Motown Demo's...the Green And White?

[Guest MissHongkongfuey]

Morning all,

Was asked over the weekend why some Motown demos are green, and others are white with a big red "A".

I've never been a collector of Motown and have no idea but said I would ask on here and get some info if possible.

Many thanks in anticipation.

Teresa

[TOAD]

r&w 6ts g&w 7ts then blue from 78 ?

[Guest MissHongkongfuey]

Thanks Tim ... Was asked at the weekend and really had no idea at all.

You're a gud un!! xx

[Pete S]

Morning all,

Was asked over the weekend why some Motown demos are green, and others are white with a big red "A".

I've never been a collector of Motown and have no idea but said I would ask on here and get some info if possible.

Many thanks in anticipation.

Teresa

Teresa - EMI ran several labels in the 60's including Capitol, Liberty, UA, Tamla Motown, Stateside etc.

All of them used a white demo with a red A from approx 1961 onwards.

In very late 1966, early 1967 they decided for some reason to change the demo designs to a green label with a white A.

(A couple changed to pink with silver A)

At the same time, Pye and it's subsidiaries changed their labels from plain white demos with black A's to a yellow demo.

I still don't know why this happened, I'd love someone to tell me, all it appears to coincide with is the end of the pirates and the start of Radio 1.

[Guest s0ul45]

Like Pete I don't know the exact reasoning behind the change of style and colour but for Tamla Motown, Stateside and Liberty it seems to have occurred in October 1966 but for Capitol it was definitely later, in 1967. Why?

[Pete S]

Like Pete I don't know the exact reasoning behind the change of style and colour but for Tamla Motown, Stateside and Liberty it seems to have occurred in October 1966 but for Capitol it was definitely later, in 1967. Why?

There's got to be a transition period for example Ray Charles "I don't need no doctor" is a green and white, but there are red and white's AFTER that one's catalogue number. Release date 67. I used to know a few examples of this...brain not what it was!

[Pete S]

I've seen some really weird demos from the 67/68 period on MGM and Verve, they go from pink and silver to pink and white, and are pressed with solid centres on what seems like styrene, with stuck on labels - anyone familiar with these?

[Becket]

I have a UK demo of Kim Weston - That's Groovy (MGM 1357).

As Pete stated, this is a Pink label with a White A - both stuck on. Underneath it looks like the EMI white test presses that exist of some 45's Typed matrix no , title , artist.

Record Details

Artist: Kim Weston » MORE Label: MGM » MORE Country: UK Catalogue: MGM 1357 Date: 20 Oct 1967 Format: 7" Collection: I Own It I Want It Community: 1 Owns

Track Artist Title Composer Producer Rating A Kim Weston That's Groovy V. Basemore, T. Nixon Mickey Stevenson Rate

Images

[Guest s0ul45]

There's got to be a transition period for example Ray Charles "I don't need no doctor" is a green and white, but there are red and white's AFTER that one's catalogue number. Release date 67. I used to know a few examples of this...brain not what it was!

Actually the Ray Charles is stamped 1966 Pete, although it may of course have been issued in early '67. Are you sure there are R&W's after that? The only one I have is 'Movin' Away' and that's G&W.

[Guest in town Mikey]

Flower power. LSD. Everythinggetting more colourful?

[Pete S]

Actually the Ray Charles is stamped 1966 Pete, although it may of course have been issued in early '67. Are you sure there are R&W's after that? The only one I have is 'Movin' Away' and that's G&W.

There's definitely R&W's after that, I wouldn't have remembered otherwise, though I might be talking about the wrong title! What I"m saying is - some red and whites appear after green and whites. It might be a Kenny Lynch 45 on HMV I'm thinking of actually...It's Too Late maybe..

[Pete S]

Ah here we are

https://www.45cat.com/label/his-masters-voice/26

now POP 1577 and POP 1585 are definitely red and white, I have actually got 1595 on a red and white demo.

But they come right in the middle of green & whites.

So maybe they were prepared for release then held up?

[Pete S]

I have a UK demo of Kim Weston - That's Groovy (MGM 1357).

As Pete stated, this is a Pink label with a White A - both stuck on. Underneath it looks like the EMI white test presses that exist of some 45's Typed matrix no , title , artist.

