Innocent Bystanders On Pameline - Who Were They?

[Premium Stuff]

The current 'instrumental' thread got me thinking about who the Innocent Bystanders were.

 

On one side of this disc is the iconic Detroit instrumental 'Frantic Escape'. However, the other side is a funky vocal number called 'Crime (Doesn't Pay)'.

 

The vocals sure remind me of someone, but I can't pin it down, and it got me thinking who were the Innocent Bystanders?

 

Hopefully someone on here will know - so thanks in advance for any info 

 

Cheers

 

Richard

Edited March 27, 2013 by Premium Stuff

[Rob Moss]

Popcorn (piano) Mike Terry (baritone sax.) Dave Hamilton (vibes) Robert Finch (drums) Jamerson (bass) according to Popcorn on 'Frantic escape'

Edited March 24, 2013 by Rob Moss

[Ric-tic]

didnt somebody suggest on here in the recent past that a vocal version does exist?

[Premium Stuff]

Thanks guys 

 

Anyone know who was singing on Crime (Doesn't Pay)?

 

Cheers

 

Richard

[KevH]

didnt somebody suggest on here in the recent past that a vocal version does exist?

 

 

Hoping,more like.!!

[Premium Stuff]

Anyone got any idea who the singers were please?

 

Found a YouTube clip 

 

Bit of a "War" type thing going on - huhh! 

 

The demo only has this track unfortunately - not "Frantic Escape" on it.

 

Cheers

 

Richard

 

Edited March 27, 2013 by Premium Stuff

[Glyn Sisson]

Hi the Inoccent bystander was the name of the group that came to be the carstais who did it realy hurts me girl and Cleavland Horn was the singer.

Hope this helps.

Glyn

[Premium Stuff]

Hi Glyn

 

Thanks for the info 

 

What was the source of this, can you share please?

 

Cheers

 

Richard

[Glyn Sisson]

Going by memory the Carstairs was on in Blackpool and a friend of mine picked them up from a London airport , on the way to Blackpool he brought them to my house for a cup of tea , me and Cleavland was talking soul when he told me they was the Inocent Bystandres i told him i had Frantic Escape on Atlantic records he said it was not possible has he never recorded for Atlantic so i looked for my copy and the Pameline demo of Crime Doesnt Pay he said on his return to the States he would see a solicitor to ask for royalties, before he left he sighned both copys and if you would like to see i would be happy to show you .

Hope this helps

Glyn

[Chalky]

What was the rest of the group on Crime Doesn't Pay?  I can believe Cleveland Horne singing on it (as he moved about from what I've read) but the whole of the Carstairs Group?  What was the Carstairs line up? 

[Glyn Sisson]

Sorry cant remember it was Kev Thomas ,Rob Thomas younger brother who picked them up from the Airport,I think they stayed at his house in Draycott Derbyshire for the night before carrying on to Blackpool the next day.One of the two brothers may remember.

Glyn

[Glyn Sisson]

[Glyn Sisson]

If you click on the above records they can be blown up to enlarge you can see cleavlands autograph.

Glyn

[Premium Stuff]

Thanks Glyn - much appreciated - quite brings your story to life 

 

Cheers

 

Richard

[45cellar]

 

 

[Glyn Sisson]

[Glyn Sisson]

Above is an original Pameline news flyer .

Glyn

[Agentsmith]

thats astounding!...no known connection until you exposed it glyn...the session musicians on frantic escape though are still the funk brothers, aren't they?

[Premium Stuff]

thats astounding!...no known connection until you exposed it glyn...the session musicians on frantic escape though are still the funk brothers, aren't they?

 

See Rob's post #2 above for the band line-up

 

Cheers

 

Richard

[Glyn Sisson]

Hi just been routing through my junk box and found the adresses of some of the Carstairs.

Eruin Langley

Lakeside

NJ

 

Paul

Detroit

 

and Cleavland Horn who by the way passed away a couple of years ago

Detroit

These adresses was given to me by the band members.I have full adresses and telephone numbers for obvious reasons i have with held that information

Glyn

[Glyn Sisson]

PS

the Carstairs who sang He who picks a rose on Okeh records was not the same group who sings it realy hurts me girl,No i dont know who they was .

