E. Rodney Jones: R&b Time On Charisma?

[Gene-r]

Casually searching Popsike for something else, and I came across this. Evidently sold on Ebay in June. Didn't know it was released on any other label than Tuff.

Anyone know anything about this issue? Legal? Re-issue? Bootleg, etc?

https://www.popsike.com/Chicago-Soul-E-Rodney-Jones-RB-Time-Pts-1-2-on-Charisma-418-Chicago-WVON-DJ/251090860908.html

[Ian Dewhirst]

You learn something new everyday........never seen one before.......

Ian D

[Dave Moore]

I have one - I've only ever seen three others.

It's made from the same stamper as the Tuff release but I think it came after.

Regards,

Dave

.

[Robbk]

Maybe it's a legitimate re-issue done a few years later by Abner Spector (1968 or 1969?). They correctly credited Winlyn Music. Or maybe Tuff and Spector lost the rights (If it was an original Chicago project, funded by a Chicagoan, but leased to Tuff). However, the odds of that being the case are not great, as New York's Richard Tee arranged the songs, meaning that it is likely that AT LEAST the background tracks were recorded in New York. Perhaps Jones wrote the songs in Chicago, and maybe even recorded his vocals there (though my guess is that he went to New York to do that). The fact that Spector got 100% of the publishing rights leads me to believe that he MAY have retained rights to press the record. On the other hand, The listing of Karo-Dishi productions could represent E. Rodney Jones and his producer.

Edited August 8, 2012 by RobbK

[Guest]

This has been known about for a few decades at least, but has remained very tough...I think Manship auctioned one a year or so ago as well.

Reminds me of an old page deep in my website, which lists out local/national labels for some releases:

https://capitolsoulclub.homestead.com/localnationallabellisting.html

[boba]

I won the one that was on ebay, I never saw it before. It's 400 pounds in the manship guide.

[Dave Moore]

Mine's a minter. Cost me a lot more than yours Bob's so well done Matey.

Regards,

Dave

[boba]

oh yeah? well mine arrived and it was mint++

I think items like this are funny because people always assume that rarity means it's some weird early promo press or something, when it could be a random later bootleg pressed in limited amounts.

[Platters 81]

when dancing to this you should of course do the Madison

[Robbk]

oh yeah? well mine arrived and it was mint++

I think items like this are funny because people always assume that rarity means it's some weird early promo press or something, when it could be a random later bootleg pressed in limited amounts.

So.... Do we know what this was? Was it the original, local, Chicago label? Or was it a pressing done later, by the rights-holder (Jones & partner), after Tuff's rights lapsed? Or was it Abner Spector re-releasing it, after Tuff stopped operations? I suspect it was a legitimate issue, rather than a bootleg, as the original stampers were used, and the label font, (other than the record company name) was the same. If it WAS a later issue, I think it likely wasn't more than a few years after the original (as the pressing plant and printer seem to have been the same, based on the look of the label and vinyl).

[KevH]

For £400 or more,i hope its a legit re-issue, at least.

[The Yank]

Maybe it's a legitimate re-issue done a few years later by Abner Spector (1968 or 1969?). They correctly credited Winlyn Music. Or maybe Tuff and Spector lost the rights (If it was an original Chicago project, funded by a Chicagoan, but leased to Tuff). However, the odds of that being the case are not great, as New York's Richard Tee arranged the songs, meaning that it is likely that AT LEAST the background tracks were recorded in New York. Perhaps Jones wrote the songs in Chicago, and maybe even recorded his vocals there (though my guess is that he went to New York to do that). The fact that Spector got 100% of the publishing rights leads me to believe that he MAY have retained rights to press the record. On the other hand, The listing of Karo-Dishi productions could represent E. Rodney Jones and his producer.

This is really just Rodney talking over the instrumental track of Bobby Treetop's "Wait Til I Get To Know Ya" which is why the

tracks were from N.Y.C.

[KevH]

While you USA guys are on here,what's the info on Ken Williams & Babysitters - "Get to know ya" on Spectator.? Demo version of Bobby Treetop? (So connected to ERJones. - RnB time.).

