Grapevine, Kent, Etc. Original Master Tapes Or Dubs Off Records ?

[Guest OSCARP]

Hello to all concerned please could someone who has good knowledge of these re - issue /unreleased record companies please educate me on what comes from original Master tapes and what are dubs from vinyl, I have always been curious about this and need to be educated on this issue.

regards

Barry

[Peter99]

Hello to all concerned please could someone who has good knowledge of these re - issue /unreleased record companies please educate me on what comes from original Master tapes and what are dubs from vinyl, I have always been curious about this and need to be educated on this issue.

regards

Barry

"I need to be educated about this" made me smile Barry.

I'm no expert - there are plenty on here though, I think it's a mixture of both depending what is available. I suspect the master tapes are the best option. Like you, I'll be interested to see some replies from the likes of Ady C and others.

Peter

Edited December 21, 2012 by Peter99

[Guest OSCARP]

This stretches to Albums that have been re-issued on C.D. from obscure labels. I don't know where I heard this for example but I was under the impression that All the Arctic records tapes where dumped in a dustbin and a few where recovered by one of the companies chauffers. Another company which seems to re-issue lots from their catalogue are T.K. did'nt their tapes all burn in a fire at the wharehouse in the 80's.

[Prophonics 2029]

I find it quiet something. That master tapes of these records still survive even after all that CD & digital bull that hit the music industry in the 8 ts. Shrine!!!!!!!!!!!!.

[Ian Dewhirst]

Master tapes are becoming increasingly more difficult and more expensive to work with. Most U.S. companies view master tape retreival as a pain in the ass and a low profit centre, so they try and charge you the earth. Also there's no money in deep catalogue releases unless you're a specialist like Ace/Kent or Numero, so most companies don't have access to original master tapes as no one wants to spend the money on retreiving them and baking them (most 70's master tapes now need to be baked in an oven in order to use them).

It drives me mad as I would make access to master tapes a condition of the deal, but often the repertoire owners just can't be arsed to deal with digging the masters out of a storage facility in Encino or New Jersey. Nuts I know but that's how it is these days.

There is actually a sort-of underground network of people who get access to some masters and this is one of the areas which is interesting at the moment. Some of the greatest masters ever recorded are in private collections and not even available to the companies who actually own them.

Ian D

[Guest OSCARP]

Hi Ian............Which recent Deepbeats are from Master tape i.e. Tommy Young, Bobby Patterson, etc.

Barry

[Dave Thorley]

Master tapes are becoming increasingly more difficult and more expensive to work with. Most U.S. companies view master tape retreival as a pain in the ass and a low profit centre, so they try and charge you the earth. Also there's no money in deep catalogue releases unless you're a specialist like Ace/Kent or Numero, so most companies don't have access to original master tapes as no one wants to spend the money on retreiving them and baking them (most 70's master tapes now need to be baked in an oven in order to use them).

It drives me mad as I would make access to master tapes a condition of the deal, but often the repertoire owners just can't be arsed to deal with digging the masters out of a storage facility in Encino or New Jersey. Nuts I know but that's how it is these days.

There is actually a sort-of underground network of people who get access to some masters and this is one of the areas which is interesting at the moment. Some of the greatest masters ever recorded are in private collections and not even available to the companies who actually own them.

Ian D

Hi Ian

The number of times I've gone into an old out building, barn etc and found master tapes under piles of dried leaves, dead rats or the roof has been leaking in on them for over 30 years, shocking. But as you say owners don't care.

Dave

[Guest OSCARP]

I understand about the "baking " of celluoid Tapes etc. but my Main point of interest is what re-issues/unrelaeased records from the major re-issue labels Kent, Grapevine, outta sight, deepbeats, etc are from Master tapes and what is dubbed from Vinyl, please dont all plead the 5th amendment i would just like a honest answer from the owners of these labels.

Barry

[Ian Dewhirst]

Hi Ian............Which recent Deepbeats are from Master tape i.e. Tommy Young, Bobby Patterson, etc.

