Jerry Williiams If You Ask Me A Pop Record ?

[givemesoul]

A posting on a previous thread described Jerry Williams if you ask me as a 'pop' record,I would just like to add my thoughts to this.I have been into this scene since the age of 13 ,I am now 47.This record along with the likes of Bob Relf,Epitome of sound,Casualeers etc is one of the reasons I became hooked ,it, was one of my favs then & still is now.It led me on to build an extensive collection of northern & tmg.I am not stuck in the past a lot of modern soul does it for me as well Almetta Latimore ,Charles Johnson being favs.Just don't ask me to listen to rock and roll masquerading as RnB,give me a good beat ballad or motown oldie anytime.As a closing thought wasn't every record made mean't to to be 'pop',somebody had the faith in it at the time to release it & try to make it popular,sadly most artists on this scene never even enjoyed even a minor hit,that's why it's still going after 40 odd years.

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

.As a closing thought wasn't every record made mean't to to be 'pop',somebody had the faith in it at the time to release it & try to make it popular,sadly most artists on this scene never even enjoyed even a minor hit,that's why it's still going after 40 odd years.

A good point, well made. Regardless of how the end product sounded, everybody who ever made a record wanted it to be "pop"ular enough to be a hit, whether they be Eddie Parker or Eddie The Eagle. Unfortunately for Jerry 'Swamp Dogg' Williams, he's never had a big one in nearly 50 years of trying.

I can tell you that Jerry would gladly have swapped the satisfaction of knowing that his Calla masterpiece (and it is, and a very soulful one at that) has been cherished by a few hundred NS fans since the mid 70s for a US Top 20 position and an appearance on "American Bandstand"!

TONE

[Guest Andy BB]

Lyrically one of the greatest love songs ever written, pure poetry. "You're my Alpha and Omega"... sublime. And soulful as owt!

[Guest in town Mikey]

Its the haunting backing vocals that do it for me.

I close my eyes and I am back at Hinckley when I hear this.

[Guest]

define SOUL? to me the soulfulness of a record is it's ability to 'move me' emotionally. personally i get moved by the content of, in the main, black american 'style' music. i know others who are moved by puccini or straus. one man's fish etc. if jerry williams 'moves' a person and influences his or her emotions then to him or her it's soulful!

too deep?

sorry

[sister dawn]

This record was one of the very first that I bought as a youngster, to me it was THE true sound of what northern soul was all about, its haunting melodies, brill lyrics and that "edge about it" that you just can't explain,

[bri pinch]

This record was one of the very first that I bought as a youngster, to me it was THE true sound of what northern soul was all about, its haunting melodies, brill lyrics and that "edge about it" that you just can't explain,

[kevinsoulman]

as some one on stuart mconies show once said northern soul is pop music in its purest form don`t bore us heres the chorus think it was someone out of m people by the way has anyone got a sound bite of kylie singing time will pass you by

[Eamesy]

A posting on a previous thread described Jerry Williams if you ask me as a 'pop' record,I would just like to add my thoughts to this.I have been into this scene since the age of 13 ,I am now 47.This record along with the likes of Bob Relf,Epitome of sound,Casualeers etc is one of the reasons I became hooked ,it, was one of my favs then & still is now.It led me on to build an extensive collection of northern & tmg.I am not stuck in the past a lot of modern soul does it for me as well Almetta Latimore ,Charles Johnson being favs.Just don't ask me to listen to rock and roll masquerading as RnB,give me a good beat ballad or motown oldie anytime.As a closing thought wasn't every record made mean't to to be 'pop',somebody had the faith in it at the time to release it & try to make it popular,sadly most artists on this scene never even enjoyed even a minor hit,that's why it's still going after 40 odd years.

Think most of us around the same age will say this was one of the first northern SOUL records they heard & loved. Total quality, have been known to shed a tear to this before!

Alan

[Guest Baz]

That was my post

You forgot to add that i think it is a bloody fantastic record that still gives me goose bumps when i here it, but just because it was sung by a black man, and its a love song dont mean its a soul record, i forgot how i explained why i took it as a pop song mainly because of the intro and other bits, come on there is plenty of records out here with soulful 'lyrics' that are no where near soul what so ever!

