Buying 45S At Venues

[Dave Moore]

The point made in another thread about buying records at venues is worth exploring a little more I think. Rather than blister onto someone-elses thread I thought it best to start a separate one.

I buy records, like most I presume, from every source. Contacts, Dealers, Internet, and Venues. I have to say that over the years the most disappointing avenue has actually become venues. Here's why I think why...

Many people who source records to DJ with use the easiest method. They need records NOW. This in turn leads to them paying the top price in order to secure that 2.5 mins of Technics time every Saturday night during their spots. Most of these 'DJs' collect for the DJing aspect and once they no longer play a certain 45 they look to move it on and replace it with another. Of course, they bought it a year ago at top whack and now want to add a little on top. These records I avoid like the plague. They've been battered every week, usually on poor equipment, are overpriced to start with and to be honest are readily available at much lower prices if you are patient enough and put a little legwork in.

Another 'dealer' I avoid like the lurgy is the Ebay buyer/seller. (In my experience this type of sales box has become the norm now). Guys who buy off ebay, add 25% and try selling them on. I've often asked these dealers "where did you get that from" to be answered "The Bay" (as though using some sort of cringeworthy lingo gives it more steetcred). So my next question would be ..."why would I pay you more than I can find them for myself?"

I've been to venues that are full of record collectors but have seen sales boxes shunned, and the talk has been of 'shyte", "overpriced", "Nothing of interest", "poor conditions", "Ebay rubbish".

I've found that records at the cheaper end are also a problem. I collect label runs so when I see a missing #s I'll enquire. A lot of these are, in my experience, 10-20 pound records and so that's what I'll offer. Often the seller is trying to squeeze 30 out of it. I stand at say.. 15. I'm often told "F00kin' Ell Dave it's only 15 quid!". But the point is if every record I buy was 100% MORE than I thought they were worth I'd end up paying double what I think my collection should have cost me. Hence I don't mess about. That's what I'll pay - unless it's the final # or some such and that's it.

.

I miss buying off guys like Baz Atkinson, guys who knew what they were doing, guys who could banter and knew the real value of 45s, rather than constantly quoting "Seen at", "Sold on Manship for", "Such and such had one for..." between playing their oldies sets. I've asked for 45s on here even, only to be offered stuff at FIVE times what I eventually paid. Crazy!

Here's the bottom line....In my opinion, it's not collectors that will instigate a 'race to the bottom' as quoted above. It's daft dealers who really don't know what they're doing and are alienating buyers/collectors who are NOT DJs but are in this for the long haul. When the Saturday Night DJ has once again sold his 300 box of oldies and ridden off into the sunset there's only us dusty ole farts left. Best keep us happy guys!

All personal opinions obviously but would be interested in other long time collectors opinions about buying face to face nowadays. The art of the record bar seems to have disappeared somewhat.....thoughts anyone?

Regards,

Dave

[pikeys dog]

People have stopped looking in boxes, because of ebay and online purchases.

I take boxes out to packed venues - perfect example being the Horse and Groom, yet it's the same three or four faces that look through the boxes,

You can't blame my pricing because I almost always manage to sell 45's to those who look - and i'm willing to strike a deal.

Daft thing is, some people are unwilling to pay a tenner for a quality 45, but will buy a beat $5 copy then pay postage on it, and think they've got one over on you since they managed to get one "cheaper".

[Simsy]

Good topic. More likely to be out of my mind when procuring vinyl at a venue. This can lead to impetuous purchases which has seen me pay through the nose in the past.

[Pete S]

"The Bay" (as though using some sort of cringeworthy lingo gives it more steetcred).

so true

[Sunnysoul]

.

Edited October 5, 2012 by sunnysoul

[Sunnysoul]

.

[trog]

The point made in another thread about buying records at venues is worth exploring a little more I think. Rather than blister onto someone-elses thread I thought it best to start a separate one.

I buy records, like most I presume, from every source. Contacts, Dealers, Internet, and Venues. I have to say that over the years the most disappointing avenue has actually become venues. Here's why I think why...

Many people who source records to DJ with use the easiest method. They need records NOW. This in turn leads to them paying the top price in order to secure that 2.5 mins of Technics time every Saturday night during their spots. Most of these 'DJs' collect for the DJing aspect and once they no longer play a certain 45 they look to move it on and replace it with another. Of course, they bought it a year ago at top whack and now want to add a little on top. These records I avoid like the plague. They've been battered every week, usually on poor equipment, are overpriced to start with and to be honest are readily available at much lower prices if you are patient enough and put a little legwork in.