[Ian Dewhirst]

If it was a later pressing I'm pretty sure that more copies would have found their way to the UK where demand for the record was quite high at the time. I do remember Tuff originals being on Soul Bowl lists in the mid 70's for a couple of quid or thereabouts, so presumably there were plenty of originals to soak up demand.

Out of curiosity, which came first Bobby Treetop or E. Rodney?

And whatever happened to Bobby Treetop? I LOVE his vocals but after the two records on Tuff then what? Anyone know?

Ian D

[Neckender]

The Charisma 45 first popped up on a Soul Bowl list around 1975 for £5. Since that was nearly half a weekly wage, we set about looking for it at a lower price.

A few years later tim Ash found a copy and I got my copy in the late 8ts. The vinyl and matrix of the Charisma copy are identical to the Tuff release.

[Tony Smith]

Rob Marriott also had one back in the 8ts too (First copy I saw)

[Ian Dewhirst]

Mmm. Interesting. I guess it all boils down to which came first then?

Were those Charisma copies pressed for UK demand or was the Charisma pressing before the Tuff deal?

Maybe E. Rodney Jones knew he had a killer track so went ahead and pressed a few copies in order to sell it on. He had enough clout to launch a record for sure. Maybe he did that and then Tuff bought the record and destroyed the rest of the Charisma copies?

I'm presuming from all this, that "RnB Time" was first and then Bobby Treetop cut a vocal which was probably an obvious move if "RnB Time" was getting hammered on Chicago radio.

Whatever, it's always been a major record for me. My biggest 2 wants at the time were Bobby Treetop and Duke Browner and I got 'em both in quick succession. I love 'em both as much now as the day that I bought 'em. You can't say that about many records can you?

Ian D

[Garethx]

Pressed at one of the Chess factories by the look of the typefaces for artist / title / credits. Chess manufactured and distributed Tuff records at this point. If it has a TM scratched in the runout it means it was mastered at Chesses' Ter-Mar Studios.

E. Rodney Jones was employed at WVON at the time, a radio station owned by the Chess brothers. Maybe they pressed a small run of this for Jones to hand out as a promotional tool, with the label name being a reference to his on-air style.

[bri pinch]

just lookin at the typeface somehow makes me think it's a few years after the very rare tuff first issue

[Robbk]

Mmm. Interesting. I guess it all boils down to which came first then?

Were those Charisma copies pressed for UK demand or was the Charisma pressing before the Tuff deal?

Maybe E. Rodney Jones knew he had a killer track so went ahead and pressed a few copies in order to sell it on. He had enough clout to launch a record for sure. Maybe he did that and then Tuff bought the record and destroyed the rest of the Charisma copies?

I'm presuming from all this, that "RnB Time" was first and then Bobby Treetop cut a vocal which was probably an obvious move if "RnB Time" was getting hammered on Chicago radio.

Whatever, it's always been a major record for me. My biggest 2 wants at the time were Bobby Treetop and Duke Browner and I got 'em both in quick succession. I love 'em both as much now as the day that I bought 'em. You can't say that about many records can you?

Ian D

I really doubt that Abner Spector would "steal' a track he had made in a deal with Chess or a WVON employee, and then use it to try to get a hit with a vocal Soul song version on his own artist. It seems more reasonable that Jones was looking for a "hot" track to use as backing for his cut, and he heard the Bobby Treetop record and picked that track. Then, because Tuff had had a relationship with Chess through its distribution, and WVON was owned by The owners of Chess Records, he got The Chess Brothers to contact Spector to use that Tuff-owned track, and, in the process, record, press and release Jones' record.

Also, from the look of the Charisma pressing, it appears to have been pressed by Chess, within a few years of the Tuff pressing. The main font is the same (limiting its possibilities to no more than a few years after the Tuff release. But the font of the word "Charisma" didn't exist on records from that plant until 1966 or. more likely, 1967. So, I'd guess that The Charisma pressing is a legitimate re-issue by Chess, in 1967 or1968, AFTER Tuff was out of business (either as a favour to Rodney, or because of "oldies" sales demand). I don't think there is ANY chance that it is a bootleg.

