Roburt Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Seems that bootleg records have been about since records started being made. The big ticket items are of course the NS items + big rock acts live gig records. But lots of other examples come to mind .................. ............. some dating back to the early 60's ................ What labels (types of music) did the Mark Record Co of Utica, New York put out (legitimate stuff) ?? Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Roburt Posted November 16, 2012 Author Share Posted November 16, 2012 Then there was the infamous Raynoma / Mary Wells Motown 45 incident in March / April 64. I guess she got 'her copies' of "My Guy" made up at a 'non-standard' pressing plant ..... ........ so how do you tell her versions of that 45 from the legit Motown ones ?? Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Roburt Posted November 16, 2012 Author Share Posted November 16, 2012 Bootlegging was always a big problem in the far east ................... ............ the fall-out from 1970 incidents ................ Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Roburt Posted November 16, 2012 Author Share Posted November 16, 2012 ......... and problems 'off the beaten track' for the majors back in the US ............. An outfit operating out of New Mexico in 72/73 that were brought to book ............... Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Roburt Posted November 16, 2012 Author Share Posted November 16, 2012 .... & you had to be a very brave man to bootleg Morris Levy's 45's back in the mid to late 60's ............ .......... if he caught you, you would be hung out a 5th storey office block window no doubt .... Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
boba Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 There was different terminology back then. Repressing records and passing them off as from the company was called "Piracy". "Bootlegs" were illegal live recordings of concerts. It's also not comparable to now because the intention was different, it was to sell the records to people who wanted to hear them (records at one time were for people who wanted to listen to music and not to collect...). There are anti-piracy ads in different magazines, even throughout the 70s (I remember seeing one about 8-tracks). The first examples of "bootlegging" in the modern collecting sense were probably doowop "repros". Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Roburt Posted November 16, 2012 Author Share Posted November 16, 2012 There was different terminology back then. Repressing records and passing them off as from the company was called "Piracy". "Bootlegs" were illegal live recordings of concerts. It's also not comparable to now because the intention was different, it was to sell the records to people who wanted to hear them (records at one time were for people who wanted to listen to music and not to collect...). There are anti-piracy ads in different magazines, even throughout the 70s (I remember seeing one about 8-tracks). The first examples of "bootlegging" in the modern collecting sense were probably doowop "repros". Well back in NY in 1960, the police busted a 'bootleg record ring' .......... or at least that's what the newspaper article called it. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
boba Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 maybe it's not as clear cut as I said. the articles you quote about use the terms "pirates" "bootlegging" and "counterfeiting". At some point in time "bootlegs" were strongly associated with illegal live concert recordings that people traded tapes of though. 1 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Dave Moore Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 (edited) Then there was the infamous Raynoma / Mary Wells Motown 45 incident in March / April 64. I guess she got 'her copies' of "My Guy" made up at a 'non-standard' pressing plant ..... ........ so how do you tell her versions of that 45 from the legit Motown ones ?? John, The way her scam was tagged was when the Pressing Plant wrote to Berry Gordys attorney asking if these orders were kosher. I an't remember the plant offhand but Barry Simpson has the original letter with BGs response, (to his lawyer), handwritten on it. He and I traced the provenance of the documentation that came out of the Donovan Building together last year, also....The Jamie/Guyden distributed Dionn label had an issue with this in the mid 60s along with a few others in the NE States. Bootlegging could quite easily sink a release depending on the route they took to market. Regards, Dave Ah, I see you've seen the Billboard reference to it. Should have read all the thread first. Edited November 16, 2012 by Dave Moore Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Dave Moore Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 .... & you had to be a very brave man to bootleg Morris Levy's 45's back in the mid to late 60's ............ .......... if he caught you, you would be hung out a 5th storey office block window no doubt .... He probably did it it himself! Regards, Dave Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Peter99 Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Interesting stuff Roburt - no need to get caught up in semantics, it's an enjoyable read. Thanks for posting/sharing. Peter Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Pete S Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 There was different terminology back then. Repressing records and passing them off as from the company was called "Piracy". "Bootlegs" were illegal live recordings of concerts. It's also not comparable to now because the intention was different, it was to sell the records to people who wanted to hear them (records at one time were for people who wanted to listen to music and not to collect...). There are anti-piracy ads in different magazines, even throughout the 70s (I remember seeing one about 8-tracks). The first examples of "bootlegging" in the modern collecting sense were probably doowop "repros". Bob, bootleg lp's as we know them began in 1969, kicking off with the Great White Wonder (Bob Dylan), so in the years before that became part of the underground language I can understand why they used the term bootlegging. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
