Roburt Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 Down the years there have been a number of outfits that have used the name .... the Cavaliers ..... as soul fans we are mainly interested in the 1960's outfits that used the name but the others do make the facts surrounding the various groups harder to pin down. There were singing groups using the neme as far back as the 40's, more in the 50's & yet more in the 60's ..... .... this is an attempt at sorting them all out ............. As there were many sets of 'Cavaliers', here's info on a few of them ..... A photo of the DC based Cavaliers (taken outside a DC club where they had performed) will follow shortly. If I recall correctly, the Detroit related (RCA) Cavaliers included the brother of a Temptation (Paul Williams?) and were the group that became the Fellas that supported David Ruffin after he was kicked out of the Temptations. Not got the info with me at present but will sort it out & paste it here if no one else has it. Neither the Detroit connected or DC outfits had a white guy in their line-up, the photo of the group showing a white guy in the line-up is yet another version using the name (see later ad). ALSO ... the guys who helped form the Temptations, when they were still down in Birmingham, call themselves the Cavaliers for at least a couple of years (but didn't record under the name). A full run-down of the various groups who called themselves the Cavaliers should be drawn up & this is my attempt at making a start. The 1958 group .................
Roburt Posted October 24, 2012 Author Posted October 24, 2012 So the 1958 group recorded in New York .... .... & were the group that included a white guy ...
Roburt Posted October 24, 2012 Author Posted October 24, 2012 (edited) A bit on the 61 Cavaliers .... Anyone know anything more about them ? Edited October 24, 2012 by Roburt
Roburt Posted October 24, 2012 Author Posted October 24, 2012 1962 >> the Cavaliers (with Lloyd Nash) on Gum .... (sorry its a poor quality scan but you can just about make stuff out on it) ...
Roburt Posted October 24, 2012 Author Posted October 24, 2012 Another scan that shows info on the 62 Cavaliers 45 .....
Roburt Posted October 24, 2012 Author Posted October 24, 2012 Another outfit that used the name in the 60's .... .... this lot had some hits (but weren't soul related at all) ....
Roburt Posted October 24, 2012 Author Posted October 24, 2012 The RCA (Detroit) set of Cavaliers & a 1967 45 release .....
Roburt Posted October 24, 2012 Author Posted October 24, 2012 The RCA Cavaliers teamed up with David Ruffin after he was booted out of the Temptations. They became his 'Fellas' & even played live gigs with David until Motown got him to return as a solo artist ....
Roburt Posted October 24, 2012 Author Posted October 24, 2012 The DC based Cavaliers outside a Washington club ....
Roburt Posted October 24, 2012 Author Posted October 24, 2012 David Ruffin & the Cavaliers .............
Roburt Posted October 24, 2012 Author Posted October 24, 2012 The Cavaliers / Fellas after David Ruffin signed a solo deal back with Motown .... .... guess the label name should have read Gemini Star ...
Roburt Posted October 24, 2012 Author Posted October 24, 2012 (edited) The (RCA) Cavaliers / Fellas cutting for Gemini Star Records would certainly seem right, time scale wise .... ... though unless those recordings were put out under another group name, they didn't seem to escape from the tape vaults ... ......... anything much known about the Constellations ?? Edited October 24, 2012 by Roburt
Chalky Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 The Birmingham Cavaliers. Birmingham was where they were from, their place of birth. It was in Cleveland where they formed a group initially called the Cavaliers, they only sang locally, auditioning for the major acts that came through Cleveland hoping to get a deal. Sometime later, Milton Jenkins offered to take them to Detroit and renamed them the Primes.
