Uk Records With Centre Missing

[Jim G]

Hi Guys, what approx reduction is there in value for a UK Original with the centre punched out?

I have Near Mint Jackie Wilson "Higher and Higher" UK Coral Demo with the centre missing and it got me thinking to what impact this has on value of these.

I have resisted buying records with no centre as prefer the intact item, but sometimes for very rare stuff they might worth a punt I guess?

[Ged Parker]

Depends on the buyer and the item I guess. For me the JW; if otherwise in EX condition; would only be 25% of an intact one where as a Timi Yuro may be 50%. I realise in an auction I'd lose both probably but wouldn't want to pay any more

[Guest john s]

I'd say losing the middle knocks 50% off generally.

Reggae, however, is a different world...

[Pete S]

Massive impact for no centre UK soul records, as the folk above say.

Your Higher And Higher demo would come down from £75 to £25 and even then it might be difficult to get a buyer.

As someone who collects UK, I wouldn't touch a pushed out centre record (as opposed to one manufactured without a centre) unless it was a) extremely cheap or b) one that will be unlikely to turn up again.

As John says, if it's a ska or reggae record the centre makes little difference to the price. They are just too hard to find in any condition that turning one down because of a missing centre would be crazy.

[Guest john s]

As someone who collects UK, I wouldn't touch a pushed out centre record (as opposed to one manufactured without a centre) unless it was a) extremely cheap or b) one that will be unlikely to turn up again.

Agreed.

[Roburt]

I left a UK 45 by Jackie Opel in a 2nd hand place outside Barnsley about 20 years back coz it had no centre.

The shop had multiple copies of 1000's of UK / US soul / reggae 45's and I was sure that on my next visit, I'd find one with a centre in.

Went back a couple of weeks later & didn't find either one with a centre or the one I had 'stashed away' without a centre .... I was daft as, if you bought 20+ 45's off the shop owner, he'd let you have em for just pence each.

Next time I went, some dealer like Manship had poled up and bought every record in the place.

Still chasing a copy of that Jackie Opel 45 at a decent price today !!!!

[Kegsy]

I have resisted buying records with no centre as prefer the intact item, but sometimes for very rare stuff they might worth a punt I guess?

Given some of the records you spout about, I'd have said having JUST the centre bit was preferable.

kegsy

Edited September 24, 2012 by Kegsy

[Jim G]

@kegys don't know what this means!

Edited September 24, 2012 by jim g

[Kegsy]

@kegys don't know what this means!

I have used it to signify "you're welcome, to my humble opinion"

kegsy

[Steve G]

With my UK collector hat on, I wouldn't even bother looking at a record with 'nc' unless it was a label that routinely didn't have centres.

[Denbo]

Depends on the buyer and the item I guess. For me the JW; if otherwise in EX condition; would only be 25% of an intact one where as a Timi Yuro may be 50%. I realise in an auction I'd lose both probably but wouldn't want to pay any more

Good to put a face to a name Saturday. Thanks for coming over and introducing yourself to me.

So, what would you value a UK Timi Yuro on Liberty with centre popped out Ged?

[Denbo]

With my UK collector hat on, I wouldn't even bother looking at a record with 'nc' unless it was a label that routinely didn't have centres.

Not even a REALLY rare UK 45 Ste?

[Pete S]

Good to put a face to a name Saturday. Thanks for coming over and introducing yourself to me.

So, what would you value a UK Timi Yuro on Liberty with centre popped out Ged?

I'd say £250

[Bigsoulman]

I'm a big UK collector, always have been and wouldn't touch one without the original center regardless of how much I really want or how cheap it is, just not worth it IMO, I've let loads go on here and Ebay because of this.

[Denbo]

I'd say £250

Is that what you think it'd safely / max sell for? Or how much you'd like to buy one at, in order to turn a profit?

[Denbo]

I'm a big UK collector, always have been and wouldn't touch one without the original center regardless of how much I really want or how cheap it is, just not worth it IMO, I've let loads go on here and Ebay because of this.

What about very carefully glueing back in a perfect replacement centre that matches the host record?

[Ged Parker]

Good to put a face to a name Saturday. Thanks for coming over and introducing yourself to me.

So, what would you value a UK Timi Yuro on Liberty with centre popped out Ged?