Another 'dealer' I avoid like the lurgy is the Ebay buyer/seller. (In my experience this type of sales box has become the norm now). Guys who buy off ebay, add 25% and try selling them on. I've often asked these dealers "where did you get that from" to be answered "The Bay" (as though using some sort of cringeworthy lingo gives it more steetcred). So my next question would be ..."why would I pay you more than I can find them for myself?"

I've been to venues that are full of record collectors but have seen sales boxes shunned, and the talk has been of 'shyte", "overpriced", "Nothing of interest", "poor conditions", "Ebay rubbish".

I've found that records at the cheaper end are also a problem. I collect label runs so when I see a missing #s I'll enquire. A lot of these are, in my experience, 10-20 pound records and so that's what I'll offer. Often the seller is trying to squeeze 30 out of it. I stand at say.. 15. I'm often told "F00kin' Ell Dave it's only 15 quid!". But the point is if every record I buy was 100% MORE than I thought they were worth I'd end up paying double what I think my collection should have cost me. Hence I don't mess about. That's what I'll pay - unless it's the final # or some such and that's it.

.

I miss buying off guys like Baz Atkinson, guys who knew what they were doing, guys who could banter and knew the real value of 45s, rather than constantly quoting "Seen at", "Sold on Manship for", "Such and such had one for..." between playing their oldies sets. I've asked for 45s on here even, only to be offered stuff at FIVE times what I eventually paid. Crazy!

Here's the bottom line....In my opinion, it's not collectors that will instigate a 'race to the bottom' as quoted above. It's daft dealers who really don't know what they're doing and are alienating buyers/collectors who are NOT DJs but are in this for the long haul. When the Saturday Night DJ has once again sold his 300 box of oldies and ridden off into the sunset there's only us dusty ole farts left. Best keep us happy guys!

All personal opinions obviously but would be interested in other long time collectors opinions about buying face to face nowadays. The art of the record bar seems to have disappeared somewhat.....thoughts anyone?

Regards,

Dave

I'm pretty sure Baz Atkinson sells regularly on ebay.

[Guest Duncan Ball]

how do people know the true value of a 45? ive sold records on here and there always mint so i try to get good prices for them ,the fantastic four ,baby on a mint ric tic didn't sell which amassed me ,put that on a dealers site it would be more expensive bout then ive seen it cheaper as well on here ! so how do you know the true value? if i re listed melvin davis for 150 instead of 1500 you bet i would be snowed under with people wanting it!!!!!!!!!!! all ways loved looking through boxes of records

[Denbo]

.

Could be more explicit?

[Barry]

Could be more explicit?

I prefer a conservative post myself.

[Pete S]

the fantastic four ,baby on a mint ric tic didn't sell which amassed me ,put that on a dealers site it would be more expensive

You can't make sweeping statements like that Duncan, I would have, and indeed do sell it for £25 to £50 less than you were asking for it so please don't tar everyone with the same brush!

I make sure that I sell records as cheap as or cheaper than almost everyone else.

[Tony A]

Could be more explicit?

Was so good he posted it twice.

[Denbo]

Interesting topic. Nice one Dave.

[Guest allnightandy]

My problem was when i started going to venues again , i couldn't read the bloody labels without my glasses which i never carry with me

so haven't bought any for ages

on Ebay you can or could pick up bargins , but there again all this talk on here about import duty, customs tax and massive postal rates , has closed that avenue also !

[Guest Duncan Ball]

Pete i appolagise for my sweeping comment

[Ged Parker]

I often take a 'sales box' and am still selling records out of a mass import I did years ago. I'm a passive seller mostly. If people look and what to do a deal I'm willing to listen but my start point is what I know records have been sold for in the recent past.

I'm not upset if I don't sell anything it just limits my ability to buy new stuff. I mostly only sell things I have more than one of but that doesn't make them less valuable or make me price them any less.

In terms of buying at venues. I look out of interest, to see what others value stuff at, to spot something new, to spot things on labels I collect but rarely to buy to be honest. The main advantage of buying at a venue is being able to see the condition followed by finding the obscure or finding a mispriced 'bargain'.

Recently I have had some outlays to cover so advertised some things on here; some sold some didn't. I brought in most of what I wanted cash wise so the others will go back in the box or on the shelf.

In terms of the 'true value' I'll use one of those sales as an example.

I see a copy of this record at a nighter in a well known DJ's sales at £150 and there is a 'want' for it on here in the same week.

I advertise it on here at £120 and then accept an offer of £110.

I could have bought a copy from Craig Moerer for $75 up until recently apparently; but I didn't know that I just knew it was in demand.

