wise and changed, a lot dont care..... sad and maddening, but it will always happen no matter how much we now protest

 

 

geeooooordie

There was a time many years ago when people were selling the originals off cheap because they got pressed. What a pity people did not have the knowledge at that time

[Steve G]

There was a time many years ago when people were selling the originals off cheap because they got pressed. What a pity people did not have the knowledge at that time

 

Yes but the scene has always been awash with "transient" record collectors. As a long term collector we've seen them suddenly appear, flash the cash, buy the big ticket items, and then dissapear just as quickly as they appeared. Been going on since the early 70's.

 

My definition of a bootleg is anything where royalties ain't paid. So Rod's unissued material "made available on vinyl" will likely fall foul of the bootleg line

[Guest The Record Box]

Yes but the scene has always been awash with "transient" record collectors. As a long term collector we've seen them suddenly appear, flash the cash, buy the big ticket items, and then dissapear just as quickly as they appeared. Been going on since the early 70's.

 

My definition of a bootleg is anything where royalties ain't paid. So Rod's unissued material "made available on vinyl" will likely fall foul of the bootleg line

I paid a staggering 170 pounds for Lou Pride at that time, lived off bread and water for the rest of the week.

[Steve G]

We've all been there. Spent all my weeks money on one record at Wigan etc. Begged and borrowed and walked everywhere etc...

[Modernsoulsucks]

I think you might find Mr G that I said I had two bootlegs.

 

It was Dee Jay who in reply to me said

 

"Rod i dont class anything a boot thats been put out on vinyl for the first time"

 

They are boots IMO but I dont care. I wanted them and I think quality is OK. In fact following the Gwen Owens thread I now consider anything that wasn't the first 45 off the press as merely a pale reproduction.

 

I've got OVO coming out my ears and up my fundament !

 

ROD

[Guest ruppy]

Who keeps pressing these high end beauties?

ROBERT BURNETT

[Guest The Record Box]

ROBERT BURNETT

Must be cruisin for a bruisin.

[Premium Stuff]

I only ever saw blue issues of it, no red ones ?

 

Hi Marc

 

Issues are red I believe - you got a scan of a blue one?

 

Cheers

 

Richard

[Marc Forrest]

 

IN the 70s a boot was the only way to get a tune to play at home but today their is no need for it with Youtube/cds and downloads. A lot of these people who buy these want their 15 miutes of fame playing them at soul nights - So would you be happy PK seeing someone playing a big tune off a bootleg white label when you just spent 2k of your hard earned cash on the original only a week before and was looking forward to playing it out at the same venue.

 

"so would you be happy..?" no, dont think so. in fact I believe I would take that bloody piece of s**T off the turntable and either throw it across the hall or break it into two parts. once closed my box and walked out the venue I was booked to deejay at when I realised one of the organizers was playing boots. but back then that was me being patient, understandng and young. nowdays I tend to just loose my temper.

[Marc Forrest]

 

Hi Marc

 

Issues are red I believe - you got a scan of a blue one?

 

Cheers

 

Richard

sorry richard, dont have a scan. not being able to call a copy my own I have to rely on my memory which may be playing tricks on me...wouldnt be the first and sure wont be the last time ;)

[Pk 22dj]

So you don't mind the artist being ripped off as long as it doesn't impact your collection.The hypocrisy of Northern Soul summed up in a paragraph.Buy the f***ng legit CD is surely the answer and bootlegging means less chance of that happening. What you do after that, carver of the CD track etc, as dodgy as that may be, I couldn't care.

Your right mate "I'm only interested in me and not the artist". They can be happy in the knowledge that some failed number they recorded some 40yrs ago amongst millions of others finally got a bit of recognition, I know I would be.

[Pete S]

 

 

"so would you be happy..?" no, dont think so. in fact I believe I would take that bloody piece of s**T off the turntable and either throw it across the hall or break it into two parts. 

 

I've often heard this quote.

I suspect you'd follow it across the hall -

Nobody has the right to touch anyone else's records.

[Dave Rimmer]

ROBERT BURNETT

 

 

Just for the sake of accuracy, the name he goes by is ROBIN Burnett, quite ironic really.