Im not trying to come accross soulier than thou, its just what rings in your ears aint it, to me its a pop record, a feckin awasome pop record at that

[Paulb]

That was my post

You forgot to add that i think it is a bloody fantastic record that still gives me goose bumps when i here it, but just because it was sung by a black man, and its a love song dont mean its a soul record, i forgot how i explained why i took it as a pop song mainly because of the intro and other bits, come on there is plenty of records out here with soulful 'lyrics' that are no where near soul what so ever!

Im not trying to come accross soulier than thou, its just what rings in your ears aint it, to me its a pop record, a feckin awasome pop record at that

Its never a pop record in a million years!

[Guest Baz]

Its never a pop record in a million years!

So motown aint pop?

Has all the credencials of a motown record there

[Paulb]

So motown aint pop?

Has all the credencials of a motown record there

Some is but most isn't mate. I just dont like soul records being described as pop. Its almost disrespecting them in my book.

[Guest Baz]

Some is but most isn't mate. I just dont like soul records being described as pop. Its almost disrespecting them in my book.

What just the same as seventys being discribed as disco, R&B as C&W/R&R/clip clop, 'blue eyed soul' as white pop shite............it's all down to your personal ear for a record thats all

[Paulb]

What just the same as seventys being discribed as disco, R&B as C&W/R&R/clip clop, 'blue eyed soul' as white pop shite............it's all down to your personal ear for a record thats all

Just my opinion mate. Cant see the pop connectionn with that tune thats all

[Russoul1]

Some is but most isn't mate. I just dont like soul records being described as pop. Its almost disrespecting them in my book.

certainly not pop a club classic that most soulies would have owned and danced to

russ

[Guest Baz]

Just my opinion mate. Cant see the pop connectionn with that tune thats all

I have to say he does sing it with emotion, but there are so many song's again sung with emotion that are a million miles away from soul, i suppose for me the pop connection is with the backing singers, and the violins that are predominant through the record, its really hard to explain, a bit like soul is hard to explain, some of the things i class as soul you might laugh and say its a load of old bollox, a prime example here oxford knights i class a soul, but chalky hates it like i said at the end of the day its down to what rings true to your ears

God its like im slagging the record off, but i love it

[Winnie :-)]

I have to say he does sing it with emotion, but there are so many song's again sung with emotion that are a million miles away from soul, i suppose for me the pop connection is with the backing singers, and the violins that are predominant through the record, its really hard to explain, a bit like soul is hard to explain, some of the things i class as soul you might laugh and say its a load of old bollox, a prime example here oxford knights i class a soul, but chalky hates it like i said at the end of the day its down to what rings true to your ears

God its like im slagging the record off, but i love it

===========

Absolutely awesome record that still moves me now. Soz Baz but it is soulful, amazed you can't feel it??

Each to their own I guess, wouldn't have thought there'd be many agree with you though?

Winnie:-)

[steve z]

Hi SS guys and girls I was extremely honoured ,when buying records,in VAL SHIVELY'S to converse with.....our man...........He produced loads of tunes ...not least the rare one ...............on ALPHA ATB Stevie Z

[Guest Baz]

===========

Absolutely awesome record that still moves me now. Soz Baz but it is soulful, amazed you can't feel it??

Each to their own I guess, wouldn't have thought there'd be many agree with you though?

Winnie:-)

Proberly not i do feel it, like i've said i do love the record, and the vocals are emotional, its just how its put together screems pop to me

[Winnie :-)]

Proberly not i do feel it, like i've said i do love the record, and the vocals are emotional, its just how its put together screems pop to me

===========

Sure somebody will already have said it, but isn't every record made done so for it to be a hit? Presumably they were/are all somebody's idea of pop?

Winnie:-)

[givemesoul]

That was my post

You forgot to add that i think it is a bloody fantastic record that still gives me goose bumps when i here it, but just because it was sung by a black man, and its a love song dont mean its a soul record, i forgot how i explained why i took it as a pop song mainly because of the intro and other bits, come on there is plenty of records out here with soulful 'lyrics' that are no where near soul what so ever!

