Do You Think Northern Soul Has A Legacy?

[viphitman]

oh and a huge bunch of old farts still dancing till dawn ;)

[Johnmcc]

.........................we have a duty never to forget the first world war and subsequent wars because of the sacrifice and in a not too dissimilar way, what we started must never be forgot........................

Pardon?

What an insensitive statement!

Edited February 23, 2013 by johnmcc

[Agentsmith]

Ever been abroad?

well cousin, ive had the s.p. from mr. taylor this morning and whilst it might be -8 in gothenberg, the music, atmosphere and the people are really hot, kiddies in unbridled jubilation, throwing theirselves round the dancefloor and he's been on this trip for getting on for 10 years now...think dunlop has probably taught them some welsh by now and flogged a few tasty tunes!...abba good time? the swedes know how to, and just for good measure what about rimmer & mr. preston's annual jolley to nurnburg?...plenty of tales of a great weekend and playing silly drunken buggers in the hotel lift!. and yes, i can also say, ive been abroad and frequented the very first rimini weekender and have the piccy's to prove how successful it was...and still is...we've not even mentioned the usa or the antipodes and what about collector-nuts japan?, and how many of them have dug the 100 club over the years?....as keb darge once remarked.."in a 100 years time you will be loving northern soul music and you will still be proud of it"...this generation wont be around no, but is anyone going to knock THAT man's ethic?.

Edited February 23, 2013 by AGENTSMITH

[Agentsmith]

Pardon?

What an insensitive statement!

explain...i for one, have the greatest of repect for our armed forces...there are a good many soulies who serve and have served and anyone who cared to observe last november's tower weekender, couldn't have failed to notice that the poppies were out force, displayed with pride. i am very humbled every year by remembrance sunday, my grandfather survived the first world war and my father served in the royal navy in the second and i have no place for insensitivity. youve taken that sentence out of context, i was referring to the fact that this beloved scene of ours is so cherished that the generations who take up the mantle, AS THEY SURELY WILL, will have pride in it the same way as we had, and have to this day.

[Hermanthegerman]

well cousin, ive had the s.p. from mr. taylor this morning and whilst it might be -8 in gothenberg, the music, atmosphere and the people are really hot, kiddies in unbridled jubilation, throwing theirselves round the dancefloor and he's been on this trip for getting on for 10 years now...think dunlop has probably taught them some welsh by now and flogged a few tasty tunes!...abba good time? the swedes know how to, and just for good measure what about rimmer & mr. preston's annual jolley to nurnburg?...plenty of tales of a great weekend and playing silly drunken buggers in the hotel lift!. and yes, i can also say, ive been abroad and frequented the very first rimini weekender and have the piccy's to prove how successful it was...and still is...we've not even mentioned the usa or the antipodes and what about collector-nuts japan?, and how many of them have dug the 100 club over the years?....as keb darge once remarked.."in a 100 years time you will be loving northern soul music and you will still be proud of it"...this generation wont be around no, but is anyone going to knock THAT man's ethic?.

??? never doubted you were, asked the toad guy

[Guest Garry Huxley]

f**kin hell gord,.....as donald sutherland ( oddball ) would say..."whats with the negative waves?"

Hey, Agent Smith Wanna rob a bank i know how to drive a tank ???

[KevH]

There's some big holes being dug on this thread. .

[Guest Krissii]

A great dance scene , that gave British working class people a weekend escape from thier everyday lives and still does

[Northernjordan]

Is the legacy not that people like me (19 years old) are sat in their room booming out original records that would have never seen the light of day without the scene?

[Agentsmith]

Hey, Agent Smith Wanna rob a bank i know how to drive a tank ???

wanna eat so cheese, drink some wine, catch some rays?

[Dave Rimmer]

Of course there is a legacy, and Ady hit it right on the head. The legacy is the fact that so much Soul music has been given a lease of life that in all likelihood it would never have had were it not for a UK fascination with the music.