The week before putting it on here at £120 I gave away a copy of the same record to a good friend who I knew liked it.

So is its value £150, £110, $75 or nothing?

The market decides, it always has and always will.

[Chris L]

I have bought at venues, Keith Williams has always been a good place to visit and wherever he is I'll go see. Having said that I've come to the conclusion that the majority of records are at the top end of the price range, VG-ish condition and nothing that tickles my fancy. There are the exception, I thought that the sellers at Cleethorpes last year were very good and I did buy some but at the smaller venues it tends to be the low end stuff.

I do buy on Ebay, you can still get a bargain, I try to stick to US sellers though, they tend to be cheaper and the records better condition (although I have to say that when a UK seller says 'Mint' it usually is just that).

I avoid the GEMMS, Musicstack and the likes, over-priced, badly described and no way to get refunded (the mark of a good seller).

Right now this is not a bad place to buy, also I ask people I've known for a while if they are selling anything.

Not sure I'd agree about the reason for lower prices, the NS world is a different place than 5/6 years ago, the real oldies are nudging 60,

the returning soulies have re-bought their collections and with the current economic climate people have other things on their mind.

BTW it is OK for people to buy to DJ I do know a few who do that but they've tended to lose money, not much but lose all the same.

Message : negotiate, negotiate negotiate..........................

[Stevie]

"I avoid the GEMMS, Musicstack and the likes, over-priced, badly described and no way to get refunded (the mark of a good seller)".

What an astonishing statement. The purpose of these sites is to allow access to a significant number of sellers with a single search. Why would they be more badly described than anywhere else? Gemm makes more guarantees than any other seller I've ever dealt with. Pricing is always going to be subjective, but how can you believe that eveything on these sites is overpriced?

[Ged Parker]

"I avoid the GEMMS, Musicstack and the likes, over-priced, badly described and no way to get refunded (the mark of a good seller)".

What an astonishing statement. The purpose of these sites is to allow access to a significant number of sellers with a single search. Why would they be more badly described than anywhere else? Gemm makes more guarantees than any other seller I've ever dealt with. Pricing is always going to be subjective, but how can you believe that eveything on these sites is overpriced?

Sometime GEMM gives that impression because dealers list stuff at the same price as on their own site PLUS the gemm commission so the same seller is dearer via GEMM that elsewhere. Like everywhere there's good an bad on GEMM

I would make a joke about sweeping generalisations but no on ever gets it (and I mean no one!)

[Dave Moore]

People have stopped looking in boxes, because of ebay and online purchases.

I'm not too sure that that's the real reason. Like I said, I'll try any avenue of source for 45s. The reason I'm now becoming reticent about sales boxes at venues is because of what's in them and how much they are priced at. I'd much PREFER to buy a record face to face off another collector. No postage, no VAT, can see condition etc etc. It just seems to me that the sales boxes of today haven't the magnetic lustre that they had in the past. That's not just a nostalgia trip when you could buy Don Varner for 40 quid, it's what I think is stagnating the venues, or at least it does for me. Up until fairly recently I would never have left a venue without a mitt-ful of 45s but the last few of years it's not been like that.

Regards,

Dave

Regards,

Dave

[Kev John]

People i trust at venues and i've bought of in the past are

Chris Anderton-Midas touch records

Keith Williams-Soulsearcher records

Des Parker-Soul inc

Dave Welding

Johnny Beggs

Mace

Tony Foster

Craig Atkins

Tony O

Keith Minshull

I have got a few bargains of these guy's in 10yrs or so

Good Hunting

atb

soulghost

Edited October 5, 2012 by soulghost

[Raremusicdirect]

I buy from all sources Dave, hunting for something I am after or takes my fancy. The preferred method is face to face, record player to play them on and then friendly negotiation. That perfect scenario seldom presents itself, so its through the mix to obtain things I can. I don't do label runs anymore, mainly for space and volume reasons, besides cost. So have a few small boxes of things I love.

I am sure I have both under and over paid, but I do like to deal with Sellers I trust, because it makes it easier. If that trust element goes, I don't go back.

By way of example I bought a record at a recent weekender, cracked through out, held together with tape on the b side. It was listed at £ 150 whole, but up for offers cracked at £ 75. The play side, played fine. The Seller wanted an offer, I suggested he say what he would be happy with and we agreed on £ 60. That way we both felt good about the deal. I hadn't the money on me (well I had but an alnighter ahead) so took the record and paid 3 or 4 days later. The point being I have good relations with the Seller and there is trust between us. We will continue to trade again............good for both of us....