Im not trying to come accross soulier than thou, its just what rings in your ears aint it, to me its a pop record, a feckin awasome pop record at that

I knew someone had posted it , if this is your idea of a 'pop' record ,what's your idea of a soul record ,to me Jerry Williams is there with the best of them, top soul all the way

[Guest Baz]

I knew someone had posted it , if this is your idea of a 'pop' record ,what's your idea of a soul record ,to me Jerry Williams is there with the best of them, top soul all the way

Top Soul or top Northern Soul two differnces IMO, i have to say im a northern soul fan befor a soul fan, as im dont like every thing 'soulful'

[Guest Baz]

===========

Sure somebody will already have said it, but isn't every record made done so for it to be a hit? Presumably they were/are all somebody's idea of pop?

Winnie:-)

Not really everything, I mean alot were trying to be a hit in the R&B charts yes, but the pop charts, well i supose the singer would have loved the records to score a hit in the pop charts on most occations, but lets take for example house music of today, its exactely the same as 60's soul music, there are the ones that are just aiming to keep it small, and producing there records just for the clubs, with no insight into even thinking of reaching any charts! so im pretty sure some of the guys/girls producing records in the 60's were doing it just for the clubs or discos where they were playing soul music, get my drift

[Guest Stormin Si]

whatever the intended audience of this record was, its pure top drawer northern to me!

by classifying something as a pop record does seem to disrespect it in my eyes purely as its used often as a derogatory term on the soul scene, even though i do understand the point you make about the record.

in your opinion, do such "pop" records as jerry williams have a place at a northern soul event?

[Guest Baz]

whatever the intended audience of this record was, its pure top drawer northern to me!

by classifying something as a pop record does seem to disrespect it in my eyes purely as its used often as a derogatory term on the soul scene, even though i do understand the point you make about the record.

in your opinion, do such "pop" records as jerry williams have a place at a northern soul event?

You say its top draw Northern, no mention of soul there

Yes it is a great northern soul record,

Wouldn't really like to hear it when im out, if i was at a oldies do then yes it has a place.

[Guest Stormin Si]

its top drawer northern soul baby

[sister dawn]

In what why was it wrongly put together Baz in your opinion, that would determine it to be "Pop"

Edited May 15, 2006 by Sister Dawn

[Winnie :-)]

Not really everything, I mean alot were trying to be a hit in the R&B charts yes, but the pop charts, well i supose the singer would have loved the records to score a hit in the pop charts on most occations, but lets take for example house music of today, its exactely the same as 60's soul music, there are the ones that are just aiming to keep it small, and producing there records just for the clubs, with no insight into even thinking of reaching any charts! so im pretty sure some of the guys/girls producing records in the 60's were doing it just for the clubs or discos where they were playing soul music, get my drift

=========

I'd always assumed they were cutting records to hit the charts? Anybody help here, were artists cutting records in the 6Ts just to be played in clubs. Not dismissing what you're saying Baz, would just like some confirmation that this was the case.

Winnie:-)

[Guest Baz]

=========

I'd always assumed they were cutting records to hit the charts? Anybody help here, were artists cutting records in the 6Ts just to be played in clubs. Not dismissing what you're saying Baz, would just like some confirmation that this was the case.

Winnie:-)

I bet if you went into some of the 'ghetto's' where alot of our music came from, and you said how do you feel about getting into a white mans pop chart, you would most proberly be shot there and then

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

I bet if you went into some of the 'ghetto's' where alot of our music came from, and you said how do you feel about getting into a white mans pop chart, you would most proberly be shot there and then

Sorry, Baz, but I feel that the more postings you're making to defend your corner, the bigger the hole that you're digging for yourself seems to be getting.

The fact is - and it is a fact - that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and right up to today - nobody with any real talent ever made a record just to appeal a few clubgoers. Every single soul artist who has ever stepped up to a mic has done it because he, she or they want to be a worldwide success - which, in basic terms, means getting a hit on what you erroneously term a 'white man's pop chart' (an odd description to use, as the Billboard Hot Hundred has always been segregation free).

This doesn't mean that any one of them had to literally 'sell their soul' to do so, of course. A great many extremely soulful records have made the Hot 100 down the years - real soul records, too, by artists like, to name just a few, Garnet Mimms, James Carr, Otis Redding, Marie Knight, King Floyd, Howard Tate, Johnnie Taylor, Z.Z Hill etc. etc. No one's ever suggested that any of these artists ever made pop records, just because some of their releases charted nationally in the USA. And I bet all of the artists concerned would unanimously have been more pleased with a "white man's chart" run, than with a few spins in a club, then or now. And I don't think anyone would have shot you for suggesting that they would have done, either.

