Eddie Parker - Love You Baby Boot?

[Chris L]

Soul Bowl used to sell the green and white copies without an Archer stamp, I bought one at the time, but they were never regarded as originals.

You know I've seen about 3 or 4 types of look-a-like boots. Having said that there does seem to be a copy that hails from the US without the stamp. It's

always been assumed it came from those 70s boots that Selectadisc sold (Hesitations, Barbara Mills, etc;) these has almost perfect labels

and in the case of Jerry Cook and Alex Patten actual original labels. Boots wouldn't have found their way to the US in the 70s. I guess it's so

long ago we'll never really know, if you want a 100% guarantee then you have to get it with stamp.

Edited February 6, 2013 by Chris L

[B1 Okeh]

This is the 3www picture Chris L on my Love you Baby 

[neckender]

On 6 February 2013 at 09:08, Chris L said:

 

 

You know I've seen about 3 or 4 types of look-a-like boots. Having said that there does seem to be a copy that hails from the US without the stamp. It's

always been assumed it came from those 70s boots that Selectadisc sold (Hesitations, Barbara Mills, etc;) these has almost perfect labels

and in the case of Jerry Cook and Alex Patten actual original labels. Boots wouldn't have found their way to the US in the 70s. I guess it's so

long ago we'll never really know, if you want a 100% guarantee then you have to get it with stamp.

chris, we went to the US in 1979 and found some Northern bootlegs in amongst the original records.

[Chris L]

21 hours ago, neckender said:

chris, we went to the US in 1979 and found some Northern bootlegs in amongst the original records.

Really ? Do you remember which ones ?

[Kegsy]

On 2/6/2013 at 09:08, Chris L said:

 

 

You know I've seen about 3 or 4 types of look-a-like boots. Having said that there does seem to be a copy that hails from the US without the stamp. It's

always been assumed it came from those 70s boots that Selectadisc sold (Hesitations, Barbara Mills, etc;) these has almost perfect labels

and in the case of Jerry Cook and Alex Patten actual original labels. Boots wouldn't have found their way to the US in the 70s. I guess it's so

long ago we'll never really know, if you want a 100% guarantee then you have to get it with stamp.

Unless said "boots" were actually repressed in the U.S. in the first place, I've often wondered whether many so called "UK made lookalike boots" were not just ordered from the original labels in the U.S. and pressed up. I once bought two copies of The Dalton Boys on V.I.P. demo from the same guy in the U.S., they arrived in the same package, one was an original the other wasn't, i never noticed until the dealer I sold them to sent one back !. 

[Chris L]

2 hours ago, Kegsy said:

Unless said "boots" were actually repressed in the U.S. in the first place, I've often wondered whether many so called "UK made lookalike boots" were not just ordered from the original labels in the U.S. and pressed up. I once bought two copies of The Dalton Boys on V.I.P. demo from the same guy in the U.S., they arrived in the same package, one was an original the other wasn't, i never noticed until the dealer I sold them to sent one back !. 

That's true we all know what Monarch were up to in the 70s 

[neckender]

On 28 January 2018 at 17:55, Chris L said:

Really ? Do you remember which ones ?

Although its difficult to remember all the titles, i do remember the Fabulous Jades-Rika, Superlatives-Uptite & Carl Henderson-that girl-Renfro.  All a bit disconcerting at the time.

[Ady Croasdell]

On 2/6/2013 at 09:08, Chris L said:

 

 

You know I've seen about 3 or 4 types of look-a-like boots. Having said that there does seem to be a copy that hails from the US without the stamp. It's

always been assumed it came from those 70s boots that Selectadisc sold (Hesitations, Barbara Mills, etc;) these has almost perfect labels

and in the case of Jerry Cook and Alex Patten actual original labels. Boots wouldn't have found their way to the US in the 70s. I guess it's so

long ago we'll never really know, if you want a 100% guarantee then you have to get it with stamp.

The first boots I found over there were Belgian boots for the Popcorn scene. I got about 10 Sam Fletchers on a dodgy Tollie label out of Downstairs records in NYC. I sold them on as what they were.

[Chris L]

3 hours ago, ady croasdell said:

The first boots I found over there were Belgian boots for the Popcorn scene. I got about 10 Sam Fletchers on a dodgy Tollie label out of Downstairs records in NYC. I sold them on as what they were.