Record Details

Artist: Kim Weston » MORE Label: MGM » MORE Country: UK Catalogue: MGM 1357 Date: 20 Oct 1967 Format: 7" Collection: I Own It I Want It Community: 1 Owns

Track Artist Title Composer Producer Rating A Kim Weston That's Groovy V. Basemore, T. Nixon Mickey Stevenson Rate

Images

Thats interesting as I"ve never seen one with the label peeled off, I have had a record like that test press though, think it was by Bill Medley on a Verve test press

[Gene-r]

Ah here we are

https://www.45cat.com...asters-voice/26

now POP 1577 and POP 1585 are definitely red and white, I have actually got 1595 on a red and white demo.

But they come right in the middle of green & whites.

So maybe they were prepared for release then held up?

Is it possible that EMI used whatever was left of their red and white demo label stock in 1967, just as an attempt to get rid of them?

Edited December 10, 2012 by Gene-R

[Sean Hampsey]

Is it possible that EMI used whatever was left of their red and white demo label stock in 1967, just as an attempt to get rid of them?

Yes - Very possible.

The Red A sheets will have always been printed in massive quantities, to be overprinted later in black.

Printing is the same as any other manufacturing process. There'll always be old stock pulled out and used when there's a shortage.

As an aside, I'm always bemused by record collectors who think there's something 'mystical' about the process. How? Why? What did this signify? Why is this issue red when others are green etc? When in most cases the differences or peculiarities just meant the stock of one colour or a particular ink wasn't available... and the printer just wanted to get off work on time!

Sean

[Pete S]

Yes - Very possible.

The Red A sheets will have always been printed in massive quantities, to be overprinted later in black.

Printing is the same as any other manufacturing process. There'll always be old stock pulled out and used when there's a shortage.

As an aside, I'm always bemused by record collectors who think there's something 'mystical' about the process. How? Why? What did this signify? Why is this issue red when others are green etc? When in most cases the differences or peculiarities just meant the stock of one colour or a particular ink wasn't available... and the printer just wanted to get off work on time!

Sean

Come on Sean, thats what collecting is all about, interesting label variations etc.

[45cellar]

Have also seen Double A Red & White on a Cliff Richard single. (ON THE BEACH - MATTER OF MOMENTS) I think it was.

Are any Soul releases like this with a Double A.

[Pete S]

Have also seen Double A Red & White on a Cliff Richard single. (ON THE BEACH - MATTER OF MOMENTS) I think it was.

Are any Soul releases like this with a Double A.

Mary Wells - You lost the sweetest boy / Whats easy for two - Stateside demo

thats a double A

I've also seen a Shadows single with a big red B on the label!

[Guest s0ul45]

Mary Wells - You lost the sweetest boy / Whats easy for two - Stateside demo

thats a double A

I've also seen a Shadows single with a big red B on the label!

Yes Pete but there isn't a demo with an A on both sides is there? The Mary Wells was repromoted wasn't it. I know there are G&W demo's of Jimmy Mack/Third Finger Left Hand and Way Over There/If My Heart Could Tell The Story, and I think a Stevie Wonder 45 but the A's only appear on one side'

[Gene-r]

I've also seen a Shadows single with a big red B on the label!

That's right Pete - it was "The Dreams I Dream / Scotch On The Socks". Both sides of the demo had a "B" on the label as a tongue-in-cheek joke - however, stock copies of this sell for about £30 because "Scotch On The Socks" is a psych / freakbeat guitar instro!

[45cellar]

Thanks Pete, I do remember seeing a scan of The Shadows on a Red & White with a B.

The Mary Wells, not sure which side was promoted first.

This is the Cliff Richard record, just been and pulled it from storage.

Considering all the Soul records that were on EMI Distributed Labels, wondered if there were others.

[Pete S]

Yes Pete but there isn't a demo with an A on both sides is there? The Mary Wells was repromoted wasn't it. I know there are G&W demo's of Jimmy Mack/Third Finger Left Hand and Way Over There/If My Heart Could Tell The Story, and I think a Stevie Wonder 45 but the A's only appear on one side'

I thought there was an A on both sides of the Mary Wells - I wouldn't have imagined it, surely...maybe I had both copies at the same time once..

Edited December 10, 2012 by Pete S

[Pete S]

That's right Pete - it was "The Dreams I Dream / Scotch On The Socks". Both sides of the demo had a "B" on the label as a tongue-in-cheek joke - however, stock copies of this sell for about £30 because "Scotch On The Socks" is a psych / freakbeat guitar instro!

Yes it is isn't it, cracking tune.

I love The Shadows song titles, there's some right old puns tucked away on the B sides,

Genie with the light brown lamp

Rhythm and greens

Stars fell on Stockton

Theme from a filleted place LOL

Alice in Sunderland

Scotch on the socks

I wish I could shimmy like my sister Arthur

and so on

[Sean Hampsey]

Come on Sean, thats what collecting is all about, interesting label variations etc.

