Djing - Clear The Floor - Question

[Jaco]

I see your point Jaco and no one likes finding an unknown physical record more than me, but your statement "once you have unlimited access to music for example in a convenient and painfree medium, it ceases to have substantive value on any level" is just wrong mate. Someone still has to find, discover and then champion a tune to spread it to the audience. So in my opinion it's more about taste rather than whether it's on a physical format or not. These days almost 50% of the tunes I love have never even been on a physical format - Melba Moore and Spencer Wiggins would never have had a shot under your rules!

Purely sticking to a physical format merely limits your choices to whether someone could afford to have a record pressed up or not. Some of the best stuff I've heard in the last 10-20 years has never even made it to a pressing plant. However, it still takes the right person with the right taste to break it. For me the format is unimportant really. A great piece of music is still a great piece of music whether it's pressed on plastic, a 2" multi-track or a WAV file. Why limit the choice?

Ian D

But I'm not denying that somebody has to find, discover and champion a track in order to make it available to an audience. It's just that the audience these days seem indifferent to that process, simply wanting to have that unfettered access as of right.

That's how my 18 year old son views music. It's simply out there and ultimately disposal. Yes because it's not necessarily in a physical format but also because availability requires little effort. How can you place instrinsic value on such product?

[Guest]

Heh I’ve just realised I’m one of those sad punters all you DJ’s are talking about getting out after a hard days graft, chin stroking & foot tapping ‘til I’m relaxed enough after a couple of bevies usually around 9 til 9.30 when you lot play the shit top 500 that have been played over & over but amazingly still gets us so called label lickers up dancing & enjoying ourselves mind you that maybe cause we don’t know owt else? None of us warming ourselves up for the evening playing a few underplayed & rare tracks at home, because I know every one of you takes every record you own out don’t you. It’s even worse for a nighter I work myself up all week & then sadly I go out early have a few bevies, sometimes I get up & dance sometimes I don’t sometimes to a whole set if the DJ’s good enough not just the five as were all too old for that. I even dare not to finish the night sometimes & I’m in bed for 4 or 5 but I don’t think that’s the DJ to blame maybe just work or family commitments but hey that obviously makes me a very sad non committed soul enthusiast.

Come on some of you listen to yourselves!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ian Dewhirst]

But I'm not denying that somebody has to find, discover and champion a track in order to make it available to an audience. It's just that the audience these days seem indifferent to that process, simply wanting to have that unfettered access as of right.

That's how my 18 year old son views music. It's simply out there and ultimately disposal. Yes because it's not necessarily in a physical format but also because availability requires little effort. How can you place instrinsic value on such product?

I know exactly what you mean 'cos I have an 18 year old daughter who views music the same way as your son LOL. The terms of reference for kids have changed without a doubt. However, she came in my room this morning raving about a band she'd seen the previous night and then flipped me to You Tube to play me the stuff. Easy access hasn't necessarily diminished her appreciation of music, it's merely sped it up......

Mind you, they'll never know the pain of waiting 20 years for a record will they......?

Ian D

[paultp]

Before there was a means of recording music it was only played live and so every time you heard the same thing it was different, it was of the moment. There was no means of taking the music away with you to play again and again. Perhaps that's the way it was meant to be and recording music made it somehow a duller experience?

Too much wine I think, time for bed

[Samplat]

Jimmy

do you realize what a mine field you have opened up. I only came and said to you that i thought you did a good set. We must have to think again what to play :D :D

[Russ Vickers]

Heh I’ve just realised I’m one of those sad punters all you DJ’s are talking about getting out after a hard days graft, chin stroking & foot tapping ‘til I’m relaxed enough after a couple of bevies usually around 9 til 9.30 when you lot play the shit top 500 that have been played over & over but amazingly still gets us so called label lickers up dancing & enjoying ourselves mind you that maybe cause we don’t know owt else? None of us warming ourselves up for the evening playing a few underplayed & rare tracks at home, because I know every one of you takes every record you own out don’t you. It’s even worse for a nighter I work myself up all week & then sadly I go out early have a few bevies, sometimes I get up & dance sometimes I don’t sometimes to a whole set if the DJ’s good enough not just the five as were all too old for that. I even dare not to finish the night sometimes & I’m in bed for 4 or 5 but I don’t think that’s the DJ to blame maybe just work or family commitments but hey that obviously makes me a very sad non committed soul enthusiast.

Come on some of you listen to yourselves!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Using your criteria, we'll never here another uknown record again...c'mon listen to your self. BTW the top 500 arnt sh*t particularly, I enjoy most as much as the next man, but I dont want to hear em every Saturday night for the rest of my life, I want to hear a varied set of music, played from original format that encompasses everything, including some unknowns/current floorpackers & yes, some classic oldies too.

There seems to be a mis representation of people who enjoy listening to varied sets, but of course that is deleberate, cos you couldnt agree now could you.

Every single 'legendary' DJ worth thier salt has played sets that push new sounds including the current top Dj's Butch, Ady Croasdell, Andy Dyson, Mick H, Soul Sam, Keith Money, Cliff Steel, Dave Abbott, Des Parker, Joel Maslin, Carl Fortnum & many more.....are they all wrong....no, the debate here on the whole is about local yokel soul nights, in my opinion theyre great for the locals, play what you want on what ever format, so long as its clear, but dont force your opinions on the rest of the scene as being the norm, cos it aint, you may be able to shout the loudest cos at present your in the majority, but what comes around etc.....the returness, tourists & wannabees will disappear again when it suits them, the proper scene now is made up from a very small number of people who still KTF, the scene was alive & well in the 8ts when many took thier break, something a lot try to deny or ignore & it will continue to thrive when the hangers on have all buggered off again, taking thier opinions with them.

Enjoy your moment in the sun, the scene will be around long after we have gone...

Best Russ

[Russ Vickers]

Here I am agreeing with Len again.Was going to 'Do's' and requesting records. Asked for Frankie Valli 'youre ready now' and it started a a manhunt by the DJ's to see if anybody had it anywhere, one was flown in and it packed the floor.Went to other venue's and asked for others, 'Reaching' the Marvellettes, then 'two can have a party' marvin & Tammi and I get told, I'm not playing 'sh*t like that mate. and my sister in law loves 'wade in the water' and she gets told the same. So I thought sod it I'm going to have a go-even though venue's are folding all around. I got 3 smashing blokes with me who remember how it was before some Dj's forgot their roots. We start on the 1st of December and I hope to god some people come, otherwise thats my kids inheritance gone.

Mellytee please don't put yourself down as a 'handbagger' I could be called a BiHandbagger as I like Northern and Motown.If we enjoy ourselves and it doesn't hurt anybody else, then we shouldn't be persecuted for it.

Trust me, you'll be f*ckin rolling in it....anyone can do it & does...I would suggest Russ Winstanleys Soul Suvivor CD's, illegally download them, put them on loop from ya laptop, find some old social club or hall....kerchiiiiiinnnnggg !!!....if your in the right area, it'll be like taking candy from a baby lol.

Your justifying it by suggesting these records dont get played every week some where up n down the country, sorry nice try but not true, invest ya money in supporting a venue that does play these things already.

Best Russ

[paultp]

Here I am agreeing with Len again.Was going to 'Do's' and requesting records. Asked for Frankie Valli 'youre ready now' and it started a a manhunt by the DJ's to see if anybody had it anywhere, one was flown in and it packed the floor.Went to other venue's and asked for others, 'Reaching' the Marvellettes, then 'two can have a party' marvin & Tammi and I get told, I'm not playing 'sh*t like that mate. and my sister in law loves 'wade in the water' and she gets told the same. So I thought sod it I'm going to have a go-even though venue's are folding all around. I got 3 smashing blokes with me who remember how it was before some Dj's forgot their roots. We start on the 1st of December and I hope to god some people come, otherwise thats my kids inheritance gone.

Mellytee please don't put yourself down as a 'handbagger' I could be called a BiHandbagger as I like Northern and Motown.If we enjoy ourselves and it doesn't hurt anybody else, then we shouldn't be persecuted for it.