But it goes further than that. The legacy is also the amount of written information that people on the 'Northern Soul Scene' have produced over the years that document the artists, the labels, the producers, the musicians, and everything else that is in addition to the music itself. You only have to read Andy Rix;s article on Margaret Little, or one of Rob Moss' interviews, or one of the many fanzines over the years, Or one of the booklets in a Kent CD, to realise that without guys like them recording this information it would be lost as time goes by.

So yes, there is a legacy, and that documenting of the music, and the people who made it, will remain available to others for well beyond our lifetimes.

As a footnote, I'd also add that Ady is being extremely modest in his post, because if you look at the work he has done at Kent, he has created his own legacy. Kent have released so many previously unheard tracks now, as well as making so much fabulous music available again in top quality sound, that the label rightly deserves it's place as one of the major labels for black music, and that is a legacy that anyone would be proud of.

[Guest Brian Fradgley]

Looking at future generations the answer is unfortuneately no, except in the probability that ensuing generations will profit by selling their parents/grandparents collections on ebay !!

But on a wider front I would like to think that my grandchildren would appreciate that the music, friendships coming from it, lifestyle, and dancing kept their grandparents happy, fit, and young at heart.

From many of the much maligned artists involved I would like to think that they realised that their music and artistry was appreciated and in some cases gave them an overdue payday on their visits to the UK.

As per previous replies, like rock and roll and blues, the music will live on - but not through future musicians/artists.

It is unique and a true treasure to generations fortunate enough to have lived through it.

[viphitman]

Looking at future generations the answer is unfortuneately no, except in the probability that ensuing generations will profit by selling their parents/grandparents collections on ebay !!

But on a wider front I would like to think that my grandchildren would appreciate that the music, friendships coming from it, lifestyle, and dancing kept their grandparents happy, fit, and young at heart.

From many of the much maligned artists involved I would like to think that they realised that their music and artistry was appreciated and in some cases gave them an overdue payday on their visits to the UK.

As per previous replies, like rock and roll and blues, the music will live on - but not through future musicians/artists.

It is unique and a true treasure to generations fortunate enough to have lived through it.

I just don't get it !!! In the mid/end 80's when in the UK ''only a handful were keeping the faith'' and most were also not aware of the popularity of Northern Soul in Europe, I would probably understand such statement. But now (with the internet to connect & inform people).... you have allnighters and collectors all over the world with sometimes a very young crowd.... A friend of mine was record hunting 3 weeks ago in some little village in the USA (he is a pro and goes 4 times a year and travels hundreds of miles each time he goes around)...... There he was thinking, lord this place is in the middle of nowhere I am not sure if I'll find a few goodies... ... I must have been the first human being asking for rnb & soul since.... ah well he was looking through some stuff somewhere and then he spotted a poster..... Northern Soul Night next Saturday !!!! So, there is a huge legacy !!

As for rnr and blues the scene has seen a huge revival with gigs, clubs, magazines, festivals all over europe !!!!!!

Edited February 25, 2013 by viphitman

[Chalky]

I just don't get it !!! In the 80' when in the UK only a handfull were ''keeping the faith'' and most were also not aware of the popularity of Northern Soul in Europe, I would probably understand such statement. But now (with the internet to connect & inform people).... you have allnighters and collectors all over the world with sometimes a very young crowd.... A friend of mine was record hunting 3 weeks ago in some little village in the USA (he is a pro and goes 4 times a year and travels hundreds of miles each time he goes around)...... There he was thinking, lord this place is in the middle of nowhere I am not sure if I'll find a few goodies... ... I must have been the first human being asking for rnb & soul since.... ah well he was looking through some stuff somewhere and then he spotted a poster..... Northern Soul Night next Saturday !!!!

As for rnr and blues the scene has seen a huge revival with gigs, clubs, magazines, festivals all over europe !!!!!!

Handful? Where do you get that figure from?

Of course there is a legacy. All the music that otherwise would have been forgotten about it is out there to be heard by other not just associated with the scene. The Americans have now also rediscovered much of what they ignored at the time, that wouldn't have been possible without the UK Northern Soul Scene. The music is also popular all over the world, not just Europe, that wouldn't have been possible anywhere except maybe Japan who bought anything American. Many of the artists have found recognition and a new lease of life thanks to the UK Soul Scene.