That Sam Fletcher started it for the Belgian boots, there was a big import record shop in Antwerp that got them done.

[Phonostage]

HI everyone, I am new to this group so 'Hello'. I couldn't resist joining in with this thread for a couple of reasons.. firstly this pressing, with 'Archer' in the run-outs. Every one of these (represses/unofficial/bootleg or whatever)  I have seen including the badly photographed 'unofficial' release on Discogs has the text 'Arranged By' overlapping the green 'a', whereas the original on the same site has 'Arranged by' to the left of the 'a' and not overlapping it.. also the look of the label is generally sharper on the original. My copy is confusing me for a couple of reasons. Firstly the label is the same as the original on Discogs and other (apparent) originals I have seen, yet the run-outs have 'ARCHER' unevenly stamped.. But then so does a rare - original - demo pressing that I saw sold (possibly on here) a little while ago.. that was seemingly original and with ARCHER.. so do we understand this well enough? I have tried to figure out if mine is an original pressing or an unofficial release by looking at the label as well as the run-outs are there are so many inconsistencies in what people report and what their opinion is on this.. Can I ask people for their thoughts? Oh and the other thing is I have taken some decent photos as there are a lot of blurry ones here.. these can serve as a reference but I don't know how to post them.. here are some links to them on Photobucket.. thanks.. Tony

Label 1

Runout 1

Runout 2

Runout 3

Runout 4

Runout 5

 

 

 

[Smudger]

 

Good photo's ,tried to load them on here but too small to see and couldn't enlarge,can see clearly and enlarge on your links though. Thanks

My copy same as this one bought it for 50P on Doncaster Market so always thought it was a boot

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 3, 2020 by Smudger

[Phonostage]

HI - I have just had it on reliable authority that the one of mine is a boot.. albeit a nice one! I will upload the images to here now that I can..  for reference

Thanks

[Phonostage]

Here are the pictures I promised! I am now able to upload them. Thanks all]

[Chalky]

9 minutes ago, Phonostage said:

HI - I have just had it on reliable authority that the one of mine is a boot.. albeit a nice one! I will upload the images to here now that I can..  for reference

Thanks

It is a boot, real one Archer is larger and straight, there is a scan early in the topic

[Blackpoolsoul]

1 hour ago, Chalky said:

It is a boot, real one Archer is larger and straight, there is a scan early in the topic

Was this a Soussan one, with the Selectadisc connection ?

[Phonostage]

2 hours ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

Was this a Soussan one, with the Selectadisc connection ?

HI - I am not sure where it came from. I got it in auction.. from the south!

 

[Nick Soule]

Earlier this year some left over stock from Lorraine Chandler's estate was sold to a record store in Detroit. It included copies of The Four Sonics and Joe Buckman records on Sepia, Perfections on Drumhead, Eddie Parker on Triple B, along with about 5 stock copies and 1 demo copy of the Eddie Parker on Ashford. The demo copy had the large and raised ARCHER stamp, but the stock copies had no stamp at all. I've only found this record twice before - once in Chicago and once in Detroit, and neither of those copies had the stamp either. 

[Blackpoolsoul]

3 hours ago, Nick Soule said:

Earlier this year some left over stock from Lorraine Chandler's estate was sold to a record store in Detroit. It included copies of The Four Sonics and Joe Buckman records on Sepia, Perfections on Drumhead, Eddie Parker on Triple B, along with about 5 stock copies and 1 demo copy of the Eddie Parker on Ashford. The demo copy had the large and raised ARCHER stamp, but the stock copies had no stamp at all. I've only found this record twice before - once in Chicago and once in Detroit, and neither of those copies had the stamp either. 

There were boots with no stamp (3 in all I believe)

[Soulfusion]

Two 'stock' copies have come up for sale at British Bespoke Auctions recently with the raised AR in the ARCHER stamp. One sold for £60 in May and the other for £35 in June.

Edited July 3, 2020 by Soulfusion

[Nick Soule]

26 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

There were boots with no stamp (3 in all I believe)

I really don’t think the copies without the Archer stamps are bootlegs. Why would Lorraine have bootlegs mixed in with other 60s stock? And like I said in an earlier post, the only other two that I’ve turned up were well used copies that were in collections comprised of records from the 60s. 