Barry

Deepbeats were from the early 90's Barry, I presume you mean Backbeats? Most of the Backbeats series are taken from earlier releases of which most were originally mastered from the tapes, but Backbeats is a budget series and thus re-mastering from analogue tapes would be way too expensive for a series which retails at a fiver a pop.

Ian D

[Guest OSCARP]

Thanks Ian for the reply much appreciated.

Barry

[Ian Dewhirst]

Hi Ian

The number of times I've gone into an old out building, barn etc and found master tapes under piles of dried leaves, dead rats or the roof has been leaking in on them for over 30 years, shocking. But as you say owners don't care.

Dave

What's really frightening is that when deals are done to secure catalogues, the physical masters are often the last thing to get mentioned in case they skewer the deal. A friend of mine has over 300 multi-tracks of classics from the 70's and 80's most of which are on major labels, which makes me think that previous reissues of these tunes have probably come from mixed-down 1/4 inch production masters. Many multi-tracks were disposed of in the late 80's when companies started digitising their catalogues and before the companies knew that there would be a boom in re-issues. Also it's amazing how many companies simply didn't want to retrieve their masters from studios when the studio closed down so often the studios would just dump 'em because they were too expensive to ship or store! Philadelphia International kept all their masters but they're one of the few!

Ian D

[Guest OSCARP]

Bless good old philly, Did carolyn Crawford have any more tracks in the can other than the one's released ??

[Dave Thorley]

What's really frightening is that when deals are done to secure catalogues, the physical masters are often the last thing to get mentioned in case they skewer the deal. A friend of mine has over 300 multi-tracks of classics from the 70's and 80's most of which are on major labels, which makes me think that previous reissues of these tunes have probably come from mixed-down 1/4 inch production masters. Many multi-tracks were disposed of in the late 80's when companies started digitising their catalogues and before the companies knew that there would be a boom in re-issues. Also it's amazing how many companies simply didn't want to retrieve their masters from studios when the studio closed down so often the studios would just dump 'em because they were too expensive to ship or store! Philadelphia International kept all their masters but they're one of the few!

Ian D

Here's a shocking story for ya Ian. Met Bobby Massey a few years ago, he had just moved back to Cleveland from Atlanta.He had moved some of his stuff down there which was stored in a basement. The basement got flooded and everything destroyed and throw in dumpsters. So he thought lets make a clean start, sell up and head home and get to work on some of his old Cleveland material Way Out, Saru, O'Jays, Daywood etc recordings. When he gets back to Cleveland the studio has changed hands, where he had all his masters stored and the new owners had thrown them all in a dumpster. He was heart broken, when I meet him he was in the process of setting up a new community studio.

[Jimmy Mack]

What's really frightening is that when deals are done to secure catalogues, the physical masters are often the last thing to get mentioned in case they skewer the deal. A friend of mine has over 300 multi-tracks of classics from the 70's and 80's most of which are on major labels, which makes me think that previous reissues of these tunes have probably come from mixed-down 1/4 inch production masters. Many multi-tracks were disposed of in the late 80's when companies started digitising their catalogues and before the companies knew that there would be a boom in re-issues. Also it's amazing how many companies simply didn't want to retrieve their masters from studios when the studio closed down so often the studios would just dump 'em because they were too expensive to ship or store! Philadelphia International kept all their masters but they're one of the few!

Ian D

so did motown thankfully ,they have 2 places to store all there stuff which must be sum size for all the tracks they have

[Guest OSCARP]

I am quite interested in the big companies that still keep/store their tapes - Polydor I am sure could do a great various artists c.d. , Mercury, etc. BUT MY MAIN INTEREST IS WHAT RECORDS THAT HAVE BEEN ISSUED BY GRAPEVINE, KENT, OUTTA SIGHT ETC. HAVE BEEN FROM TAPES AND WHAT IS DUBBED FROM VINYL.

[Premium Stuff]

I am quite interested in the big companies that still keep/store their tapes - Polydor I am sure could do a great various artists c.d. , Mercury, etc. BUT MY MAIN INTEREST IS WHAT RECORDS THAT HAVE BEEN ISSUED BY GRAPEVINE, KENT, OUTTA SIGHT ETC. HAVE BEEN FROM TAPES AND WHAT IS DUBBED FROM VINYL.