Yeah Dennis good to mmet up. We had met before when the Neighbourhood in Blackpool was going strong but I am easy to forget compared to Roly

I think £300 would be the most I'g go to and it'd have to be perfect other than that. It would only be the 'Northern' crowd chasing it the serious British collectors as you well know would steer well clear of anything less than perfect.

[Tricky]

Glueing in a centre is not anywhere as easy as you would think.

[Ged Parker]

What about very carefully glueing back in a perfect replacement centre that matches the host record?

It'd be as bad as a replacing a label with the photocopy and I suspect harder to do.

[Pete S]

Is that what you think it'd safely / max sell for? Or how much you'd like to buy one at, in order to turn a profit?

You asked what the value was. Some idiot might pay £600 for it, I don't know, but I personally wouldn't. I wouldn't pay £150 for it without a middle.

[Pete S]

Glueing in a centre is not anywhere as easy as you would think.

No it's not, but I'm pretty good at it, except when you come to do a demo, matching up one side is bad enough but both sides in night on impossible. Spokes in the wrong place usually.

[Denbo]

No it's not, but I'm pretty good at it, except when you come to do a demo, matching up one side is bad enough but both sides in night on impossible. Spokes in the wrong place usually.

I agree with you Pete and have had some very successful goes at it in the past. Except for those damned Demos.

Edited September 24, 2012 by denbo

[Denbo]

Yeah Dennis good to mmet up. We had met before when the Neighbourhood in Blackpool was going strong but I am easy to forget compared to Roly

That's MY fault Ged, not yours.

Still, it was good to be reminded.

[Jim G]

cheers all for responses

[Steve G]

Not even a REALLY rare UK 45 Ste?

No. I'd bide my time until one with a centre came along. Having said that I do seem to have amassed a few Sue's and Mercurys over the years without centers!

[Sean Hampsey]

I've always taken the view that its better to have the record than not, regardless of condition.

I'd always grab the N.O.C. (or not very pretty) copy and fill a hole in the collection until a better one shows up, then just move on the spare (upgraded and given away scores over the years).

Worth remembering that 'centreless' 45's were less of a problem in the early days of Soul Music collecting. Folk used to knock out the centre of a UK copy as a matter of course, mainly because the 'imports' had big holes in them too! (as daft as it seems, that's true.)

Most of Dave Godins UK 45's had the centre knocked out, which he did religiously. Everything else about the record perfect... but no middle.

Its always sad to see though and a lot nicer when you pick up a lovely british 45 completely intact, with everything looking like the day it was pressed.

Sean

Edited September 24, 2012 by Sean Hampsey

[Dave Pinch]

I've always taken the view that its better to have the record than not, regardless of condition.

I'd always grab the N.O.C. (or not very pretty) copy and fill a hole in the collection until a better one shows up, then just move on the spare (given away scores over the years).

Worth remembering that 'centreless' 45's were less of a problem in the early days of Soul Music collecting. Folk used to knock out the centre of a UK copy as a matter of course, mainly because the 'imports' had big holes in them too! (as daft as it seems, that's true.)

Most of Dave Godins UK 45's had the centre knocked out, which he did religiously. Everything else about the record perfect... but no middle.

Its always sad to see though and a lot nicer when you pick up a lovely british 45 completely intact, with verything looking like the day it was pressed.

Sean

james hamilton did this with his uk stuff also

[Pete S]

I've always taken the view that its better to have the record than not, regardless of condition.

Sean this is gonna sound daft but I don't think people collect British to actually get the tune, there's more to it than that, why otherwise would we collect some of the rubbish we do? If I was desperate for let's say, "Determination" by Dean Parrish, I'd buy it for £30 or £40 on import, and not £100 on UK Stateside. I think people tend to look upon these as mini-works of art, I sometimes get my reggae records out and flick through them lovingly, I have no intentnion of playing them, I just like to look at them.

Crazy but true.

If people want the track, buy it cheap on US original because 9 times out of 10, it will cost more on British.

[Sean Hampsey]

james hamilton did this with his uk stuff also

Yes he did Dave.

It was pretty standard practice for 'collectors' to do this.

That's what makes the intact copies so desireable. They rarely come from old 'collections' in clean 'untampered' condition, without the centre knocked out, a nasty little sticker or writing on label.

Sean

[Denbo]

I've always taken the view that its better to have the record than not, regardless of condition.

I'd always grab the N.O.C. (or not very pretty) copy and fill a hole in the collection until a better one shows up, then just move on the spare (upgraded and given away scores over the years).

