Witches

[Chalky]

Fantastic dancer on Bang "She's Got You Now" but anyone know who they actually are?

[Agentsmith]

think thats just the witches bro, dont recall warlock being on label. are you getting confused with the group who recorded for calla and had the president release of behind locked doors?

[Chalky]

Yes it is just the Witches mate, my mistake. It came on the iPod earlier today whilst driving and just wondered who they were like you do.

[Agentsmith]

Yes it is just the Witches mate, my mistake. It came on the iPod earlier today whilst driving and just wondered who they were like you do.

remember having a copy of this a few years back, was quite expensive at the time, £150 i think, has it ever seriously been played out?, has that inclination towards the crystals/ronnettes.

[Tony Smith]

remember having a copy of this a few years back, was quite expensive at the time, £150 i think, has it ever seriously been played out?, has that inclination towards the crystals/ronnettes.

Was a regular 100 Club spin in the early days for Roger Stewart, wasn't this a spin for Russ at Wigan?

[Steve G]

If it's the NY group it's Carl Proctor's old group that became Witches & Warlock. He left Scepter to manage them full time (and set up his own label) he believed in them so muich.

[Roburt]

If it's the NY group it's Carl Proctor's old group that became Witches & Warlock.

How come "Behind Locked Doors" came out on both Sew City & on Miami based BRA ???

[Steve G]

I don't know, Sew City was Proctor's label, I guess he must have sold it to BRA.

[Roburt]

I thought Sew City was run by Matt Parsons (who had been associated with Scepter / Wand, Vee Jay, Capitol, Golden World, Motown, Atlantic & Laurie).

Matt went on to have top jobs with King, Capitol & Polydor through the 70's.

Mind you, Carl Proctor was also with Scepter / Wand at the same time, so perhaps they set up Sew City together.

Proctor was with Farem Productions by 1970; the outfit that ran the Right-On label.

Edited February 22, 2013 by Roburt

[Guest CapitolSC]

Dont forget the brilliant Big city soul version of Shes got you now

by the Diplomats on Arock He s got you now

Reckon it must be the original

Al H

[Gene-r]

I notice it was written by "Buddy Smith". The same guy who recorded "When You Lose The One You Love" on Brute, by any chance?

[Guest CapitolSC]

Morning Gene

hope your well mate

Ill check out the Kent Arock,Sylvia cd there may be some info in there

Cheers

Al

[Steve G]

I thought Sew City was run by Matt Parsons (who had been associated with Scepter / Wand, Vee Jay, Capitol, Golden World, Motown, Atlantic & Laurie).

Matt went on to have top jobs with King, Capitol & Polydor through the 70's.

Yes probably, might have got the two of them mixed up without my notes to hand. I'll go with Parsons.

[Gene-r]

Morning Gene

hope your well mate

Ill check out the Kent Arock,Sylvia cd there may be some info in there

Cheers

Al

Good morning Al!

All's well here thanks! How are you doing?

Thanks for the info - would be keen to know if that clarifies things.

All the best,

Gene

[Chalky]

Surfing the interweb, Jeff Lemlich says the Witch was was named Glenda, who had a connection with Enoch Gregory, the Dixie Drifter, a NY DJ? The Warlock's name was Ray. I have read these two names before elsewhere.

I always thought Sew City was Matt Parsons label.

[Pete S]

Probably just a one-off girl group record unrelated to anything else.

I remember buying 2 copies off this when I first got on the net, from a shop in Cornwall! £5 each or something daft like that.

[Chalky]

Probably just a one-off girl group record unrelated to anything else.

I remember buying 2 copies off this when I first got on the net, from a shop in Cornwall! £5 each or something daft like that.

Steve does say they went on to become Witches and Warlock and we do seem to have a first name for two of the latter incarnation.

[Steve G]

Surfing the interweb, Jeff Lemlich says the Witch was was named Glenda, who had a connection with Enoch Gregory, the Dixie Drifter, a NY DJ? The Warlock's name was Ray. I have read these two names before elsewhere.

I always thought Sew City was Matt Parsons label.

Yes my notes indicate that Parsons took over their management, set up Sew City and left Scepter.

