Barry Posted October 6, 2012 Posted October 6, 2012 Ovo - agreed.....but you know the prediliction with 7" vinyl over 12" vinyl on the NS scene!? If a 7" version is an edited version of the version released on the 12", does this qualify as the original edit? I ask as surely this means we value the pressing over the song, which can't be right - can it? Discuss.
Barry Posted October 6, 2012 Author Posted October 6, 2012 Ovo - agreed.....but you know the prediliction with 7" vinyl over 12" vinyl on the NS scene!? If a 7" version is an edited version of the version released on the 12", does this qualify as the original edit? I ask as surely this means we value the pressing over the song, which can't be right - can it? Discuss. For 'pressing' read 'format'.
boba Posted October 6, 2012 Posted October 6, 2012 Hi Barry, could you please use more descriptive topic titles than "question"? Besides many obvious reasons, in the long run it would probably get you more reads, even if you get some initial curiosity reads by being vague.
Roburt Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 The 12" version is usually taken (by soul fans; I have no idea about NS'ers) as the definitive take .... .... with the 7" edit just being a shortened version the record company can fit onto the smaller disc. So the 7" is usually the 'poorer' version. Though with some 8 min long 12" tracks, i prefer dancing (at my age) to the shorter version.
spike1 Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 My wife prefers 12" evrytime But she has to make do with 7" (oops wrong site ) 3
boba Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 The 12" version is usually taken (by soul fans; I have no idea about NS'ers) as the definitive take .... .... with the 7" edit just being a shortened version the record company can fit onto the smaller disc. So the 7" is usually the 'poorer' version. this is frequently if not most of the time not true. 12"s were often disco edits done after the track was finished where the initial song was lengthened / extended. It's not a more "authentic" original take in that case.
Roburt Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 (edited) this is frequently if not most of the time not true. 12"s were often disco edits done after the track was finished where the initial song was lengthened / extended. It's not a more "authentic" original take in that case. I was thinking (when I made my comment) of 1990's or Y2K tracks Bob. I'd agree that in the early days (70's) of 12"ers, the 7" was the 'normal' version with the 12" being an extended take on that (usually mixed after the event by a specialist such as Tom Moulton). Edited October 7, 2012 by Roburt
Guest allnightandy Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 Maybe i live in a bubble , but i wasn't aware that there was any 12" northers soul records ! As i recall when they first appeared in the 70's they were classed as like a jazzy disco funk type of stuff , which was one reason i stopped going to Wigan allnighters and only went to Oldies nighters at the same time as the scene almost died 2
Ged Parker Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 Maybe i live in a bubble , but i wasn't aware that there was any 12" northers soul records ! As i recall when they first appeared in the 70's they were classed as like a jazzy disco funk type of stuff , which was one reason i stopped going to Wigan allnighters and only went to Oldies nighters at the same time as the scene almost died I think if a 'Northern Soul' record is one that has been played at a 'Northern Soul' venue and danced to then there loads. You may not like them but thats another story. This thread is another example how anally retentive this scene has become. 2
boba Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 I think if a 'Northern Soul' record is one that has been played at a 'Northern Soul' venue and danced to then there loads. You may not like them but thats another story. This thread is another example how anally retentive this scene has become. Are you sure you mean this thread? And not like 50 page threads about OVO or the many other more controversial subjects than 7" vs 12"?
Pete S Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 Maybe i live in a bubble , but i wasn't aware that there was any 12" northers soul records ! As i recall when they first appeared in the 70's they were classed as like a jazzy disco funk type of stuff , which was one reason i stopped going to Wigan allnighters and only went to Oldies nighters at the same time as the scene almost died I remember Keith Minshull playing the 12" of Miroslav Vitous at Wigan, I think it was at least 15 minutes long, talk about killing the night instantly.
Barry Posted October 7, 2012 Author Posted October 7, 2012 I remember Keith Minshull playing the 12" of Miroslav Vitous at Wigan, I think it was at least 15 minutes long, talk about killing the night instantly. Jesus! Really? Was he p*ssed!?
Pete S Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 Jesus! Really? Was he p*ssed!? Don't think so,most of them had a go with the new format I think, Salsoul 3001, Cathedrals etc, most of the new 12" things got at least one spin. I've still got a tape I recorded in mid 76 featuring the 12" version of "Like Her" which really did go on a bit.