[Kjw]

Just for the sake of accuracy, the name he goes by is ROBIN Burnett, quite ironic really.

 

Hasn't this guy been prosecuted in the past for bootlegging records

 

I would have thought he's risking a lengthy spell inside if he's doing it again

[jocko]

Your right mate "I'm only interested in me and not the artist". They can be happy in the knowledge that some failed number they recorded some 40yrs ago amongst millions of others finally got a bit of recognition, I know I would be.

Okay, so here is how the conversation goes.

Ady C here, hi unknown artist who wrote a very obscure record a very long time ago, how are you.

I am fine Mr C, (scratching his head and trying desperately to remember the record) struggling to feed my self and keep a roof over my head in these trying times, USA don't like poor folk.

Yes, well hopefully I can help, if you allow me to include your record on one of my company CD's we can sell a few and you get you some money, it won't make you rich but it will hopefully help and let you see people love your music. We will try our very best for you.

That sounds good to me, and yes it would be good to know my work was appreciated. And get paid for it.

Some months later.

Ady C here again, bad news I am afraid, someone has bootlegged your record and as a result its not right time to release it.

Oh, when will be right time.

Difficult to say really, as it fitted in with the overall theme of CD, not sure if we will get enough sales for a part 2.

Oh, so I won't get paid.

Fraid not.

Does this bootlegger get paid.

Yes, probably more than you would have for CD royalties.

Artist silently scratches his head and the silence continues,

Ady C, feeling the disappointment says

but I have been told to tell you that lots of people somewhere are playing an illegal copy rather than a CD of your record to 30 of their mates in a dilapadated hall in the middle of nowhere so you are appreciated.

Artists sobs and hangs up.

Meanwhile Freddy Fuckwit in that far away hall plays the record, singing happily, counts the door money he makes from his night and plans his next 3 new bootleg purchases from the supply to order service that is one click away……..

[jocko]

Im not having a go at you but i do hear this discussion about the Artists being ripped off...... they have been since day one and its totally wrong and i think even the legit soul scene has done that for years, the chances of most of the artists or writers getting any type of royalty is next to dead, but how many soul venues act illigally by not producing playlists and not submitting them to PRS so that artists can get royalties, or how many venues actually take or have took a moral stand and say X% of the door is going to the artists played tonight.

I think the answer is None...so your right the hypocrisy of Northern soul.....even by people like me who do collect orginals is actually shameful.

I hear and read a lot on this site and been part of the OVO brigade bangers but because they/we/I are buying original we think weve done our bit for that artist...well what exactly did we or the seller we bought off give back to the artists? oh unless it was a new release.

How much money do you think the likes of Tobi Legend or Dean Parrish should have had everytime their tracks were played on the soul scene?? if we did contribute properly

Yipee I bought real ones but the artist got feck all

So in essence are we ripping the artists off as much as the bootleggers...one for thought

Geeooooooodie

You can't be having a go at me as you have gone off on a complete tangent, not unusual I appreciate but…

My point was purely about justification of modern day bootlegs against legally sanctioned release methods that are available,

Trying yet again to link buying second hand records to artists paydays is tediously stupid and just another flavour of our beloved OVO argument. And wrong. And as for new releases I buy about 20 a month. Thank you.

[Benji]

Jock, you assume that artist holds the rights for the record. I guess in 9 of 10 cases the artist doesn't hold any rights to his own material.

[jocko]

 

Jock, you assume that artist holds the rights for the record. I guess in 9 of 10 cases the artist doesn't hold any rights to his own material.

 

Yes I am or otherwise it would ruin my point. Cmon Benji you don't normally live up to your countrys stereotypes don't go all literall on me. I suspect Ady would say more than 1 in 10 get some money from them, but over to him.

I did think of putting in caveat that artist may actually be a lawyer for a multi national company like Universal, but it didn't change the point, just reduced the sympathy!

[Pete S]

Jock, you assume that artist holds the rights for the record. I guess in 9 of 10 cases the artist doesn't hold any rights to his own material.

 

Very true, and how many times have we heard from artists who said that not only did they not receive any royalties at the time, but didn't even know their record had been released?  Sam E Solo on Imperial for instance - I'm sure he said he had no idea that it had been released on a major.