It's a good (and a straight) question mate

Aren't quite a few of the Grapevine ones from the disc?

Cheers

Richard

Edited December 22, 2012 by Premium Stuff

[Peter99]

It's a good (and a straight) question mate

Aren't quite a few of the Grapevine ones from the disc?

Cheers

Richard

That is what I thought about the Grapevine releases Richard. I think there's a thread on here about Sir Dickie and John Anderson ans some of the grapevine stuff.

Peter

[Guest OSCARP]

Hi Richard............When you say from the DISC do you mean dubbed from another copy of the record, and I have no idea what is from Master tapes and what is dubbed. If there is a mixture I would like to know the titles of which records are from what.

regards

Barry

[Premium Stuff]

And when it comes to the CD market aren't quite a few of the Goldmine/Soul Supply CDs done from discs - quite a lot I would have thought.

Cheers

Richard

[Premium Stuff]

Hi Richard............When you say from the DISC do you mean dubbed from another copy of the record, and I have no idea what is from Master tapes and what is dubbed. If there is a mixture I would like to know the titles of which records are from what.

regards

Barry

Yes, mate - that's what I mean. They record from an original record, not from tapes.

I'm guessing with my suggestions above, but I would have thought it unlikely that master tapes could be available for many of the songs, especially those where there is a wide variety of tunes on various artists compilations that are not themed by labels.

Cheers

Richard

[Guest OSCARP]

I hope someone like Ady would give me the definitive answer.

[Louise]

Hi Barry

Referring to your original question as to what tracks are mastered from original master tapes or 45's.

To expect label owners or employee's to go through their entire catalogue to give details to which is which is a bit like asking "How longs a piece of string".

New material isn't a problem but regarding older material this is where most of the problems can possible arise.

In a perfect world every record company or artist (independent vanity releases) would have kept and maintained their master tape properly but sadly this is not the case. So original records or acetates have to be used more or in some cases if their is damage to the master tape and the necessary restoration work cannot rectify the problem a record may have to be used in conjunction with the tape to achieve the required standard of sound reproduction.

Barry's original question only ever really arises with previously issued material, this reminds me of a little story from a few years ago. when a former big noise radio DJ was praising the re mastering quality of one of our earlier Soul Junction releases, while making derogatory remarks against one of the at the time Kent CD releases. As I also owned a copy of the Kent CD I asked the DJ to tell me the name of the person responsible for the mastering on the CD cover (to which the answer i already knew) which he did. To which I replied that has we use the same company as Kent for our mastering did he not realise that it was the same person who was responsible for the mastering on both projects! both of which sounded great. After a couple of uncomfortable seconds of silence I told the said DJ that he needed to get his ears syringed, get a life and stop trying to be too clever.

Dave

P.S The said DJ and I no longer speak, I wonder why?

Edited December 23, 2012 by Louise

[Mark S]

If I recall correctly the Grapevine copy of Rosemary was recorded from Carl Willinghams copy

[Pete S]

If I recall correctly the Grapevine copy of Rosemary was recorded from Carl Willinghams copy

Mark the version of Rosemary on Grapevine is a previously unissued version with extra backing vocals.

Edited December 23, 2012 by Pete S

[Mark S]

Mark the version of Rosemary on Grapevine is a previously unissued version with extra backing vocals.

You,re right Pete I recall a coversation with Carl at the time about it , I,m sure they were considering useing his copy it was such a long time ago

[Guest OSCARP]

Hi Barry

Referring to your original question as to what tracks are mastered from original master tapes or 45's.

To expect label owners or employee's to go through their entire catalogue to give details to which is which is a bit like asking "How longs a piece of string".

New material isn't a problem but regarding older material this is where most of the problems can possible arise.

In a perfect world every record company or artist (independent vanity releases) would have kept and maintained their master tape properly but sadly this is not the case. So original records or acetates have to be used more or in some cases if their is damage to the master tape and the necessary restoration work cannot rectify the problem a record may have to be used in conjunction with the tape to achieve the required standard of sound reproduction.