I think this sums up the differences here, i.e. what people think a DJ is.

To some people a DJ is somebody paid to stand behind the decks (or whatever) and play whatever keeps the floor full regardless of their own personal taste. To be honest anybody can do that if they have enough money to buy a box of tunes that are well known to fill a floor (or use mp3s or bootlegs of the same tunes). In fact I'd go so far as say it is a piece of p*ss. What this audience is expecting is some sort of Northern Soul jukebox where said DJ has every record they ask for and will play it. I don't know a single DJ who hasn't at some time been asked for a record and then abused because they don't have it with them/don't own it/wouldn't play it anyway. It is this audience where a laptop full of mp3s would be ideal. I've done the odd set to this sort of audience and at the end felt like some sort of prostitute (and been verbally abused) - never again.

To other people (me included) a DJ is somebody who is going to play tunes they have personally chosen and believe will get people dancing. It might not always work but it is their personality and choice of tunes that make the set and the DJ and what makes people turn up to hear them play a set - they wouldn't really know exactly what they were going to get until they listened and that is the attraction.

If you are going to events where "two can have a party' marvin & Tammi" isn't and wouldn't get played - its not the DJ at fault its you - you're at the wrong do.

[Guest Krissii]

"anyone can do it" , thats what you dont like isnt it Russ ? Say there is a young lad skint on a council estate somewhere and works in a factory . For years he has spent all his spare time trawling the internet and anywhere for tunes. Good classics and good rare/underplayed . He has read every back issue of Black Echoes and Blues and Soul he can find . All the books . All the current set lists online. All the farcebook pages. Tries to get to events , rare & classic but the bus stops running at 8 . . . .He is really dedicated but dosnt have the money to buy even the cheapest ovo (he lives in a shoebox in the road ) He is only young so dosnt have "the history" you have (but is trying to build a time machine in the shed out of twigs, string and old pushbikes) . Do you think he is less capable of putting a decent set together (rare/uderplayed/classic) than a young lad the same age who can afford to go out and buy any ovo he wants (the son of a multi millionaire , obviously) . He loves the music , is dedicated and might make a great dj . I would say he might borrow some ovo but woudnt that conflict with your rules ? What chance would he have under the current ovo regime ?. And how can he resolve his dilemma

[Jaco]

"anyone can do it" , thats what you dont like isnt it Russ ? Say there is a young lad skint on a council estate somewhere and works in a factory . For years he has spent all his spare time trawling the internet and anywhere for tunes. Good classics and good rare/underplayed . He has read every back issue of Black Echoes and Blues and Soul he can find . All the books . All the current set lists online. All the farcebook pages. Tries to get to events , rare & classic but the bus stops running at 8 . . . .He is really dedicated but dosnt have the money to buy even the cheapest ovo (he lives in a shoebox in the road ) He is only young so dosnt have "the history" you have (but is trying to build a time machine in the shed out of twigs, string and old pushbikes) . Do you think he is less capable of putting a decent set together (rare/uderplayed/classic) than a young lad the same age who can afford to go out and buy any ovo he wants (the son of a multi millionaire , obviously) . He loves the music , is dedicated and might make a great dj . I would say he might borrow some ovo but woudnt that conflict with your rules ? What chance would he have under the current ovo regime ?. And how can he resolve his dilemma

But once anyone can do it, where's the distinction between good, bad and indifferent?

Overkill of the same product, whenever, wherever will accelerate the end of the scene. Is that what people want?

[Barry]

He is really dedicated but dosnt have the money to buy even the cheapest ovo (he lives in a shoebox in the road ) He is only young so dosnt have "the history" you have (but is trying to build a time machine in the shed out of twigs, string and old pushbikes)

[Guest]

reply to paultp I suspect youre absolutely right.Though youre posting was intended as an attack on me, unlike you I try to appreciate what other people want and play, and only hope that at least a small proportion of the night will have records that I like from the era it porports to be playing actually being played. Rather than get upetty and look down on people who would like to hear something that takes them back to happy day's, I hope I could explain to them that what I have got is my own personal collection that I payed for it with my own money for my own enjoyment and I brought them along in the hope that other people would enjoy them too. If you think you have the right answer to what people should hear when they go out why don't you set up your own venue and see if other people agree with you.

Sorry youre turning me into Mr Angry from the Steve Wright show. Hoped I was above the 'I am right you are wrong mentallity'. Peace and love man.We are only here once.

Edited October 20, 2012 by mikeyof

[Guest Krissii]

. . . what worries me about the ovo scene is that it will become a hobby just for the middle class , the "prawn sandwich" brigade if you like . That northern soul might lose some of its deep working class roots .

[Guest Krissii]

my point was that the young lad is dedicated , sincere , knows his stuff but he is poor , the rich lad can become a dj with the click of his fingers but does that make him a better budding dj ? ?

[Guest]

. . . what worries me about the ovo scene is that it will become a hobby just for the middle class , the "prawn sandwich" brigade if you like . That northern soul might lose some of its deep working class roots .

Sfunny you should say that.I spoke to a celibrated DJ one night who said to me my OVO records are worth £100.000. When I reflected on this I thought does this mean if you haven't got a collection worth that kind of price range you shouldn't be standing behind some decks in public?

[Jaco]

Sfunny you should say that.I spoke to a celibrated DJ one night who said to me my OVO records are worth £100.000. When I reflected on this I thought does this mean if you haven't got a collection worth that kind of price range you shouldn't be standing behind some decks in public?

No, no, no. It is not always about money.

Of course some 'celebrated' jock will have a collection worth a lot of dosh but a good DJ will be able to get the best out of a night with tracks that don't have to cost the earth.

Why this needs to keep being repeated is beyond me. It's all about imagination.

[hullsoul]

. . . what worries me about the ovo scene is that it will become a hobby just for the middle class , the "prawn sandwich" brigade if you like . That northern soul might lose some of its deep working class roots .

Krissi

I'll be at one the young lads night's tonight in Leeds (Driving Beat) & they are normal working class lads like myself but are very passionate about new sounds on original vinyl.I find you analogy ill informed to the experiences I have come across.You seem to keep to want to bring it back to expensive records but the part of the scene you are you talking about is only a part of it & there's far more cheap accessible tunes played on it.You can pay £10 for a boot/re-issue you can as easily buy an original record for that or cheaper.

I think PTP reply was the best yet,I think dj's should have imagination & bring some personality to the decks.All dj's shouldn't be the same imo.

Cheers

Martyn

[Jaco]

. . . what worries me about the ovo scene is that it will become a hobby just for the middle class , the "prawn sandwich" brigade if you like . That northern soul might lose some of its deep working class roots .

Why just middle class? Go back and do a search on any number of threads about cheap as chips tracks that could/ought to be played out and see that the scene does not have to be the exclusive playground of the minted DJ.

[Kev Cane]

my point was that the young lad is dedicated , sincere , knows his stuff but he is poor , the rich lad can become a dj with the click of his fingers but does that make him a better budding dj ? ?