Not defending bootleggers but the must have been a massive amount of skullduggery going on within the music industry itself at that time.

[Marc Forrest]

I've often heard this quote.

I suspect you'd follow it across the hall -

Nobody has the right to touch anyone else's records.

As much as nobody has the right to touch anyone elses (copy-)rights..for example in selling or playing bootlegs. Sidenote: Beside having lost some serious weight over the last year I still doubt anyone would be able to actually "throw" me (oranyone else) across the hall. Asking me to leave that sanother question and a wish I only to likely would fullfill in teh given scenario... 

[Modernsoulsucks]

This too may be at something of a tangent but what about artist "screwing" poor struggling Northern fan ?

 

When Alex Jones and myself met Gino Washington and got him to put "Rat Race"  on vinyl he didn't use the B-side we requested nor did he send all the copies we paid for. Instead we got copies of Tomangos. Rest of "Rat Race" press went to another dealer.

 

Nobody knows the trouble we seen over that.

 

ROD

[Wiggyflat]

I wonder if these bootleggers would dabble in Roulette stuff ....I'm sure that labels owners used to dabble in concrete loafers.There's one south east bootlegger that has moved onto late 50 s stuff avoiding copyright laws apparently...he will meet his eldarado.

[Wiggyflat]

Marc I was in Cologne at a bar the other week and spotted a bootleg of No One Could Love you more being played....I was going to call Matthew Hopkins.

[Ady Croasdell]

Very true, and how many times have we heard from artists who said that not only did they not receive any royalties at the time, but didn't even know their record had been released?  Sam E Solo on Imperial for instance - I'm sure he said he had no idea that it had been released on a major.

Not defending bootleggers but the must have been a massive amount of skullduggery going on within the music industry itself at that time.

Almost by definition with Northern Soul acts the artist received next to sod all at the time as the records didn't sell-I know a few did but we're talking generally here. The record companies also charged costs against the recording and often weren't liable to pay royalties until those costs had been covered. The phrase used in the music business is "in the hole" meaning they are in negative royalty as the costs are more than the record has earnt.

 

However if we approach an artist on a label that we have bought we usually (maybe always, I'm not 100 % sure) wipe the slate clean and start them off with a new standard royalty contract. Sam E Solo will finally get some royalties now the Pied Piper deal has been set up if we can contact him, I think Dave W has his details.

 

There was skullduggery ndeed but hopefully we have learnt from that and treat people better. Artists do often misunderstand the situation. One artist who we have always gone out of our way to help once complained that a CD they were on had sold 126,567 copies but we had only accounted for a couple of thousand. I asked her where she had got her figures from and she said her daughter had seen it on Amazon. On investigation it was the 126, 567th best seller on the site at the time!

[Ady Croasdell]

This too may be at something of a tangent but what about artist "screwing" poor struggling Northern fan ?

When Alex Jones and myself met Gino Washington and got him to put "Rat Race" on vinyl he didn't use the B-side we requested nor did he send all the copies we paid for. Instead we got copies of Tomangos. Rest of "Rat Race" press went to another dealer.

Nobody knows the trouble we seen over that.

ROD

Yep artists can be as bad as exploitative label owners. Luckily there aren't many of either types in the business (percentage wise), i find musicians and singers to be honourable and most indie record label owners didn't expect to make a fortune. Edited April 23, 2013 by ady croasdell

[Ady Croasdell]

Im not having a go at you but i do hear this discussion about the Artists being ripped off...... they have been since day one and its totally wrong and i think even the legit soul scene has done that for years, the chances of most of the artists or writers getting any type of royalty is next to dead, but how many soul venues act illigally by not producing playlists and not submitting them to PRS so that artists can get royalties, or how many venues actually take or have took a moral stand and say X% of the door is going to the artists played tonight.

 

I think the answer is None...so your right the hypocrisy of Northern soul.....even by people like me who do collect orginals is actually shameful.

I hear and read a lot on this site and been part of the OVO brigade bangers but because they/we/I are buying original we think weve done our bit for that artist...well what exactly did we or the seller we bought off give back to the artists? oh unless it was a new release.