Barry's original question only ever really arises with previously issued material, this reminds me of a little story from a few years ago. when a former big noise radio DJ was praising the re mastering quality of one of our earlier Soul Junction releases, while making derogatory remarks against one of the at the time Kent CD releases. As I also owned a copy of the Kent CD I asked the DJ to tell me the name of the person responsible for the mastering on the CD cover (to which the answer i already knew) which he did. To which I replied that has we use the same company as Kent for our mastering did he not realise that it was the same person who was responsible for the mastering on both projects! both of which sounded great. After a couple of uncomfortable seconds of silence I told the said DJ that he needed to get his ears syringed, get a life and stop trying to be too clever.

Dave

P.S The said DJ and I no longer speak, I wonder why?

Hi Dave...........Thanks for the reply 75% of what you said I already knew, but maybe when some company re-releases a single or Album it would be nice if they stated that it was from original tapes or not in their release notes. I am not against buying re-issued material dubbed from a record for home listening, but would be more discerning to put a dubbed record into my collectors box, It is much nicer if it is off original master tapes and it is the first time to be issued in G.B. As you stated a well mastered single / C.D. is an aural pleasure when played on a decent Hi-Fi rig.

Kind regards

Hope you and louise are keeping well and good luck to your business.

[boba]

I don't understand the accusatory tone of asking what labels do what and asking for a straight answer. unless it's a bootleg company which generally never have access to master tapes, most reissue companies I know use master tapes when they are available. But, depending on the type of reissue, they may usually not be available. For example, if ace/kent is digging into a label catalog they might have a lot of tapes to transfer and select from. But if you're licensing something from a tiny label almost nobody has masters. I would say maybe 10% max of the producers I've met (of small label productions) have masters. Most of them think that they're still in storage at a studio they recorded somewhere (which in general is not true).

[boba]

Also, even if masters are available, the question is not as clear cut. Several versions may have been mixed originally, a 1/4" mixed down master of an unreleased version might be the only one available (this actually happened with the numero release of Wee "try me", even though I think they didn't realize until afterwards). If the multitrack masters are available you have to do a new mixdown, and a lot of effects may have been added originally at mixdown time. A more authentic reissue would be to take the 45 and do a good remastering job from the vinyl. Numero uses peerless mastering to master off their vinyl and they spend a ridiculous amount of time doing it (they basically use cedar in manual mode where they listen click by click).

[Wiggyflat]

Can anybody confirm re UK sixties reggae releases whether masters were used as I've had about 4 copies of Jackie Mittos Ram Jam and they all sound as though they are dubbed from a scratchy 45.I always thought Ace sourced from master tapes as as the sound on the Kent lps and Cds is second to none and minty copies if there is no access to tapes.Master tapes do end up in odd places.I was involved in recovering Cat Stevens masters ......but that's another story.

[Guest OSCARP]

Hi Bob..........Sorry that you think that I used an accusatory tone, none was intended just an answer to a simple question. Lots of people are under the impression certain re-issues are from original tapes because of the good examples that these leading re-issue companies have for obtaining unreleased material. I. E. in the Wants section a few days ago someone wanted a copy of the Montclairs - Hey you dont fight it ( you must read the various answers to this Ad to get the jist of where I am coming from on original/dubs ) I suggested that they buy the re- issue on Grapevine and save their money for other Goodies ( I was under the impression that it was from the original tapes.

[boba]

I'm just trying to explain that the question doesn't make sense, as it's done on a case-by-case basis and master tapes are rarely available, or only available depending on what material is being licensed. You can't make a generalization for a whole label, unless the label never uses masters. In my experience every label that has access to masters will use them.

[Guest OSCARP]

Why can't said companies just put From Original Tapes or whatever in their release notes ?? as or when each release becomes available / released.

Edited December 23, 2012 by OSCARP

[Peter99]

I don't understand the accusatory tone of asking what labels do what and asking for a straight answer.

Don't think Barry was using any tone really Bob - probably got lost across the Atlantic. I think it was an innocent enough question from someone who is trying to increase their knowledge about certain things - like most of us on here.

[Peter99]

I was involved in recovering Cat Stevens masters ......but that's another story.

I used to love watching Cat Weazle.