Barry Posted October 7, 2012 Author Posted October 7, 2012 Don't think so,most of them had a go with the new format I think, Salsoul 3001, Cathedrals etc, most of the new 12" things got at least one spin. I've still got a tape I recorded in mid 76 featuring the 12" version of "Like Her" which really did go on a bit. I know but at least Gentelmen and Thier Lady had vocals in it - I'm astounded that MV got a ply @ Wigan.
Ian Dewhirst Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 I remember Keith Minshull playing the 12" of Miroslav Vitous at Wigan, I think it was at least 15 minutes long, talk about killing the night instantly. LOL, instant death indeed. I was never a fan of extended 12" Jazz instrumentals at the best of times but least of all @ Northern venues. The ones that worked for me, were the 12"'s which had a singable song attached - "This Will Be A Night To Remember", "Praying", "Nine Times", "Spead Love" etc, etc. Weirdly, these days, I seem to be selling a lot of the shorter 7" mixes of popular 12"'s because they tend to be a lot rarer than the 12"'s! Some are ridiculously hard to find these days........ Ian D
Barry Posted October 7, 2012 Author Posted October 7, 2012 LOL, instant death indeed. I was never a fan of extended 12" Jazz instrumentals at the best of times but least of all @ Northern venues. The ones that worked for me, were the 12"'s which had a singable song attached - "This Will Be A Night To Remember", "Praying", "Nine Times", "Spead Love" etc, etc. Weirdly, these days, I seem to be selling a lot of the shorter 7" mixes of popular 12"'s because they tend to be a lot rarer than the 12"'s! Some are ridiculously hard to find these days........ Ian D So - format over song.
Benji Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 I've still got a tape I recorded in mid 76 featuring the 12" version of "Like Her" which really did go on a bit. I got a Wigan tape with the 12" of Eddie Holman Night to remember on it.Think Searling played it but am not sure.
Barry Posted October 7, 2012 Author Posted October 7, 2012 I got a Wigan tape with the 12" of Eddie Holman Night to remember on it.Think Searling played it but am not sure. It used to get battered - they booted it with Janice on the flip in the end.
Barry Posted October 7, 2012 Author Posted October 7, 2012 Speaking of 12"s played @ Wigan - Dave Evison used to play George Benson's - 'On Broadway' (think it got his No. 1 'Newie' in '81).
Ian Dewhirst Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 So - format over song. I think it always has been on this scene Barry....7"'ers rule for most I believe. You could never get decent fidelity on album cuts in the 70's on regularly crap equipment and 12"'ers were often too long for an audience that was used to getting their fix inside 3 minutes........ Ian D 1
Barry Posted October 7, 2012 Author Posted October 7, 2012 I think it always has been on this scene Barry....7"'ers rule for most I believe. You could never get decent fidelity on album cuts in the 70's on regularly crap equipment and 12"'ers were often too long for an audience that was used to getting their fix inside 3 minutes........ Ian D I'm not making judgements btw Ian, just trying to find out others views.
Benji Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 Ovo - agreed.....but you know the prediliction with 7" vinyl over 12" vinyl on the NS scene!? If a 7" version is an edited version of the version released on the 12", does this qualify as the original edit? I ask as surely this means we value the pressing over the song, which can't be right - can it? Discuss. No, we value the mix over the format. Most 12" mixes are too long and go on and on and on and on and on. Average NS song is 2:20. Compared to that a 5:00 12" mix is like eternity. 1
Ian Dewhirst Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 It used to get battered - they booted it with Janice on the flip in the end. Eddie Holman was a relatively short 12" coming in @ circa 5.50 so it fitted better than most. "Janice" clocked in @ just under 7 minutes but both are brilliant records which had definable hooks and were uptempo enough for the times. I bet some people still complained that they were too long though........ Ian D
Barry Posted October 7, 2012 Author Posted October 7, 2012 Eddie Holman was a relatively short 12" coming in @ circa 5.50 so it fitted better than most. "Janice" clocked in @ just under 7 minutes but both are brilliant records which had definable hooks and were uptempo enough for the times. I bet some people still complained that they were too long though........ Ian D I remember buying one of the boots from the upstairs record bar (for Janice) - only to be gutted as it jumped...I think a lot of 'em did.
Sebastian Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 So - format over song. No, most 7" versions are more "instant" and better in my opinion. Some cases in point: "Mainline" by Black Ivory, the superior french 7" edit of Sylvester's "Down Down Down", Four Below Zero "My Baby's Got E.S.P.". Playing the entire 12" versions of those tracks bores me out of my mind. And in the example of Sylvester, the 12" version is like a totally different tune and loses all of its punch. Very few tunes gain anything by being stretched out to 8+ minutes. Even an incredible masterpiece and all-time fave of mine like Universal Robot Band's "Barely Breaking Even" gets a bit too much after 10 minutes...
