Auction Results Vs. Manship

[Peter Richer]

Thought I'd point out that the phenomena of buying at higher prices from auctions, when the same records are available cheaper on set-sale, sometimes hits the main dealers too.

Take the Darrow Fletcher 'What Good Am I Without You' which sold on e-bay last night for £115:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/110933062882?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649#ht_500wt_957

Well done to the seller, and good result!

But as for the buyer, why did they not just go to Manship's site and buy it for £100?

https://www.raresoulman.co.uk/d/52019/FLETCHER,_DARROW

It's there plain enough in the 'shop window' for everyone to see.

Just goes to show the record buying/collecting world is a funny one, and the psychology involved is interesting to say the least!

[Pete S]

Thought I'd point out that the phenomena of buying at higher prices from auctions, when the same records are available cheaper on set-sale, sometimes hits the main dealers too.

Take the Darrow Fletcher 'What Good Am I Without You' which sold on e-bay last night for £115:

https://www.ebay.co.u...49#ht_500wt_957

Well done to the seller, and good result!

But as for the buyer, why did they not just go to Manship's site and buy it for £100?

https://www.raresoulm...LETCHER,_DARROW

It's there plain enough in the 'shop window' for everyone to see.

Just goes to show the record buying/collecting world is a funny one, and the psychology involved is interesting to say the least!

I had one cheaper than that even a week or two ago. But what if the bidders don't like me or J Manship for whatever reason, they may actually choose not to buy off certain people on purpose - I know I do, same as I won't sell to certain people.

[Roburt]

RE: they may actually choose not to buy off certain people on purpose - I know I do, same as I won't sell to certain people.

........... best not upset you then Pete !!

[Peter Richer]

I had one cheaper than that even a week or two ago. But what if the bidders don't like me or J Manship for whatever reason, they may actually choose not to buy off certain people on purpose - I know I do, same as I won't sell to certain people.

Yes, I'm sure that happens too, and I guess that's part of the psychology. It's not all just about the price and condition of a record.

Some people don't like some dealers (and vice-versa), or don't like any dealers at all. Some people won't buy off e-bay with the additional risks and uncertainties involved.

Others prefer the chance to haggle over price; or face to face contact where they can see the actual record.

Some get 'carried away' when they are involved in an auction; and plenty are simply too lazy to do a bit of research!

All part of the mix. But it's interesting to see results go a different way to that which we usually expect.

[Pete S]

RE: they may actually choose not to buy off certain people on purpose - I know I do, same as I won't sell to certain people.

........... best not upset you then Pete !!

I think we all do that though? People who've stolen records off me (yes, literally stolen from my house), people who constantly waste time ordering stuff then never paying for it and so on.

[Tiberius]

Another case of auction fever most prob. Happens every day. You see something go through ebay for a certain price and simultaneously find it cheaper on discogs or wherever.

[Tezza]

I think we all do that though? People who've stolen records off me (yes, literally stolen from my house), people who constantly waste time ordering stuff then never paying for it and so on.

Stolen from your House ?? -- That is awful !! Come along posing as potential buyers ??

How low can some people get !!

[boba]

It takes enough time to find records on ebay. Pointing out that some dealer had it for cheaper presupposes that the buyer is going to spend time shopping around the entire internet (and private lists) for the best deals for every single record. That is very tedious and time consuming.

Edited August 17, 2012 by boba

[paultp]

It takes enough time to find records on ebay. Pointing out that some dealer had it for cheaper presupposes that the buyer is going to spend time shopping around the entire internet (and private lists) for the best deals for every single record. That is very tedious and time consuming.

I'd have thought a quick google would have brought it up?

I've quite often heard records I think are fantastic on eBay but then need a sanity check to see if they are readily available and what price they are.

I do this as I'm sure that some years ago I pushed the price of a 5 quid record up by paying 30 for it on ebay

Edited August 17, 2012 by paultp

[Pete S]

Stolen from your House ?? -- That is awful !! Come along posing as potential buyers ??

How low can some people get !!

Yes literally, last one bought a bag with him, when we got downstairs after doing business he said he'd left his bag and went up to get it before I could say anything, came straight back down, when he left I went back up and a record he'd been after but wasn't for sale had gone. Still thinks I don't know and still attempts to speak to me.

This isn't the only example sadly. When I was living in St leonards someone came round and I could actually see the shape of the record under his jumper, I told him to put it down and f*ck off before I called the police, never seen or heard from him since that day.