Worth remembering that 'centreless' 45's were less of a problem in the early days of Soul Music collecting. Folk used to knock out the centre of a UK copy as a matter of course, mainly because the 'imports' had big holes in them too! (as daft as it seems, that's true.)

Most of Dave Godins UK 45's had the centre knocked out, which he did religiously. Everything else about the record perfect... but no middle.

Its always sad to see though and a lot nicer when you pick up a lovely british 45 completely intact, with everything looking like the day it was pressed.

Sean

I completely agree with this Sean. Well put.

I'm pretty sure that all UK releases on sale at Manchester's Mazell's Records back in the early days had their centres pushed out because, if memory serves me right, they were all stacked together by sliding them all onto an iron rod that had a padlock thingy on the end.

[Sean Hampsey]

Sean this is gonna sound daft but I don't think people collect British to actually get the tune, there's more to it than that, why otherwise would we collect some of the rubbish we do? If I was desperate for let's say, "Determination" by Dean Parrish, I'd buy it for £30 or £40 on import, and not £100 on UK Stateside. I think people tend to look upon these as mini-works of art, I sometimes get my reggae records out and flick through them lovingly, I have no intentnion of playing them, I just like to look at them.

Crazy but true.

If people want the track, buy it cheap on US original because 9 times out of 10, it will cost more on British.

Pete - I know you're right. I guess i was referring to 'Number' rather than 'tune'.

Back in the 70's I used to collect Action, Direction, Beacon, Stateside, London etc. and many more UK labels and just wanted to complete the label run, regardless of condition.

So, yes indeed, it's 'number' rather than 'tune' mate.

And just reading back, I actually wrote 'record' and meant 'number'

Sean

Edited September 24, 2012 by Sean Hampsey

[Denbo]

Pete - I know you're right. I guess i was referring to 'Number' rather than 'tune'.

Back in the 70's I used to collect Action, Direction, Beacon, Stateside, London etc. and many more UK labels and just wanted to complete the label run, regardless of condition.

So, yes indeed, it's 'number' rather than 'tune' mate.

And just reading back, I actually wrote 'record' and meant 'number'

Sean

Don't back down now Sean. I think you DID 'mean' record and NOT number in your original post. I know, because that's what we all did then and to a certain degree, we still do now. But more perhaps with American Imports now.

[Dave Pinch]

anybody got a chapter five..no middle with surface marks but playable

[Sean Hampsey]

Don't back down now Sean. I think you DID 'mean' record and NOT number in your original post. I know, because that's what we all did then and to a certain degree, we still do now. But more perhaps with American Imports now.

Fook me Denbo, I actually meant "Record Number".... Pete's dead right, e.g. when I collected Direction there was so much crap on there I can't have been doing it for the tune can I?

But... you're also right too... when I wanted PP Arnold on British (even though I didn't want the entire label) a Red / White NOC copy would have done nicely (spot the curved ball).

And I for one would have much preferred a NOC Stateside of Dean Parrish to a Mint copy on Boom any day... because I primarily collected British!

Does that make sense?

Sean

Edited September 24, 2012 by Sean Hampsey

[Denbo]

Fook me Denbo, I actually meant "Record Number".... Pete's dead right, e.g. when I collected Direction there was so much crap on there I can't have been doing it for the tune can I?

But... you're also right too... when I wanted PP Arnold on British (even though I didn't want the entire label) a Red / White NOC copy would have done nicely (spot the curved ball).

And I for one would have much preferred a NOC Stateside of Dean Parrish to a Mint copy on Boom any day... because I primarily collected British!

Does that make sense?

Sean

Yes it does.

[Sean Hampsey]

Yes it does.

Thank goodness!

Sean

[Tony A]

I've always taken the view that its better to have the record than not, regardless of condition.

I'd always grab the N.O.C. (or not very pretty) copy and fill a hole in the collection until a better one shows up, then just move on the spare (upgraded and given away scores over the years).

Worth remembering that 'centreless' 45's were less of a problem in the early days of Soul Music collecting. Folk used to knock out the centre of a UK copy as a matter of course, mainly because the 'imports' had big holes in them too! (as daft as it seems, that's true.)

Most of Dave Godins UK 45's had the centre knocked out, which he did religiously. Everything else about the record perfect... but no middle.