Even if the UK Soul Scene and as dance scene dies sometime in the future it will have left behind a mountain of music thanks to the DJ's, collectors and record labels like Kent, Soul Junction etc.

[viphitman]

Handful? Where do you get that figure from?

Of course there is a legacy. All the music that otherwise would have been forgotten about it is out there to be heard by other not just associated with the scene. The Americans have now also rediscovered much of what they ignored at the time, that wouldn't have been possible without the UK Northern Soul Scene. The music is also popular all over the world, not just Europe, that wouldn't have been possible anywhere except maybe Japan who bought anything American. Many of the artists have found recognition and a new lease of life thanks to the UK Soul Scene.

Even if the UK Soul Scene and as dance scene dies sometime in the future it will have left behind a mountain of music thanks to the DJ's, collectors and record labels like Kent, Soul Junction etc.

Chalky, we missunderstood each other !!! I believe that there is a huge legacy with all the aspects myself and others have mentioned in previous posts. I just don't understand when people say there isn't one. Btw I forgot the exclamation mark ... in saying ''onyl a handful''... and I completely agree with you that there is a very rich legacy of Northern Soul !!!

Edited February 25, 2013 by viphitman

[Geeselad]

personally It would be a little sad if NS only legacy was a few young retro revivalists, coping the moves and clothes there parents made 30 years ago. The scene in terms of inspiring a fascination with music and youth culture is certaily far more signifigant than that.

[Russ Vickers]

Musically, which I think most of us got into it for, it must be the preservation and documentation of a lot of black US 60s and 70s music.

Without the dedication and methodology of the Northern collectors who firstly scoured the US through buying trips and then through Internet contact, a sizeable chunk of wonderful music would have been lost to the world. Some would have come out or been appreciated in other ways but the fanaticism and motivation of Northern collectors, be it for money, glory or enjoyment, meant that many sides were discovered and preserved which would have been trashed without this appreciation. No doubt the B sides have also been saved for deep or southern soul appreciation too.

Though it seems crass to admit it, the crazy prices Northern collectors are prepared to pay for their treasures or trophies eventually awoke most US record dealers to the fact that these odd discs were worth seeking out and saving and many a gem got onto the rare soul world in this manner too.

To me, equally important is the fact that many artists now know the work they did was of musical value to a hidden transatlantic bunch of fans who were still dancing and loving their work several decades after it was deemed to be a flop in its home country. I know singers like Lorraine Chandler, Dean Parrish, Maxine Brown, Mary Love, Gigi and the Charmaines, The Velvelettes, Spencer Wiggins and Bettye Lavette are very appreciative of this.

I'll only touch on the social side of it but to have a dance floor full of originally mainly working class kids and young adults dancing on their own to emotionally charged soul music was quite a phenomenon that we can all feel proud of. It was liberating for men in particular many years before it became commonplace in British life.

And don't even get me started on master tapes and acetates.

What he said....with bells on !!!

Russ

[Sceneman]

it was of its time, a simpler time with a record player and a darkened club (with narcotics) ,and little competition unlike now ,whether it can endure all the competing fads who knows .a smartphone and coffees from starbucks eats up a lot more money now and less disposable for other things .

they may become like the piles of shellac 78s found in junk shops with few buyers ..in say 30 years time .

its gets harder to find replacement stylus as a few guys i know cant find another and dont plan on buying another record player ,so their record collection gathers dust in the cupboard ..

Edited February 25, 2013 by sceneman

[viphitman]

it was of its time, a simpler time with a record player and a darkened club (with narcotics) ,and little competition unlike now ,whether it can endure all the competing fads who knows .a smartphone and coffees from starbucks eats up a lot more money now and less disposable for other things .

they may become like the piles of shellac 78s found in junk shops with few buyers ..in say 30 years time .

its gets harder to find replacement stylus as a few guys i know cant find another and dont plan on buying another record player ,so their record collection gathers dust in the cupboard ..

vinyl is more profitable than producing cds for some manufacturer and even smaller record labels (depends on various factors such as distrubition)

vinyl is of better quality and has strong cultural values in comparison to CD's/downloads

in many countries vinyl sales are on the increase (Germany: 2011 1,65 million new records)

cd sales are falling fast while download sales go up but at the same time the value of physical ownership (for the listener) of music is on the increase

so vinyl will remain a niche market but profitable enough and prefered by many people that it will not just disappear ;)

btw. the figures do not include second hand vinyl

Edited February 26, 2013 by viphitman

[Ady Croasdell]

vinyl is of better quality and has strong cultural values in comparison to CD's/downloads

Not better sound quality, when done correctly digital is better, that's why everything went digital. We're happy to do vinyl but know that digital is the best way of hearing the music.