[B1 Okeh]

Hi bought this of JM a couple of years ago with no Archer stamp but as 3www in the matrix John said Definite original would anybody care to elaborate on this 

Edited July 4, 2020 by B1 Okeh

[Chalky]

1 hour ago, B1 Okeh said:

Hi bought this of JM a couple of years ago with no Archer stamp but as 3www in the matrix John said Definite original would anybody care to elaborate on this 

Three W stamped ones are original.  

[Blackpoolsoul]

9 hours ago, Nick Soule said:

I really don’t think the copies without the Archer stamps are bootlegs. Why would Lorraine have bootlegs mixed in with other 60s stock? And like I said in an earlier post, the only other two that I’ve turned up were well used copies that were in collections comprised of records from the 60s. 

If that's the case I stand corrected as I was told ages ago that 1st Bootlegs have and "ARCHER" Stamped Matrix, 2nd Bootlegs have a similar "Archer" Stamped Matrix and 3rd Bootlegs have NO Stamp at all

[Phonostage]

On 04/07/2020 at 07:45, Chalky said:

Three W stamped ones are original.  

HI - If you look a bit higher up here my copy has the 3W etched and also an Archer stamp but the view is that it is not original.. what are your thoughts? I have posted pictures higher up

[Phonostage]

8 hours ago, Phonostage said:

HI - If you look a bit higher up here my copy has the 3W etched and also an Archer stamp but the view is that it is not original.. what are your thoughts? I have posted pictures higher up

Ahh - actually I might be mixing up triple 'B' and triple 'W'

[Kaygee]

On 04/07/2020 at 07:45, Chalky said:

Three W stamped ones are original.  

Johnny Bragg "there talkin about me" also has three W's, any connection between the two? 

 

 

Edited August 14, 2021 by Kaygee

[Kaygee]

10 minutes ago, Kaygee said:

Johnny Bragg "there talkin about me" also has three W's, any connection between the two? 

 

 

Just come across this; 

 

Quote:

... has symbol w above m and Ɛ ....

I see this 'symbol' inscription quite often on locally-pressed 45s; I believe it is the initials of the person who cut the master lacquer (in a Nashville studio). I'd think that it's unlikely (but not impossible) that a counterfeiter would reproduce that for a fake.

[Solidsoul]

Eddie Parker  "Love You Baby" on an Ashford original first issue white demo and original green and white issue copies, have a large ARCHER stamp in the run out groove. This has letters that are level with each other and don't run downhill. The outer rim of the record is slightly bevelled.

All other copies are legal reissues, counterfeits, pressings and modern lookalikes.

The copies with the small archer stamp that runs downhill are not 1968 originals and are counterfeits. 

  The copies with the scratched in  3www without the archer stamp are legal reissues, which are believed to have been done by label owners.

There are various boots and lookalikes as well.  The true original is a rare record and not many have one!

As you probably know, this record was one of the biggest records on the Northern scene, this is why there were so many of these official and unofficial copies made.

To put it in a nutshell.  Large level initial letters ARCHER stamp in the run out is the original first issue, as in this picture of the true first issue.

 

 

Edited February 23 by Solidsoul

[Paraboliccurve]

I'm a bit late to this but just to add my twopennorth - I'm as sure as I can be that there are originals with no stamp, as others above have said.

I base this on a few things but mostly that I got my copy from a tiny little record shop in York, Pennsylvania, in 1988 (I actually got three copies and sold two, one to Danny Everard I *think* though that might be wrong, it's a long time ago) - all marked with the same 'play side' felt tip cross as in one post above.

I am aware of the pressing situation in the States - it's obviously where a lot of boots were made, and indeed I have visited pressing plants in search of info and maybe even tapes etc back when it was worth going over (never got much useful info or tapes mind you!) - but it beggars belief to me that anyone would go to the trouble of producing an Eddie Parker boot (or any boot) and then ship multiple copies to insignificant record shops in outlying northern towns where they could possibly be discovered and bought for 50c each years later. It would cost more to produce and ship them.