Barry Posted October 7, 2012 Author Posted October 7, 2012 No, most 7" versions are more "instant" and better in my opinion. Some cases in point: "Mainline" by Black Ivory, the superior french 7" edit of Sylvester's "Down Down Down", Four Below Zero "My Baby's Got E.S.P.". Playing the entire 12" versions of those tracks bores me out of my mind. And in the example of Sylvester, the 12" version is like a totally different tune and loses all of its punch. Very few tunes gain anything by being stretched out to 8+ minutes. Even an incredible masterpiece and all-time fave of mine like Universal Robot Band's "Barely Breaking Even" gets a bit too much after 10 minutes... Subjective argument really - down to preference again.
Sebastian Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 Subjective argument really - down to preference again. Ofcourse. I was just highlighting the fact that I personally usually favor the 7" because the mix is shorter and gets to the point faster. Not because it's "format over song". If the 12" version is better, I play the 12". If the 7" version is better, I play the 7".
Barry Posted October 7, 2012 Author Posted October 7, 2012 Would someone purchase say, a 7" of Clausel over the 12" as it displays better in the box?
Ian Dewhirst Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 No, most 7" versions are more "instant" and better in my opinion. Some cases in point: "Mainline" by Black Ivory, the superior french 7" edit of Sylvester's "Down Down Down", Four Below Zero "My Baby's Got E.S.P.". Playing the entire 12" versions of those tracks bores me out of my mind. And in the example of Sylvester, the 12" version is like a totally different tune and loses all of its punch. Very few tunes gain anything by being stretched out to 8+ minutes. Even an incredible masterpiece and all-time fave of mine like Universal Robot Band's "Barely Breaking Even" gets a bit too much after 10 minutes... A lot of it depends on the context of where you were hearing the song though. There was a world of difference hearing the full version of "Mainline" at say, Paradise Garage in New York in the 70's then hearing it in the context of a small UK club with a so-so system in the 80's. DJ's in the 70's would often do "running mixes" which would often run for 2 minutes as one song blended into the other and which could sound sensational at the right clubs, so there was a fashion for many songs to be over-extended in the 70's purely for that reason. For the most part I agree with you though. I never need to hear the full versions of "My Baby's Got E.S.P." or "Barely Breaking Even" again in my life! Ian D 1
Ian Dewhirst Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 Would someone purchase say, a 7" of Clausel over the 12" as it displays better in the box? I bet there's a huge amount of collectors who won't want the 12" under any any circumstances and vice versa. Also, as I think I've said before, some 7" mixes are almost totally different songs to the 12"'s. The 12" of Marilyn McCoo and Billy Davis's "Shine On Silver Moon" is a brilliant 12" Disco mix which sounds sensational over a big system whereas the 7" is a beautiful piece of Modern Soul IMO... I've had Disco collectors turn their noses up @ 7"'s and Northern/Modern collectors do likewise for 12"'s....... Ian D
Sebastian Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 (edited) DJ's in the 70's would often do "running mixes" which would often run for 2 minutes as one song blended into the other and which could sound sensational at the right clubs, so there was a fashion for many songs to be over-extended in the 70's purely for that reason. Yes, I'm fully aware of that and agree with you. Extended 12"s are mixing tools, they were originally intended for club play by DJ's who knew what they were doing and how to mix properly. That bit gets lost on the northern soul scene for the most part. It's always frustrating to hear some DJ play a new soulful house track from the beginning of a 12" and then a 2:30+ minutes drum intro ensues... Edited October 7, 2012 by Sebastian 1
Pete S Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 I got a Wigan tape with the 12" of Eddie Holman Night to remember on it.Think Searling played it but am not sure. HE DID, BUT HE PLAYED IT OFF A 10" PRE RELEASE ACETATE! He had it for several weeks before it was released.
KevH Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 Wasn't Cathedrals on a 17".? Seemed like it.Had to knock a wall out to get it in. 1
Guest gordon russell Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 Maybe i live in a bubble , but i wasn't aware that there was any 12" northers soul records ! As i recall when they first appeared in the 70's they were classed as like a jazzy disco funk type of stuff , which was one reason i stopped going to Wigan allnighters and only went to Oldies nighters at the same time as the scene almost died SAM?