Oh, I get it Pete, I go all out to collect misprints and oddities, always have done, but, if you've worked in printing (as I have) its no great mystery.

That's why Gene's comment made such sense.

Some corporate bod at EMI decides to switch from 'Red A on White' to 'White A on Green' for all forthcoming Demo copies.

But there'll always be some bloke on the shop floor who says 'Yeh... right' especially if there's a few hundred quid tied up in old stock.

Agree it adds to the fun and its the errors and 'exceptions' that help create collectability - but when folk go looking for a 'reason' that's when I have to smile

[Roburt]

Were all EMI 45's (in the 60's) released in strict numerical order ?? (number always = date of release order).

I'm sure sometimes a release number would be allocated & then a 45's issue date moved forward or moved back. This would have happened with some US artist's releases if say, a tour was planned & then delayed or postponed (or if EMI suddenly realised a tour was upcoming).

... OR .... a 45 from say Bell was scheduled as 'just another release from that label' and then it went big in the US, so its UK issue date was moved & the 45 properly promoted.

Of course (as already stated), if a 45 was re-promoted, new copies (on the later label design) would be pressed up and sent out.

[Pete S]

Oh, I get it Pete, I go all out to collect misprints and oddities, always have done, but, if you've worked in printing (as I have) its no great mystery.

That's why Gene's comment made such sense.

Some corporate bod at EMI decides to switch from 'Red A on White' to 'White A on Green' for all forthcoming Demo copies.

But there'll always be some bloke on the shop floor who says 'Yeh... right' especially if there's a few hundred quid tied up in old stock.

Agree it adds to the fun and its the errors and 'exceptions' that help create collectability - but when folk go looking for a 'reason' that's when I have to smile

I'd love to know how labels were printed. Specifically, Jamaican records issued on UK labels. There are so many mistakes. Did they ring up from Jamaica and dictate stuff over the phone "Right our next Prince Buster record that we are sending you is called "She 'Pon Top"...."what's that, Sheep On Top?"...."Yes the's correct, She Pon Top". Record appears on Blue Beat 3 weeks later entitled Sheep On Top

[Roburt]

I have no idea how foreign to UK record label admin guy discussions were undertaken .........

... but for show ads, time was so tight that usually just a phone call took place.

Thus we have 100's of drastic spelling mistakes / name errors on such ads.

After Kim Tolliver joined Otis Redding's tour package, she was advertised as Kim Tarver for some weeks (I guess neither she or Otis actually got to see the newspaper ads involved for a while). No doubt similar mistakes were made on theatre posters / nameboards.

[Pete S]

I have a record by Aston Borrott on Escort, everyone in the reggae world surely knew the name Aston Barrett even in 1970.

One of my favourites has to be by a famous musician called Drumbago, credited on a Monty & Roy single on Blue Beat as "Lumbago"

[Roburt]

I have a record by Aston Borrott on Escort, everyone in the reggae world surely knew the name Aston Barrett even in 1970.

One of my favourites has to be by a famous musician called Drumbago, credited on a Monty & Roy single on Blue Beat as "Lumbago"

But if the instructions from the record company to their label printers were written in 'doctor's scrawl' & the guy at the printer's wasn't into music, it could easily have happened. Chinese whispers & all that.

Edited December 10, 2012 by Roburt

[Guest s0ul45]

Were all EMI 45's (in the 60's) released in strict numerical order ?? (number always = date of release order).

I'm sure sometimes a release number would be allocated & then a 45's issue date moved forward or moved back. This would have happened with some US artist's releases if say, a tour was planned & then delayed or postponed (or if EMI suddenly realised a tour was upcoming).

... OR .... a 45 from say Bell was scheduled as 'just another release from that label' and then it went big in the US, so its UK issue date was moved & the 45 properly promoted.

Of course (as already stated), if a 45 was re-promoted, new copies (on the later label design) would be pressed up and sent out.

Admittedly it's not the sixties but you could be right here Roburt. TMG 868 Let's Get It On is the last G&W demo and yet 867 is in the later black label A's. Martin & Finlay was probably scheduled for release earlier and then put back.

[Guest MissHongkongfuey]

Fascinating reading and much thanks for the contribution from You all.

The wealth of knowledge is gobsmackin'!!!

