Is This A Bootleg ?

[Gasher]

ENLIGHTEN ME PLEASE

Edited May 15, 2006 by the gasher

[Guest Baz]

the run out groove looks very big, think i remember reading on here about long run outs not being a thing done in the 60's

[Guest Rowly]

I reckon it looks iffy.....the title & artist name print is big too. Mucher bigger than on my copy - or on any of the other stuff I have on Ric-Tic.

Edited May 16, 2006 by Rowly

[45cellar]

ENLIGHTEN ME PLEASE

There were some Ric-Tic records issued on vinyl as apposed to styrene.

I am not sure whether the label design is different on the vinyl copies though, as they are quite rare.

I do have a couple of vinyl Impact records which do have a similar sheen to the label as yours does, and I have seen one of the later Ric-Tic numbers "SHOW TIME" with a different font.

Mmm.

Is your copy on vinyl, and is the Matrix Stamped or scratched?

[45cellar]

There were some Ric-Tic records issued on vinyl as apposed to styrene.

I am not sure whether the label design is different on the vinyl copies though, as they are quite rare.

I do have a couple of vinyl copies of the Impact label which do have a similar sheen to the label as yours does, and I have seen one of the later Ric-Tic numbers "SHOW TIME" with a different font.

Mmm.

Is your copy on vinyl, and is the Matrix Stamped or scratched?

[Guest]

I`ve got one of these,and thought they where local issue`s?

Edited May 16, 2006 by ken

[Northernguy]

I`ve got one of these,and thought they where local issue`s?

Isn't local issue another term for bootleg

[Guest]

Isn't local issue another term for bootleg

Shit!! better not play it out no more anybody got any local issue`s (bootlegs) they wanna` give me,or sell me!!,dead cheap,feel free

Edited May 16, 2006 by ken

[John Al]

ENLIGHTEN ME PLEASE

Looks like a boot to me mate - sorry. Print, font and colour is all wrong. Mine is totally different. Is the ZTSC number stamped?

That said, if you have a mind to, you should be able to pick up an original at reasonable price.

John.

[Tony Smith]

There was a rumour these were Canadian

[Guest]

Looks like a boot to me mate - sorry. Print, font and colour is all wrong. Mine is totally different. Is the ZTSC number stamped?

That said, if you have a mind to, you should be able to pick up an original at reasonable price.

John.

Not stamped,but that means nowt and untill you know for a fact that its a "boot" how would you know what it looks like,some of the best and rarest records look untidy and dont have numbers stamped in the runout,quick example;The Headliners;looking for a love,LAUA what a record,but if you`re soul is based on what a records looks like,you would be missing out on a lot of great music,me thinks.

[Guest]

There was a rumour these were Canadian

I've got a couple of Canadian Ric Tics but the label design is different to the one shown on here

[Gasher]

I has not been booted apparently reissued yes and UK issued on Polydor.

There are LARGE PRINT RARER ISSUES

SO my guess is this is one of them

[Guest]

I has not been booted apparently reissued yes and UK issued on Polydor.

There are LARGE PRINT RARER ISSUES

SO my guess is this is one of them

Spot on i think!!,only mine as not got the glossy look,and i have got two optained in Detroit with loads of Motown stuff!!.

[Guest lolmil]

ENLIGHTEN ME PLEASE

I have one of these and the guy stated that it could be a west coast issue?

Loll

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

I have one of these and the guy stated that it could be a west coast issue?

Loll

There's no West coast pressing plant with a label font like this, Loll. According to the Ric Tic obsessive who sits directly behind me at work, this is a 100% guaranteed counterfeit.

He also tell me that there are 6 other Ric Tic 45s that have been counterfeited at various times, these being: 105 (Rose Batiste), 106 (J.J. Barnes), 109x (Scott's On Swingers), 111 (Laura Lee), 112 (San Remo Strings), 123 (Al Kent).

My colleague is not in any way a man to be argued with on matters discographical, so I think it's safe for anyone reading this to accept his assertions as gospel!

TONE

[John Al]

Not stamped,but that means nowt and untill you know for a fact that its a "boot" how would you know what it looks like,some of the best and rarest records look untidy and dont have numbers stamped in the runout,quick example;The Headliners;looking for a love,LAUA what a record,but if you`re soul is based on what a records looks like,you would be missing out on a lot of great music,me thinks.

