Zz & Co?

[Barry]

What have these been fetching recently fella's?

Does the deadwax markings debate make a difference to price?

[John Reed]

The "2nd" issue always seemed to be offered between 25 - 50% lover than the "1st" issue

[pikeys dog]

I think the "2nd" issue turning up in quantity recently has knocked the price of all copies.

I wouldn't pay more than £50 for either.

[Barry]

Thought so, bid to £48 on one and knocked it on the head, six bidders above me (up to £60) and have been offered a Second Chance Offer - I was only gonna turn it over, think I'll give it a miss.

Cheers for that.

[Prophonics 2029]

I was told that the long matrix was the 2nd but the shorts been turning up for years now, wonder if its like the King Tutt Italian Boot?.

[Floyd]

Hi i asked Ian Clark about the difference between the two copies as he sells them for £50

he told me he knew the label owner and both copies were pressed at virtualy the same time

off release but they were pressed at different pressing plants in different parts of the usa

and although the first run was pressed slightly earlier the label owner considered both to be legitimate

issues (not reissues) can anyone confirm this?

ATB

Floyd

[John Reed]

Thought Ian got them from Jesse Butler himself

[Floyd]

Thought Ian got them from Jesse Butler himself

Hi , yes thats what he told me and he said both presses were originals

but pressed at different locations

is this correct

ATB

Floyd

Edited September 11, 2012 by floyd

[Peter99]

There are plenty of threads/posts on here about the differing presses.

[Barry]

There are plenty of threads/posts on here about the differing presses.

Seen 'em and still came out scratching me head ;0)

[Peter99]

Seen 'em and still came out scratching me head ;0)

Me too Barry. My understanding is that they are all legit. Some very differing prices on this. Great record by the way - have one in me box.

Peter

[Barry]

Me too Barry. My understanding is that they are all legit. Some very differing prices on this. Great record by the way - have one in me box.

Peter

I paid a bob or two for mine bitd but has acquired a skip along the way somewhere Pete.

[Prophonics 2029]

I have long matrix so I can measure it up later on for comparisons of stampers etc but without a small matrix I wouldnt like to say if there is any sound difference.

Edited September 11, 2012 by Prophonics 2029

[Dave Pinch]

the longer matrix is original. i thought that the shorter matrix jesse butler pressed them again when contacted later after plays on the northern soul scene

[Dave Pinch]

i think theres something like 2 years between the pressing runs and the second lot wouldnt have been done if not for the uk rare soul scene...............just an opinion mind.but it makes a lot of difference to some

[Cunnie]

Seem to recall Jesse Butler joining this site a few years ago & saying that the supposed 2nd issues were actually pressed first at a different plant to the assumed first copy's so make of that what you will. Think it was a reply to John Manship.

Do seem to be a lot of both presses surfacing at the moment.

Also noticed how many of the late 70's things on yellow labels throw up the same doubts. ZZ & Co, King Tutt, Pages, Dwight Franklin etc.

Also a very credible version of 'Getdown' on an album from a couple of years after the 7" release to look out for.

[Dave Pinch]

john manship told me that when this was first played ( richard s i assume) he had a dozen long matrix copies..... the shorter ones turned up a little later

[TOAD]

what year was it issued ? I had this when it was played by searling ? Short matrix it came from manship.

[Cunnie]

Didn't the copy Searling first had that he swapped with Sam jump near the end too?

[Dave Pinch]

not sure 1979 i think......i think richard played it end of 1980 but was playing it for a while..i have a tape of him playing it in 82 john had the long matrix first then some shorter ones....the longer matrix was always in his guides as the 1st issue. trouble is when new releases are played theres still a chance for them to be repressed by the label owners if found early enough

[Floyd]

Hi

not sure how true this is ,but i was told some of the first batch of pressings had a pressing fault hence the skip on some copies thats why the second batch were pressed soon afterwards as far ias i know none of the second batch were faulty, this would make sense

ATB

Floyd

[Dave Pinch]

Hi

not sure how true this is ,but i was told some of the first batch of pressings had a pressing fault hence the skip on some copies thats why the second batch were pressed soon afterwards as far ias i know none of the second batch were faulty, this would make sense

ATB

Floyd

its possible....never seen or had one that jumped though

[John Reed]

not sure 1979 i think......i think richard played it end of 1980 but was playing it for a while..i have a tape of him playing it in 82

Although I wasn't around at the time, to me it doesn't really feel like a 70's record. I'd say more like 81/82.

Edited September 11, 2012 by John Reed

[TOAD]

pity refo soul aint working sure this is on a soul sam @casino i put up.

[Dave Pinch]

Although I wasn't around at the time, to me it doesn't really feel like a 70's record. I'd say more like 81/82.

i dont know for certain.. deffo played in 81 could be a 1980 release

[Prophonics 2029]

When did Sam leave the casino..