[Robbk]

The E. Rodney Jones release on Tuff 418 was the very next issue after Bobby Treetop's 417. They were released at nearly the same time, a few months after Treetop's first issue on Tuff 415 (mainly due to a re-issue of Treetop's, removing his version of "R& B Time on the "B" side. I don't have it, just 417. But, I assume that it was just the instrumental track. Maybe Jones was playing the Bobby Treetop record on his show on WVON (I seem to remember that it WAS on his playlist), and he turned it over and liked that instrumental. So, he thought he could use that "rockin' instrumental" as a backing track for himself for use as a "theme song" radio "calling card", for better recognition from his public. Knowing that his bosses at WVON owned Chess Records, and that Chess had a distribution relationship with Spector's Tuff Records, he asked them to contact Spector to ask his permission to use "R & B Time" as a background for Jones' record, and used as the carrot (bait), that Spector could "produce" Jones' record, and release it on Tuff (rather than releasing it on Chess). This all seems much more reasonable now.

The "R & B Time" instrumental on the "B" side of Bobby Treetop's first Tuff issue (Tuff 415) was replaced by the vocal, "Valentine" on 417. Maybe that move to 417 and a new, vocal B side, was to avoid having Bobby Treetop's version of "R & B Time" compete with E. Rodney Jones' new version?

[purist]

info already posted in RobbK's post

Edited August 9, 2012 by purist

[Garethx]

Regarding the typeface for the word "Charisma": that would have been around at least since before WWII as a commercially available font, so trying to date the release by this method is an inexact science.

Chess owned the Midwest pressing plant and possibly even the printshops / typesetters who produced the artwork for this release. The fact that the typesetters used a face not normally utilised on other Chess product for the 'Charisma logo' was probably to emphasise the 'one-off' nature of the release. I'm leaning towards the theory it was a vanity / favour project for Jones, much like the 'Bunky' release of Nolan Chance discussed in detail months ago.

Spector (the owner of Tuff) had a relationship with Chess as A&R head of Argo (their Jazz label) before it became known as Cadet. It was where he met saxophonist Benny Golson, who gets the arranger credit on the various Bobby Treetop uses of the backing track.

[The Yank]

Here's a pic of Mr. Jones

If you click on the picture, you'll get a better view of E. Rodney .

Edited August 9, 2012 by the yank

[boba]

A few things:

1. R&B time was a hit in Chicago. E Rodney Jones himself probably played it a lot. It is much more common to find R&B time in Chicago than Bobby Treetop. DJ rapping over instrumental records were big at the time (and not just in Chicago). Lucky Cordell had a bunch of them. Herb Kent did a similar thing to E Rodney Jones -- the Jackie and Tut record that originally came out on the Dawn label (Jackie Edwards and Emmett "Tut" Sutton btw) had their vocals stripped for the chess release and Herb Kent rapped over that. Butterball Crane had one too. Probably at least one more Chicago DJ had a "rap" record.

2. This record could have been a second press to get into other people's hands who wanted a copy. It could have been some of the other things suggested by other people in this thread. However, I seriously doubt it was pressed to satisfy UK demand.

3. E Rodney Jones spent most of his career at WVON. By 1970 he was program director and was for a long time.

[Sean Hampsey]

3. E Rodney Jones spent most of his career at WVON. By 1970 he was program director and was for a long time.

I have some of his old 60's WVON shows on Reel to Reel.

Some DJ!

Sean

[Amsterdam Russ]

Just to add to the info...

* E. Rodney Jones was an influential DJ in St Louis during the 1950s and whilst there was the first to break Sam Cooke's career-making 'You Send Me'. The original A side was 'Summertime', but it wasn't until Jones flipped it that others started to take note.

* He was the first to give Aretha Franklin the epithet of 'Queen of Soul' - this was prior to her appearing on the cover of Time magazine with those words emblazoned across the page.