Peter

[Premium Stuff]

Why can't said companies just put From Original Tapes or whatever in their release notes ?? as or when each release becomes available / released.

You could maybe write to them suggesting it. It's a good idea.

Maybe some would not want to though as they might think dubbed from a record sounds like what we can all do at home anyway.

Something like 'fully remastered from original vinyl recording' might work maybe?

Cheers

Richard

[Pete S]

Can anybody confirm re UK sixties reggae releases whether masters were used as I've had about 4 copies of Jackie Mittos Ram Jam and they all sound as though they are dubbed from a scratchy 45.I always thought Ace sourced from master tapes as as the sound on the Kent lps and Cds is second to none and minty copies if there is no access to tapes.Master tapes do end up in odd places.I was involved in recovering Cat Stevens masters ......but that's another story.

I'd say 50% of 60's ska and reggae tracks are dubbed from disc. So many UK releases are dull in comparison to the Jamaican originals. Good example, The Wailers - Whats New Pussycat, try and hear both releases, what a difference.

[dthedrug]

I'd say 50% of 60's ska and reggae tracks are dubbed from disc. So many UK releases are dull in comparison to the Jamaican originals. Good example, The Wailers - Whats New Pussycat, try and hear both releases, what a difference.

HI ALL PETE You are right, but unless it was recorded in the UK or made in JA for the UK when the master stamper was sent over, I have assumed that every thing on a UK LABEL from 1958 to 1974 is a DUB RECORDING from DISC 45, DAVE K

[Ady Croasdell]

Hello to all concerned please could someone who has good knowledge of these re - issue /unreleased record companies please educate me on what comes from original Master tapes and what are dubs from vinyl, I have always been curious about this and need to be educated on this issue.

regards

Barry

The earlier Kent singles were probably about 50/50 dubs and master tapes as we weren't as good at getting the (masters, particularly for singles for some reason). By the 90s we would be up to 90% from masters and nowadays 95% +. I think all the CITY singles are from masters as virtually all were previously unreleased.

I think the Goldmine ones would be all dubs apart from the previously unissued ones as they did not like using masters if there was vinyl to dub from for economy and simplicity.

[Ady Croasdell]

This stretches to Albums that have been re-issued on C.D. from obscure labels. I don't know where I heard this for example but I was under the impression that All the Arctic records tapes where dumped in a dustbin and a few where recovered by one of the companies chauffers. Another company which seems to re-issue lots from their catalogue are T.K. did'nt their tapes all burn in a fire at the wharehouse in the 80's.

Arctic would have been safe at Jamie I think, dunno about TK. Some companies did lose the lot but not too many and even if they did there are often copies to be found through producers, European licensees or other sources.

[Ady Croasdell]

Hi Barry

Referring to your original question as to what tracks are mastered from original master tapes or 45's.

To expect label owners or employee's to go through their entire catalogue to give details to which is which is a bit like asking "How longs a piece of string".

New material isn't a problem but regarding older material this is where most of the problems can possible arise.

In a perfect world every record company or artist (independent vanity releases) would have kept and maintained their master tape properly but sadly this is not the case. So original records or acetates have to be used more or in some cases if their is damage to the master tape and the necessary restoration work cannot rectify the problem a record may have to be used in conjunction with the tape to achieve the required standard of sound reproduction.

Barry's original question only ever really arises with previously issued material, this reminds me of a little story from a few years ago. when a former big noise radio DJ was praising the re mastering quality of one of our earlier Soul Junction releases, while making derogatory remarks against one of the at the time Kent CD releases. As I also owned a copy of the Kent CD I asked the DJ to tell me the name of the person responsible for the mastering on the CD cover (to which the answer i already knew) which he did. To which I replied that has we use the same company as Kent for our mastering did he not realise that it was the same person who was responsible for the mastering on both projects! both of which sounded great. After a couple of uncomfortable seconds of silence I told the said DJ that he needed to get his ears syringed, get a life and stop trying to be too clever.

Dave

P.S The said DJ and I no longer speak, I wonder why?