Ta muchly

[Guest julesp1905]

Have also seen Double A Red & White on a Cliff Richard single. (ON THE BEACH - MATTER OF MOMENTS) I think it was.

Are any Soul releases like this with a Double A.

I've got Nancy Wilson - Uptight/Troubles on Capitol with a Double A

[Gene-r]

I'd love to know how labels were printed. Specifically, Jamaican records issued on UK labels. There are so many mistakes. Did they ring up from Jamaica and dictate stuff over the phone "Right our next Prince Buster record that we are sending you is called "She 'Pon Top"...."what's that, Sheep On Top?"...."Yes the's correct, She Pon Top". Record appears on Blue Beat 3 weeks later entitled Sheep On Top

Like this one.......erm, "Thank The Lord" by any chance?

Edited December 11, 2012 by Gene-R

[Gene-r]

Yes it is isn't it, cracking tune.

I love The Shadows song titles, there's some right old puns tucked away on the B sides,

Genie with the light brown lamp

Rhythm and greens

Stars fell on Stockton

Theme from a filleted place LOL

Alice in Sunderland

Scotch on the socks

I wish I could shimmy like my sister Arthur

and so on

Also the B-side of Apache - "Quatermasster's Stores". Until recently, I didn't notice the deliberate misspelling (should be Quartermaster), which was titled due to "Quatermass" being shown on BBC TV at the time!

Edited December 11, 2012 by Gene-R

[Pete S]

Also the B-side of Apache - "Quatermasster's Stores". Until recently, I didn't notice the deliberate misspelling (should be Quartermaster), which was titled due to "Quatermass" being shown on BBC TV at the time!

I never noticed that either, good spot!

By the way I have that Doctor Bird 45 you posted above, they definitely sing "thank de lard for dis" but those are about the only words I can make out, the accent is that strong.

[Guest julesp1905]

Nancy Wilson Double A

[Pete S]

Like this one.......erm, "Thank The Lord" by any chance?

How about this one..Erroll Dunkley "Eunoch Power", and I love the explanation below from a biog of the singer...

The songs entitled "Eunuch Power" (a pun on the name of the leader of the National Front in the 1970's, Eunoch Powell)

Edited December 11, 2012 by Pete S

[Gene-r]

I never noticed that either, good spot!

By the way I have that Doctor Bird 45 you posted above, they definitely sing "thank de lard for dis" but those are about the only words I can make out, the accent is that strong.

Is the flip of the Doctor Bird 45 any good, Pete?

[Gene-r]

How about this one..Erroll Dunkley "Eunoch Power", and I love the explanation below from a biog of the singer...

The songs entitled "Eunuch Power" (a pun on the name of the leader of the National Front in the 1970's, Eunoch Powell)

It was a contender for the 1972 Noball Peace Prize............

[Pete S]

Is the flip of the Doctor Bird 45 any good, Pete?

Yes mate, very good instrumental, but the mastering is shocking on the Doctor Bird copy, you imagine if when you used to have a cassette deck and you turned the recording volume up to 10, this is what it sounds like - too loud and distorted but with a good tune underneath.

[45cellar]

Nancy Wilson Double A

Many Thanks. It is quite unusual for a record to be promoted in this way.

There are the Motown Re-issues in the TMG 600 Series with Back to Back A Sides TMG 684, 691, 694.

All had a defined A Side for the DEMO with the other consigned to the B

Would have thought that these would have been candidates for an A on each side too.

[Guest julesp1905]

Many Thanks. It is quite unusual for a record to be promoted in this way.

There are the Motown Re-issues in the TMG 600 Series with Back to Back A Sides TMG 684, 691, 694.

All had a defined A Side for the DEMO with the other consigned to the B

Would have thought that these would have been candidates for an A on each side too.

Not sure if it was the intention to promote both sides, or just a pressing error.

Bloody nice mistake if it was, as two good sides

[dthedrug]

HI ALL.... Great thread this one, however lacks pictures, so, there's many a slip twixt cup & lip. I have only heard the pirate radio story, yet major US LABELS also change in 68 DAVE K

[Gene-r]

Not sure if it was the intention to promote both sides, or just a pressing error.

Bloody nice mistake if it was, as two good sides

Probably tried to promote it as a double A-side, given that both sides were UK hits by other artistes prior to this.

[Mgm 1251]

On 10/12/2012 at 17:10, Pete S said:

 

 

Mary Wells - You lost the sweetest boy / Whats easy for two - Stateside demo

thats a double A

 

I've also seen a Shadows single with a big red B on the label!

Yes...here it is (not mine)