Thanks Ken, I wasn't advocating checking all records for stamped matrix numbers though. Most of the Ric-Tics were ZTSC stamped except for the very early ones and by the time of this issue all the releases were stamped, as mine is.

Happy to be wrong though and I think the Canadian angle is interesting. Pete, if you are still there, do you have a view?

As an aside, does anyone find Manships guide to bootlegs of any use in helping with these issues?

John.

[Russoul1]

I`ve got one of these,and thought they where local issue`s?

im with you ken, i have this 45 which i brought from a well known dealer some years

ago. there were a few issued on vinyl. if i can remember east or west coast was mentioned.

anyway original or not a fantastic record edwin starr rip

russ

[Guest MOLLY]

I think you will find Originals are styrene with stick on labels,and are a darker red in colour. I had a Laura Lee for 15 odd years thinking it was a "Boot",turned out to be an Original

[45cellar]

There's no West coast pressing plant with a label font like this, Loll. According to the Ric Tic obsessive who sits directly behind me at work, this is a 100% guaranteed counterfeit.

He also tell me that there are 6 other Ric Tic 45s that have been counterfeited at various times, these being: 105 (Rose Batiste), 106 (J.J. Barnes), 109x (Scott's On Swingers), 111 (Laura Lee), 112 (San Remo Strings), 123 (Al Kent).

My colleague is not in any way a man to be argued with on matters discographical, so I think it's safe for anyone reading this to accept his assertions as gospel!

TONE

Does anyone know which Ric-Tic's were issued on vinyl.

I always thought that "Stop Her On Sight" was available on the rarer vinyl.

If so has anyone a Label scan or info.

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

Does anyone know which Ric-Tic's were issued on vinyl.

I always thought that "Stop Her On Sight" was available on the rarer vinyl.

If so has anyone a Label scan or info.

The only legit one that I've ever owned personally was "Agent 00 Soul". I flogged that copy years ago, but I recall that it was on the yellow Ric Tic label with all the label copy in red. All the earlier numbers I have are styrene, as are all the later ones.

TONY

[Guest rachel]

ENLIGHTEN ME PLEASE

I wondered about this too (it was on eBay?) as I got a copy the other day with the more usual label design.. actually bought for a friend but just had to give it a few spins when it arrived, as Russ said.. fantastic

[45cellar]

I wondered about this too (it was on eBay?) as I got a copy the other day with the more usual label design.. actually bought for a friend but just had to give it a few spins when it arrived, as Russ said.. fantastic

I am not sure about this, something in my memory about the existance of a GENUINE VINYL Ric-Tic RT-109 still haunts me. I just can't remember where I saw it though.

Is there a Vinyl copy out there with the usual styrene Label Design?

As I recall, it was described as extremely rare on Vinyl. If I am right, does anyone know what it looks like?

We appear to have ruled this copy out, and I can only bow to the knowledge on this.

My questions are;

If this is a boot, why are so few about, because whoever made the boot must have lost out big time.

Has the record ever been so difficult to obtain, in order to create the demand for the bootleggers - (after all, in Britain alone, it was issued twice on polydor, and also Tamla Motown)

Could someone confirm the possible existance of a genuine Vinyl copy?

Edited May 18, 2006 by 45cellar

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

I am not sure about this, something in my memory about the existance of a GENUINE VINYL Ric-Tic RT-109 still haunts me. I just can't remember where I saw it though.

Is there a Vinyl copy out there with the usual styrene Label Design?

As I recall, it was described as extremely rare on Vinyl. If I am right, does anyone know what it looks like?

We appear to have ruled this copy out, and I can only bow to the knowledge on this.

My questions are;

If this is a boot, why are so few about, because whoever made the boot must have lost out big time.

Has the record ever been so difficult to obtain, in order to create the demand for the bootleggers - (after all, in Britain alone, it was issued twice on polydor, and also Tamla Motown)

Could someone confirm the possible existance of a genuine Vinyl copy?

I think an important point that you're missing here, Rog, is that this is actually a counterfeit, not a bootleg. OK, so people might think that they're essentially the same thing, but there are a few basic differences.

Counterfeited records were usually made at the same time as the legit issues, in order to cream off a few illegal sales while the record in question was going up the charts - for example, everyone knows that Charlie and Raynoma Singleton counterfeited Mary Wells' "My Guy" and flooded the local New York distributors with their copies as "Miss Ray's revenge" on Berry Gordy. This kind of thing happened often in the 60s - much more often than has been documented, that's for sure...