 

How much money do you think the likes of Tobi Legend or Dean Parrish should have had everytime their tracks were played on the soul scene?? if we did contribute properly

Yipee I bought real ones but the artist got feck all

 

 

So in essence are we ripping the artists off as much as the bootleggers...one for thought

 

 

Geeooooooodie

No the chances aren't next to dead, we and similar companies pay royalties and publishing. It's funny you used Tobi Legend as an example we've been paying her royalties for years as Tobi Lark. If you want to contribute and ain't got the fabulous Dave Hamilton CDs with her songs on them buy them today and she will earn off them  . Ady

[Ady Croasdell]

 

 

Yes I am or otherwise it would ruin my point. Cmon Benji you don't normally live up to your countrys stereotypes don't go all literall on me. I suspect Ady would say more than 1 in 10 get some money from them, but over to him.

I did think of putting in caveat that artist may actually be a lawyer for a multi national company like Universal, but it didn't change the point, just reduced the sympathy!

No idea of the ration but I know we have a lot of royalty accounts for artists as well as label owners, and writers are even better protected than artists. When a certain company was bootlegging CDs by claiming they had the rights but didn't, they actually had to pay the publishing as it is a better protected area. Where a lot of people go wrong intentionally or not is in saying we've paid the publishing so it's all covered.

[Pk 22dj]

Okay, so here is how the conversation goes.Ady C here, hi unknown artist who wrote a very obscure record a very long time ago, how are you.I am fine Mr C, (scratching his head and trying desperately to remember the record) struggling to feed my self and keep a roof over my head in these trying times, USA don't like poor folk.Yes, well hopefully I can help, if you allow me to include your record on one of my company CD's we can sell a few and you get you some money, it won't make you rich but it will hopefully help and let you see people love your music. We will try our very best for you.That sounds good to me, and yes it would be good to know my work was appreciated. And get paid for it.Some months later.Ady C here again, bad news I am afraid, someone has bootlegged your record and as a result its not right time to release it.Oh, when will be right time.Difficult to say really, as it fitted in with the overall theme of CD, not sure if we will get enough sales for a part 2.Oh, so I won't get paid.Fraid not.Does this bootlegger get paid.Yes, probably more than you would have for CD royalties.Artist silently scratches his head and the silence continues,Ady C, feeling the disappointment saysbut I have been told to tell you that lots of people somewhere are playing an illegal copy rather than a CD of your record to 30 of their mates in a dilapadated hall in the middle of nowhere so you are appreciated.Artists sobs and hangs up.Meanwhile Freddy Fuckwit in that far away hall plays the record, singing happily, counts the door money he makes from his night and plans his next 3 new bootleg purchases from the supply to order service that is one click away……..

What door money are you talking about ?, these boots are and should be played at home I and not at soul nights etc, therefore not used as anything else. There is nothing if anything made on my doors at any of my soul do's due to the fact I don't do this for money and nor do most decent soul night organisers.

Fxxk me I'm a well off ex builder and nobody comes up to me and says that ball cock you fitted in 1979 is brilliant here's another £50, that's life get on with it.

[jocko]

What door money are you talking about ?, these boots are and should be played at home I and not at soul nights etc, therefore not used as anything else. There is nothing if anything made on my doors at any of my soul do's due to the fact I don't do this for money and nor do most decent soul night organisers.

Fxxk me I'm a well off ex builder and nobody comes up to me and says that ball cock you fitted in 1979 is brilliant here's another £50, that's life get on with it.

Jeez, how many points can you miss in one go, try reading the words. And here is a clue, as is often said to me, its not all about you....

Anyway think thats enough about us, I was tempted to make a sarky comment about your last sentence but good comedy writes itself to quote one of that famous Sheffield bard Franklin's pearl of wisdom.

Ady, have I told you that I loved you lately?

[Steve G]

Almost by definition with Northern Soul acts the artist received next to sod all at the time as the records didn't sell-I know a few did but we're talking generally here. The record companies also charged costs against the recording and often weren't liable to pay royalties until those costs had been covered. The phrase used in the music business is "in the hole" meaning they are in negative royalty as the costs are more than the record has earnt.