No Krissi, there are plenty of venues all over the country who demand OVO but invite collectors to spin THEIR OWN tunes, I touched on the scenario earlier where Bertie Big Cheque Book appears from nowhere waving his money at anything deemed big ticket, gets himself (or herself) a clutch of so called biggies and thinks they,ve arrived, the phone doesn,t ring, so they end up selling up, Krissi, the decent people on the scene see through all this, and in most cases quality rather than rarity gains the respect, I know where you are coming from though, you,re scenario exists among the fickle, but IMHO and experience, genuine people see through and don,t tolerate the bluff

Kev

[Steve L]

You either get it or you don't

[Jordirip]

"anyone can do it" , thats what you dont like isnt it Russ ? Say there is a young lad skint on a council estate somewhere and works in a factory . For years he has spent all his spare time trawling the internet and anywhere for tunes. Good classics and good rare/underplayed . He has read every back issue of Black Echoes and Blues and Soul he can find . All the books . All the current set lists online. All the farcebook pages. Tries to get to events , rare & classic but the bus stops running at 8 . . . .He is really dedicated but dosnt have the money to buy even the cheapest ovo (he lives in a shoebox in the road ) He is only young so dosnt have "the history" you have (but is trying to build a time machine in the shed out of twigs, string and old pushbikes) . Do you think he is less capable of putting a decent set together (rare/uderplayed/classic) than a young lad the same age who can afford to go out and buy any ovo he wants (the son of a multi millionaire , obviously) . He loves the music , is dedicated and might make a great dj . I would say he might borrow some ovo but woudnt that conflict with your rules ? What chance would he have under the current ovo regime ?. And how can he resolve his dilemma

Why would he need to DJ? may be he should use what small amount of income he has and get together with some mates and travel to a soul do and just enjoy someone else DJing. Why does everyone feel they have to be a DJ? I think anyone deciding to embark on being a DJ now from scratch must be mental. Too many DJ's already, records are so expensive, fickle crowds who are never happy, Nah, your hypothetical stereotyped working class soul fan from a shoebox should find the kind of music he likes, research which DJ's and venues cater for that and then go and enjoy someone else playing the tunes to the punters.

Jordi

Jordi

[Guest Krissii]

Yes "Driving Beat" is a great night too . The young uns bring so much to the scene . . Anyroad , i guess iv been online a bit too much last few days (and maybe said too much in this thread already ) . l am off train spotting in Birmingham central train station . Its peaceful there . Have a nice weekend everyone .

[Jordirip]

. . . what worries me about the ovo scene is that it will become a hobby just for the middle class , the "prawn sandwich" brigade if you like . That northern soul might lose some of its deep working class roots .

What has class got to do with anything? You can't buy good taste.

Edited October 20, 2012 by jordirip

[spot]

my point was that the young lad is dedicated , sincere , knows his stuff but he is poor , the rich lad can become a dj with the click of his fingers but does that make him a better budding dj ? ?

Just my opinion but YES, as he'd most likely have every want to hear & dance to Oldie,Rarity & Modern in the book & on OV, who says money cant buy you love or a great record collection, I know if I was a lottery winner I'd be the greatest NS Dj in the world, records make the Dj not his passion,if not why do people travel vast distances to hear Butch, as for the "Deep Working class roots" that may look good for TV Documentaries & Cash in Films but the scenes always had a mixture of the classes & for most it's not just a hobby, it's a hobby for those who have recently appeared since it's become trendy & the new black, just look at Kings Hall (Which I love & have attended since day blob) 2 years ago decent crowd (Numbers wise) today after Soul Boy Film, Lily Savage & other exposees the place is rammed to the gunnels & not all your nice friendly Soulies we harp on about but people reliving their youth via nostalgia, each to their own though & in a couple of years time when they tire of it we'll be back to the numbers of the 90/00's.

Take care, be safe & remember,"Ooh, it's alright an it's coming on, we gotta get right back to where we started from",

Spot.

p.s. Remember the arrogance & certainty of youth? Yes I know it was a long long time ago but I'm sure we were the same, no offence intended just in case you thought I was having a go, no I was just reminiscing, aah.

Edited October 20, 2012 by spot

[paultp]

reply to paultp I suspect youre absolutely right.Though youre posting was intended as an attack on me, unlike you I try to appreciate what other people want and play, and only hope that at least a small proportion of the night will have records that I like from the era it porports to be playing actually being played. Rather than get upetty and look down on people who would like to hear something that takes them back to happy day's, I hope I could explain to them that what I have got is my own personal collection that I payed for it with my own money for my own enjoyment and I brought them along in the hope that other people would enjoy them too. If you think you have the right answer to what people should hear when they go out why don't you set up your own venue and see if other people agree with you.

Sorry youre turning me into Mr Angry from the Steve Wright show. Hoped I was above the 'I am right you are wrong mentallity'. Peace and love man.We are only here once.

I'm afraid you've got me all wrong, I was trying to point out that different people want different things so different people try to put on different nights to cater for all these different needs. My feeling is that none of them are wrong but sometimes people put on something that the people who turn up don't want and vice versa.

But I'll answer your comments one by one.

You said: youre posting was intended as an attack on me

it wasn't intended as "an attack" on you it was an answer to your idea that DJ's have lost their roots somehow by not playing your requests. There isn't any need to get angry as this is just a discussion.

You said: unlike you I try to appreciate what other people want

You don't know me, you have never met me so please don't make comments on what I'm like.

You said: Rather than get upetty and look down on people who would like to hear something that takes them back to happy day's, I hope I could explain to them that what I have got is my own personal collection that I payed for it with my own money for my own enjoyment and I brought them along in the hope that other people would enjoy them too.

Best of luck to you. That isn't what you said in your post though, you were complaining that you were asking for club soul and motown records and the DJ wouldn't play them. If you "offer" is that you'll play anything people ask for and you advertise it as a Northern Soul night it will be interesting to see how you feel when someone comes up and asks for Flash Mckinley (insert any record you don't own or haven't got with you) and you tell them you haven't got it. Stand by for "Call yourself a DJ?" "What the f*** are you doing behind the decks?" etc etc

If your "offer" is that you are going to play from your own collection in the hope that people like what you like, you might want think waht you're going to do if you find they don't. Comments such as "How long are you going to go on playing this ************ sh*te for?" are normally heard at this point. For the asterisks please insert any of "modern/northern/70's/60's/f**king/motown.

You said: If you think you have the right answer to what people should hear when they go out why don't you set up your own venue and see if other people agree with you.

Without wishing to seem arrogant, I already have and they did. I didn't have "the right answer" because there isn't one. The night I was involved with had a specific offer tailored to a specific audience and it worked. We still got people in every week who moaned about it or thought it was something else but happily they were outnumbered about 50 to 1. I still remember being asked " Can you play something by the doors?" ......

....... my answer was "no mate, we'd have to move the decks"

Edited October 20, 2012 by paultp

[Chalky]

. . . what worries me about the ovo scene is that it will become a hobby just for the middle class , the "prawn sandwich" brigade if you like . That northern soul might lose some of its deep working class roots .

why do people like you think that every record has to cost a fortune?

There's more records that are cheap than expensive and besides many boots etc are getting just as expensive.

You can put a decent set of original vinyl together for next to nothing. There's 1000's of records in the 10, 15, 20 quid bracket that are more than good enough. It is a question of doing your homework, seeking out these records, listening to sound files, looking through box after box of records, taking some to listen to on the portable players. It's not a case of simply sitting back and expecting it all to be handed on a plate.

Like anything in life you have to work at it.

[hullsoul]

I still remember being asked " Can you play something by the doors?" ......

....... my answer was "no mate, we'd have to move the decks"

:D ........got asked for The Stone Roses?When I said it's a soul night mate,he told me that is soul...........my mam said

Cheers

Martyn

[tosspot]

why does people like you think that every record has to cost a fortune? There's more records that are cheap than expensive and besides many boots etc are getting just as expensive. You can put a decent set of original vinyl together for next to nothing. Thee's 1000's of records in the 10, 15, 20 quid bracket that are more than good enough. It is a question of doing your homework, seeking out these records, listening to sound files, looking through box after box of records, taking some to listen to on the portable players. It's not a case of simply sitting back and expecting it all to be handed on a plate.

Like anything in life you have to work at it.

Coming back from Ibstock last night one record came up in conversation "The Spinners", Lynn says she only paid £3 for the one she bought me, so is that why i don't play it, to which i replied..."it don't have to be expensive to be good", examples :- Wade Flemons, watch over her £20 class, Jeanette £350, bloody awful, & theres loads of other examples like jackie wison, Just be sincere £10, great double sider, because of you £75/£100, sick of hearing it etc

[paultp]

why does people like you think that every record has to cost a fortune? There's more records that are cheap than expensive and besides many boots etc are getting just as expensive. You can put a decent set of original vinyl together for next to nothing. Thee's 1000's of records in the 10, 15, 20 quid bracket that are more than good enough. It is a question of doing your homework, seeking out these records, listening to sound files, looking through box after box of records, taking some to listen to on the portable players. It's not a case of simply sitting back and expecting it all to be handed on a plate.

