Questions, Always Questions.....detroit Related?

[Robbk]

Not according to Mercury Records press briefings given at the very end of 1965 & reported by the likes of Billboard. See below .........

........ seems Mercury were takin loads of outside guys on at that time; Curtis Mayfield, Major Lance, Chip Taylor, Shadow Morton, Dave Bartholomew, Jerry Ross, Ted Cooper, Carl Spencer, Pac 4, Major Bill Smith & Bob Bateman .............

I'll stick by my statement that Mercury Records never took Robert Bateman on as staff.  He was an independent contractor that, by contract, took on the production of three recording projects of artists signed to Mercury Records.  He wasn't hired on staff as a producer or A&R man, like he was at Motown and Correc-Tone Records, and Van McCoy was taken on at Columbia and Gary Paxton and Dave Axelrod were at Capitol, and Carl Davis was at Okeh and Brunswick, and Billy Davis was at Chess.

 

At the same time as he worked for Mercury, he was working on several other projects for major and indie labels.

 

I'm guessing that Philips 40338, "Practice What You've Been Preachin' "/"No Matter What You Do To Me" by The La Vettes is one of the three.  I assume that The Fashioneers on Blue Rock is the second.  But, I can't figure out what the 3rd is.

 

Does anyone know of a 3rd Mercury release with Bob Bateman involvement?  Maybe a Lew Courtney record?

[Roburt]

The news article says Bob B was working on tracks by Johnny Robinson back then.

Johnny Robinson had a 45 out on Mercury in 1965; a 2 part song "I Gotta Kick The Habit" (I don't know who produced that). 

However, the teaming with Bob Bateman doesn't seem to have been successful as no Johnny Robinson 45's escaped on Mercury in 1966.

There was a Johnny Robinson recording around then. That Johnny Robinson went on to have deals with Okeh & Epic but was recording (for Strike) as just Johnny R' around 1966.

..... see .......... https://www.sirshambling.com/artists_2012/R/johnny_robinson/index.php

[Roburt]

The Johnny Robinson who cut for Okeh recorded "Gone But Not Forgotten" (& "I Need Your Love So Bad") with Mike Terry producing ......

... 

 

Guess it was a 'Detroit recording' then. 

His 'Memphis High' Epic album (cut in Memphis with Willie Mitchell) would be a good candidate for CD reissue in my book.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Roburt

[Robbk]

The Johnny Robinson who cut for Okeh recorded "Gone But Not Forgotten" (& "I Need Your Love So Bad") with Mike Terry producing ......

... 

 

Guess it was a 'Detroit recording' then. 

His 'Memphis High' Epic album (cut in Memphis with Willie Mitchell) would be a good candidate for CD reissue in my books.

As far as I know "Detnew" Music stood for "Detroit New" and was a Detroit production team (Don Juan Mancha, Freddie Gorman, Mike Terry, Mikki Farrow) also produced The Little Foxes on Okeh, also recorded in Detroit.

 

So, The Johnny Robinson project at Mercury could have been Bateman's 3rd Mercury production, despite never making it to vinyl.

[Roburt]

Moving on then ......... this time to Geraldine Hunt.

She was born in St Louis but her family moved to a (very rough) part of Chicago when she was still young. She started singing early and was 'discovered' in the early 60's. She had 45's out on labels with Chicago connections but worked with people from Detroit (Mike Hanks, etc). She had releases on Katron (picked up by Checker), USA and Bombay, Mike Hanks being involved with cuts she had out on all those labels. Summer 66 and Bob Catron got her signed to ABC with Johnny Pate producing her for the company. She cut a duet with Charlie Hodges that charted for Calla in 1970. More 45's followed, many on Roulette. In the mid 70's, she moved to Canada and ended up having big disco hits into the 80's.

 

So which (if any) of her early tracks count as DETROIT ??

 

Two fine (one 60's / one 70's) Chicago linked outings ............

 

 

 

Edited May 19, 2013 by Roburt

[Roburt]

The two posts above have a common link .............

Geraldine Hunt was signed up (managed?) by Bob Catron. Bob worked for & ran a number of labels, one of those he worked for was Witch.

On Witch, he had the Versalettes recording under his supervision. After the label was shut down, they licensed a couple of later (Detroit cut) Versalettes tracks to Okeh ......

..... but they called the group the Little Foxes for the purposes of their Okeh 45. 

 

So it seems that Bob Catron cultivated strong Chicago / Detroit links.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Roburt

[Robbk]

Catron invited Mike Hanks to come to Chicago to work on her Katron/Checker and USA records.  So, I would say that Geraldine Hunt's recordings and releases shouldn't count AT ALL as being "Detroit" records.  The background tracks were also recorded in Chicago.

 

On the other hand, the ex-Versalettes/Trinkets, now as The little Foxes, recorded their vocals in Detroit, and their instrumentals were also recorded in Detroit with Mike Terry running the sessions.  So, clearly that Okeh release (like Johnny Robinson) should be considered a Detroit record.