[Tezza]

Yes literally, last one bought a bag with him, when we got downstairs after doing business he said he'd left his bag and went up to get it before I could say anything, came straight back down, when he left I went back up and a record he'd been after but wasn't for sale had gone. Still thinks I don't know and still attempts to speak to me.

This isn't the only example sadly. When I was living in St leonards someone came round and I could actually see the shape of the record under his jumper, I told him to put it down and f*ck off before I called the police, never seen or heard from him since that day.

That hurts matey !!

[Mal C]

lately I've seen allot of tracks on a certain thread on here, and the sales section obviously, and have gone straight to eBay to check, in all but one instance, the records were offered well over what you could pay for on just eBay, that's without searching around dealers sites.. that said I still buy allot from people on here...

Its plain to me that most people on here charge nearer the top end for their records, not surprising when allot of us have paid the 'Going Rate', but hey I'd never buy a record from John Manships auction, sorry John your way too expensive..but I do like to check what my records are going for generally, and when I come to sell them all off I will offer on here at healthy inflated prices... and round we go..

Mal.C.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Mal.C.

[Pete S]

Its plain to me that most people on here charge nearer the top end for their records,

Hey!

[Billy Jo Jim Bob]

lately I've seen allot of tracks on a certain thread on here, and the sales section obviously, and have gone straight to eBay to check, in all but one instance, the records were offered well over what you could pay for on just eBay, that's without searching around dealers sites.. that said I still buy allot from people on here...

Its plain to me that most people on here charge nearer the top end for their records, not surprising when allot of us have paid the 'Going Rate', but hey I'd never buy a record from John Manships auction, sorry John your way too expensive..but I do like to check what my records are going for generally, and when I come to sell them all off I will offer on here at healthy inflated prices... and round we go..

Mal.C.

When I sell records on here (which is not too often) I generally sell well below dealer 'book price'. People forget that a dealer has overheads (staff, premises, stock, cash flow etc) to account for as well as trying to make a profit. As collectors we dont really have that problem. As a general rule I look at the price guides, look at other sales lists and take a view from there. Usually as a general rule of thumb my sale price works out about 50 -60% of the 'book price'.

However I do agree that I look at the sales pages and say WTF when I see some of the prices asked, particularly for relatively common records. I dont comment on the sales post, but I sometimes wonder where they get the price from as they are somtimes top whack and then some.

[Dave Pinch]

Its plain to me that most people on here charge nearer the top end for their records, not surprising when allot of us have paid the 'Going Rate', but hey I'd never buy a record from John Manships auction, sorry John your way too expensive..but I do like to check what my records are going for generally, and when I come to sell them all off I will offer on here at healthy inflated prices... and round we go..

Mal.C

you obviously dont look at my sales then mal . mind you some of my sales from last week have been on here and facebook this week for more lol

Edited August 17, 2012 by dave pinch

[Chalky]

It works both ways. Many auction items from whichever auction can often be found cheaper with a dealer, not just JM but most dealers.

You also find auction items that sell for a pittance or less than the market value but a dealer will have it on offer at the full market value.

Auctions have never really been a true reflection of a records real value. Sales boxes, lists and dealer prices are a better reflection of a 45's worth, that is where more buying and selling is done.

[Mellorful]

I agree and was recently a winner by purchasing from Manship. Several weeks ago the Grapevine label Lester Tipton tune was available on Manship for £50, a similar record was available on ebay so I initially bid £35 and quickly was overtaken. Once it reached £50 on ebay I bought the Manship copy but watched other bidders continue in their quest and eventually it sold for £77.

Perhaps ebay bidders are unaware the main dealers and GEMM are sometimes better value.

[Chalky]

I agree and was recently a winner by purchasing from Manship. Several weeks ago the Grapevine label Lester Tipton tune was available on Manship for £50, a similar record was available on ebay so I initially bid £35 and quickly was overtaken. Once it reached £50 on ebay I bought the Manship copy but watched other bidders continue in their quest and eventually it sold for £77.

Perhaps ebay bidders are unaware the main dealers and GEMM are sometimes better value.

I find Gemm expensive simply because of the charges added by Gemm. I used to go direct to the Gemm seller. Many seem to be moving to Discogs as well these days.

[Pete S]

I agree and was recently a winner by purchasing from Manship. Several weeks ago the Grapevine label Lester Tipton tune was available on Manship for £50, a similar record was available on ebay so I initially bid £35 and quickly was overtaken. Once it reached £50 on ebay I bought the Manship copy but watched other bidders continue in their quest and eventually it sold for £77.