Like anything in life you have to work at it.

Quite agree.

There's also a lot of records that start off relatively cheap and then go up in price as everybody decides they must have one. Buying what you like rather than what you think you should have does help build a collection of records that might be very valuable but didn't cost you an arm and a leg.

My Cam Cameron - They Say cost me about $26 because it wasn't in demand when I found it on eBay after hearing it from John Weston's box when he was round my house. There's plenty of examples like that.

It isn't a class thing either, some people save up for ages or go without other things for records. I can't afford to buy £1000 records so I pick up what I like and enjoy. I have a budget and I try and supplement it by buying and selling records. The idea that nobody can be a DJ without having loads of money is just farcical, as is the idea that somebody with loads of money can automatically be a good DJ.

I sometimes think that if I could afford every record I wanted or just paid silly money for anything I fancied it would take the fun out of it.

[Russ Vickers]

Its friggin insane, some of the comments in this thread are down right mental & just shows how little appreciation is given to the guys n gals that constantly dig for tunes old & new, many on a shoestring....people have more money now than back in the golden days of the scene & it was probably more difficult to find records, no access to internet US etc....its the diggin & the hours/days/years you spend finding the tunes.....you had to be passionate, dedicated & canny. I find it unbeleivable that someone can say its all about money....thats total bollox & shows the total ignorance of some of the people involved in this debate....there are folk who were potless, saved every penny for a trip to the US, got the Greyhound every where for gods sake to save money, blah, blah, blah....if you aint got the tenacity needed to get the tunes, then dont DJ....thats the point not everyone has to be a DJ, if you dont have the tackle, tough, dont bother....

Best Russ

[Dave Moore]

. . . what worries me about the ovo scene is that it will become a hobby just for the middle class , the "prawn sandwich" brigade if you like . That northern soul might lose some of its deep working class roots .

That posting Krissi, leads me to believe that you don't know the first thing about collecting records. It's not about the PRICE of things it's about the VALUE they contain.

Good record collections are literally FULL of cheap but wonderful records. I find that the bootleg DJ's 'collections' are full of imitation expensive records.

There's a world of difference between the 'drive' of a collector and the 'desperation' to DJ.

Just my opinion.

[Guest]

I apologize to paultp if i misconstrued what you were saying. But I have experienced DJ's in the scene that didn't give me the time of day when I asked if they would join me.Rightly or Wrongly I suspect that they didn't want to be associated with what some people on here refer to as a 'wannabe DJ' who maybe might pull their regulars away so threatening their earners. As far as I am concerned I am just the background tracks as hopefully people turn up and greet each other/catchup etc, then handover to the experts. I just think the venue I've got should provide at least the locals with a good night out at low cost.If it doesn't work I hope somebody else takes the venue on and makes it work, again for at least the locals.

If I do get the comments you have experienced perhaps I had better talk to a friend of mine that has experienced similar comments and get some good answers in my pockets. Love the by the doors reply.Came across some 'meatloaf' yesterday (not my thing) but it was 'Stoney and Meatloaf' on a Motown Label and I was really surprised. The doors weren't on Motown were they?

I,m going to join KrissiB and stay out of this post now because its going down the same well trodden path.

[Guest]

Using your criteria, we'll never here another uknown record again...c'mon listen to your self. BTW the top 500 arnt sh*t particularly, I enjoy most as much as the next man, but I dont want to hear em every Saturday night for the rest of my life, I want to hear a varied set of music, played from original format that encompasses everything, including some unknowns/current floorpackers & yes, some classic oldies too.

There seems to be a mis representation of people who enjoy listening to varied sets, but of course that is deleberate, cos you couldnt agree now could you.

Every single 'legendary' DJ worth thier salt has played sets that push new sounds including the current top Dj's Butch, Ady Croasdell, Andy Dyson, Mick H, Soul Sam, Keith Money, Cliff Steel, Dave Abbott, Des Parker, Joel Maslin, Carl Fortnum & many more.....are they all wrong....no, the debate here on the whole is about local yokel soul nights, in my opinion theyre great for the locals, play what you want on what ever format, so long as its clear, but dont force your opinions on the rest of the scene as being the norm, cos it aint, you may be able to shout the loudest cos at present your in the majority, but what comes around etc.....the returness, tourists & wannabees will disappear again when it suits them, the proper scene now is made up from a very small number of people who still KTF, the scene was alive & well in the 8ts when many took thier break, something a lot try to deny or ignore & it will continue to thrive when the hangers on have all buggered off again, taking thier opinions with them.

Enjoy your moment in the sun, the scene will be around long after we have gone...

Best Russ

Russ you seem to have misinterpreted what I've said the top 500 i mentioned was tongue in cheek as I clearly state that myself & plenty of others get up & dance & enjoy them. I also mention that I have a very varied selection of records that I listen to at home, as I realise that every DJ is not going to bring out his or hers entire collection so I'm quite happy to warm myself up before venturing out. Never knocked any DJ just clearly state that I do not get up to dance to every single track but if the set is well put together it will keep me on the dancefloor for the entire set. Some on here seem to think that that is impossible as were all to old. I've reached my half century but due to good health even though being a drinker & smoker I still like to dance. Russ I have been on the scene for along time & I won't bore you with all the events & venues I have attended & I've always be true to the Faith, over the last ten years travelled alot more as I have had more money in pocket. Russ have you read some of the self satisfying comments made in this thread that even you yourself have now joined. Soul music is not for a select few it is there for anybody to enjoy young or old whether you were in the scene from the start, had a break or just found it. I have said on here before I have danced to entire sets when no one else has been on the floor & thoroughly enjoyed myself. I dance to Modern, oldies, crossover, Bugaloo even some of the funkier sounds just about anything that I like really. So as you can see it's not a case of forcing my opinions on anyone it just annoys me a tad when other are so self righteous & yes I do like the odd gospel track.

KTF Russ (I know you will)

Martin

[paultp]

I remember Djing once when I turned round from the decks to find someone (female - though that may be irrelevant ) rifling through my play box.

When I objected (strongly) she said to me "Why are you making such a fuss? They are only records"

[Russ Vickers]

Jennette £10 tune for years n years

Dottie & Millie £15 in nearly every box ya looked at

Oliver Christian - Unsatisfied Man x 3 copies $5 the three, kept one, traded one, sold one for £350 +

1984 Love Machine - 15 count box was about $50 - covered up & sold extra copies for £150 a pop

My Johnny Praye which I have since Butch had it covered, was a trade for three records I found in the US cheap.

Im not blowing my own trumpet, cos in the words of Chris n Shifty - Im the worst record finder in NATO, I'm giving examples of how you can find good records & how you can generate income for records, buy cheap, sell for more, invest in you collection, but it doesnt just happen, you have to work hard, the best diggers have the best collections IMHO. This stuff is schoolboy stuff, the bread n butter of every collector in the world....DJ's who do not DJ from original format are lazy or dont give a f*ck, but they'll tell you any old story to justify it & you lap it up & defend em....tragic.

Best Russ

[paultp]

But I have experienced DJ's in the scene that didn't give me the time of day when I asked if they would join me.Rightly or Wrongly I suspect that they didn't want to be associated with what some people on here refer to as a 'wannabe DJ' who maybe might pull their regulars away so threatening their earners.

Aaaahh! it all becomes clear (possibly). If you are setting up a night in competition to other local nights, it isn't a surprise that the people involved won't give you the time of day. If you are adding to a long list of other local nights, firstly there probably isn't any demand, secondly I hope you have deep pockets.