Roburt Posted October 25, 2012 Author Posted October 25, 2012 The Birmingham Cavaliers. Birmingham was where they were from, their place of birth. It was in Cleveland where they formed a group initially called the Cavaliers, they only sang locally, auditioning for the major acts that came through Cleveland hoping to get a deal. Sometime later, Milton Jenkins offered to take them to Detroit and renamed them the Primes. .... MORE ..... Eddie Kendricks, Paul Williams, Willy Waller, and Kell Osborne, as the Cavaliers, sang in local talent shows with other up-and-coming Birmingham, AL, artists including Frederick Knight, Barbara Lomax (B.T. Express), and Richard Fisher (Jive Five). Kendricks and Williams moved to Cleveland, OH, in the late '50s and also performed around that area. The pair then hooked up with Cleveland natives Paul Hayes and Fred Fluellen but the ensemble never recorded. With nothing happening in Cleveland, manager Milton Jenkins took over the reins and persuaded Williams and Kendricks to move to Detroit. Kell Osborne joined them in Detroit; it's unclear whether Waller also moved up from Birmingham to join them in the motor city, but Detroiters don't recall him being on the scene. Jenkins next renamed the trio, the Primes. Kendricks & Williams both worked (back of house) at a hotel in Cleveland. In quiet times at the hotel, they would practise their singing. After getting the couple of locals to join them, they honed their harmony singing and even got to perform shows at the hotel where they worked in the city. Somewhere (!?!) I have the name of the hotel they worked in & may even have a photo of them taken there. 1
Chalky Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 Kell, Paul , Eddie and Willy performed as quartet in Birmingham but Willy Waller soon dropped out. Kell never mentioned a name for the group. The first time he said they were the Cavaliers was when they moved to Cleveland and began performing there. All three left Birmingham together, first for Cinncinatti and then onto Cleveland where school friend WIlly Waller was now residing. Kell and Eddie took jobs as dishwashers at the Majestic Hotel, later getting Paul a job as bell boy / dishwasher. They worked the Rose Room at the Majestic as the Cavaliers and got recognised by the local press who named them the Dishwashing Trio. The Cavaliers name was taken from a gospel group of the same name. All three left Cleveland together for Detroit as well after accepting Jenkins proposal to manage them, not two of them and Kell joining them later. Waller didn't go to Detroit, as far as I am aware he didn't even perform in Cleveland with them. All this info came from conversations I had with Kell Osborne. If you have a photo of them at the Majestic I'd be interested to see it as even Kell didn't have one. I have posted a photo of the three of them as the Primes which is the KO story.
boba Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 I have a photo of the RCA cavaliers somewhere. They were from Detroit. The constellations were originally from Chicago, then went to New York (which is where the gemini star recordings were done), then became dionne warwick's backing group and released two singles on her Sonday label. super talented showmen, supposedly. members on gemini star were Frankie Floyd, Zach Sanders, Bobby Earl Williams. Floyd and Williams had solo 45s on IX Chains, Sanders later sang in the Writers on Columbia.
Roburt Posted October 27, 2012 Author Posted October 27, 2012 Another piccy of 'the Cavaliers' ...........
Roburt Posted October 27, 2012 Author Posted October 27, 2012 The RCA group .......... info from Kent CD ..... The Cavaliers had these two different phases to their RCA career, starting off with self- penned Detroit dancers like 'Hold On To My Baby' and the unreleased 'Without Someone To Tell Me' on the initial four song session. They then recorded Banks and Kelley's 'Ooh It Hurts Me' along with their own 'It's Guaranteed' on a shorter second appointment. On their final session they cut two ballads originally written for Kenny Carter 'I've Gotta Find Her' and 'Living In The Land Of Heartache' along with Larry's own Kapp single track 'Muddy Water'. By then Joe Hunter had been replaced by New York veteran producer Teacho Wiltshire, and Larry and Teacho finally got credited as producers with Paul Robinson being "moved upstairs" to executive producer. The original 'Hold On To My Baby' session had BOBBY CROFT as the main lead singer on three of the four tracks while JOHNNIE WILLIAMS sang lead on the other. JEROME AVERETTE and KEITH ILLIDGE were the other members. By the second session WILLARD 'Jiggs' FRANKLIN JUNIOR had joined the group and by the final New York produced Bobby Croft had left, leaving Johnnie Williams to take all four solos. Keith Illidge, now known as Keith Loving, from his mother's maiden name, remembers the group singing the vocals over the musical tracks, which is surprising when only three hours studio time was allocated to producing four songs. He was the only instrument player in the group and would demonstrate the music for the other guys to work out the harmonies. Johnnie and Jerome originally came from Birmingham, Alabama, before making it to Detroit to seek their musical fame, while Keith, Bobby and Willard (aka Jigs) were motor city natives. 'Dance Little Girl' was mainly written by Keith about his daughter's mother, while 'Hold On To My Baby' was written at the very last minute mainly by Bobby Croft. The five-some were looked on as a second Temptations in Detroit, particularly as Jigs was Melvin Franklin's brother, Johnnie was Paul Williams brother and Jerome was a cousin of Eddie Kendricks. Keith remembers playing the 20 Grand club with James Jammerson in the house band. After RCA Jigs got drafted and the rest of the group moved to New York to try their luck. They backed David Ruffin for a while as The Fellas, though Bobbie had left by then. The rest of the group drifted back to Detroit but Keith stayed. Working as a studio guitarist he enjoyed much success touring with Harry Belafonte, even getting to perform in front of the Queen for her jubilee celebrations in 1977. He also worked extensively with the dancer and singer Gregory Hines and has been on countless hit studio sessions including Roberta Flack's "Feel Like Making Love", Donny Hathaway's "Extensions Of A Man" and even a live Barry Manilow album. Keith continues to record and is working on his own jazz CD with many illustrious musicians turning out on it for him. Sadly his cousin Bobby Croft passed away a couple of years ago and he has lost touch with the rest of the group. The Dynamics were another Detroit group who followed the same Detroit / NYC path that the Cavaliers did. Oddly though their first Joe Hunter produced session, which was of Detroit penned songs, included their recording of 'I Need Your Love', which was written by the Cavaliers though Keith can't remember the group or the song!