boba Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Bob, bootleg lp's as we know them began in 1969, kicking off with the Great White Wonder (Bob Dylan), so in the years before that became part of the underground language I can understand why they used the term bootlegging. I'm not 100% sure if you're trying to disagree or agree with me, but you're agreeing with me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_White_Wonder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootleg_recording "Bootleg" was used to describe a release of an unauthorized recording -- e.g. a live concert recording. This is different than a counterfeit of a released record. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Pete S Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 I'm not 100% sure if you're trying to disagree or agree with me, but you're agreeing with me: https://en.wikipedia....at_White_Wonder https://en.wikipedia....otleg_recording "Bootleg" was used to describe a release of an unauthorized recording -- e.g. a live concert recording. This is different than a counterfeit of a released record. I'm agreeing with you, but saying that the first real rock bootlegs as we know them, whether live recordings or unissued studio outtakes, really began with the disc I mentioned, in 1969. Most people if asked what a bootleg was they would say a live album. I know what a counterfeit is, it's a copy of a record designed to make people think it's an original - nothing to do with a 'bootleg' (as opposed to a 'pirate' which is like a counterfeit but makes no effort to look like the original) I had over 700 David Bowie bootlegs so I know a little bit about this... Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Wiggyflat Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 (edited) Bob, bootleg lp's as we know them began in 1969, kicking off with the Great White Wonder (Bob Dylan), so in the years before that became part of the underground language I can understand why they used the term bootlegging. You want to read a book called Days In The Life.... a gang of Jewish East End mods were behind this. They used to run the door at The UFO Club and kept the skinheads out.They were fleecing the hippies in 67/68 and money went into this venture.The book is by Jonathan Green.Oh yeah a live unofficial recording is a bootleg ...a copy of a soul disc is a pressing.... Edited November 16, 2012 by wiggyflat Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
boba Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 I'm agreeing with you, but saying that the first real rock bootlegs as we know them, whether live recordings or unissued studio outtakes, really began with the disc I mentioned, in 1969. Most people if asked what a bootleg was they would say a live album. I know what a counterfeit is, it's a copy of a record designed to make people think it's an original - nothing to do with a 'bootleg' (as opposed to a 'pirate' which is like a counterfeit but makes no effort to look like the original) I had over 700 David Bowie bootlegs so I know a little bit about this... thanks. why would a pirate copy not be made to look like an original? i have at least seen instances where "piracy" did refer to fake copies made to look real. p.s. you owned 700 david bowie LPs???????????? or you traded tapes of shows? I assume you also collected bowie LPs and 45s. Did you have the diamond dogs with the dog balls showing? Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Pete S Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 thanks. why would a pirate copy not be made to look like an original? i have at least seen instances where "piracy" did refer to fake copies made to look real. p.s. you owned 700 david bowie LPs???????????? or you traded tapes of shows? I assume you also collected bowie LPs and 45s. Did you have the diamond dogs with the dog balls showing? No I had maybe 150 Bowie vinyl bootleg albums and the rest were audio tapes, I actually recorded 13 shows on the 1987 tour myself! My ex wife ended up with all of the Bowie stuff. Hardly anyone has the original Diamond Dogs sleeve, it was pulled immediately and only pre-release copies are supposed to have escaped. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
boba Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 I don't need to hear your excuses about the diamond dogs sleeve. You were never a true bowie fan. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Robbk Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 I was around the whole period, and Bob A. is correct about the nomenclature. i'd say that the "Rock" bootlegs (piracy and illegal live recording) started before 1969 (maybe 1967 or so?). Piracy records were sometimes made to mimic the originals (sometimes no effort to disguise them). The Doowop "repros" were the first bootlegs I can remember (starting about 1960). There may have been some illegal pressing of stolen tapes before that. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Kris Holmes Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 (edited) A guy called Dino or Dante? Bendetti? (or something like that, an Italian name) was pirating Jazz 78s out of NYC as early as the 40s & setting them onto the collectors market. He was initially a collector himself & is listed in the International Jazz Record Collectors Guide/Address Book from the late 40s/early 50s. He got caught & prosecuted & had his records (both counterfeits & collection) destroyed. I believe he was going for a long time though, moving into LPs in the 50s. Would post more info but the magazines it is outlined in are deep filed somewhere at my work. I remember reading about it & thinking it was super early record piracy. Edited November 17, 2012 by Kris Holmes Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Kris Holmes Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 ah, just found