[Russ Vickers]

Russ you seem to have misinterpreted what I've said the top 500 i mentioned was tongue in cheek as I clearly state that myself & plenty of others get up & dance & enjoy them. I also mention that I have a very varied selection of records that I listen to at home, as I realise that every DJ is not going to bring out his or hers entire collection so I'm quite happy to warm myself up before venturing out. Never knocked any DJ just clearly state that I do not get up to dance to every single track but if the set is well put together it will keep me on the dancefloor for the entire set. Some on here seem to think that that is impossible as were all to old. I've reached my half century but due to good health even though being a drinker & smoker I still like to dance. Russ I have been on the scene for along time & I won't bore you with all the events & venues I have attended & I've always be true to the Faith, over the last ten years travelled alot more as I have had more money in pocket. Russ have you read some of the self satisfying comments made in this thread that even you yourself have now joined. Soul music is not for a select few it is there for anybody to enjoy young or old whether you were in the scene from the start, had a break or just found it. I have said on here before I have danced to entire sets when no one else has been on the floor & thoroughly enjoyed myself. I dance to Modern, oldies, crossover, Bugaloo even some of the funkier sounds just about anything that I like really. So as you can see it's not a case of forcing my opinions on anyone it just annoys me a tad when other are so self righteous & yes I do like the odd gospel track.

KTF Russ (I know you will)

Martin

Im really sorry if I misunderstood your original post Martin, but agree with everything you say in the above post, thank you for taking the trouble to explain mate.

Best Russ

[paultp]

Jennette £10 tune for years n years

Dottie & Millie £15 in nearly every box ya looked at

Oliver Christian - Unsatisfied Man x 3 copies $5 the three, kept one, traded one, sold one for £350 +

1984 Love Machine - 15 count box was about $50 - covered up & sold extra copies for £150 a pop

My Johnny Praye which I have since Butch had it covered, was a trade for three records I found in the US cheap.

Im not blowing my own trumpet, cos in the words of Chris n Shifty - Im the worst record finder in NATO, I'm giving examples of how you can find good records & how you can generate income for records, buy cheap, sell for more, invest in you collection, but it doesnt just happen, you have to work hard, the best diggers have the best collections IMHO. This stuff is schoolboy stuff, the bread n butter of every collector in the world....DJ's who do not DJ from original format are lazy or dont give a f*ck, but they'll tell you any old story to justify it & youap it up & defend em....tragic.

Best Russ

I wish my Jeanette had cost me a tenner. Bloody love it though and I'm amazed that loads of people say it is crap. I remember Dottie and Millie at 30 on loads of lists and I kept promising myself I'd get one and then one day it went to a ton and the week later doubled. Still hacked off about that as it isn't worth a ton despite being a great double sider.

But you're right about it being hard work getting records. My Yvonne Baker cost me $50 in San Francisco but I looked for records for a week and had less than a fifty box full at the end and the hotel lost my Boss suit so I paid for it in one way. So I'm probably crapper than you at finding records I did find 6 copies of Ace Spectrum at between $1 and $4 and sold them for £25 - £30 when I got back, plus a few others. I probably only kept about 3 of the records I found selling the rest to fund buying records. (My missus was at a convention so I went with her and so the trip didn't cost me much)

I found that when I was closer to the scene when I lived in London in the late 90's, I got more records cheaper because I heard them earlier. I remember hearing Shifty play The Game is Over (to a not very full floor) and the next day found an issue on a US record shop web site for $6, Iasked if they had anymore and they said "just a demo" which I got for the same price. I sold the issue for £50 a few months later and kept the demo.

I don't get so many cheap records now because I don't go out and so I only hear stuff when it has been played for a while and gone up in price.

Note to self: start going out again!

Edited October 20, 2012 by paultp

[Sean Hampsey]

Think I understand your frustration Russ, but I guess we all really need to accept that there are TWO very separate ‘Northern’ scenes nowadays (probably more). At least these are my observations.

There are a myriad of offshoots, born out of ‘Northern Soul’ (Crossover, Modern etc.) but we might classify the two main factions as the ‘Progressive Northern’ scene and the ‘Nostalgia Northern' scene.

They are related but they are not the same. They’re probably cousins and certainly not twins. They have the same genes… but not the same jeans… lol.

They are different.

1. ‘Progressive Northern’

The ‘Progressive Northern’ scene is frequented by folks who want to hear, play and discover tracks that are ‘new to them’.

The crowd at these events want to ‘hear something different’ on a regular basis, to keep them stimulated and to ‘keep them coming back for more’ — ‘Just like it was in the old days’… seeking out the next big tune, being true to the ‘ethos’ and ‘Keeping The Faith’.

The DJ’s on this ‘Progressive Northern’ scene tend to play new and more recent discoveries. They are as conscious of the 40+ year history as anyone else- they need to be, to ensure that what they are ‘breaking’ is truly ‘new’ or exclusive - but it is these DJ’s - and those who eagerly attend wherever they play - that keeps that particular scene going. They work hard at it, are dedicated, some might say fanatical about their chosen path. They constantly seek those elusive sounds (some of which actually become popular) and are generally the most passionate people you could ever wish to meet when it comes to talking about the music.

And good luck to ‘em. If you or they have got the energy, mental capacity, knowledge, drive, enthusiasm, resources, lifestyle, contacts and (I hate to say it) finances it’s a noble and enjoyable pursuit.

In this scene, and there are numerous exceptions, many discovered the music in the latter days of Wigan or sometime after it closed its doors. They found ‘Northern Soul’ at such places as Stafford, 100 Club, Rotherham, Bradford, Warrington, Keele and in later years Lifeline, Burnley etc. all venues with a culture of ‘progression’ coupled with something of a ‘siege mentality’ as defenders of a dying faith (remember when the black gloves came out again?).

2. ‘Nostalgia Northern’

The ‘Nostalgia Northern’ scene is a different animal. This particular scene is frequented by people who want to hear and play tracks that are familiar to them, to keep them stimulated and to ‘keep them coming back for more’ — ‘Just like it was in the old days’… reminiscing about their youth, being true to the old tunes and ‘Keeping The Faith’.

They probably left the scene sometime before Wigan closed its doors, missed the 80’s and 90’s, spent the decades, between then and now, growing up, getting married, having kids, living and working to pay the mortgage, getting divorced, being made redundant, retraining for a new career, paying off the Mortgage, remarrying and then rediscovering their youth… at the working men’s club… at the bottom of the road, where on the weekend, they play a bit of ‘Northern Soul’.

They don’t want, or need, to travel around the country each and every weekend in pursuit of the ‘next big thing’ or new discovery. Why should they? Those days are long gone for these folk. Northern Soul (as they always knew it) is right on the doorstep. In many Northern Clubs, the dominoes, bingo and ‘turn’ have been replaced by some chap with a box of records. And these old ‘sounds’ remind our typical male of his youth. He has a few Beers with his mates, he might even shake a leg to ‘Landslide’ or ‘Freddie Chavez’ — the wife likes it too — nowt wrong with a bit o’ Motown — and as he leaves he picks up a flyer for an upcoming Weekender. Fancy that our lass? Sunshine, Fish & Chips & Northern Soul? And the rest is ‘a life based on’ history or ‘instant nostalgia’ as Dave Withers once said!

Nothing new there. Old folk have been looking in the rear-view mirror for thousands of years. But, unlike previous generations, these 50 or 60 something’s won’t have to rely on the British Legion, or grow old alone. Thank God. They can grow old disgracefully if they choose to, at the seaside, two or three times a year, or at any number of events across the north that might take their fancy; enjoying a beer or two, catching up with old faces and making new friends, to incredible music that takes them back a bit, keeps the pulse racing, raises a smile and keeps the heartbeat turned up!

And good luck to ‘em. If they have ‘still’ got the energy, enthusiasm, resources, lifestyle and finances it’s a noble and enjoyable pursuit.

And it sure beats crown green bowling!

As it happens, the ‘Nostalgia Northern’ scene has taken to playing and enjoying more ‘post Wigan’ sounds in recent years. The NS Top 500 has recently been revised to reflect this. Not too very long ago ‘I’m So Happy’ and ‘Home Is Where The Heart Is’ were considered ‘Modern’ by many, whereas now some of these are considered passé, by those more ‘adventurous’ down at the club!

Probably a separate thread entirely, but there's a lot more to this than can be explained in a simple post, on a thread, in a forum about whether a DJ should or shouldn’t risk clearing a dancefloor, by playing something out of the ordinary, but I do tend to think there’s also an element of demographic and regional differences (North and South) involved here.