Roburt Posted October 27, 2012 Author Posted October 27, 2012 (edited) Info on tracks that Cav's member Keith Illidge (Keith Loving) played on after he quit the group (loads of top MS tracks involved) .... He obviously teamed up with Ashford & Simpson for most of the 70's AND even worked with the Softones in 1978 ...... https://www.discogs.c...1&t=Credits_All Edited October 27, 2012 by Roburt
puw Posted January 5, 2021 Posted January 5, 2021 Hi, I know the above is old and it's helped fill in some holes (so thanks for the above) as I've been digging away to try and understand what happened to the recordings when so few were released? Which singles/songs were recorded but never released. Who discovered them (Kent or Outta Sight)? Any idea on their discovery (a story or two perhaps)? What was the year of the recordings? Why were they not released? Who controlled them? With so many similar named groups, it's that much harder to try and work out answers to the above. Can anyone help please?
Robbk Posted January 5, 2021 Posted January 5, 2021 What about The Cavaliers that had a record out during 1963 on a Juggy Murray label that had songs written by Detroit songwriter/singer, Jesse Greer, who had been a member of a few well-known Detroit groups? Were they at all related to the RCA Cavaliers?
Robbk Posted January 5, 2021 Posted January 5, 2021 Yes. My old memory is failing me. And I'm away from my records.
puw Posted January 5, 2021 Posted January 5, 2021 10 minutes ago, Robbk said: Yes. My old memory is failing me. And I'm away from my records. Me too
The Yank Posted January 5, 2021 Posted January 5, 2021 4 hours ago, puw said: Which singles/songs were recorded but never released. What was the year of the recordings? Can anyone help please? I can answer some of your original questions. These songs were unreleased during the Cavaliers time at RCA - 1) "It's Guaranteed" - recorded Feb. 23, 1967 2) "Ooh, It Hurts Me" - also recorded Feb. 23, 1967 3) "Without Someone To Tell Me" recorded - July 18, 1966 4) "We Go Together" ( A remake of the Moonglows song) recorded with and without a rap intro All info is from these Kent CDs- "Rare, Collectable and Soulful Vol. 1 and 2 and the 3 Pied Piper CD's- "A New Concept in Detroit Soul", "Follow Your Soul" and "Finale" .
Robbk Posted January 5, 2021 Posted January 5, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, The Yank said: Do you mean the Chandeliers ? I've always wondered whether this Chandeliers group was a Detroit group, or the known New York group. Although Juggy Murray operated out of New York, he did lease at least one 45 production from Detroit (Freddie Brown's and Joe Hunter's "Toy Soldier" by Detroit's 1st Dramatics group. The songwriter was Detroit's Jesse Greer, who had been a member of Roger Craton's (Lee Rogers') Peppermints and Barons, and he wrote a lot of songs for Detroit singers and groups. I don't remember ever coming across any reference to a Detroit group by that name. The only New York Chandeliers I know of was the 1954-59 Doo Wop group from Kansas City, who recorded "Blueberry Sweet" for New York's Atlas Records. They DEFINITELY broke up in late 1959. So, they couldn't possibly be this 1963 group. Do any of you know if this was a leased Detroit production, or just Murray paying to use 2 Jesse Greer Detroit-penned songs, or Greer moving to New York, and writing for Murray's labels? I don't remember Greer's name on any more releases on any other of Murray's labels' issues, nor do I remember his name on any other NY releases. Edited January 5, 2021 by Robbk
puw Posted January 6, 2021 Posted January 6, 2021 6 hours ago, The Yank said: I can answer some of your original questions. These songs were unreleased during the Cavaliers time at RCA - 1) "It's Guaranteed" - recorded Feb. 23, 1967 2) "Ooh, It Hurts Me" - also recorded Feb. 23, 1967 3) "Without Someone To Tell Me" recorded - July 18, 1966 4) "We Go Together" ( A remake of the Moonglows song) recorded with and without a rap intro All info is from these Kent CDs- "Rare, Collectable and Soulful Vol. 1 and 2 and the 3 Pied Piper CD's- "A New Concept in Detroit Soul", "Follow Your Soul" and "Finale" . That's really helpful Yank - thanks. I