Guest allnightandy Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 SAM? IMHO , it was more Ian "molten mix" Levine and Mr Curtis i know it is said that people started to leave the scene in droves because everything was getting pressed at a tremendous rate of knots and the quality of music was starting to decline as a result but i also think that the introduction of this "Manufactured / tailor made " and so called modern / cross over stuff , contributed to the demise
Barry Posted October 7, 2012 Author Posted October 7, 2012 Yes, I'm fully aware of that and agree with you. Extended 12"s are mixing tools, they were originally intended for club play by DJ's who knew what they were doing and how to mix properly. That bit gets lost on the northern soul scene for the most part. It's always frustrating to hear some DJ play a new soulful house track from the beginning of a 12" and then a 2:30+ minutes drum intro ensues... Yep Seb, we know all about how the 12" mix came about mate, we've been about long enough to realise that. The second part of your post tells me that the people that you listen to haven't got a clue. Sorry mate but tell me summat I don't know.
Barry Posted October 7, 2012 Author Posted October 7, 2012 IMHO , it was more Ian "molten mix" Levine and Mr Curtis i know it is said that people started to leave the scene in droves because everything was getting pressed at a tremendous rate of knots and the quality of music was starting to decline as a result but i also think that the introduction of this "Manufactured / tailor made " and so called modern / cross over stuff , contributed to the demise ...and without it the 'Northern' scene would have been dead and buried when Wigan closed
Guest allnightandy Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 ...and without it the 'Northern' scene would have been dead and buried when Wigan closed On that , we have to agree to disagree !
Barry Posted October 7, 2012 Author Posted October 7, 2012 This scene is and always has been poplulated by a very sophisticated musical group of movers and shakers (ha ha, I actually mean that but it sounds so shit) ....not just sixties soul lovers.... 1
Barry Posted October 7, 2012 Author Posted October 7, 2012 On that , we have to agree to disagree ! that's a good thing #allnightandy
Barry Posted October 7, 2012 Author Posted October 7, 2012 that's a good thing #allnightandy ha ha cool response mate
Ged Parker Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 Are you sure you mean this thread? And not like 50 page threads about OVO or the many other more controversial subjects than 7" vs 12"? The very premis of the question that official releases of a record are more or less original because of the size of the pressing is indicative of why some people think we're mad. 1
boba Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 The very premis of the question that official releases of a record are more or less original because of the size of the pressing is indicative of why some people think we're mad. How is that different than a discussion of two legit presses, one done a few years later, with slightly different label colors and deadwax, and needing a microscope to determine which is the "acceptable" one to play? That thread would many pages with many complicated sets of rules and many people participating. Talking about the 7" mix and 12" mix goes beyond talking about the size of the record and goes down to the actual musical content. Which is crazier?
Sebastian Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 tell me summat I don't know. OK, I'll stay out if this one. Not worth it.
Pete S Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 ...and without it the 'Northern' scene would have been dead and buried when Wigan closed It did just as much to drive people away as to sustain the Northern scene Barry. And it always will do.
Garswood Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 99% of my records are 7" and i'd almost always go for that format, however i think some tunes just lend them selves to a 12" mix, Al hudson-spread love to name one, i never want it to end, fantastic tunage imo, but some "northern" given the 12" treatment are total crap,greg perry -it takes heart is just a silly mix and the 7" version is so much better, as sebastian said in an earlier post, it gets straight to the point...atb phil
Barry Posted October 8, 2012 Author Posted October 8, 2012 OK, I'll stay out if this one. Not worth it. I was a bit abrupt there Sebastian, my apologies. 1
Geeselad Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 its just lazy btards who cant be arsed carrying an album box isnt it? Casnt understand why anyone would go for a re- edit on a 7, thats so backwards looking, 12 inch pressing have loads better quality sound too.
Ged Parker Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 How is that different than a discussion of two legit presses, one done a few years later, with slightly different label colors and deadwax, and needing a microscope to determine which is the "acceptable" one to play? That thread would many pages with many complicated sets of rules and many people participating. Talking about the 7" mix and 12" mix goes beyond talking about the size of the record and goes down to the actual musical content. Which is crazier? They're both crazy. They should be discussions relating to collecting rather than DJing IMHO.
Barry Posted October 8, 2012 Author Posted October 8, 2012 I posted the question simply to give the board something to talk about. When I actually posted it there had been a lull for a few hours, it was simply - a question fella's - don't stress so much 1
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