Up North there are literally tens of thousands of folk who went to Wigan, Samanthas and Cleggy... etc. Let’s face it; Northern Soul hasn’t been an ‘underground’ scene up here for nearly 40 years. That genie flew out of the lamp a very long time ago. Northern Soul was actually ‘a way of life’ for most young people, in the towns and villages of the north. They might not have all been hard-core nighter goers (although many of them certainly were) but your Postman, the village Bobby, the Butcher, the Landlord at the local all bought a copy of Tami Lynn ‘Run Away’ and the Tams ‘Hey Girl Don’t Bother Me’ in the early 70’s followed by a Judy Street, a copy of ‘Out On The Floor’ and a Mike Post Coalition during the Casino years! — I imagine it’s not quite like that south of Watford, where there have always been many alternative entertainment opportunities vying for attention and where ‘Northern Soul’ was and is still seen as an ‘exclusive’ club that has to be ‘travelled’ for.

I know it’s probably a separate subject all on its own, but the reality is that the heritage (Nostalgia) side of things and the ‘legacy’ of the Northern Scene, at its absolute zenith in the 70’s, in the North of England, is still seen as one of the things that many Northerners feel quite proud of. And (even though many got busy doing other things, some 30 odd years ago) just like a prodigal son, it seems somehow more valuable to them now. Middle age brings greater lifestyle choice and ‘Northern Soul’ is something many want to celebrate and enjoy, free of someone else’s ‘rules’ and ‘pressures’, and they might just want to relive a bit of it all over again.

One bloke I spoke to recently said that, since he retired, he and the Mrs now take all their holidays literally ‘on the scene’. There are enough weekenders throughout the year to be able to have 2-3 mini-breaks a year without having to leave the country (but for the more adventurous, there’s plenty going on abroad also).

It’s inevitable that for my generation at least, the trip to Blackpool to ‘see the lights’ will have soon been completely eclipsed by the Northern Soul Weekender, which, in the main, tends to be a ‘Nostalgia Northern’ pursuit.

I’ve seen you at venues all over the country Russ, over the years. Few people are as knowledgeable, dedicated and as passionate as you are. You have great taste for all things ‘soulful’ and you know and frequent the places I’m referring to that might be considered more ‘progressive’. I said at the start of the thread, I’ve made a bit of a career of clearing floors to ‘different’ records, but I’m more than happy to live and let live and recognise that not everyone is as up to their neck in ‘Soul’ as some of us might like to be. It’s a broad church and we shouldn’t be at all surprised that some people just want to have ‘fun’ to the soundtrack from the Gods; that is Soul music.

Given these two separate scenes have common Grandparents, it’s important not to enter into a ‘family feud’ of sorts. We all have more in common with each other than we have differences and it’s therefore incongruous to disparage the family from either side.

The ‘Progressive’ scene will just keep on ‘progressing’ just so long as those that are on it ‘want’ to do it.

The ‘Nostalgia’ scene will also just keep on doing what it wants to do. Enjoying the music, the friendships and even creating new memories, in our twilight years.

Often, people cross over from one ‘scene’ to ‘feed’ the other. At my time of life, I like to think I can enjoy it all, regardless, because the MUSIC is important to me and because (even though I might not want to hear it all the time) the Tomangoes, Jimmy Burns and Sam Williams sound every bit as good to me now as they did 40 years ago.

Life is far too short, for Soul fans, or anyone else, to be perturbed by other people’s choices.

We should perhaps be more pragmatic and embrace the differences.

We’ll all be looking in the rear-view mirror before we know it!

Sean

Edited October 20, 2012 by Sean Hampsey

[Garethx]

A very insightful post Sean.

[Guest Mart B]

Think I understand your frustration Russ, but I guess we all really need to accept that there are TWO very separate ‘Northern’ scenes nowadays (probably more). At least these are my observations.

There are a myriad of offshoots, born out of ‘Northern Soul’ (Crossover, Modern etc.) but we might classify the two main factions as the ‘Progressive Northern’ scene and the ‘Nostalgia Northern' scene.

They are related but they are not the same. They’re probably cousins and certainly not twins. They have the same genes… but not the same jeans… lol.

They are different.

1. ‘Progressive Northern’

The ‘Progressive Northern’ scene is frequented by folks who want to hear, play and discover tracks that are ‘new to them’.

The crowd at these events want to ‘hear something different’ on a regular basis, to keep them stimulated and to ‘keep them coming back for more’ — ‘Just like it was in the old days’… seeking out the next big tune, being true to the ‘ethos’ and ‘Keeping The Faith’.

The DJ’s on this ‘Progressive Northern’ scene tend to play new and more recent discoveries. They are as conscious of the 40+ year history as anyone else- they need to be, to ensure that what they are ‘breaking’ is truly ‘new’ or exclusive - but it is these DJ’s - and those who eagerly attend wherever they play - that keeps that particular scene going. They work hard at it, are dedicated, some might say fanatical about their chosen path. They constantly seek those elusive sounds (some of which actually become popular) and are generally the most passionate people you could ever wish to meet when it comes to talking about the music.

And good luck to ‘em. If you or they have got the energy, mental capacity, knowledge, drive, enthusiasm, resources, lifestyle, contacts and (I hate to say it) finances it’s a noble and enjoyable pursuit.

In this scene, and there are numerous exceptions, many discovered the music in the latter days of Wigan or sometime after it closed its doors. They found ‘Northern Soul’ at such places as Stafford, 100 Club, Rotherham, Bradford, Warrington, Keele and in later years Lifeline, Burnley etc. all venues with a culture of ‘progression’ coupled with something of a ‘siege mentality’ as defenders of a dying faith (remember when the black gloves came out again?).

2. ‘Nostalgia Northern’

The ‘Nostalgia Northern’ scene is a different animal. This particular scene is frequented by people who want to hear and play tracks that are familiar to them, to keep them stimulated and to ‘keep them coming back for more’ — ‘Just like it was in the old days’… reminiscing about their youth, being true to the old tunes and ‘Keeping The Faith’.

They probably left the scene sometime before Wigan closed its doors, missed the 80’s and 90’s, spent the decades, between then and now, growing up, getting married, having kids, living and working to pay the mortgage, getting divorced, being made redundant, retraining for a new career, paying off the Mortgage, remarrying and then rediscovering their youth… at the working men’s club… at the bottom of the road, where on the weekend, they play a bit of ‘Northern Soul’.

They don’t want, or need, to travel around the country each and every weekend in pursuit of the ‘next big thing’ or new discovery. Why should they? Those days are long gone for these folk. Northern Soul (as they always knew it) is right on the doorstep. In many Northern Clubs, the dominoes, bingo and ‘turn’ have been replaced by some chap with a box of records. And these old ‘sounds’ remind our typical male of his youth. He has a few Beers with his mates, he might even shake a leg to ‘Landslide’ or ‘Freddie Chavez’ — the wife likes it too — nowt wrong with a bit o’ Motown — and as he leaves he picks up a flyer for an upcoming Weekender. Fancy that our lass? Sunshine, Fish & Chips & Northern Soul? And the rest is ‘a life based on’ history or ‘instant nostalgia’ as Dave Withers once said!

Nothing new there. Old folk have been looking in the rear-view mirror for thousands of years. But, unlike previous generations, these 50 or 60 something’s won’t have to rely on the British Legion, or grow old alone. Thank God. They can grow old disgracefully if they choose to, at the seaside, two or three times a year, or at any number of events across the north that might take their fancy; enjoying a beer or two, catching up with old faces and making new friends, to incredible music that takes them back a bit, keeps the pulse racing, raises a smile and keeps the heartbeat turned up!

And good luck to ‘em. If they have ‘still’ got the energy, enthusiasm, resources, lifestyle and finances it’s a noble and enjoyable pursuit.

And it sure beats crown green bowling!