Jerry Williams Jr. has, over a near 50 year career, created a staggering amount of soul masterpieces. "If You Ask Me" is among his greatest. It's real soul that you can dance to, surely the perfect combination for most people who check "Soul Source". You can hear soul in every syllable of his passionate vocal - and he wrote the song about his (now sadly deceased) wife, whom he idolised. Believe me when I tell you that those lyrics came straight from his heart firstly and foremostly.

If you think it's pop - and, by doing so, you're putting it in a category that also includes Joan Regan, Brian Hyland, Lynne Randell, Muriel Day, Gary Lewis and Sandy Nelson - then you're entitled to your opinion. Having pretty much extablished that not even one 'sourcer' who's replied to your posting agrees with your assertion, I think it might be wise to let this one sink slowly in the west, mate....

TONE

[Guest Netspeaky]

Surely it's Pop as in popular, did any artists go into a studio to be unpopular?

[Guest Baz]

The fact is - and it is a fact - that in the 60s, 70s, 80s and right up to today - nobody with any real talent ever made a record just to appeal a few clubgoers. Every single soul artist who has ever stepped up to a mic has done it because he, she or they want to be a worldwide success - which, in basic terms, means getting a hit on what you erroneously term a 'white man's pop chart' (an odd description to use, as the Billboard Hot Hundred has always been segregation free)

Jerry Williams Jr. has, over a near 50 year career, created a staggering amount of soul masterpieces. "If You Ask Me" is among his greatest. It's real soul that you can dance to, surely the perfect combination for most people who check "Soul Source". You can hear soul in every syllable of his passionate vocal - and he wrote the song about his (now sadly deceased) wife, whom he idolised. Believe me when I tell you that those lyrics came straight from his heart firstly and foremostly.

If you think it's pop - and, by doing so, you're putting it in a category that also includes Joan Regan, Brian Hyland, Lynne Randell, Muriel Day, Gary Lewis and Sandy Nelson - then you're entitled to your opinion. Having pretty much extablished that not even one 'sourcer' who's replied to your posting agrees with your assertion, I think it might be wise to let this one sink slowly in the west, mate....

TONE

I did not know that the pop charts were segregation free, at the time when racism was still a very much 'hard time' during the sixtys especially in some of the southern states, i discribed it as a 'white mans pop chart' just to get the point accross i was trying to make, but come on you have to admit, if you did enter a ghetto, as a white man and try to 'take on' some of the 'black artists' from that area its a bloody risky thing to do, agree?

For me personly a record has to be soulful all the way through, and im sorry but i dont think if you ask me is yes its sung with loads of emotion i said that earlyer in the thread, the whole arrangment for me to these ears sounds 'poppy'

[Guest Baz]

Heres another example NF (Nolan) Porter 'keep on' & If i ould only be sure

Northern soul records, sung with emotion and 'If i' has some great 'soulful' lyrics, but a soul records?? not to these ears

[Winnie :-)]

I did not know that the pop charts were segregation free, at the time when racism was still a very much 'hard time' during the sixtys especially in some of the southern states, i discribed it as a 'white mans pop chart' just to get the point accross i was trying to make, but come on you have to admit, if you did enter a ghetto, as a white man and try to 'take on' some of the 'black artists' from that area its a bloody risky thing to do, agree?

For me personly a record has to be soulful all the way through, and im sorry but i dont think if you ask me is yes its sung with loads of emotion i said that earlyer in the thread, the whole arrangment for me to these ears sounds 'poppy'

============

Baz,

I know when you believe something you defend that belief to the end, but you're blatantly wrong in this case. This record would probably be in a lot of peoples top 10 or hovering just below, it's that good!!

As for 'white man's pop chart', people wanted out of the ghettos, they weren't living in them by choice, making money via selling records, sport, have always been ways out. I doubt the top banana at a record company would have been going into a ghetto to check out who's good or not, he/she would have had agents/scouts to do that.