[Pete S]

I think Europe ploughes it's own path. For sure the UK scene has influenced the rest of the world but different countries have different scenes which are different and have a different slant on things. Are we getting the word 'different' here?

I find European audiences much more tolerant on musical tastes generally. Plus younger and with less baggage. All of which means a more refreshing, invigorating take on things. It's a different attitude entirely which I personally like. In many ways they're the perfect audience!

Ian D

Well it's true. Apart from the people who can afford to go to these European events, and the ones that dj at them, who else gives a toss what happens in Europe? I dunno, let's ask the 300 people dancing to ancient oldies at Goodyears tonight "Excuse me do you have a deep interest in the European Northern Soul scene?" "Er, what European Northern Soul scene" would be the reply from Joe Public.

And don't go slagging off Toad (not you Ian) when half of you had retired from the scene and taken a 20 year rest, he was someone who went and supported the venues week in and week out so his opinion does actually matter to some readers.

So great, there's a thriving scene in Europe and thats brilliant, but it wouldn't have existed had it not been copied from Britain in the first place, would it? And thats all Toad was saying.

[Pete S]

Not better sound quality, when done correctly digital is better, that's why everything went digital. We're happy to do vinyl but know that digital is the best way of hearing the music.

Yes that would be the sensible answer for most people.

But I've always felt that off the master tapes music is just to clean and clinical.

Especially when in stereo.

Murky mono for me everytime.

And I"m not being contrary for the sake of it, I really believe that.

[Agentsmith]

Of course there is a legacy, and Ady hit it right on the head. The legacy is the fact that so much Soul music has been given a lease of life that in all likelihood it would never have had were it not for a UK fascination with the music.

But it goes further than that. The legacy is also the amount of written information that people on the 'Northern Soul Scene' have produced over the years that document the artists, the labels, the producers, the musicians, and everything else that is in addition to the music itself. You only have to read Andy Rix;s article on Margaret Little, or one of Rob Moss' interviews, or one of the many fanzines over the years, Or one of the booklets in a Kent CD, to realise that without guys like them recording this information it would be lost as time goes by.

So yes, there is a legacy, and that documenting of the music, and the people who made it, will remain available to others for well beyond our lifetimes.

As a footnote, I'd also add that Ady is being extremely modest in his post, because if you look at the work he has done at Kent, he has created his own legacy. Kent have released so many previously unheard tracks now, as well as making so much fabulous music available again in top quality sound, that the label rightly deserves it's place as one of the major labels for black music, and that is a legacy that anyone would be proud of.

fantasic appraisal of mr. croasdell dave, a more honest tribute could not suffice, indeed the man is a genius of our time because he took the next step on the primordial ladder in commiting to cds and the digital age to give us this splendiferous sound, preservation for all time long after the beat up vinyl is retired...on that subject, its most comforting that the contribution made by northern soul to the wider contemporary music scene, is already gracing our museums, noteably dundee, which i visited a couple of years ago and would recommend to anyone wanting to see a nostalgic display so proudly alloted its own unique space.

[Pete S]

fantasic appraisal of mr. croasdell dave, a more honest tribute could not suffice, indeed the man is a genius of our time because he took the next step on the primordial ladder in commiting to cds and the digital age to give us this splendiferous sound, preservation for all time long after the beat up vinyl is retired...

[Guest MrC]

[Ady Croasdell]

Yes that would be the sensible answer for most people.

But I've always felt that off the master tapes music is just to clean and clinical.

Especially when in stereo.

Murky mono for me everytime.

And I"m not being contrary for the sake of it, I really believe that.