Bootlegs on the other hand are usually made well after the event, to satisfy a collector market rather than the regular punter.

My in house Ric Tic expert tells me that the SOS counterfeits were made around the time the record was in the charts, which certainly makes sense because - as you say - it's never been rare enough to really warrant a 'Bootlegging'. They were probably sold out of an area where Ric Tic's distribution network was weak, as it may well have been manufactured on the west coast (although that label font still looks pretty Chicagoan to me) ...

TONE

.

[Guest]

MY jj barnes P.L.M.In has no ztsc or scratches in the wax but quality is Excellent really Top. Edwins girls on the otherhand has the ZTSC Scratched in quality no where near as good A00soul yellow & red is stamped ZTSC sounds excellent! Full on!gave up on SOS and Headline Ric-tics (think ive a couple of each somewhere) but the Polydor blew them away!

All my Ric-tics are styrene!

The print on JJ by the way is much finer and crisp than the Edwins not that the Edwins are rough or anything but definately heavier!

Edited May 19, 2006 by Mr M

[45cellar]

I think an important point that you're missing here, Rog, is that this is actually a counterfeit, not a bootleg. OK, so people might think that they're essentially the same thing, but there are a few basic differences.

Counterfeited records were usually made at the same time as the legit issues, in order to cream off a few illegal sales while the record in question was going up the charts - for example, everyone knows that Charlie and Raynoma Singleton counterfeited Mary Wells' "My Guy" and flooded the local New York distributors with their copies as "Miss Ray's revenge" on Berry Gordy. This kind of thing happened often in the 60s - much more often than has been documented, that's for sure...

Bootlegs on the other hand are usually made well after the event, to satisfy a collector market rather than the regular punter.

My in house Ric Tic expert tells me that the SOS counterfeits were made around the time the record was in the charts, which certainly makes sense because - as you say - it's never been rare enough to really warrant a 'Bootlegging'. They were probably sold out of an area where Ric Tic's distribution network was weak, as it may well have been manufactured on the west coast (although that label font still looks pretty Chicagoan to me) ...

TONE

.

Thanks TONE

Once again a quality explaination which clears things up a lot.

This copy may be the one that entered "folklore" as the rare Vinyl copy which muddied the waters, and the one that I read about somewhere.

You gave a very concise explaination to another post on

UK-Labels Stateside for Instance

Who Chose - and which 60's Label most influential

https://www.soul-source.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=28438

that I posted recently.

Sadly this reply appears to have been lost when the forum went down.

I was lucky to have printed it out before this happened, so thanks again, Invaluable info.

Edited May 19, 2006 by 45cellar

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

Thanks TONE

Once again a quality explaination which clears things up a lot.

This copy may be the one that entered "folklore" as the rare Vinyl copy which muddied the waters, and the one that I read about somewhere.

You gave a very concise explaination to another post on

UK-Labels Stateside for Instance

Who Chose - and which 60's Label most influential

https://www.soul-source.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=28438

that I posted recently.

Sadly this reply appears to have been lost when the forum went down.

I was lucky to have printed it out before this happened, so thanks again, Invaluable info.

...You're always welcome, my friend!

TONE

[Gasher]

SO AFTER ALL THAT WHAT THE f*** IS IT

THEN????

AS I TOO HEARD OF THE VINYL COPY EXISTED WITH DIFFERENT PRINT

SO

BOOT,REAL,FAKE, COUNTERFIET,DUB,ACTEATE????

I FUCKING BOUGHT IT ANYWAY..BUT STILL NOT SURE HAHA

[Guest]

SO AFTER ALL THAT WHAT THE f*** IS IT

THEN????

AS I TOO HEARD OF THE VINYL COPY EXISTED WITH DIFFERENT PRINT

SO

BOOT,REAL,FAKE, COUNTERFIET,DUB,ACTEATE????

I FUCKING BOUGHT IT ANYWAY..BUT STILL NOT SURE HAHA

Looking through JMs book every ric tick booted seems to say -

Bootleg is vinyl,original is styrene with stick on label----BUT!

Under JJBarnes P.L.M.In it says this-

Boot legs are vinyl (refering to p.l.m.in) ALL ric-tics are styrene with the exception of

Edwin Starr L.A Press"S.O.S" which do occasionaly appear in vinyl with moulded over label!