[Tony Smith]

Information on The Witches here:

https://johnbroven.com/goldencrest/montells/index.html

[Pete S]

Information on The Witches here:

https://johnbroven.co...ells/index.html

Great article but doesn't that more or less prove that I was right about it being an unrelated group?

[Tony Smith]

Yes, it does or doesn't ?

Edited February 22, 2013 by Tony Smith

[Steve G]

Great article but doesn't that more or less prove that I was right about it being an unrelated group?

Not at all Pete, looks like the same lot of dudes to me - Bert Berns connection (the B in Bang), Matt Parsons etc....

Edited February 22, 2013 by Steve G

[Pete S]

Not at all Pete, looks like the same lot of dudes to me - Bert Berns connection (the B in Bang), Matt Parsons etc....

But doesn't it miss out them signing for Bang?

[Steve G]

But doesn't it miss out them signing for Bang?

It does but remember that Bang was set up by Bert Berns and the Atlantic folks, and the article mentions Atlantic. It's a small jump, but it would be bizarre if there were two Witches groups from NY tied up with Atlamtic especially when Bert Berns was there.

Edited February 22, 2013 by Steve G

[Pete S]

It does but Bang was set up by the Atlantic folks, and the article mentions Atlantic. It's a small jump, would be bizarre if there were two Witches groups from NY tied up with Atlamtic especially when Berns was there.

True..

[Chalky]

If they are the same group, The Witches, Witches and Warlock and the Montells, or line up changes with name changes, then who are Glenda and Ray Jeff Lemlich talks about? I would guess there would be more than one female in Witches and Warlock and just the one male if the "Ray" was involved?

Some great info though and food for thought and thanks for the link Tony.

[Steve G]

If they are the same group, The Witches, Witches and Warlock and the Montells, or line up changes with name changes, then who are Glenda and Ray Jeff Lemlich talks about? I would guess there would be more than one female in Witches and Warlock and just the one male if the "Ray" was involved?

Some great info though and food for thought and thanks for the link Tony.

The "Ray" was Raymond Berry. I think he might be mistaken on Glenda though.

[Agentsmith]

correct me if im wrong, but dosnt the john broven article sort of dispel the theory that these groups are one and the same? scanning that article, its clear that the montells consisted of mary and, laterally charlotte parsons who were sisters. both ended up singing on behind locked doors and i summise nowhere to run, though its clear from that article there was some form of personal dispute and that line-up almost immediately dispersed after the sew city session with their then, unbeknown relative, matt. i think sew city was matt parson's operation solely...and there's obviously no mention of the girls cutting anything under the name, the witches, though there is the connection with bert berns...the alternative theory, if there is one at all, is...they moonlighted for bern's bang label...its the only release by this name, in 1965 and it does have the sound, perhaps they were trying to mimic in 1963 when the crystals and ronnettes stole the charts and everyone else wanted to be spectorish in production....by 65 this type of production was considered old hat, time had moved on and even the soul music berns was producing for the drifters and ben e. king didnt have the clout to chart ( the unreleased "getting to me", championed by adey is a prime example of what was considered then, a dated sound...not to us of course! ). maybe the glenda & ray discussed here joined the band, witches & the warlock on the track they cut for calla?.

[Soulfulsolutions]

Fantastic dancer on Bang "She's Got You Now" but anyone know who they actually are?

Cracking group, or should I say coven, great voices, poor stage outfits....

[Agentsmith]

just checked out calla records, release 108 in 1965, entitled "heavenly love" and of course nate maccalla's label was coincidentally, new york based...pity we dont have a soundclip & label scan up so we can see who the songwriters/ producers are and see if there's a distinction in the vocals. the u.k. president release of behind locked doors credits the late kimberley briggs husband, freddie as the songs author. there just appears no connection at all between groups and berns is not responsible for writing any of the songs connected with witches & the warlock.