But the original records came from the master tapes. By using them digitally you do not lose the different generations of sound by transferring them 5 or 6 times in the pressing process. If you just like a lower grade reproduction, stick a sock in the speakers of your CD player

I tend to mono frequently but digital mono is better quality than analogue mono too.

[Pete S]

But the original records came from the master tapes. By using them digitally you do not lose the different generations of sound by transferring them 5 or 6 times in the pressing process. If you just like a lower grade reproduction, stick a sock in the speakers of your CD player

I tend to mono frequently but digital mono is better quality than analogue mono too.

Do you know what I mean though about it sounding clinical, it's like you could probably hear the sound of a pin dropping in the studio. I feel the same about stereo albums though, e.g. the Danny Wagner album with I Lost A True Love, the track sounds feebles with all the instruments separated but really powerful on the mono 45.

I do realise I am on my own with this one.

[Ady Croasdell]

PS I think GarethX has either got a good sense of humour, is full of mischief or is conducting a sociological experiment. He's not been on here since has he?

I'm not sure why some of the replies were so vitriolic, he merely put a question out there. It's not really outrageous that we may have done a bit of good (or bad) in our 45 year pursuit of this music. I also found it rather self-centred that some people found their own particular era was the one that mattered the most. For each fan their time on the scene is what they enjoy their most but others have their heyday before or after.

[Ady Croasdell]

Do you know what I mean though about it sounding clinical, it's like you could probably hear the sound of a pin dropping in the studio. I feel the same about stereo albums though, e.g. the Danny Wagner album with I Lost A True Love, the track sounds feebles with all the instruments separated but really powerful on the mono 45.

I do realise I am on my own with this one.

It's still a learning curve and as I said I agree that a lot of times stereo detracts from a song. If I ever use it on 60s tracks nowadays I tend to keep it very narrow as those songs were not intended to be stereo when recorded. Just occasionally it actually enhances the recording. I think you're making a bit too much of a generalisation, I know you weren't particularly enamoured with the Pied Piper CD but tracks like Tony Hester Just Can't Leave You sound incredible from the master; in mono too. And there are some good examples on Kent 30, which you did like, too.

[Pete S]

It's still a learning curve and as I said I agree that a lot of times stereo detracts from a song. If I ever use it on 60s tracks nowadays I tend to keep it very narrow as those songs were not intended to be stereo when recorded. Just occasionally it actually enhances the recording. I think you're making a bit too much of a generalisation, I know you weren't particularly enamoured with the Pied Piper CD but tracks like Tony Hester Just Can't Leave You sound incredible from the master; in mono too. And there are some good examples on Kent 30, which you did like, too.

I only wasn't enamoured because I thought there was too much filler on it...especially the last 3 tracks...but interesting you mention Tony Hester, I played that 10 minutes ago because I'm going to be selling a copy tomorrow, and I played the cd version after it, yes it does sound fantastic on cd but if I had to choose...

[Guest gordon russell]

Handful? Where do you get that figure from?

Of course there is a legacy. All the music that otherwise would have been forgotten about it is out there to be heard by other not just associated with the scene. The Americans have now also rediscovered much of what they ignored at the time, that wouldn't have been possible without the UK Northern Soul Scene. The music is also popular all over the world, not just Europe, that wouldn't have been possible anywhere except maybe Japan who bought anything American. Many of the artists have found recognition and a new lease of life thanks to the UK Soul Scene.

Chalkey ...have to agree with the above.........so the legacy is THE MUSIC LIVES ON.....quite right!!.......

[Guest gordon russell]

Not better sound quality, when done correctly digital is better, that's why everything went digital. We're happy to do vinyl but know that digital is the best way of hearing the music.

One of the charms of a lot of 60's records is the fact that the sound,production,and sheer rawness of em....are what enhances em....like a lot of things in life.....the more perfect they are the less we seem to like em.......funny old world

[KevH]

Not better sound quality, when done correctly digital is better, that's why everything went digital. We're happy to do vinyl but know that digital is the best way of hearing the music.