[Peter99]

When did Sam leave the casino..

1981?

There's a good thread on here about the "Keep the faith not the funk banner" saga at Wigan. I know cos I started it!

Peter

Edited September 12, 2012 by Peter99

[Prophonics 2029]

Ohh I remember that now pete! Was funny.

[Dave Pinch]

the longer pressed matrix has better sound quality than the shorter matrix and the stamp in the runout is embedded where as the shorter matrix is scratched in... longer matrix is much rarer also...just look at popsike

[Prophonics 2029]

the longer pressed matrix has better sound quality than the shorter matrix and the stamp in the runout is embedded where as the shorter matrix is scratched in... longer matrix is much rarer also...just look at popsike

Are they from the same stamper Dave with a 0 with a B in ?

[bri pinch]

when you got the two copies at hand they dont look anything alike

[Prophonics 2029]

Ooooh dear. I just compared my Cheryl Berdel and thats the same stamper but its Chicago.

[Dave Pinch]

the longer matrix is louder also

[Smudger]

This is from the previous thread

Read this in Manship's auction listing re: ZZ:

"Authentic Original! Quick check in case you own the inferior sound quality counterfeit. THE ORIGINAL dead wax has a deeply scratched matrix reading MRP/FR-JB - 51679 -"GRFTG" - Re2 . COUNTERFEIT Lightly scratched matrix FRJB - 51679 - A .then half a turn TLP. Surely the original with strong sound quality is the only 45 worth owning."

I bought a few copies of this 45 from the artist about 16 months back; he had some of each press. When I inquired about the difference I was told the MRP/FR-JB - 51679 is the technical first press, but it was delivered flawed, poor quality vinyl, most copies skipped, so he then reordered with a different plant and the FRJB - 51679 was born. If there is an inferior press, the first would be it. To my ear they both play "loud" the FRJB - 51679 is just on better quality vinyl. I don't know where or what base the rumor of a "COUNTERFEIT" started but I believe the artist has no reason to poorly remember or lie about these things.

Anyway, maybe someone can enlighten me; not trying to talk down John's auction, I just don't believe the FRJB - 51679 is a boot, although there may be a boot of the 45 out there too.

David Griffiths

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[boba]

i've encountered several examples of records that supposedly skipped and were either trashed or repressed, according to the artists. I think that in some cases the grooves were not cut well (e.g. if you look under a microscope they come too close to each other at some points). On an older turntable with heavy tracking force the record would skip forward sometimes, but it is hard to reproduce on a modern turntable with regular tracking force.

[Dave Pinch]

This is from the previous thread

Read this in Manship's auction listing re: ZZ:

"Authentic Original! Quick check in case you own the inferior sound quality counterfeit. THE ORIGINAL dead wax has a deeply scratched matrix reading MRP/FR-JB - 51679 -"GRFTG" - Re2 . COUNTERFEIT Lightly scratched matrix FRJB - 51679 - A .then half a turn TLP. Surely the original with strong sound quality is the only 45 worth owning."

I bought a few copies of this 45 from the artist about 16 months back; he had some of each press. When I inquired about the difference I was told the MRP/FR-JB - 51679 is the technical first press, but it was delivered flawed, poor quality vinyl, most copies skipped, so he then reordered with a different plant and the FRJB - 51679 was born. If there is an inferior press, the first would be it. To my ear they both play "loud" the FRJB - 51679 is just on better quality vinyl. I don't know where or what base the rumor of a "COUNTERFEIT" started but I believe the artist has no reason to poorly remember or lie about these things.

Anyway, maybe someone can enlighten me; not trying to talk down John's auction, I just don't believe the FRJB - 51679 is a boot, although there may be a boot of the 45 out there too.

David Griffiths

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the artist could be still pressing them up for all we know especially if he`s still letting copies out 30 years after the record was originally played..... like an elijah cole lucky davis dwight franklin type of scenario who knows the first longer matrix copy is certainly louder and beefier than the shorter when i compared them

[Barry]

This is from the previous thread

Read this in Manship's auction listing re: ZZ:

"Authentic Original! Quick check in case you own the inferior sound quality counterfeit. THE ORIGINAL dead wax has a deeply scratched matrix reading MRP/FR-JB - 51679 -"GRFTG" - Re2 . COUNTERFEIT Lightly scratched matrix FRJB - 51679 - A .then half a turn TLP. Surely the original with strong sound quality is the only 45 worth owning."

I bought a few copies of this 45 from the artist about 16 months back; he had some of each press. When I inquired about the difference I was told the MRP/FR-JB - 51679 is the technical first press, but it was delivered flawed, poor quality vinyl, most copies skipped, so he then reordered with a different plant and the FRJB - 51679 was born. If there is an inferior press, the first would be it. To my ear they both play "loud" the FRJB - 51679 is just on better quality vinyl. I don't know where or what base the rumor of a "COUNTERFEIT" started but I believe the artist has no reason to poorly remember or lie about these things.