 

However if we approach an artist on a label that we have bought we usually (maybe always, I'm not 100 % sure) wipe the slate clean and start them off with a new standard royalty contract. Sam E Solo will finally get some royalties now the Pied Piper deal has been set up if we can contact him, I think Dave W has his details.

 

There was skullduggery ndeed but hopefully we have learnt from that and treat people better. Artists do often misunderstand the situation. One artist who we have always gone out of our way to help once complained that a CD they were on had sold 126,567 copies but we had only accounted for a couple of thousand. I asked her where she had got her figures from and she said her daughter had seen it on Amazon. On investigation it was the 126, 567th best seller on the site at the time!

 

Reminds me of when I first spoke to Lou Pride about his northern material before the first time he came over here etc.

I saw he had a new CD coming out and contacted him via his label and interviewed him on Radio (this would have been 1999 / 2000 I think). At the time he was convinced "I'm comun home in the mornun" had been No.1 in the UK charts and that he'd been cheated out of all his money and should have made a tidy sum from it. I had to put him right (not particularly pleasant), but that record alone has probably sold in excess of 10,000 on various boots over the years.

.......

 

Of course it goes without saying that not all artists own their material, but for anyone that scoffs about artists and royalties, you need look no further than the late great Mr Pride - one of youur 'NS Top 500' dudes, who both wrote and owned most of his material, and who time and time again was denied the success he deserved and who struggled on until the end in relative poverty.

Edited April 24, 2013 by Steve G

[Md Records]

It's a murky business, even when done legally, it's not always clear cut.

- Although you've paid the owner of the track to put out the record, should you pay the person who owns the record label design before using their design?

- If you've paid to put the track out on a C.D. , does this also give you the right to press 1000 copies onto a 45?

- Is there any need for 1000 test pressings, before contemplating a release?

- Even though the artist may not be entitled to any money, do you feel a moral obligation to give them something?

- If someone tells you they own the rights to a song. and you're not sure, but signs the contract with you, then you're covered?

- If you press up a record, then promise to pay the owner some cash, if they get in touch some day - is this ok?

- If you don't know who the artist/owner is on this untitled acetate, can you put it out, as it's in the public's interest?

 

All hypothetical questions, of course

 

Des Parker

[Ady Croasdell]

 

It's a murky business, even when done legally, it's not always clear cut.

- Although you've paid the owner of the track to put out the record, should you pay the person who owns the record label design before using their design?

That's a bit of an unlikely scenario Des, usually they will be the same parson and it would be part of the deal, often you would be issuing it on your own label eg Kent and if not why would you want to issue it on the label it was licensed to? If you did use it you would technically have to pay the original design holder eg if we put J T Rhythm out on Palmer. It's OK to use the label in a booklet but if you used their label and logo you are selling of its reputation so its fair enough to pay.

- If you've paid to put the track out on a C.D. , does this also give you the right to press 1000 copies onto a 45?

Totally depends on the license you've done. If you've said its for CD only then no. If you've said its for all formats yes.

- Is there any need for 1000 test pressings, before contemplating a release?

No

- Even though the artist may not be entitled to any money, do you feel a moral obligation to give them something?

He is entitled, from the label owner, we actually administer payments to artists on behalf of the label owners to save them the accounting. If you think the label owner isn't paying the artsit you could contribute something when you're in profit.

- If someone tells you they own the rights to a song. and you're not sure, but signs the contract with you, then you're covered?

Legally you are unless it can be proved by the true owner or his agent that you knew the rights weren't owned when you sigend the contract.

- If you press up a record, then promise to pay the owner some cash, if they get in touch some day - is this ok?

No, what right have you to do that?

- If you don't know who the artist/owner is on this untitled acetate, can you put it out, as it's in the public's interest?

No you need to find who paid for the acetate to be made. If it is very unlikely you could ever find them you could have a case for licensing from the artist for the music, not for the publishing,that would have to be dealt with separately.

 

All hypothetical questions, of course

The laws are reasonably clear, it's just that many UK potential record pressers don't know how it works and aren't inclined to find out because it will cost them

See you Friday maybe?

Ady

 

Des Parker

 

[Md Records]

All as I suspected, and answered by the company that shows how reissues SHOULD be done!!!

 

Des