Any Info?

Glyn

[Tricky]

After all the visits Popcorn had from various peeps on the scene and that lovely flyer put up by Glyn anybody had an acetate or tape with a Lures recording?

[KevH]

Fuuny you should mention The Lures.....as i have no information at all about them.!! I've Googled the life out of them....where's Roburt when you need him?

 

After all the visits Popcorn had from various peeps on the scene and that lovely flyer put up by Glyn anybody had an acetate or tape with a Lures recording?

[Blackpoolsoul]

On 31/03/2013 at 17:15, Glyn Sisson said:

Hi just been routing through my junk box and found the adresses of some of the Carstairs.

Eruin Langley

Lakeside

NJ

 

Paul

Detroit

 

and Cleavland Horn who by the way passed away a couple of years ago

Detroit

These adresses was given to me by the band members.I have full adresses and telephone numbers for obvious reasons i have with held that information

Glyn

I know this thread is "old" but would the Paul be Paul Scott who was also in the Fantastic Four

[Blackpoolsoul]

On 03/04/2013 at 11:06, Glyn Sisson said:

PS

the Carstairs who sang He who picks a rose on Okeh records was not the same group who sings it realy hurts me girl,No i dont know who they was .

Any Info?

Glyn

According to Ian Levine's video here they were the same group, and I always thought they weren't, my head is now getting mashed, but at my age that is no surprise

These are Ian's comments

This song by The Carstairs is a cover of the Motown song originally by Jimmy Ruffin, but this was initially unreleased, and then released by Edwin Starr. It was a massive Northern Soul monster, but nowhere near in the same league as their iconic classic, "It Really Hurts Me Girl", which was the biggest record EVER at Blackpool Mecca. Back in the day, when there was no internet, we could never locate the group, despite many attempts. In 1998, for the unique one-off Blackpool Mecca reunion, I was just determined to find them, and after four months of searching, I did. Twenty five years after they thought their single had never even been released, they were on stage at Blackpool Mecca, singing it on the Saturday night in front of over a thousand people, in the Highland Room which was only supposed to hold seven hundred. They were moved to tears, especially Cleveland Horne, and founder member Ervin Langley. Tragically, within two years, the two of them had passed away. But at least they got to stand just once in the limelight. It could never ever happen again, it was a one time moment in history and because of the iconic nature of their record, this footage is priceless beyond belief. They performed three songs, "It Really Hurts Me Girl", a version of The Salvadors "Stick Byy Me Baby", and this one, "He Who Picks A Rose".

 

[Blackpoolsoul]

These are related to Cleveland and I have added the Okeh Carstairs for comments on the query as to "same" group and were this "Prophets" anything to do with the "Georgia Prophets" ?

Edited March 15, 2019 by Blackpoolsoul
updated

[Louise]

The Innocent Bystanders were a duo that Popcorn Wylie put together to record the vocal "Crime Doesn't Pay" backed by the throw away Instrumental  "Frantic Escape". The Duo were James Holland of the Holidays on Marathon , Rob Ron, Ron Hol, & The New Holidays on Soul Hawk, and also his solo 45 outings on Blue Rock  and Syco. I have yet or more to the point James remembering his co performers name. James when questioned remembers the release of the promo copies but was blissfully unaware of the 45 been actually issued on Pameline and later being picked up by Atlantic.

Regards

Dave Welding.

[Blackpoolsoul]

3 minutes ago, Louise said:

The Innocent Bystanders were a duo that Popcorn Wylie put together to record the vocal "Crime Doesn't Pay" backed by the throw away Instrumental  "Frantic Escape". The Duo were James Holland of the Holidays on Marathon , Rob Ron, Ron Hol, & The New Holidays on Soul Hawk, and also his solo 45 outings on Blue Rock  and Syco. I have yet or more to the point James remembering his co performers name. James when questioned remembers the release of the promo copies but was blissfully unaware of the 45 been actually issued on Pameline and later being picked up by Atlantic.

Regards

Dave Welding.