Its always sad to see though and a lot nicer when you pick up a lovely british 45 completely intact, with everything looking like the day it was pressed.

Sean

I used to knock all my centres out as well, was easier to DJ with leaving the adaptor in place on the turntable all the time.

Edited September 24, 2012 by Tony A

[Bigsoulman]

What about very carefully glueing back in a perfect replacement centre that matches the host record?

Nope, no chance

[JOE TORQUAY]

back in the 60s when we had portable disca-trons you had to knock out the centers to play them,

really messed up some of my records, never thought about keeping them for 40 / 50 years back then did we,

wonder if thats one reason why red atlantics started to have no centers ?.

but probably because atlantic were taken over i expect,

joe.

[Pete S]

back in the 60s when we had portable disca-trons you had to knock out the centers to play them,

really messed up some of my records, never thought about keeping them for 40 / 50 years back then did we,

wonder if thats one reason why red atlantics started to have no centers ?.

but probably because atlantic were taken over i expect,

joe.

All of that Polygram group (Atlantic, Philips, Fontana, Polydor etc etc) went over to large centres in 68 with less and less appearing with middles. Don't know why...

[Steve G]

I remember when james hamilton's records came up for auction, so sad to see all those uk 45s with nc's. and scratches on the label to increase the grip on the turntable. :roll eyes:

I'd still wait for a nice minty demo with a centre to turn up, looks like I am in a minority of one.....there' no urgency with collecting UK records today like there is with 'in demand' US records.

[Denbo]

All of that Polygram group (Atlantic, Philips, Fontana, Polydor etc etc) went over to large centres in 68 with less and less appearing with middles. Don't know why...

To save on vinyl costs. Mingy bastards.

[Denbo]

I remember when james hamilton's records came up for auction, so sad to see all those uk 45s with nc's. and scratches on the label to increase the grip on the turntable. :roll eyes:

I'd still wait for a nice minty demo with a centre to turn up, looks like I am in a minority of one.....there' no urgency with collecting UK records today like there is with 'in demand' US records.

Some of the decision making has to revolve around available resources too, don't you think?

[Guest s0ul45]

back in the 60s when we had portable disca-trons you had to knock out the centers to play them,

really messed up some of my records, never thought about keeping them for 40 / 50 years back then did we,

wonder if thats one reason why red atlantics started to have no centers ?.

but probably because atlantic were taken over i expect,

joe.

Not strictly true this Joe, because my discotron, which I still have, has a small centre spindle and has always played Uk 45's with the middle in.

Mr. Barnsfather was also a disciple of the 'knock the middle out' club.

Edited September 24, 2012 by s0ul45

[Pete S]

Not strictly true this Joe, because my discotron, which I still have, has a small centre spindle and has always played Uk 45's with the middle in.

Mr. Barnsfather was also a disciple of the 'knock the middle out' club.

I've also got a discotron that plays solid centre discs

[Steve G]

Some of the decision making has to revolve around available resources too, don't you think?

Well I guess so if something is genuinely and truly rare yes I probably would draw the line there. Trouble is plenty of records that 'pass for rare' aren't really rare at all and those are the ones if I needed them I'd wait for a centred copy of. It's laughable that people think things like Darrell Banks on London and Timi Yuro are rare. There's loads of 'em about. If I didn't have minters and wanted them those types of things I'd wait for a good copy. Make sense?

[Denbo]

Well I guess so if something is genuinely and truly rare yes I probably would draw the line there. Trouble is plenty of records that 'pass for rare' aren't really rare at all and those are the ones if I needed them I'd wait for a centred copy of. It's laughable that people think things like Darrell Banks on London and Timi Yuro are rare. There's loads of 'em about. If I didn't have minters and wanted them those types of things I'd wait for a good copy. Make sense?

Yeah?

Having said that, if Darrell Banks on London ain't that rare, then why don't I have a copy? Because of available funds perhaps?

I mean, what does that sell for these days? Also, Timi Yuro, with a centre?

[Kris Holmes]

i still knock the centres out or cut them out with a hand dinker, hate small hole 45s. so for me it doesn't matter if i'm buying one with a missing centre.

[Jim G]

At the risk of getting killed by you guys, I guess the OVO police wouldn't sanction playing a UK copy anyway if it was out in the USA first?! So NC wouldn't matter

But I guess that it is another topic.......

I am now running for the door....

[Denbo]

I am now running for the door....

Wise decision.