Are you sure Ady.? There's a train of thought at the moment among the audio world,that cd's offer a flat sound in regard to upper and lower limits,therefore a more clinical sound.Some young bands are even wanting to record onto vinyl to get a more authentic feel !!!

Apparently vinyl offers a depth that cd's can't compete with.(which is something some of us would be able to relate to)

Bring back 8 track recording.!!!

Edited February 26, 2013 by KevH

[Ady Croasdell]

One of the charms of a lot of 60's records is the fact that the sound,production,and sheer rawness of em....are what enhances em....like a lot of things in life.....the more perfect they are the less we seem to like em.......funny old world

I think you're missing my point. I agree with you about the rawness but that's still on the CDs which use the same master tapes as the original vinyl singles. To hear something in worse quality is like going to an art gallery and looking at paintings through slightly clouded glass.

[Ady Croasdell]

Are you sure Ady.? There's a train of thought at the moment among the audio world,that cd's offer a flat sound in regard to upper and lower limits,therefore a more clinical sound.Some young bands are even wanting to record onto vinyl to get a more authentic feel !!!

Apparently vinyl offers a depth that cd's can't compete with.(which is something some of us would be able to relate to)

Bring back 8 track recording.!!!

That's only if the CDs are limited or compressed for whatever reason, usually because whoever put them out don't know what they're doing. We wouldn't do that. If digital and analogue are reproduced to the same high standards (or less if they are done equivalently) the digital will be better because it has not had to be reproduced so many times in the process of pressing the vinyl.

[Guest gordon russell]

I think you're missing my point. I agree with you about the rawness but that's still on the CDs which use the same master tapes as the original vinyl singles. To hear something in worse quality is like going to an art gallery and looking at paintings through slightly clouded glass.

not quite sure l agree with you.............because some purists love a painting or a piece of antique furniture as long as it has been left as is,once restored all is lost , however l do take your point...

[jocko]

Chalkey ...have to agree with the above.........so the legacy is THE MUSIC LIVES ON.....quite right!!.......

Of course there is a legacy, and Ady hit it right on the head. The legacy is the fact that so much Soul music has been given a lease of life that in all likelihood it would never have had were it not for a UK fascination with the music.

But it goes further than that. The legacy is also the amount of written information that people on the 'Northern Soul Scene' have produced over the years that document the artists, the labels, the producers, the musicians, and everything else that is in addition to the music itself. You only have to read Andy Rix;s article on Margaret Little, or one of Rob Moss' interviews, or one of the many fanzines over the years, Or one of the booklets in a Kent CD, to realise that without guys like them recording this information it would be lost as time goes by.

So yes, there is a legacy, and that documenting of the music, and the people who made it, will remain available to others for well beyond our lifetimes.

As a footnote, I'd also add that Ady is being extremely modest in his post, because if you look at the work he has done at Kent, he has created his own legacy. Kent have released so many previously unheard tracks now, as well as making so much fabulous music available again in top quality sound, that the label rightly deserves it's place as one of the major labels for black music, and that is a legacy that anyone would be proud of.

These 2 get it to the bone, one more succinctly than the other! But equally eloquent and correct.

Not going to praise Ady directly, his growing head must be an easy target for the fast bowlers now he is single handedly being given credit for inventing CD's and the soul music market, sure Kent's parent company Ace won't be bothered at being written out of history!

[Kev John]

Yes there will be a legacy

Agree with PeteS that some of us have been away for 20yrs

When i came back into the fold again & started collecting i did not want to get into all the Same old Same old stuff i wanted to get

X the Board tunes and play different tunes That can get played in Big Rooms

Yes some of them are fogotten oldies but a lot of them were nu to me at the time i'm always trying to find nu tunes to me

I have never had a wants list as it restricts a view of the music we all love it's in my blood till i die now

Djing is secoundary collecting comes first imho

atb Kev

[Guest micky p]

northern soul has been my life for as far back as i can remember ! but u know when people say about money "spend it cos u cant take it with u" ! well to be honest northern soul is me, is my life, its mine mine mine and im taking it with me ! northern soul is inpregnated into my very soul ! northern soul will always be there in history but weather or not it will have any kind of following nobody knows ! but do us care if wa dead ?