this snip on Jstor. According to the article piracy of records began in the late 1930s and early 1940s when collectors of jazz music began to pirate records that they wanted but were not being reissued. Not much was done to stop these pirates because of the great expense and difficulty of legal action. Pirates were almost impossible to track down because of their frequent address and name changing. The introduction of long playing records aided in the expansion of pirating. These records were cheaper to produce and thus made for more profiting. In the early 1950s bootleg records were being distributed nationwide. One of the major pirating operations was Paradox industries which formed in New York under a man named Dante Bollettino. He marketed his records under the label "Jolly Roger." He basically took over the piracy market. He even had his own place of business in New York City. Record companies made many attempted to stop these pirates. In 1952 a case known as The Columbia Paradox case, the record production company Columbia and Louis Armstrong filed a lawsuit against the bootlegging company Paradox Industries and their president Dante Bollettino. Columbia was successful and the case led to the introduction and passing of the Bennett Bill which made record pirating a criminal offense. Many jazz addicts and critics said that pirating was not unethical. They said that pirates were just providing a desired work of art to a small audience because the major record companies are not willing to reissue the records. The record companies on the other hand said that some records were pirated even though they were easily obtainable which means that records were not just being pirated on the basis that they were not being reissued. They also said that the pirates were only trying to make easy money by taking works that others had payed full price for. This article gives information about early piracy in a form of media that may not have been thought of as being pirated. It helps to explain where piracy started in the music industry and how companies dealt with this piracy which is important to my topic of how piracy has evolved through different forms of music and what was done to combat the copyright infringement. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Pete S Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 I was around the whole period, and Bob A. is correct about the nomenclature. i'd say that the "Rock" bootlegs (piracy and illegal live recording) started before 1969 (maybe 1967 or so?). Can you name one that's earlier than 1969 then? I probably need to re-read Clinton Heylin's book on the subject but I'm positive he says the first accepted rock bootleg came out in 69. Not that I'm getting into an argument about it.. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Roburt Posted November 17, 2012 Author Share Posted November 17, 2012 (edited) RE: Paradox industries which formed in New York under a man named Dante Bollettino. He seems to have set up Paradox Records in 1949 ......... MARIE KNIGHT also gets a mention in this piece, though I don't believe she ever had anything released on Lee ... ........ .. about the same time that Dante opened Paradox, Don Robey got started .... the two guys must have both decided early on that they wouldn't steer a straight course !! Edited November 17, 2012 by Roburt Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Kris Holmes Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 RE: Paradox industries which formed in New York under a man named Dante Bollettino. He seems to have set up Paradox Records in 1949 ......... ........ .. about the same time Don Robey got started .... the two guys both decided early on that they wouldn't steer a straight course !! yep, but i am 100% certain he was pirating 78s for a while before then. Definitely out to test the waters a bit I would say. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Roburt Posted November 17, 2012 Author Share Posted November 17, 2012 (edited) Seems he started another label in January 1954 ................. Pax Records was formed in Union City. N. J. -- label execs were Dante Bollettino and Al Zimel. The firm specialized in putting out 'hot and cool jazz' .... no doubt he got the name by just shortening PAradoX ...... Edited November 17, 2012 by Roburt Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Kris Holmes Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 yeah, prosecution did not keep him out of the game for long Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Pete S Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 (edited) If ever you get the chance to find a copy, have a listen to the program at this link https://www.bbc.co.uk...rammes/b00g3yqn it's not available from the BBC but will be available from certain places, I have got it but would need to upload it somewhere Edited November 17, 2012 by Pete S Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Robbk Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 Can you name one that's earlier than 1969 then? I probably need to re-read Clinton Heylin's book on the subject but I'm positive he says the first accepted rock bootleg came out in 69. Not that I'm getting into an argument about it.. I'm sure you're quoting correctly. And, if you are referring to illegal sales of pressed records from illegal recordings of live concerts, that is probably true. It may also depend upon one's definition of "Rock Music". It's probably just a matter of semantics. To me, "Rock Music" includes "White" "Rock & Roll". Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest MBarrett Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 (edited) Outside of Pop/Rock the bootlegging of live performances definitely started before the 1960's. See here from - interestingly - the Gramophone column of the Times newspaper in 1958. Edited November 17, 2012 by MBarrett Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Get involved with Soul Source
Add your comments now
Join Soul Source
A free & easy soul music affair!
Join Soul Source now!Log in to Soul Source
Jump right back in!
Log in now!