As it happens, the ‘Nostalgia Northern’ scene has taken to playing and enjoying more ‘post Wigan’ sounds in recent years. The NS Top 500 has recently been revised to reflect this. Not too very long ago ‘I’m So Happy’ and ‘Home Is Where The Heart Is’ were considered ‘Modern’ by many, whereas now some of these are considered passé, by those more ‘adventurous’ down at the club!

Probably a separate thread entirely, but there's a lot more to this than can be explained in a simple post, on a thread, in a forum about whether a DJ should or shouldn’t risk clearing a dancefloor, by playing something out of the ordinary, but I do tend to think there’s also an element of demographic and regional differences (North and South) involved here.

Up North there are literally tens of thousands of folk who went to Wigan, Samanthas and Cleggy... etc. Let’s face it; Northern Soul hasn’t been an ‘underground’ scene up here for nearly 40 years. That genie flew out of the lamp a very long time ago. Northern Soul was actually ‘a way of life’ for most young people, in the towns and villages of the north. They might not have all been hard-core nighter goers (although many of them certainly were) but your Postman, the village Bobby, the Butcher, the Landlord at the local all bought a copy of Tami Lynn ‘Run Away’ and the Tams ‘Hey Girl Don’t Bother Me’ in the early 70’s followed by a Judy Street, a copy of ‘Out On The Floor’ and a Mike Post Coalition during the Casino years! — I imagine it’s not quite like that south of Watford, where there have always been many alternative entertainment opportunities vying for attention and where ‘Northern Soul’ was and is still seen as an ‘exclusive’ club that has to be ‘travelled’ for.

I know it’s probably a separate subject all on its own, but the reality is that the heritage (Nostalgia) side of things and the ‘legacy’ of the Northern Scene, at its absolute zenith in the 70’s, in the North of England, is still seen as one of the things that many Northerners feel quite proud of. And (even though many got busy doing other things, some 30 odd years ago) just like a prodigal son, it seems somehow more valuable to them now. Middle age brings greater lifestyle choice and ‘Northern Soul’ is something many want to celebrate and enjoy, free of someone else’s ‘rules’ and ‘pressures’, and they might just want to relive a bit of it all over again.

One bloke I spoke to recently said that, since he retired, he and the Mrs now take all their holidays literally ‘on the scene’. There are enough weekenders throughout the year to be able to have 2-3 mini-breaks a year without having to leave the country (but for the more adventurous, there’s plenty going on abroad also).

It’s inevitable that for my generation at least, the trip to Blackpool to ‘see the lights’ will have soon been completely eclipsed by the Northern Soul Weekender, which, in the main, tends to be a ‘Nostalgia Northern’ pursuit.

I’ve seen you at venues all over the country Russ, over the years. Few people are as knowledgeable, dedicated and as passionate as you are. You have great taste for all things ‘soulful’ and you know and frequent the places I’m referring to that might be considered more ‘progressive’. I said at the start of the thread, I’ve made a bit of a career of clearing floors to ‘different’ records, but I’m more than happy to live and let live and recognise that not everyone is as up to their neck in ‘Soul’ as some of us might like to be. It’s a broad church and we shouldn’t be at all surprised that some people just want to have ‘fun’ to the soundtrack from the Gods; that is Soul music.

Given these two separate scenes have common Grandparents, it’s important not to enter into a ‘family feud’ of sorts. We all have more in common with each other than we have differences and it’s therefore incongruous to disparage the family from either side.

The ‘Progressive’ scene will just keep on ‘progressing’ just so long as those that are on it ‘want’ to do it.

The ‘Nostalgia’ scene will also just keep on doing what it wants to do. Enjoying the music, the friendships and even creating new memories, in our twilight years.

Often, people cross over from one ‘scene’ to ‘feed’ the other. At my time of life, I like to think I can enjoy it all, regardless, because the MUSIC is important to me and because (even though I might not want to hear it all the time) the Tomangoes, Jimmy Burns and Sam Williams sound every bit as good to me now as they did 40 years ago.

Life is far too short, for Soul fans, or anyone else, to be perturbed by other people’s choices.

We should perhaps be more pragmatic and embrace the differences.

We’ll all be looking in the rear-view mirror before we know it!

Sean

In a nutshell Sean spot on.

[Jordirip]

Very nicely put Sean

I think we have to accept there are two scenes now. I personally think the progressive part should drop the term 'Northern Soul' as it has now been appropriated by the Nostalgia scene and it's comedy clothes and car boot tat. As a northerner myself, it's not something I feel proud about, in fact it's an embarassment and I'm fed up of explaining to non scene people what it is I'm 'in to' as the only references they have are the nostalgia ones.

Jordi

[Steve L]

Sean, that the best written post I've read for a long time and sums the situation up perfectly.

Something I'd like to add is that on the "nostalgia" scene there is a sizeable number of people who aren't being nostalgic. What I mean is that there are people who were never there in the 70s, they've stumbled across the scene in recent years either via going with a partner or mates or in some other way. Before the plates start being thrown, I'm not saying theres anything wrong with people who weren't there.

BUT these people don't and cant be expected to know the ins and outs of the scene, how things were or how they should be and any arguments such as this would mean absolutely nothing to them!

To give you an example theres a night local to me which is actually on tonight, very successful with over 300 in every month. I don't go very often but the last time I went I counted in my immediate vicinity around 20 people who I know, out of this 20 maybe 12 or 13 had no history on the northern scene and had probably never been to a soul night 5 years ago. Its basically an over 50s night out for a fair chunk of the crowd and I daresay the music doesn't mean an awful lot to them.

Dont get me wrong I'm not saying everyone is like this or that theres anything wrong with over 50s going out and enjoying themselves but this type of pesrson has swelled the numbers considerably.

All this adds to the pressure to dilute or dumb things down to please the maximum number of people, keep everyone dancing and coming back next month (Mr DJ - whatever you do dont play a record that they dont know) to the detriment of the whole thing.

[Guest]

Sean,

what a fantastic piece of literature sums the scene up for me perfectly.

[Russ Vickers]

Think I understand your frustration Russ, but I guess we all really need to accept that there are TWO very separate ‘Northern’ scenes nowadays (probably more). At least these are my observations.

There are a myriad of offshoots, born out of ‘Northern Soul’ (Crossover, Modern etc.) but we might classify the two main factions as the ‘Progressive Northern’ scene and the ‘Nostalgia Northern' scene.

They are related but they are not the same. They’re probably cousins and certainly not twins. They have the same genes… but not the same jeans… lol.

They are different.

1. ‘Progressive Northern’

The ‘Progressive Northern’ scene is frequented by folks who want to hear, play and discover tracks that are ‘new to them’.

The crowd at these events want to ‘hear something different’ on a regular basis, to keep them stimulated and to ‘keep them coming back for more’ — ‘Just like it was in the old days’… seeking out the next big tune, being true to the ‘ethos’ and ‘Keeping The Faith’.

The DJ’s on this ‘Progressive Northern’ scene tend to play new and more recent discoveries. They are as conscious of the 40+ year history as anyone else- they need to be, to ensure that what they are ‘breaking’ is truly ‘new’ or exclusive - but it is these DJ’s - and those who eagerly attend wherever they play - that keeps that particular scene going. They work hard at it, are dedicated, some might say fanatical about their chosen path. They constantly seek those elusive sounds (some of which actually become popular) and are generally the most passionate people you could ever wish to meet when it comes to talking about the music.

And good luck to ‘em. If you or they have got the energy, mental capacity, knowledge, drive, enthusiasm, resources, lifestyle, contacts and (I hate to say it) finances it’s a noble and enjoyable pursuit.

In this scene, and there are numerous exceptions, many discovered the music in the latter days of Wigan or sometime after it closed its doors. They found ‘Northern Soul’ at such places as Stafford, 100 Club, Rotherham, Bradford, Warrington, Keele and in later years Lifeline, Burnley etc. all venues with a culture of ‘progression’ coupled with something of a ‘siege mentality’ as defenders of a dying faith (remember when the black gloves came out again?).

2. ‘Nostalgia Northern’

The ‘Nostalgia Northern’ scene is a different animal. This particular scene is frequented by people who want to hear and play tracks that are familiar to them, to keep them stimulated and to ‘keep them coming back for more’ — ‘Just like it was in the old days’… reminiscing about their youth, being true to the old tunes and ‘Keeping The Faith’.