Anyway, maybe someone can enlighten me; not trying to talk down John's auction, I just don't believe the FRJB - 51679 is a boot, although there may be a boot of the 45 out there too.

David Griffiths

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Well that explains why mine has acquired a skip.

[Prophonics 2029]

"Authentic Original! Quick check in case you own the inferior sound quality counterfeit. THE ORIGINAL dead wax has a deeply scratched matrix reading MRP/FR-JB - 51679 -"GRFTG" - Re2

My copy has MRP/FR-JB - 51679 -GRFTG an inch gap then C with a B inside is this 3 copys?

B side reads MRP/FR-JB - 51679 -B4R C with a B

Edited September 21, 2012 by Prophonics 2029

[Dave Pinch]

"Authentic Original! Quick check in case you own the inferior sound quality counterfeit. THE ORIGINAL dead wax has a deeply scratched matrix reading MRP/FR-JB - 51679 -"GRFTG" - Re2

My copy has MRP/FR-JB - 51679 -GRFTG an inch gap then C with a B inside is this 3 copys?

could be

[John Reed]

I think the way forward is to buy both (or all three?), that way all the bases are covered.

[Dave Pinch]

I think the way forward is to buy both (or all three?), that way all the bases are covered.

as long as there cheap enough john

[boba]

the artist could be still pressing them up for all we know especially if he`s still letting copies out 30 years after the record was originally played..... like an elijah cole lucky davis dwight franklin type of scenario who knows the first longer matrix copy is certainly louder and beefier than the shorter when i compared them

it is very hard to press up the record now and have it look like it did in the '70s

[Peter99]

Mm, just thinking to myself that I'll have to dig mine out and check for the long or short matrix - just like I did the last time we discussed this - maybe two years ago? And the time before that.

And I still can't remember which one I've got! The so called real one I think - but I can't remember. Now, shall I go and find said record - not sure where it is, or would it be easier to check the previous threads to see what I've said previously?

Doh!

[Prophonics 2029]

it is very hard to press up the record now and have it look like it did in the '70s

Is it Bob ? or could you lose one good copy to plate for a stamper ?

Edited September 22, 2012 by Prophonics 2029

[boba]

Is it Bob ? or could you lose one good copy to plate for a stamper ?

The plates aren't the only issue, the vinyl and labels (including the paper for the labels) are also very hard to replicate. An expert could maybe do it but someone who produced one or two records isn't going to be an expert record counterfeiter or even understand the importance and detail involved in fooling collectors.

We've had this argument before based on a discussion you had with Peter Brown. Even if you believe him, he's an expert at pressing and repressing records and understands the collecting market.

[Dave Pinch]

it is very hard to press up the record now and have it look like it did in the '70s

this is the thing bob, not just the longer/ shorter matrix, the vinyl looks totally different. i was just putting another scenario forward in reality the were probably pressed up years and years ago and sat on for a while. either way the shorter matrix turns up much more often not just seeing on lists especially where a guy has multiples but also you only have to look on popsike to see that the longer matrix , embedded run out originals hardly ever show up on there

[Dave Pinch]

The plates aren't the only issue, the vinyl and labels (including the paper for the labels) are also very hard to replicate. An expert could maybe do it but someone who produced one or two records isn't going to be an expert record counterfeiter or even understand the importance and detail involved in fooling collectors.

We've had this argument before based on a discussion you had with Peter Brown. Even if you believe him, he's an expert at pressing and repressing records and understands the collecting market.

i know its a different record but the dwight franklin looked very good. a different kettle of fish because thats a more recent discovery. were they all 70s presses or were all copies brand new. i think the only differences between pressings was the scratched out info in the runout on the 2nd presses

[Robin S]

When did Sam leave the casino..

1980 the week after playing "Casanova" I seem to remember..

[Prophonics 2029]

The plates aren't the only issue, the vinyl and labels (including the paper for the labels) are also very hard to replicate. An expert could maybe do it but someone who produced one or two records isn't going to be an expert record counterfeiter or even understand the importance and detail involved in fooling collectors.

We've had this argument before based on a discussion you had with Peter Brown. Even if you believe him, he's an expert at pressing and repressing records and understands the collecting market.

I have have been putting labels under the microscope to see what they look like and sometimes I get a surprise, amazed at what I see in the paper! fibres, sparkle dotts in the print,

[Guest Nick Harrison]

1980 the week after playing "Casanova" I seem to remember..

:lol: - And Casanova went on later to receive a uk release and a huge Clifton Hall tune.......!!

Anyway back to ZZ and Co thread.