But then again it dosent say I have faith was booted??

so if it is a boot upto now theres only yourself and did Rachel say shes got one? = 2?

Anyway whats the sound quality like??

Hope ime not going to get a breach of copyright here ! Sorry John!

anyway buy his book you tight bug££rs! (Does this help ammend things John!)

Edited May 21, 2006 by Mr M

[Guest]

Looking through JMs book every ric tick booted seems to say -

Bootleg is vinyl,original is styrene with stick on label----BUT!

Under JJBarnes P.L.M.In it says this-

Boot legs are vinyl (refering to p.l.m.in) ALL ric-tics are styrene with the exception of

Edwin Starr L.A Press"S.O.S" which do occasionaly appear in vinyl with moulded over label!

But then again it dosent say I have faith was booted??

so if it is a boot upto now theres only yourself and did Rachel say shes got one? = 2?

Anyway whats the sound quality like??

Hope ime not going to get a breach of copyright here ! Sorry John!

anyway buy his book you tight bug££rs! (Does this help ammend things John!)

At least 3,ive got two

[Guest]

so thats 4 known copies then Ken! Think were only just scratching the surface here? anymore anybody!

Tell you what does really help styrene singles alot -

Record clamps!

Theres no way you could press a vinyl single as thin as styrene it would warp in no time besides which if you take both sides of a good vinyl piece and measured the depth of the grooves on both sides its not much less than the width of a styrene!

If you have a cracked single its a high probability its a styrene!

So what you have is Thin,Hard,and Lightweight!!

I mean theres at least minimum 2/3rds less material in a styrene over vinyl !

Sonics on a vinyl are supposed to be higher presumably because of its hardness?? and you can tell this if you play them without sound on ,just listening to the vibration comeing off the needle alone!

But because they are so lightweight the vibrations go right through the disc! a real disadvantage!

Styrene over vinyl is really a much cheeper substrate to press on,a cost saver!

Using a record clamp actually holds the disc right upto the outer edges of the label against the platter and cuts out alot of the spurious vibration thats travelling throught an unheld disc or in otherwords a lightweight hard disc just resting on its own light mass/gravity!

You get an indication when you tap the edge of a styrene its a tinnie sound!

Got my clamp initially for warps and for this it works a treat!

Warps of 4/5mm the sort of size that will play without throwing the needle airbourne i dont try a repair the clamp does the job on these!

Anything bigger the clamp will hold fine but i might go for a repair on those discs? just depends because warp repairs are a dodgy affair at best of times!

Biggest problem is the disc expanding outwards at the point your giving the heat to!

Clamp makers will tell you about the sonic advantages in clamping a disc and in the case of styrenes its really noticeable.

I bought a mitchell i think it was about £23 +P+P

They can be as expensive as £50+ but to be quite honest theres some as little as a tenner and i would think do exactly as good a job so no need to go daft!

The one i have is a doddle to set up and quick to use but it does have a dissadvantage on my deck ( probably ALL makes would) in that as my needle gets into the run out wax the shell on my arm hits the side of the clamp! The clamp is bevelled to tackle this and would be fine on a Rega type arm but i have to lift off before it gets to the final end settling groove otherwise it bumbs against it !not a big problem but just to let you all know!

[Guest]

richie,

I think I can throw some light on this strange press. I've only found this variation in Los Angeles. It was common practice for big hits to be bootlegged by the "backdoor". I mean when this hit the charts someone in L.A. decided to press it and supply the shops, usually from the trunk of a car.

I think it's a 60s bootleg or it may have been a legit West Coast press because shipping 1000s of 45s from Detroit to the West Coast would have been very expensive. But there is no New York variation presses of the 45, so my thoughts are it was a 60s boot..and there are quite a few of this type of pressing. Linda Jones - Hypnotized - on Loma vinyl jumps to mind..

john

[Guest]

At least 3,ive got two

It is pretty common really, in the whole scheme of things:I've had maybe as many as 30 copies over the years..john

[Guest]

It is pretty common really, in the whole scheme of things:I've had maybe as many as 30 copies over the years..john

Probberly the same four,just going round and round etc,somebody buys one,then somebody tells em` its a boot,then they sell it to someone else,who sells it bakc in a deal with some other looking dodgy stuff,very cheap!!,and you have your eyes on something else in with the deal.................you sell that for a grand ,making everything worthwile,and so it go`s again hope this helps