Perhaps ebay bidders are unaware the main dealers and GEMM are sometimes better value.

Anyone paying £77 for a Grapevine record needs their head testing.

[Quinvy]

It works both ways. Many auction items from whichever auction can often be found cheaper with a dealer, not just JM but most dealers.

You also find auction items that sell for a pittance or less than the market value but a dealer will have it on offer at the full market value.

Auctions have never really been a true reflection of a records real value. Sales boxes, lists and dealer prices are a better reflection of a 45's worth, that is where more buying and selling is done.

Can't agree with that...........eBay has to be the true value.

[boba]

Can't agree with that...........eBay has to be the true value.

what about records that sell for $10 and $100 on ebay in the same day? an average of ebay around a specific point in time excluding outliers is closer to a true value though.

[Chalky]

Can't agree with that...........eBay has to be the true value.

you only have to look at popsike to see the range in prices paid for some records, like Bob said sometimes on the same day. So many dealers and collectors alike have given up on ebay as well.

How many times do you see two lunatics trying to outbid each other for a particular record. If an auction was the only source and the records were one offs, bit like a painting then yeah I'd agree with you. But you only have to see what dealers price a particualr record, professional and part time dealers at that. The shop floor so to speak is the best indicator of a price.

[Guest drewid]

Can't agree with that...........eBay has to be the true value.

i agree to a point , something is worth what someones prepared to pay but what about proxy bidding on ebay?, re j manships i would like to know who these people are that pay astronomical amounts ,i remember years ago the ultimates goin for 600 n odd at xmas auction ,thought it must have been the booze ,that buyer must have been p**sed to pay that

[Guest Duncan Ball]

since ive been back collecting ive had wot ive consider to be good buys cashmeres 1300 and andy fisher for 600,but ive also over paid just to get that one record its the name of the game surely?

[boba]

i don't know what other people think but 1300 pounds for the cashmeres doesn't seem like a good deal

[Jhsoulnotts]

Seems to be a good time to buy at the minute, lots of choice, big swings in prices, if you do your research well most times you can get a bargain, great, great stuff nobody wants at 99p . But, it must be a real bad time to be a dealer

It's not just records, but most people just go straight to ebay now, so there is some really strange prices paid for stuff you can literally buy from "High Street" at half the price. Personally, ebay is fine for the stuff I buy (cheap!) but I wouldn't trust a big ticket record bought off ebay, it would have to come from one of the main dealers!

Edited August 19, 2012 by Jhsoulnotts

[Peter Richer]

since ive been back collecting ive had wot ive consider to be good buys cashmeres 1300 and andy fisher for 600,but ive also over paid just to get that one record its the name of the game surely?

i don't know what other people think but 1300 pounds for the cashmeres doesn't seem like a good deal

Ah, but that's not the point.

It doesn't matter whether other people think it's a good deal or not (although condition is crucial, and if Duncan's Cashmeres is mint then maybe not far off).

The point is this. If you were about to buy a record on auction for, say, £1,300, would you not first have a quick look at the top dealers' sites to see if there's one immediately available (allowing for condition), set sale, for less money?

Assuming you've not 'fallen out' with that dealer, it would surely be silly to pay more money than you need to.

Plus, as most people tend to regard JM as the 'Harrods' of northern soul dealers, wouldn't the price you see on his site indicate a top-end figure? Most other people selling identical items, set sale, would pitch them a little lower.

[Paul Shirley]

credit cards and longer time to pay ....simple as that

[Dazdakin]

Ok, lets wrap this up and simply say and ALL agree to this one rule when selling vinyl, whether a collector or an out and out dealer.

Manships 5th edition is what we will call the "book" price,

Take the price in the book eg: £100 subtract 35% giving a Soul Source members price of £65......IF the record is in mint condition,

if not subtract an extra 5% for every record grade scale less mint.

Most have or have access to the manship guild so from now on we all know exactly what we will now pay, not even a need to put prices next to the sales in future only the condition!!

God.....thank fuk for simplicity, now if we can all agree on this job's a good'un!!

Pig's where seen yesterday at Wellingboro' dayer don't you know?? sadly they was not flying.

More chance of being bitten by a Tulip than this ever happening me thinks.

Discuss.

[Peter Richer]

credit cards and longer time to pay ....simple as that

Not sure I understand what you're getting at here.

Last time I looked, all the top dealers took credit cards too. So why pay more on an e-bay auction than you'd need to, the same day, from a reliable dealer?