They probably left the scene sometime before Wigan closed its doors, missed the 80’s and 90’s, spent the decades, between then and now, growing up, getting married, having kids, living and working to pay the mortgage, getting divorced, being made redundant, retraining for a new career, paying off the Mortgage, remarrying and then rediscovering their youth… at the working men’s club… at the bottom of the road, where on the weekend, they play a bit of ‘Northern Soul’.

They don’t want, or need, to travel around the country each and every weekend in pursuit of the ‘next big thing’ or new discovery. Why should they? Those days are long gone for these folk. Northern Soul (as they always knew it) is right on the doorstep. In many Northern Clubs, the dominoes, bingo and ‘turn’ have been replaced by some chap with a box of records. And these old ‘sounds’ remind our typical male of his youth. He has a few Beers with his mates, he might even shake a leg to ‘Landslide’ or ‘Freddie Chavez’ — the wife likes it too — nowt wrong with a bit o’ Motown — and as he leaves he picks up a flyer for an upcoming Weekender. Fancy that our lass? Sunshine, Fish & Chips & Northern Soul? And the rest is ‘a life based on’ history or ‘instant nostalgia’ as Dave Withers once said!

Nothing new there. Old folk have been looking in the rear-view mirror for thousands of years. But, unlike previous generations, these 50 or 60 something’s won’t have to rely on the British Legion, or grow old alone. Thank God. They can grow old disgracefully if they choose to, at the seaside, two or three times a year, or at any number of events across the north that might take their fancy; enjoying a beer or two, catching up with old faces and making new friends, to incredible music that takes them back a bit, keeps the pulse racing, raises a smile and keeps the heartbeat turned up!

And good luck to ‘em. If they have ‘still’ got the energy, enthusiasm, resources, lifestyle and finances it’s a noble and enjoyable pursuit.

And it sure beats crown green bowling!

As it happens, the ‘Nostalgia Northern’ scene has taken to playing and enjoying more ‘post Wigan’ sounds in recent years. The NS Top 500 has recently been revised to reflect this. Not too very long ago ‘I’m So Happy’ and ‘Home Is Where The Heart Is’ were considered ‘Modern’ by many, whereas now some of these are considered passé, by those more ‘adventurous’ down at the club!

Probably a separate thread entirely, but there's a lot more to this than can be explained in a simple post, on a thread, in a forum about whether a DJ should or shouldn’t risk clearing a dancefloor, by playing something out of the ordinary, but I do tend to think there’s also an element of demographic and regional differences (North and South) involved here.

Up North there are literally tens of thousands of folk who went to Wigan, Samanthas and Cleggy... etc. Let’s face it; Northern Soul hasn’t been an ‘underground’ scene up here for nearly 40 years. That genie flew out of the lamp a very long time ago. Northern Soul was actually ‘a way of life’ for most young people, in the towns and villages of the north. They might not have all been hard-core nighter goers (although many of them certainly were) but your Postman, the village Bobby, the Butcher, the Landlord at the local all bought a copy of Tami Lynn ‘Run Away’ and the Tams ‘Hey Girl Don’t Bother Me’ in the early 70’s followed by a Judy Street, a copy of ‘Out On The Floor’ and a Mike Post Coalition during the Casino years! — I imagine it’s not quite like that south of Watford, where there have always been many alternative entertainment opportunities vying for attention and where ‘Northern Soul’ was and is still seen as an ‘exclusive’ club that has to be ‘travelled’ for.

I know it’s probably a separate subject all on its own, but the reality is that the heritage (Nostalgia) side of things and the ‘legacy’ of the Northern Scene, at its absolute zenith in the 70’s, in the North of England, is still seen as one of the things that many Northerners feel quite proud of. And (even though many got busy doing other things, some 30 odd years ago) just like a prodigal son, it seems somehow more valuable to them now. Middle age brings greater lifestyle choice and ‘Northern Soul’ is something many want to celebrate and enjoy, free of someone else’s ‘rules’ and ‘pressures’, and they might just want to relive a bit of it all over again.

One bloke I spoke to recently said that, since he retired, he and the Mrs now take all their holidays literally ‘on the scene’. There are enough weekenders throughout the year to be able to have 2-3 mini-breaks a year without having to leave the country (but for the more adventurous, there’s plenty going on abroad also).

It’s inevitable that for my generation at least, the trip to Blackpool to ‘see the lights’ will have soon been completely eclipsed by the Northern Soul Weekender, which, in the main, tends to be a ‘Nostalgia Northern’ pursuit.

I’ve seen you at venues all over the country Russ, over the years. Few people are as knowledgeable, dedicated and as passionate as you are. You have great taste for all things ‘soulful’ and you know and frequent the places I’m referring to that might be considered more ‘progressive’. I said at the start of the thread, I’ve made a bit of a career of clearing floors to ‘different’ records, but I’m more than happy to live and let live and recognise that not everyone is as up to their neck in ‘Soul’ as some of us might like to be. It’s a broad church and we shouldn’t be at all surprised that some people just want to have ‘fun’ to the soundtrack from the Gods; that is Soul music.

Given these two separate scenes have common Grandparents, it’s important not to enter into a ‘family feud’ of sorts. We all have more in common with each other than we have differences and it’s therefore incongruous to disparage the family from either side.

The ‘Progressive’ scene will just keep on ‘progressing’ just so long as those that are on it ‘want’ to do it.

The ‘Nostalgia’ scene will also just keep on doing what it wants to do. Enjoying the music, the friendships and even creating new memories, in our twilight years.

Often, people cross over from one ‘scene’ to ‘feed’ the other. At my time of life, I like to think I can enjoy it all, regardless, because the MUSIC is important to me and because (even though I might not want to hear it all the time) the Tomangoes, Jimmy Burns and Sam Williams sound every bit as good to me now as they did 40 years ago.

Life is far too short, for Soul fans, or anyone else, to be perturbed by other people’s choices.

We should perhaps be more pragmatic and embrace the differences.

We’ll all be looking in the rear-view mirror before we know it!

Sean

What a fantastic post, I'm so pleased that Sean is able to be the mitigator here & has managed to perfectly encapsulate everything. I personally am very happy with my little bit of the scene, I would never have to post on threads like this if everyone was as tolerent of each other as we should be, in my defence I would only normally comment if I feel I have to defend my believes.

Am now off on my travels for tonites soulful adventure....were ever your soulin' have fun.

Best Russ

[KevH]

Great piece Sean.

[TOAD]

sorry but there has allways been a split ie 'the oldies fan' and the newies lot. Some saturdays at wigan just a few hundred in ! And often newies were cheaper to buy than bog standard oldies.When they say they went to wigan what they mean is just the oldies night or mr ms. Fact

[Guest Krissii]

EVERYONE loved oldies night at Wigan . Fact

[Greg Belson]

It's not about the PRICE of things it's about the VALUE they contain.

Good record collections are literally FULL of cheap but wonderful records. I find that the bootleg DJ's 'collections' are full of imitation expensive records.

There's a world of difference between the 'drive' of a collector and the 'desperation' to DJ.

Just my opinion.

That's a marvelous post, Dave......bang on, mate.

Edited October 20, 2012 by Greg Belson

[Sean Hampsey]

sorry but there has allways been a split ie 'the oldies fan' and the newies lot. Some saturdays at wigan just a few hundred in ! And often newies were cheaper to buy than bog standard oldies.When they say they went to wigan what they mean is just the oldies night or mr ms. Fact

That's true. A similar 'split' took place during the Wigan v Mecca and the 'Levine Must Go' periods.

And the rise of the 'Modern' scene - within the Northern scene - also caused a stir.

But, of course, that's all history.

What we need to do is understand the 'now'. What's happening out there and why.

We pays our money and we takes our chances.

Should we get all hot under the collar and try to foist our 'taste' or our preferences on others?

I don't think so.

Having a healthy 'respect' for individual choice is really all that's required.

Sean