[Premium Stuff]

So what about Sandra Philips on Okeh then? 

 

Similar Mike Terry credits - written by Bridges, Knight & Eaton - but where was it actually recorded?

 

Richard

[Robbk]

I would guess that Mike Terry ran that session in Detroit, rather than going to New York to do it.  In the Little Foxes and Johnny Robinson cuts (more so in The little Foxes) I hear specific Detroit session players.  In The Sandra Phillips, I can't really pick out any, but it sounds somewhat like several Detroit tracks.  My guess is that Mike Terry and Don Mancha created Detnew productions to work on contracted independent productions for major labels, and worked on The Little Foxes, Johnny Robinson and Sandra Phillips on a contract with Okeh Records.  The Little Foxes were from Chicago, Phillips from new York, and johnny Robinson through Okeh's NY office (he was produced by Ted Cooper before).

 

Bridges, Knight and Eaton also worked with Mike Terry for Columbia/Epic/Okeh for Maxine Brown's Epic album and singles.

[Premium Stuff]

One record that many seem to think is a Detroit record, but which I think was done in New York is Bill Hambric - She Said Goodbye/I Found True Love (Drum).

 

The Detroit connection is through song writing credits to Don Juan Mancha - although I believe he worked in New York and several other locations as well as Detroit.

 

Also, the record featured in Rod Dearlove's A Collectors Guide to Detroit , which has probably helped to sustain the assumption it is a Detroit recording.

 

'I Found True Love' does sound a bit Detroit, having said all that.

 

So - is it in or out for inclusion in a Detroit collection? 

 

Cheers

 

Richard

[Robbk]

Don Juan Mancha stated in an interview that he spent some months working in New York in the mid '60s, and that he wrote and produced and recorded the 2 songs on Billy Hambric's Drum Records release while in New York. I believe that Mancha used Richard Tee's band to record them.  Drum was financed by a New York financier, and, thus, was a New York label.  Mancha later moved to Chicago, but bounced between Chicago and Detroit to work on different recording projects.

Edited November 9, 2013 by RobbK

[Premium Stuff]

So Billy Hambric is definitely out as a Detroit record, even Detroit-related.

Cheers

Richard

[Robbk]

So Billy Hambric is definitely out as a Detroit record, even Detroit-related.

Cheers

Richard

It's Detroit related, only in the sense that it was written by Detroit writer, Don Juan Mancha, but while he was in New York.  It's Detroit-related as Maxine Brown's ABC song, written by Curtis Mayfield (while he was in New York) is a Chicago-related record (or the same as the Jalynne records with songs written by Curtis Mayfield, but written, produced and recorded in New York).

[Premium Stuff]

It's Detroit related, only in the sense that it was written by Detroit writer, Don Juan Mancha, but while he was in New York.  It's Detroit-related as Maxine Brown's ABC song, written by Curtis Mayfield (while he was in New York) is a Chicago-related record (or the same as the Jalynne records with songs written by Curtis Mayfield, but written, produced and recorded in New York).

 

Thanks Robb, understand.

 

So just to be absolutely clear ... it's a New York artist - on a New York label - arrangement, recording and production all done in New York by people who were mainly New York people, and when they were in New York - and the songwriter was working in New York at the time that the song was written and/or recorded, even though they also worked at other times in Detroit - plus while some of the other people involved with the record also worked in Detroit at other times, this was not the case when this record was done in New York.

 

So the only Detroit connection, as you said, is that Don Juan Mancha was a big figure in Detroit - but he was not working in Detroit at this time and in relation to this particular record.

 

Not therefore like some the Mike Terry stuff on Okeh which was essentially 'bought in' Detroit talent.

 

So Billy Hambric is not really a Detroit-related record - but Don Juan Mancha was  Detroit-related songwriter 

 

Not meaning to sound overly picky in any way - just trying to be really clear on the background to the record before I sell my copy which I have had for donkeys years (c. 1979) and bought it thinking it was a Detroit record.

 

Cheers 

 

Richard

Edited November 9, 2013 by Premium Stuff

[Robbk]

The mike Terry Okeh productions had Terry recording the background tracks in Detroit, and also, sometimes recording the vocals in Detroit (Little Foxes-although he brought them in, from Chicago). So, they were either partly or fully "Detroit Records", while Billy Hambric on Drum was not in any way a Detroit record.  Luther Ingram on HIB was a Detroit record.  His release on Smash was a New York record, despite both having Robert Bateman and Popcorn Wylie work on them.

[Guest UPTITE U250A]

I'm pretty sure we the people is 100% east coast with no other connections (although that record did get a lot of play in chicago...)

 

hi Boba,did you mean lots of radio plays or nightclub ?

[Robbk]

hi Boba,did you mean lots of radio plays or nightclub ?

I'm sure he means radio.

[boba]

yeah it got a lot of radio play in chicago. very rare for a random record like that (even though it was fairly major) to get play because radio was pretty locked down in chicago, only a few non-national hits got any real play in the '70s.