[Paul Shirley]

Not sure I understand what you're getting at here.

Last time I looked, all the top dealers took credit cards too. So why pay more on an e-bay auction than you'd need to, the same day, from a reliable dealer?

you would need to ask the people who bought the record ,

im sure there must be many reasons but im just pointing out the fact that lots of people buy records on credit cards and somtimes are willing to give a little more if they have got more time to pay .

not sure i understand the answer further up the page lol but never mind

Edited August 19, 2012 by steptoe

[Peter Richer]

nah they dont!!

In which case, I refer you to my original post which opened this thread!

[Guest]

Anyone paying £77 for a Grapevine record needs their head testing.

Anyone paying £77 for a Grapevine record needs their head testing.

and someone paying £50 doesn't ?

[davidwapples]

Ok, lets wrap this up and simply say and ALL agree to this one rule when selling vinyl, whether a collector or an out and out dealer.

Manships 5th edition is what we will call the "book" price,

Take the price in the book eg: £100 subtract 35% giving a Soul Source members price of £65......IF the record is in mint condition,

if not subtract an extra 5% for every record grade scale less mint.

but that is sort of how it should be , guide price includes vat so thats 20% off the total for a start if you buy from a non vat registered seller or pay cash at a soul night, and everyone says manship is too expensive so 10-15% less than his price isnt out of order

anything that is not as new unplayed type condition is not mint so should be less and all these extra +++++'s after grade are really irrelivent but if 2 wanna be djs with space on their credit card balance want a tune then the price guide rate goes out of the window

[Guest Duncan Ball]

i consider 1300 a good price in my opinion,when i say a copy for a grand over 10 years ago at the 100 club off butch! i would prefer to pay 50pence myself but that dosnt realy happen now does it?

[Guest Duncan Ball]

and if your going by book price both records quoted are well below book price and im happy,

[boba]

Ah, but that's not the point.

It doesn't matter whether other people think it's a good deal or not (although condition is crucial, and if Duncan's Cashmeres is mint then maybe not far off).

The point is this. If you were about to buy a record on auction for, say, £1,300, would you not first have a quick look at the top dealers' sites to see if there's one immediately available (allowing for condition), set sale, for less money?

Assuming you've not 'fallen out' with that dealer, it would surely be silly to pay more money than you need to.

Plus, as most people tend to regard JM as the 'Harrods' of northern soul dealers, wouldn't the price you see on his site indicate a top-end figure? Most other people selling identical items, set sale, would pitch them a little lower.

I agree with what you are saying. If you are going to spend top dollar on a 45, you probably should shop around first. The original post was about the difference between 100 pounds and 115 pounds though. Thanks.

[boba]

Ok, lets wrap this up and simply say and ALL agree to this one rule when selling vinyl, whether a collector or an out and out dealer.

Manships 5th edition is what we will call the "book" price,

Take the price in the book eg: £100 subtract 35% giving a Soul Source members price of £65......IF the record is in mint condition,

if not subtract an extra 5% for every record grade scale less mint.

Most have or have access to the manship guild so from now on we all know exactly what we will now pay, not even a need to put prices next to the sales in future only the condition!!

God.....thank fuk for simplicity, now if we can all agree on this job's a good'un!!

Pig's where seen yesterday at Wellingboro' dayer don't you know?? sadly they was not flying.

More chance of being bitten by a Tulip than this ever happening me thinks.

Discuss.

if someone agreed they would be agreeing that the book sets the price on records

[Guest Duncan Ball]

i dont like books i buy because i want

[Dazdakin]

if someone agreed they would be agreeing that the book sets the price on records

No, what i am sayin is if we all agree that auction prices like ebay and manships are well over the price you would pay someone cash at a nighter or wherever then what is the price of a record?? As a base reading for any value it needs to be black and white - manships price guild - agree on percentage of a general rule of thumb for ALL 45's sold through auctions - i guess around 35% on a mint 45 and there you go, true values in black and white.

If you want to pay more then that's up to any individual and most of us i guess have payed over the odds for a 45 just to get it.

It's all pie in the sky nonsense anyway as it's a buyers market and the rarity or not does not really have any bearing on a price paid.

[paultp]

The price of a record is what someone is willing to pay for it matching up with what someone is willing to sell it for, that's it.

You can offer records for "under book price" until the cows come home but if nobody wants to buy that record it doesn't matter what you price it at.

In the same way you can offer records for any old silly price if you don't want to sell them and then someone may still buy it.