So it can still be done, but it is harder as Dealers do seem to find it harder to sell at venues (be it just the climate or EvilBay etc)..

I say use them all we can, because many do keep the flow of records coming and condition and sound can be assessed there and then "live" and "live" is almost certainly best in everything in life :-)

Edited October 5, 2012 by RareMusicDirect

[NEV]

Was gonna say IMHO ,but it might give the impression I think I've got some kind of street cred

So ,in my opinion and from my experience ,there are actually more so called "Saturday night dj's " buying records than anyone else, as most people I have met who like to call themselves collectors are moving things on in sales

Infact some are bedroom dj's ,bored of playing same old and needing funds for something new .

I tire of reading the old chestnut " it's not rare ,it was around in quantity in the 80's " ,which is actually true..but it's because it's stuck in a collection and not being played ,that's pushed up the price !

So if your not gonna play it ,sell it to someone who's gonna use it for the purpose it was made for ...putting on a turntable and being danced to

After all ,this scene and its collectors only has its self to blame ..it's caught in its own trap ..the trap being original vinyl only !

So to conclude ...more dj's than collectors ..not enough copies of the emperors new clothes in circulation ...original only policies at venues = silly prices .

The subject of where or who you buy from is neither here nor there ..it's down to whatever price your willing to pay ,not what price someone is asking .

I've bought records off eBay that were graded G and sold them as Vg+ ,because they are much better than the description given by the amateur seller from USA ...and on the same token ,paid decent money for records listed as EX from top dealers that crackled and were Vg-

I personally don't buy at venues ,but know guys who swear by this practice and pick up many fantastic and under the radar records for low prices .

That's probably always been the crux ..if you want a well known ,tried and tested record opposed to a semi or non demand record ,be prepared to pay the price !

[Kev John]

I buy from all sources Dave, hunting for something I am after or takes my fancy. The preferred method is face to face, record player to play them on and then friendly negotiation. That perfect scenario seldom presents itself, so its through the mix to obtain things I can. I don't do label runs anymore, mainly for space and volume reasons, besides cost. So have a few small boxes of things I love.

I am sure I have both under and over paid, but I do like to deal with Sellers I trust, because it makes it easier. If that trust element goes, I don't go back.

By way of example I bought a record at a recent weekender, cracked through out, held together with tape on the b side. It was listed at £ 150 whole, but up for offers cracked at £ 75. The play side, played fine. The Seller wanted an offer, I suggested he say what he would be happy with and we agreed on £ 60. That way we both felt good about the deal. I hadn't the money on me (well I had but an alnighter ahead) so took the record and paid 3 or 4 days later. The point being I have good relations with the Seller and there is trust between us. We will continue to trade again............good for both of us....

So it can still be done, but it is harder as Dealers do seem to find it harder to sell at venues (be it just the climate or EvilBay etc)..

I say use them all we can, because many do keep the flow of records coming and condition and sound can be assessed there and then "live" and "live" is almost certainly best in everything in life :-)

Yes i agree with your statement but don't forget about the old vinyl record shops they recycle a lot of records for us

These places are dying of great places to go to they got lights to see when some of us got bad eye sight!!!!

Edited October 5, 2012 by soulghost

[Raremusicdirect]

Yes i agree with your statement but don't forget about the old vinyl record shops they recycle a lot of records for us

These places are dying of great places to go to they got lights to see when some of us got bad eye sight!!!!

Agreed - vinyl shops almost extinct here already................

[Dave Moore]

Was gonna say IMHO ,but it might give the impression I think I've got some kind of street cred

So ,in my opinion and from my experience ,there are actually more so called "Saturday night dj's " buying records than anyone else, as most people I have met who like to call themselves collectors are moving things on in sales

Infact some are bedroom dj's ,bored of playing same old and needing funds for something new .

I tire of reading the old chestnut " it's not rare ,it was around in quantity in the 80's " ,which is actually true..but it's because it's stuck in a collection and not being played ,that's pushed up the price !

So if your not gonna play it ,sell it to someone who's gonna use it for the purpose it was made for ...putting on a turntable and being danced to

After all ,this scene and its collectors only has its self to blame ..it's caught in its own trap ..the trap being original vinyl only !

So to conclude ...more dj's than collectors ..not enough copies of the emperors new clothes in circulation ...original only policies at venues = silly prices .

The subject of where or who you buy from is neither here nor there ..it's down to whatever price your willing to pay ,not what price someone is asking .