[Garethx]

correct me if im wrong, but dosnt the john broven article sort of dispel the theory that these groups are one and the same? scanning that article, its clear that the montells consisted of mary and, laterally charlotte parsons who were sisters. both ended up singing on behind locked doors and i summise nowhere to run, though its clear from that article there was some form of personal dispute and that line-up almost immediately dispersed after the sew city session with their then, unbeknown relative, matt. i think sew city was matt parson's operation solely...and there's obviously no mention of the girls cutting anything under the name, the witches, though there is the connection with bert berns...the alternative theory, if there is one at all, is...they moonlighted for bern's bang label...its the only release by this name, in 1965 and it does have the sound, perhaps they were trying to mimic in 1963 when the crystals and ronnettes stole the charts and everyone else wanted to be spectorish in production....by 65 this type of production was considered old hat, time had moved on and even the soul music berns was producing for the drifters and ben e. king didnt have the clout to chart ( the unreleased "getting to me", championed by adey is a prime example of what was considered then, a dated sound...not to us of course! ). maybe the glenda & ray discussed here joined the band, witches & the warlock on the track they cut for calla?.

Interesting you should mention "Gettin' To Me" as that's also an Artie Butler arrangement like the Wiches 45.

[Steve G]

correct me if im wrong, but dosnt the john broven article sort of dispel the theory that these groups are one and the same? scanning that article, its clear that the montells consisted of mary and, laterally charlotte parsons who were sisters. both ended up singing on behind locked doors and i summise nowhere to run, though its clear from that article there was some form of personal dispute and that line-up almost immediately dispersed after the sew city session with their then, unbeknown relative, matt. i think sew city was matt parson's operation solely...and there's obviously no mention of the girls cutting anything under the name, the witches, though there is the connection with bert berns...the alternative theory, if there is one at all, is...they moonlighted for bern's bang label...its the only release by this name, in 1965 and it does have the sound, perhaps they were trying to mimic in 1963 when the crystals and ronnettes stole the charts and everyone else wanted to be spectorish in production....by 65 this type of production was considered old hat, time had moved on and even the soul music berns was producing for the drifters and ben e. king didnt have the clout to chart ( the unreleased "getting to me", championed by adey is a prime example of what was considered then, a dated sound...not to us of course! ). maybe the glenda & ray discussed here joined the band, witches & the warlock on the track they cut for calla?.

John Bowden's a nice guy but his interest comes about because his wife was the daughter of the guy that run Golden Crest. Therefore I wouldn't say he has the difinitive word on what happened to Golden Crest groups after they left Golden Crest. Am pretty certain it's the same group, yes they did have some line up changes (nothing unusual there) and Matt Parsons who was at Golden Crest later recorded them on his Sew City label. Perfectly reasonable that they would have a cut a 45 with Bert Berns / Artie Butler etc. early in 65, post Golden Crest and before Sew City (66)....It's just too unlikely to have 2 x groups in NY with such a God damn awful name....

Edited February 25, 2013 by Steve G

[Chalky]

Like Steve i found it unlikely that there are two groups in the same city to use basically the same name and that they are the same group after line up changes. Again as Steve says nothing unusual there, countless groups we know went through changes, not many didn't. The label number put the recording at May 1965 if you look at the discography on 45cat. The name Warlock probably retained by Bert Berns and the Warlock added to carry on at Sew City.

[Robbk]

Here's The Calla record:

The Producer is New York's Richard Rome. Little Jerry Williams (Swamp Dogg) was co-writer along with Rome on one side, Verdell Smith wrote the other (perhaps she was married to "Buddy Smith", or was his sister? Despite the credits not producing another connection, I'd say there's NO doubt that it's the same group on all 3 labels (potentially with group member changes-but the same origin). Two different NY Soul groups with the same unique name existing at the same time would be absurd.

Edited February 25, 2013 by RobbK

[cementman]

I'm probably muddying the waters, but I recall reading somewhere that they were connected with or interchanged with members of the Exciters.

Somewhat similar sounding backing voices

[Roburt]

I've asked Swamp Dogg (Jerry Williams) to send his thoughts back to the 60's to try to pull up his recollections on the group & his work with them.

........ He says he's gonna get back to me & I'll pass along what he reports.

As an opener, he tells me he has enough tracks (under his juristiction) to put out an album full of their (the Witches & a Warlock) tracks and has been considering doing this recently ...... SOUNDS MOST INTERESTING .........