* He was regular MC at the music shows held at Chicago's Regal Theatre.

* When Stax was in financial and legal trouble during the 70s, Jones set up a legal defence fund for friend Al Bell. Jones proclaimed the fund would raise $100,000, but in fact fell $92,500 short!

[Ian Dewhirst]

The E. Rodney Jones release on Tuff 418 was the very next issue after Bobby Treetop's 417. They were released at nearly the same time, a few months after Treetop's first issue on Tuff 415 (mainly due to a re-issue of Treetop's, removing his version of "R& B Time on the "B" side. I don't have it, just 417. But, I assume that it was just the instrumental track. Maybe Jones was playing the Bobby Treetop record on his show on WVON (I seem to remember that it WAS on his playlist), and he turned it over and liked that instrumental. So, he thought he could use that "rockin' instrumental" as a backing track for himself for use as a "theme song" radio "calling card", for better recognition from his public. Knowing that his bosses at WVON owned Chess Records, and that Chess had a distribution relationship with Spector's Tuff Records, he asked them to contact Spector to ask his permission to use "R & B Time" as a background for Jones' record, and used as the carrot (bait), that Spector could "produce" Jones' record, and release it on Tuff (rather than releasing it on Chess). This all seems much more reasonable now.

The "R & B Time" instrumental on the "B" side of Bobby Treetop's first Tuff issue (Tuff 415) was replaced by the vocal, "Valentine" on 417. Maybe that move to 417 and a new, vocal B side, was to avoid having Bobby Treetop's version of "R & B Time" compete with E. Rodney Jones' new version?

That all makes perfect sense to me.

Did Bobby Treetop ever record anything other than the Tuff sides?

Ian D

Edited August 10, 2012 by Ian Dewhirst

[Tony Smith]

The E. Rodney Jones release on Tuff 418 was the very next issue after Bobby Treetop's 417. They were released at nearly the same time, a few months after Treetop's first issue on Tuff 415 (mainly due to a re-issue of Treetop's, removing his version of "R& B Time on the "B" side. I don't have it, just 417. But, I assume that it was just the instrumental track. Maybe Jones was playing the Bobby Treetop record on his show on WVON (I seem to remember that it WAS on his playlist), and he turned it over and liked that instrumental. So, he thought he could use that "rockin' instrumental" as a backing track for himself for use as a "theme song" radio "calling card", for better recognition from his public. Knowing that his bosses at WVON owned Chess Records, and that Chess had a distribution relationship with Spector's Tuff Records, he asked them to contact Spector to ask his permission to use "R & B Time" as a background for Jones' record, and used as the carrot (bait), that Spector could "produce" Jones' record, and release it on Tuff (rather than releasing it on Chess). This all seems much more reasonable now.

The "R & B Time" instrumental on the "B" side of Bobby Treetop's first Tuff issue (Tuff 415) was replaced by the vocal, "Valentine" on 417. Maybe that move to 417 and a new, vocal B side, was to avoid having Bobby Treetop's version of "R & B Time" compete with E. Rodney Jones' new version?

I have #415 it has "Valentine" as the flip

[Robbk]

I don't have 415 (just 417). I was only going by Flynny's discography. That lists "R & B Time" as the "B side" of Bobby Treetop's Tuff 415 release. Maybe it was changed to the vocal on a 2nd press run of 415, before they moved it over to a new catalogue number of 417? I guess stranger things have happened in the record business.

[Robbk]

I have #415 it has "Valentine" as the flip. Quit twisting my melon¢Å¾¢

I don't have Tuff 415 (only 417). I was merely quoting the Tuff discography on Soulfulkindamusic.com, where Tuff 415 by Bobby Treetop has "R & B Time" listed as its "B side". Maybe "Valentine" replaced "R & B Time" on a 2nd press run of 415, BEFORE Spector decided to re-issue it with "Valentine" on the B side on 417? I suppose stranger things have happened in The Music business. In any case, I'm not trying to snow others here with "fabricated information" to come off as an "authority", I'm just another collector interested to learn what really happened when the music was being made.