will go and look for those albums for the liner notes if I can. I was sure, for example Ooh, It Hurts Me, that I heard it first via one of the Kent's and yet Outta Sight released it as a 45 which confused me because of those albums you've listed, but then I wondered if I heard it played somewhere before I left many blue moons ago, which got me to thinking was it ever released as just a demo ..................... and so on. When you have songs written, produced etc and that sound as good as these from a group which quickly faded away and with such a pedigree of singers, getting some good background info becomes all the more interesting, not just who was who, where & how they formed etc, but also why they were ever recorded and then their songs sat in the vaults unreleased (and so on). I read a lot of autobiog's of groups etc to help get an idea of the world of recording artists, managers, producers, songwriters, music lawyers etc, but they don't always give the reasons (other than money) for recording so much material that then was never released. My perception I know is slightly skewed from so many decades now of Northern and what that means to me, how lucky I am to have had the chance to hear such greatness. Thanks again Yank 1
The Yank Posted January 6, 2021 Posted January 6, 2021 19 hours ago, Robbk said: Do any of you know if this was a leased Detroit production, or just Murray paying to use 2 Jesse Greer Detroit-penned songs, or Greer moving to New York, and writing for Murray's labels? I don't know anything else about the group. If anyone has more info- please post.
Blackpoolsoul Posted January 15, 2021 Posted January 15, 2021 On 05/01/2021 at 22:47, Robbk said: I've always wondered whether this Chandeliers group was a Detroit group, or the known New York group. Although Juggy Murray operated out of New York, he did lease at least one 45 production from Detroit (Freddie Brown's and Joe Hunter's "Toy Soldier" by Detroit's 1st Dramatics group. The songwriter was Detroit's Jesse Greer, who had been a member of Roger Craton's (Lee Rogers') Peppermints and Barons, and he wrote a lot of songs for Detroit singers and groups. I don't remember ever coming across any reference to a Detroit group by that name. The only New York Chandeliers I know of was the 1954-59 Doo Wop group from Kansas City, who recorded "Blueberry Sweet" for New York's Atlas Records. They DEFINITELY broke up in late 1959. So, they couldn't possibly be this 1963 group. Do any of you know if this was a leased Detroit production, or just Murray paying to use 2 Jesse Greer Detroit-penned songs, or Greer moving to New York, and writing for Murray's labels? I don't remember Greer's name on any more releases on any other of Murray's labels' issues, nor do I remember his name on any other NY releases. https://doo-wop.blogg.org/cheerios-1-c26503296 This will help
Billy Jo Jim Bob Posted January 15, 2021 Posted January 15, 2021 On 24/10/2012 at 23:27, Roburt said: 1962 >> the Cavaliers (with Lloyd Nash) on Gum .... (sorry its a poor quality scan but you can just about make stuff out on it) ... Just came across this thread and happened to have the Cavalier 45 on GUM to hand. Seems like this outfit was from New Mexico as this is where the label is based ??
Blackpoolsoul Posted January 15, 2021 Posted January 15, 2021 2 hours ago, Billy Jo Jim Bob said: Just came across this thread and happened to have the Cavalier 45 on GUM to hand. Seems like this outfit was from New Mexico as this is where the label is based ?? This from a blog https://lonestarstomp.blogspot.com/2009/11/cavaliers-mesilla-park.html "In the early 1960s 'dance' songs were all the rage. Everyone needed a dance song to stay up with the times. Las Cruces's Cavaliers, led by Lloyd Nash, joined in with their greasy "The Quiver" on this fall of 1962 release on Mesilla Park's Gum label. While Gum publishing can be found on a number of discs from El Paso, Mesilla Park, and Las Cruces, the Gum label itself was short lived with only 4 known releases, and two of those coming from the Cavaliers. And while we're at it... Gum was the publisher for Frank Gonzales and the Palisades's contribution to dance craze, "Dance to the Palisades"."