Winnie;-)

[Guest Baz]

Baz,

I know when you believe something you defend that belief to the end, but you're blatantly wrong in this case. This record would probably be in a lot of peoples top 10 or hovering just below, it's that good!!

Winnie;-)

Where have i said the record was crap!!

Thats the thing there is no right or wrong in this case, if you can show me a mathmatical equazion to prove if a record is soul/pop/rock/house ect ect then i'll admit im wrong but as i doubt very much any one can supply me with that! then no one is right or wrong

[John Al]

Where have i said the record was crap!!

Thats the thing there is no right or wrong in this case, if you can show me a mathmatical equazion to prove if a record is soul/pop/rock/house ect ect then i'll admit im wrong but as i doubt very much any one can supply me with that! then no one is right or wrong

A mathematical equation would certainly make it easier. I have just listened to it again and, in my opinion, it is soul. Even more so after reading Tony's posting as to the background to the song - how on earth does he know so much?

That's the problem though isn't it? Soul means different things to different people and we all have different views. To me, soul is present when I can feel the emotion, relate to it and empathise with it, this usually leads to an overwhelming desire to own it!

Didn't know that the billboard charts were un-segregated though, I thought they were which is why they had seperate RnB charts. Oh, and Tony, what label was that Eddie the Eagle sound on?

John.

[Ged Parker]

Where have i said the record was crap!!

Thats the thing there is no right or wrong in this case, if you can show me a mathmatical equazion to prove if a record is soul/pop/rock/house ect ect then i'll admit im wrong but as i doubt very much any one can supply me with that! then no one is right or wrong

Wrong may not be the right term Baz but your in a very very small minority. I think if Jerry Williams had a vision of it hitting a chart when he recorded it would have been the R&B chart so to me its an R&B record. But I'm in a different minority.

[Winnie :-)]

Where have i said the record was crap!!

Thats the thing there is no right or wrong in this case, if you can show me a mathmatical equazion to prove if a record is soul/pop/rock/house ect ect then i'll admit im wrong but as i doubt very much any one can supply me with that! then no one is right or wrong

===========

I never said you said it was crap

I think you're blatantly wrong when you describe it as unsoulful. And using your own argument, there is no equation to determine soul, so how can you in the first place say it isn't soul?

Winnie:-)

[Guest WPaulVanDyk]

How is it pop, it's pop in the way of popular music - a term coined for music we listen to ie pop, soul, rock, metal, country, folk and countless other genres. then you have classical on it's own. As soon as you move into popular music circles a song or an artist usually generates a certain style of music or makes songs to fit. in this case it is Northern soul hence it will be a soul record not a pop record or else it would be like putting it alongside Donny Osmond. If the track charts in the hot 100 or UK top 75 who cares at least it shows it becomes big and they come success and not just R & B charted hits then if you lucky there's the idea of getting some Radio play where US stations or whatever will play hot 100 hits from 50's - 80's say and the few Northern tracks to reach the hot 100 can be played. Some people think cause a song hits the pop charts it becomes pop music

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

A mathematical equation would certainly make it easier. I have just listened to it again and, in my opinion, it is soul. Even more so after reading Tony's posting as to the background to the song - how on earth does he know so much?

That's the problem though isn't it? Soul means different things to different people and we all have different views. To me, soul is present when I can feel the emotion, relate to it and empathise with it, this usually leads to an overwhelming desire to own it!

Didn't know that the billboard charts were un-segregated though, I thought they were which is why they had seperate RnB charts. Oh, and Tony, what label was that Eddie the Eagle sound on?

John.

Hi John,

I've done a lot of busines with Jerry down the years, enough to count him as a friend. Thus I know that all of his great love songs were written for and about his wife, Yvonne (as indeed was the B side of "If You Ask Me". They were married for five decades and Jerry was absolutely devastated when she passed away a couple of years ago.

Can't remember what label Eddie The Eagle was on, but I assure you that he definitely had a 45 - I can remember selling it as a new release, when I worked in HMV in the early 80s. If I ever remember, you'll be the first to know!

BTW yes, Billboard and Cashbox did run separate charts for various musical genres, right the way back to the 50s - and Billboard still does! But those charts were supposedly based on returns from specialist shops geared to sell a specific style of music, whereas the Hot 100 was based on sales from stores with a wider sales demographic.