I've bought records off eBay that were graded G and sold them as Vg+ ,because they are much better than the description given by the amateur seller from USA ...and on the same token ,paid decent money for records listed as EX from top dealers that crackled and were Vg-

I personally don't buy at venues ,but know guys who swear by this practice and pick up many fantastic and under the radar records for low prices .

That's probably always been the crux ..if you want a well known ,tried and tested record opposed to a semi or non demand record ,be prepared to pay the price !

Yep, some valid points there but also I suppose it depends on your circle. I don't count many Saturday Night DJs amongst my close friends so obviously perception is going to vary. I do however count many long term collectors amongst them and most of them have made similar observations when we are together.

I'm not sure what relevance the old chestnut "it's not rare ,it was around in quantity in the 80's" has in the thread as that's not really the point of the thread. And as for 'If you're not gonna play it sell it" are you serious? Because I don't feel the desperation to stand behind some poorly maintained turntables and play records to an audience every weekend that I should sell my record collection? You're havin' a laff Nev surely.

Regards,

Dave

[NEV]

Yep, some valid points there but also I suppose it depends on your circle. I don't count many Saturday Night DJs amongst my close friends so obviously perception is going to vary. I do however count many long term collectors amongst them and most of them have made similar observations when we are together.

I'm not sure what relevance the old chestnut "it's not rare ,it was around in quantity in the 80's" has in the thread as that's not really the point of the thread. And as for 'If you're not gonna play it sell it" are you serious? Because I don't feel the desperation to stand behind some poorly maintained turntables and play records to an audience every weekend that I should sell my record collection? You're havin' a laff Nev surely.

Regards,

Dave

The last remark was tongue in cheek Dave

But the not rare in the 80's comment was ,merely trying to suggest that a lot of people are chasing down things and paying a lot of money for records that are considered elusive and rare today ,that were actually soul pack records in the 80's and not considered rare but actually around in quantity ...and probably elusive because those collectors who bought em ,won't part with em

Constellations - i don't know about you ,being one that springs to mind

And for the record ... i don't buy records at venues because i go there for a night out ,to enjoy myself ,socialising and find looking thru boxes of records can be very laborious and boring .

[Wiggyflat]

I wouldn't mind meeting other collectors to trade/swap but there's never anyone wandering round with 50 count original boxes anymore.....if you do go through a box it's usually filled with boots/pressings .Did some trades with Keith Williams at the last Stoke and will be there with a 50 count box again tomorrow.

[Russ Vickers]

It very much depends on the kind of records your looking for. On the whole you will not find boxes of traditional NS records in mint condition, they just arnt out there any more, unless some one has just sold up.

There are certain 'dealers' tho, who I will make a B line for at Nighters, cos you know they will have a variety of different records for sale & their stock is turned over reasonably quickly or they change their stock. There are other 'dealers' who I cant be bothered to look thru cos you know the boxes will be full of the same records, give or take a few, that have been in there for the last five years.

My personal favourite is the little boxes that 'punters' may bring, they tend to be excellent on the whole. Generally speaking Im not looking for stone cold classics in mint condition or obscure records on iconic labels to complete the run, which many traditional collectors might be diggin for. Im neither a proper DJ or proper collector, altho I have a modest collection of sorts, Im just looking for oddball things that catch my ear & yes, I'll hold my hands up to hoping that I might find the 'next big thing' in a box at my next Nighter, Ive been looking & hoping for the last 30 years to no avail, but I keep looking & listening lol.

The record bars are as good as ever in my opinion, just depends whose box ya looking in, & what ya looking for, but then that was how its always been to some extent....

As a slight aside, the one thing that always makes me gigggle tho, so long as you havnt spent next months mortgage, is when you play that, unknown to you record that you bought last night, that last night 'was' the 'next big thing', but when you get home in the morning, in the cold light of day, you realise its a pile of shite ....even better if your with your mates & you've just told them that the record that you've just bought & about to play them will be the biggest sound in the country next week ....old Chinese proverb 'dont buy records when you have your beer/gear ears on' lol.

Good thread BTW

Russ

[Raremusicdirect]

That's probably always been the crux ..if you want a well known ,tried and tested record opposed to a semi or non demand record ,be prepared to pay the price !

Ain't that the truth............

[Chris L]

"I avoid the GEMMS, Musicstack and the likes, over-priced, badly described and no way to get refunded (the mark of a good seller)".

What an astonishing statement. The purpose of these sites is to allow access to a significant number of sellers with a single search. Why would they be more badly described than anywhere else? Gemm makes more guarantees than any other seller I've ever dealt with. Pricing is always going to be subjective, but how can you believe that eveything on these sites is overpriced?

Experience...............