Robbk Posted January 15, 2021 Posted January 15, 2021 8 hours ago, Blackpoolsoul said: https://doo-wop.blogg.org/cheerios-1-c26503296 This will help WOW!!! That Sue record, with songs written by Detroit singer/songwriter, Jesse Greer, was sung by Bobby Sanders' L.A. group???? I never imagined anything like that. But, Detroiter, Mickey Stevenson, wrote songs in L.A. for Leon Rene's Class records, so, I guess sometimes weird-looking situations are just a matter of personal connections through family, networking, or simply meeting people when traveling and making a connection. 1
Lattrice Posted June 21, 2021 Posted June 21, 2021 I am the daughter to Jerome Averette the original Cavalier from the RCA Detroit group... and your information not 100% correct. 1
Robbk Posted June 21, 2021 Posted June 21, 2021 2 hours ago, Lattrice said: I am the daughter to Jerome Averette the original Cavalier from the RCA Detroit group... and your information not 100% correct. Can you then correct our information for us? We'd all be glad to know the true history of the group. 1
Popular Post Ady Croasdell Posted June 21, 2021 Popular Post Posted June 21, 2021 On 06/01/2021 at 03:36, puw said: That's really helpful Yank - thanks. I will go and look for those albums for the liner notes if I can. I was sure, for example Ooh, It Hurts Me, that I heard it first via one of the Kent's and yet Outta Sight released it as a 45 which confused me because of those albums you've listed, but then I wondered if I heard it played somewhere before I left many blue moons ago, which got me to thinking was it ever released as just a demo ..................... and so on. When you have songs written, produced etc and that sound as good as these from a group which quickly faded away and with such a pedigree of singers, getting some good background info becomes all the more interesting, not just who was who, where & how they formed etc, but also why they were ever recorded and then their songs sat in the vaults unreleased (and so on). I read a lot of autobiog's of groups etc to help get an idea of the world of recording artists, managers, producers, songwriters, music lawyers etc, but they don't always give the reasons (other than money) for recording so much material that then was never released. My perception I know is slightly skewed from so many decades now of Northern and what that means to me, how lucky I am to have had the chance to hear such greatness. Thanks again Yank I found the Cavaliers tapes at RCA in NYC apart from We Go Together which turned up in Shelley Haims tapes. I first played Ooh It Hurts Me at the 100 Club off a newly made acetate. OOS issued it some years later as a 45 - without so much as a nod of recognition or a promo, I might add! 4
Wheelsville1 Posted June 21, 2021 Posted June 21, 2021 1 hour ago, Ady Croasdell said: I found the Cavaliers tapes at RCA in NYC apart from We Go Together which turned up in Shelley Haims tapes. I first played Ooh It Hurts Me at the 100 Club off a newly made acetate. OOS issued it some years later as a 45 - without so much as a nod of recognition or a promo, I might add! Thats a real pity Ady,unfortunatly not everybody sings off the same hymn sheet as you.We all know that you have always been fair to other people. 2 1
Ady Croasdell Posted June 21, 2021 Posted June 21, 2021 6 hours ago, Lattrice said: I am the daughter to Jerome Averette the original Cavalier from the RCA Detroit group... and your information not 100% correct. Hi Lattrice, If you email me at ady.croasdell@acerecords.com I'll send you copies of the CDs we issued the Cavaliers tracks on. On 15/01/2021 at 18:58, Robbk said: WOW!!! That Sue record, with songs written by Detroit singer/songwriter, Jesse Greer, was sung by Bobby Sanders' L.A. group???? I never imagined anything like that. But, Detroiter, Mickey Stevenson, wrote songs in L.A. for Leon Rene's Class records, so, I guess sometimes weird-looking situations are just a matter of personal connections through family, networking, or simply meeting people when traveling and making a connection. Great info on Mickey Robb. Is there a story behind that? I see one of the other writers Joe Marls had some slight involvement at Motown later. 1
puw Posted June 22, 2021 Posted June 22, 2021 On 21/06/2021 at 09:35, Lattrice said: I am the daughter to Jerome Averette the original Cavalier from the RCA Detroit group... and your information not 100% correct. Yes, please do let us know the correct information, and also any other information or photo's etc that you may have. Thank you for getting in touch with us all
Cherryboo65 Posted July 7, 2022 Posted July 7, 2022 My Uncle Ron Anderson was in The Cavaliers, as well as The Fi-Tones, in 1952. The other gentlemen were: Cecil Holmes (Fi-Tones), Leroy and Johnny. Where do they fit into this list of Cavaliers?
Blackpoolsoul Posted July 8, 2022 Posted July 8, 2022 On 07/07/2022 at 14:11, Cherryboo65 said: My Uncle Ron Anderson was in The Cavaliers, as well as The Fi-Tones, in 1952. The other gentlemen were: Cecil Holmes (Fi-Tones), Leroy and Johnny. Where do they fit into this list of Cavaliers? This might help you , Hopefully and it mentions The Cavaliers https://www.uncamarvy.com/FiTones/fitones.html
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