So was Cleveland Horne lead on "Crime Doesn't Pay" as discussed above

[Blackpoolsoul]

Here is some info I found relating to Cleveland and mentions groups and of course his relationship with "The Fantastic Four"

https://badcatrecords.com/BadCat/FANTASTICfour.htm

 

Edited March 15, 2019 by Blackpoolsoul

[Chalky]

12 hours ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

Here is some info I found relating to Cleveland and mentions groups and of course his relationship with "The Fantastic Four"

https://badcatrecords.com/BadCat/FANTASTICfour.htm

 

It seems they weren't too sure about when who was in the group at any particular period and just put everyone down through the different eras?  

Cleveland cannot have been in all the line ups, the Carstairs was a 73 recording, was it not until after this that he joined the FF, as in 1975?  Horne and Newsome replaced Childs and Pruitt, when did they leave?

Edited March 15, 2019 by chalky

[Guest]

Proof reader`s day off Karl?

[Louise]

12 hours ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

So was Cleveland Horne lead on "Crime Doesn't Pay" as discussed above

Just spoke with James and he can confirm that Cleveland was the other half of the duo, they both shared/alternated lead throughout the recording. To promote the 45 Popcorn organized block parties, where the duo performed "Crime Doesn't Pay" James wearing a Cop's uniform and Cleveland wearing a prisoners uniform.

Dave

[Blackpoolsoul]

45 minutes ago, Louise said:

Just spoke with James and he can confirm that Cleveland was the other half of the duo, they both shared/alternated lead throughout the recording. To promote the 45 Popcorn organized block parties, where the duo performed "Crime Doesn't Pay" James wearing a Cop's uniform and Cleveland wearing a prisoners uniform.

Dave

That's fantastic, can you ask James about this Carstairs thing with Cleveland and to confirm if he know that they were the same group or different as talked about above......please Dave

[Louise]

12 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

That's fantastic, can you ask James about this Carstairs thing with Cleveland and to confirm if he know that they were the same group or different as talked about above......please Dave

James knew nothing about The Carstairs when i asked him, him and Cleveland were just thrown together by Popcorn to record "Crime Doesn't Pay" then they went their seperate ways as artists do.

Dave

[Ian Parker]

Fascinating stuff.     

[Wilxy]

28 minutes ago, IanP said:

Fascinating stuff.     

Absolutely!

[Robbk]

On 30/03/2013 at 05:18, Glyn Sisson said:

Going by memory the Carstairs was on in Blackpool and a friend of mine picked them up from a London airport , on the way to Blackpool he brought them to my house for a cup of tea , me and Cleveland was talking soul when he told me they was the Innocent Bystanders i told him i had Frantic Escape on Atlantic records he said it was not possible has he never recorded for Atlantic so i looked for my copy and the Pameline demo of Crime Doesn't Pay he said on his return to the States he would see a solicitor to ask for royalties, before he left he signed both copies and if you would like to see i would be happy to show you .

Hope this helps

Glyn

Both of Popcorn's labels, Soulhawk and Pamline were distributed by Atlantic.  So, why would anyone be surprised that Atlantic put a Pamline record out on the "Mother label"?  Based on the distribution deal they had with Wiley, apparently, they had the option to move any Soulhawk or Pamline release onto one of their labels (Atlantic, ATCO, or Cotillion) IF sales on the original label were high enough to indicate an opportunity to sell more with Atlantic's highest level of distribution channels (or more well-known and well-respected label).  That was a commonplace option the large distributors had written into their distribution deal contracts with small, independent record labels. 

He shouldn't have been surprised that it was released on Atlantic.  But he's fully within his rights to ask for royalties from Atlantic's sales.  However, based on what I've seen over the years, Atlantic had almost no sales.  That Atlantic pressing must be extremely rare, as compared to the number of Pameline store stockers AND white DJ issues which have been seen back when the record was out, and have turned up over the years till now. 

It has also been very common for the major distributing label's issue to never get distributed after being pressed, or for it to fail, because they didn't give it a marketing push, or they didn't have people doing the groundwork who would give it any priority (e.g. they had LOTS of other records to push for which they had a much closer relationship with the record company).  So, it showed up to potential buyers as one of their products, but the potential buyers never had any reason to be interested, not having heard of the label or artists, and never having heard the songs.