Hi Dave...........Thanks for the reply 75% of what you said I already knew, but maybe when some company re-releases a single or Album it would be nice if they stated that it was from original tapes or not in their release notes. I am not against buying re-issued material dubbed from a record for home listening, but would be more discerning to put a dubbed record into my collectors box, It is much nicer if it is off original master tapes and it is the first time to be issued in G.B. As you stated a well mastered single / C.D. is an aural pleasure when played on a decent Hi-Fi rig.

Kind regards

Hope you and louise are keeping well and good luck to your business.

When it comes to CDs, I would guess Ace/Kent would be 95% tape since we started.

[Ady Croasdell]

Why can't said companies just put From Original Tapes or whatever in their release notes ?? as or when each release becomes available / released.

Ace/Kent has a very good reputation for using masters wherever possible and spending a lot of time and money through our own studios to make it as good as possible. There are inevitably the odd dub on a CD, but a Kent dub would sound hugely different to some other companies dubs because of the work put into it so it is probably best to work out your own preferences for whichever labels you purchase.

[Ady Croasdell]

You could maybe write to them suggesting it. It's a good idea.

Maybe some would not want to though as they might think dubbed from a record sounds like what we can all do at home anyway.

Something like 'fully remastered from original vinyl recording' might work maybe?

Cheers

Richard

As Bob pointed out what full time post-production studio engineers with state of the art technology, can do with a dub is a long way above anything possible on a home PC set-up.

[Ady Croasdell]

Tony Rounce told me that most Stateside releases were dubbed from disc, whereas most London were from tape. Ace have accessed many of those London tapes which often the label owners don't have.

I met a UK mastering engineer who was present when the UK head of CBS brought in a well played copy of Scott McKenzie 'If You're Going To San Francisco' and said it was going to be a smash and he should get it pressed up. When asked when the master would arrive he was told to do it from disc and that was when cleaning up disc technology was not available. Subsequent CD releases often used that crap dub.

[Guest]

As Bob pointed out what full time post-production studio engineers with state of the art technology, can do with a dub is a long way above anything possible on a home PC set-up.

Too true! I remember watching/listening as an engineer processed a scratched/clicking 7" recording...he removed the clicks totally using the Cedar software (as mentuined by Boba)...incredible results!

[Rotherham Soul]

wasn't the London demo of Darrel Banks Our Love/Open The Door To Your Heart a disc dub whereas the SS copy was from tape?( or was it the other way round)?,sure i've read that all the red Atlantics were dubbed from disc, and all the early Tamla -Motown singles were disc dubs too!

Edited December 27, 2012 by rotherham soul

[Rotherham Soul]

The Du-ettes every beat of my heart on President is certanly a disc dub ,as is The Showmens Our Love Will Grow & Take It Baby on Action

[Rotherham Soul]

Tony Rounce told me that most Stateside releases were dubbed from disc, whereas most London were from tape. Ace have accessed many of those London tapes which often the label owners don't have.

I met a UK mastering engineer who was present when the UK head of CBS brought in a well played copy of Scott McKenzie 'If You're Going To San Francisco' and said it was going to be a smash and he should get it pressed up. When asked when the master would arrive he was told to do it from disc and that was when cleaning up disc technology was not available. Subsequent CD releases often used that crap dub.

Frankie Fords Sea Cruise on London certanly sounds like a disc dub sounds bloody awful

[Ady Croasdell]

wasn't the London demo of Darrel Banks Our Love/Open The Door To Your Heart a disc dub whereas the SS copy was from tape?( or was it the other way round)?,sure i've read that all the red Atlantics were dubbed from disc, and all the early Tamla -Motown singles were disc dubs too!

That's one for Tony, President/Joe Boy certainly had a huge cache of tapes and many would be from masters though it was probably a bit random then as sound quality wasn't as paramount or well understood as it is now.

[Ady Croasdell]

Frankie Fords Sea Cruise on London certanly sounds like a disc dub sounds bloody awful

It was a generalisation, I'm sure some were dubs

[Guest OSCARP]

Thanks Ady for your time & answers it is much appreciated, I spend a lot of money on C.D's and a few re-issued material so it's nice to hear from one of the Major players in this field.

All the best

Barry