Did you know, for instance, that - just picking a few at random - James Carr had 6 pop chart hits between 1966 and 1968, the Five Stairsteps had 17 between 1966 and 1971, the Impressions 39 between 1958 and 1975, Little Anthony and the Imperials 19 between 1958 and 1974, Little Milton 10 between 1965 and 1972, Joe Tex 27 between 1964 and 1977, Carla Thomas 20 between 1961 and 1969, Irma Thomas 4 in 1964 ("Wish Someone Would Care" actually made the Top 20!!!!), the Intruders 14 between 1966 and 1974, Chuck Jackson 23 between 1961 and 1968, Jackie Wilson 54 between 1957 and 1972, Al Wilson 8 between 1968 and 1976 (including the Top 30 hit 'The Snake'!), Aretha Franklin 72 between 1961 and 1989, William Bell 6 between 1962 and 1976 ("Tryin' To Love Two" made the Top 10!), Bettye Swann 5 tikes between 1967 and 1972 ("Make Me Yours" - as soulful a dance record as you'll ever hear - got all the way up to # 21) - and that's just the tip of an iceberg as far as soul records on the pop chart goes.

Not one of those records would have made the pop chart if it really was the domain of the 'White Man", of course.....

TONY

[Guest Netspeaky]

I agree Tony, I'm amazed at the number of Soul records that made the US Charts, just shows you that they actually had more taste than us guys when they were being released back in the 60's. If you look at the UK charts most 1960's Soul chart entries were actually in the 70's when they were re-issued. Also a local hit in the US would be enough to put it in the UK top 20.

I remember Dave Godin mentioning this on the radio, so I pluck this off the net:

The Lovelites. The female vocal trio had caused a minor stir in 1969 with a sweet, catchy midtempo tune called "How Can I Tell My Mom and Dad," in which lead singer Patti Hamilton wondered how to break the news to her folks that she was pregnant. That single, produced by an up-and-comer named Clarence Johnson, sold 55,000 copies locally and 400,000 nationally, peaking at number 15 on Billboard's soul chart and landing the group a deal with Uni Records, a division of MCA.

Unfortunately, "How Can I Tell My Mom and Dad," with the line "Oh, he made me mother-to-be," was considered too risque for pop radio, so missed out on the HOT 100.

So you can only wonder what type of sales if Pop radio would have played it and it made the HOT 100, can you imagine that kind of sales in the UK.

[givemesoul]

A good point, well made. Regardless of how the end product sounded, everybody who ever made a record wanted it to be "pop"ular enough to be a hit, whether they be Eddie Parker or Eddie The Eagle. Unfortunately for Jerry 'Swamp Dogg' Williams, he's never had a big one in nearly 50 years of trying.

I can tell you that Jerry would gladly have swapped the satisfaction of knowing that his Calla masterpiece (and it is, and a very soulful one at that) has been cherished by a few hundred NS fans since the mid 70s for a US Top 20 position and an appearance on "American Bandstand"!

TONE

I have just listened to the 3 records I own by this man,Run,Run Roadrunner ex track big fave with a lot of people,the sublime If you ask me,to me and many a fine nothern soul track which holds a place in the hearts of countless northern devotee's,last but not least an excellent tune, You're my everything this has soul pouring out of it ,not a lot of money if you see it buy it

[BrianB]

What just the same as seventys being discribed as disco, R&B as C&W/R&R/clip clop, 'blue eyed soul' as white pop shite............it's all down to your personal ear for a record thats all

I may be an old fogie, but I never went to Northern Soul do's from 1969-70 onwards to listen to R&B, seventies or white pop, I went to listen to the Northern Soul we all love. This is one of them.

Pop, bloody hell Baz, get real!!

[Guest rachel]

last but not least an excellent tune, You're my everything this has soul pouring out of it ,not a lot of money if you see it buy it

Agree, love this

[Steve G]

Agree Jerry Williams a very good record. Never thought of it as pop though.

[Nick Hackett]

Lyrically one of the greatest love songs ever written, pure poetry. "You're my Alpha and Omega"... sublime. And soulful as owt!

SPOT ON ANDY,SUBLIME