There isn't any logic to buying and selling records so I don't see why people are trying to apply some.

[boba]

There isn't any logic to buying and selling records so I don't see why people are trying to apply some.

I think there's a whole field of study called "economics" that would disagree with you. However, I agree with your general point that there's no simple rule in pricing records. Also, this argument comes up all the time, it's the next "OVO" thread.

[Guest]

i consider 1300 a good price in my opinion,when i say a copy for a grand over 10 years ago at the 100 club off butch! i would prefer to pay 50pence myself but that dosnt realy happen now does it?

I am after a record at the moment. The guy didn't have it up for sale but when I enquired he said, "make me an offer." I've had a scout around and asked for a price in several places - the price I was quoted was between £100 & £175. Most came back nearer the £100 end but I made an offer of £150 in the hope of getting the record. Perhaps I could get it cheaper if I waited or put more enquiries out but I trust this seller and he has always been more than fair with me so think it only fair to offer what I think to be a 'reasonable' offer. Like you, I think what I am willing to pay is 'a good price imo' ... however, there are always going to be some that would label people like us "wanna be djs" (as has already found its way into this thread), irrelevant of the persons reason for buying it

[Peter Richer]

I am after a record at the moment. The guy didn't have it up for sale but when I enquired he said, "make me an offer." I've had a scout around and asked for a price in several places - the price I was quoted was between £100 & £175. Most came back nearer the £100 end but I made an offer of £150 in the hope of getting the record. Perhaps I could get it cheaper if I waited or put more enquiries out but I trust this seller and he has always been more than fair with me so think it only fair to offer what I think to be a 'reasonable' offer. Like you, I think what I am willing to pay is 'a good price imo' ... however, there are always going to be some that would label people like us "wanna be djs" (as has already found its way into this thread), irrelevant of the persons reason for buying it

And that all sounds perfectly reasonable.

However, bringing it back to the original point of the thread, would you still have made the £150 offer if the same record (in the same condition) was immediately available from a trusted and respected top-end dealer for, say, £125?

[Guest Seagrave]

I agree with what you are saying. If you are going to spend top dollar on a 45, you probably should shop around first. The original post was about the difference between 100 pounds and 115 pounds though. Thanks.

Sounded to me like the original post was about the principle of the thing, and that it is slightly odd/silly behaviour. The principle is the same isn't it, whatever the value?

[Pete S]

and someone paying £50 doesn't ?

I think if someone was desperate for a last title then £50 might be the limit.

Edited August 20, 2012 by Pete S

[Peter Richer]

I think if someone was desperate for a last title then £50 might be the limit.

You're probably right there.

Except (again bringing things back to the original point of this thread), it would still be madness if an identical copy was simultaneously available from JM, Pat Brady, or Anglo for £40.

[boba]

Sounded to me like the original post was about the principle of the thing, and that it is slightly odd/silly behaviour. The principle is the same isn't it, whatever the value?

no it isn't. it isn't worth my time shopping around and discovering and reading through all the different places and private lists to save $5 for example. Winston Churchill's prostitute joke, while amusing as a joke, is an oversimplified reality.

[Guest Seagrave]

no it isn't. it isn't worth my time shopping around and discovering and reading through all the different places and private lists to save $5 for example. Winston Churchill's prostitute joke, while amusing as a joke, is an oversimplified reality.

You've missed the point yet again. I think we're talking about a quick look at one or two of the biggest high quality northern soul sites - e.g. JM's - in order to get a top price benchmark. It's so quick and simple. Just a couple of taps on the keyboard.

How on Earth do you construe that as 'all the different places and private lists'?

The Americans eh? ... separated by a common language!

[boba]

You've missed the point yet again. I think we're talking about a quick look at one or two of the biggest high quality northern soul sites - e.g. JM's - in order to get a top price benchmark. It's so quick and simple. Just a couple of taps on the keyboard.

How on Earth do you construe that as 'all the different places and private lists'?

The Americans eh? ... separated by a common language!

Yeah, Americans are so stupid and can't read. I missed the post in the thread explicitly saying or even implying to only check the "biggest high quality northern sites", which one was that? As an aside, what is the "second biggest high quality one" after Manship? By the way, I look up any unknown thing on ebay on musicstack before bidding, it gives Manship's prices as well as many many more. How on earth did you get that you had to look at only "one or two of the biggest high quality northern sites"? Is it because you're British? Why on earth would I associate your reading it that way with your nationality vs. your personal reading skills, that wouldn't make any sense would it?