I can understand why it would be worth shipping to someone like Val Shiveley (not imputing anything improper to Val), because visiting his place in Philly was like walking into Hurts Yard some days - more Midlands/Yorkshire/Lancashire/Sweaty accents than local.

If Val had wanted to, if the boots had been really good, and if he'd been prepared to do it, he could easily have knocked out boots to unknowing northern punters, certainly back in the lower-information pre-internet days (not that he would.) The very fact that it came from Val Shively (or similar) would have given it the necessary imprimatur.

But a little mom and pop operation run by a bloke who also sold toasters and CB radios five hundred miles from Detroit? I don't think so. Makes no possible sense.

It is easy to identify some known bootlegs but hard to prove a negative, given the chaotic and fly-by-night nature of many small US record labels in the 60s and 70s, and claims to know the absolute and definitive story of issues/boots/legal reissues/second issues on any given record are (I think) sometimes on thin ice.

What is a known 'fact' today is often disproved tomorrow by the emergence of unanticipated new evidence.

 

 

[Solidsoul]

On 20/01/2024 at 12:40, Paraboliccurve said:

I'm a bit late to this but just to add my twopennorth - I'm as sure as I can be that there are originals with no stamp, as others above have said.

I base this on a few things but mostly that I got my copy from a tiny little record shop in York, Pennsylvania, in 1988 (I actually got three copies and sold two, one to Danny Everard I *think* though that might be wrong, it's a long time ago) - all marked with the same 'play side' felt tip cross as in one post above.

I am aware of the pressing situation in the States - it's obviously where a lot of boots were made, and indeed I have visited pressing plants in search of info and maybe even tapes etc back when it was worth going over (never got much useful info or tapes mind you!) - but it beggars belief to me that anyone would go to the trouble of producing an Eddie Parker boot (or any boot) and then ship multiple copies to insignificant record shops in outlying northern towns where they could possibly be discovered and bought for 50c each years later. It would cost more to produce and ship th

But a little mom and pop operation run by a bloke who also sold toasters and CB radios five hundred miles from Detroit? I don't think so. Makes no possible sense.

It is easy to identify some known bootlegs but hard to prove a negative, given the chaotic and fly-by-night nature of many small US record labels in the 60s and 70s, and claims to know the absolute and definitive story of issues/boots/legal reissues/second issues on any given record are (I think) sometimes on thin ice.

 

 

 

Original first issue with the correct ARCHER stamp.

The copies without the large ARCHER stamp at all, are legal reissues repressed a short while after the original release, in the USA by the label owners.

 It still has the 3 w's scratched in the runout, but by then they had stopped using the large ARCHER stamp. 

Soul Bowl records had this repress in quality for their lists back in the late 1970's early 1980's.

The copies with the downhill sloping, small letter archer stamps are counterfeits.

Edited February 23 by Solidsoul

[Paraboliccurve]

Just now, Solidsoul said:

The copies without the large ARCHER stamp are proper reissues made in the early 1970's in the USA by the label owners. They had heard of the massive popularity of the record in the UK and got it repressed at the same pressing plant. It still has the 3 w's scratched in the runout, but by then they had stopped using the large ARCHER stamp.  Only some got shipped to the UK (Soul Bowl etc) but the rest ended up being junked in the States.

The copies with the sloping small archer stamps are counterfeits.

Ah that would make some sense - though I still don't quite understand why they wouldn't all get shipped direct to the UK.

Why would copies get shipped to eg York, PA?

(Though as per my above comment - chaos, unpredictability, lunatic behaviour, bad business sense etc characterise a lot of those labels.)

Can I ask, is this surmising or is it based on documentation or conversations with Ashford people?

 

[Paraboliccurve]

On 20/01/2024 at 13:08, Paraboliccurve said:

Can I ask, is this surmising or is it based on documentation or conversations with Ashford people?

 

Answer came there none.

[Solidsoul]

On 31/01/2024 at 16:58, Paraboliccurve said:

Answer came there none.

On an interview Lorraine Chandler said she had them repressed, but the repress did not have the ARCHER stamp.

See picture with view of the rare first issue original stamp.

But if people want to pretend the reissues or counterfeits are originals then that's up to them! 

Edited February 23 by Solidsoul