Swamp was involved with the Miami based BRA label and so no doubt he had something to do with "Behind Locked Doors" appearing as a release on the label.

Edited February 26, 2013 by Roburt

[Roburt]

Swamp got back to me with a quick piece of related info .............

He states that he worked quite a bit with Matt Parsons in the early 60's -- they wrote songs and produced tracks together.

Sometimes Matt used Nostrap instead of his real name to ID some of that work.

Some examples of artists they worked with were Little Jerry (Williams), J.D. Bryant, Freddie Houston, Tony Middleton, etc.

........... PLUS of course, Witches & the Warlock ...... below a scan of their BRA 45 ..........

[Roburt]

A new newspaper article on Swamp ...... the 1st Dogg on the Block ............

 

 By Randall Roberts

Los Angeles Times Pop Music Critic

July 25, 2013, 11:08 a.m.

 

Those not familiar with the iconoclastic soul artist Swamp Dogg might know him through his biggest hit, "Don't Take Her (She's All I've Got)," which hit the top five twice in the 1960s and '70s.

If not for that, perhaps you've seen the singer, songwriter, producer, psychedelic soul music purveyor on some of the most surreal album covers of the 1970s. Dogg, born Jerry Williams Jr., also penned gems later recorded by Bob Dylan, Irma Thomas, Patti LaBelle and dozens of others.

Williams will make a rare appearance at the Echo on Saturday night, where he’ll perform songs from throughout his career. The impetus?

His tripped-out early 1970s albums “Total Destruction to Your Mind,” “Rat On!” and “Gag a Maggot” (the latter featuring a cover replete with Swamp's head floating amid a pile of garbage)  have just been reissued by label Alive Naturalsound, bringing back to life work that combined lyrics about politics, race and psychedelia through frantic early 1970s soul. “Total Destruction,” in fact, was recorded at the legendary Muscle Shoals studios in Alabama, and its dozen songs are wild, singular gems.

“Sitting on a corn flake, riding on a roller skate,” he sings to open the title track, a rollercoaster jam of wah-wah pedal, brass, humming organs and a choice break. Elsewhere on the album he offers stream-of-consciousness lines such as  “Spirit dust your head color red/Sparkle your insides pink with pleasure/Waves splash, silver your sky” before moving into a series of “la la la” vocal melodies.

“The World Beyond” is written about a time after the world has ended. “Tell me about the automobile,” sings Swamp. “How did it run, and what was a wheel?/Did children stand up all alone?/I think that you’re putting me on.”

Some of the more out-there lyrics now sound dated, but the music stands up: This is serious soul music recorded by some masters of the genre.

Though born in Virginia, Williams has lived in the Valley for decades, but seldom plays live. His gig at the Echo will be part of Jeremy Sole’s excellent regular event “Funky Sole,” and it offers a rare opportunity to witness an unsung master in a live setting.   

Edited August 17, 2013 by Roburt

[45cellar]

Swamp got back to me with a quick piece of related info .............

He states that he worked quite a bit with Matt Parsons in the early 60's -- they wrote songs and produced tracks together.

Sometimes Matt used Nostrap instead of his real name to ID some of that work.

Some examples of artists they worked with were Little Jerry (Williams), J.D. Bryant, Freddie Houston, Tony Middleton, etc.

........... PLUS of course, Witches & the Warlock ...... below a scan of their BRA 45 ..........

 

J.D.Bryant on Vocals

 

 

WITCHES and the WARLOCK on SEW CITY

 

 

[Guest]

Here's The Calla record:

 

Pretty record...chugs along nicely...always liked this one

[Chalky]

Came up in another topic so I thought I'd add the info here as very relevant.

 

Originally the Montells (Golden Crest), The Pussy Cats (Keetch), The Witches (Bang), Witches And Warlock (Calla & Sew City)

 

The Montells on Golden Crest.

 

 

Witches and Warlock in 1967.  

 

L_R: Faye Barnes, Charlotte Parsons, Glenda Barnes & Raymond Berry.

​(courtesy of Mick Patrick/Ace records)