[Robbk]

Sorry. I got this wrong. Here is an excerpt from Soulfulkindamusic's Tuff Records discography, covering issues from 415-417:

Tuff 415 - Bobby Treetop -So Sweet, So Satisfying / R & B Time - 1965

Tuff 416 - Ronnie Savoy - Pitfall / On The Spanish Side - 1965

Tuff 417 - Bobby Treetop - Wait Till I Get To Know Ya / R & B Time - 1965

Tuff 417 - Bobby Treetop - Wait Till I Get To Know Ya / Valentine - 1965

As we can see, Spector first replaced Treetop's "A side", "So Sweet, So Satisfying" with "Wait Till...." in the move from 415 to 417. THEN, apparently after deciding to issue "R & B Time" by Jones, and not wanting the two versions of that latter song competing with each other, he ran a 2nd press run of Treetop's 417, replacing the instrumental "R & B Time" with Treetop's vocal "Valentine". This makes much more sense.

[Pete S]

Sorry. I got this wrong. Here is an excerpt from Soulfulkindamusic's Tuff Records discography, covering issues from 415-417:

Tuff 415 - Bobby Treetop -So Sweet, So Satisfying / R & B Time - 1965

Tuff 416 - Ronnie Savoy - Pitfall / On The Spanish Side - 1965

Tuff 417 - Bobby Treetop - Wait Till I Get To Know Ya / R & B Time - 1965

Tuff 417 - Bobby Treetop - Wait Till I Get To Know Ya / Valentine - 1965

As we can see, Spector first replaced Treetop's "A side", "So Sweet, So Satisfying" with "Wait Till...." in the move from 415 to 417. THEN, apparently after deciding to issue "R & B Time" by Jones, and not wanting the two versions of that latter song competing with each other, he ran a 2nd press run of Treetop's 417, replacing the instrumental "R & B Time" with Treetop's vocal "Valentine". This makes much more sense.

Robb I may be wrong but I think both those R & B Time releases are the instrumental backing track.

[Ian Dewhirst]

Still can't find out much about Bobby Treetop. Who was he?

Also I never realised that the song was recorded in New York either. Arranged by Benny Golsen too, so a Jazz veteran doing an out and out Northern Soul tune. Makes me wanna hear what else Benny arranged around that time!

I actually met the writer in the mid 70's I think when I worked at Decca and we had a mini-hit with a dreadful song called "You're Fabulous Babe" which was on a perfume ad at the time. I never knew if this guy was the same Ken Williams as the writer of "Wait Til I Get To Know Ya", Help Me (Get Myself Back Together Again)", "Come Back" etc, etc and I never got to ask him, otherwise I would have a better idea of who this Bobby Treetop guy was. He's got a decent publishing website which lists his songs....

https://www.adishatunes.com/4.html

Interesting history to this record ay?

Ian D

[KevH]

On one website there's a claim he may be related to Tommy Bush and Phil Flowers.?

[Garethx]

Is there another use of the "Peace Of Mind" backing track by any other release?

[Robbk]

Robb I may be wrong but I think both those R & B Time releases are the instrumental backing track.

I am almost positive that you are correct.

[boba]

Is there another use of the "Peace Of Mind" backing track by any other release?

it definitely sounds like a track that was used for a real vocal production. I just listened to a bunch of mamie galore records and didn't hear the track. Probably something higgins was involved with (which obviously is a lot).

[Tony Smith]

After several conversations with several different collectors from several points of the compass and age ranges and not ONE has ever seen any Bobby Treetop 45 with "R n B Time" on the flip.

So can anyone prove otherwise?

[Rich B]

I had a (moderately) interesting story about this record and Rob Marriot, but was overwhelmed by the knowledge shown by other members of this forum, so it's back to the wine for me!

[Robbk]

It seems likely that "R & B Time" being "placed" on the "B" Side of Tuff 416 and 417 on Soulfulkindamusic's discography may well be an error due to a misunderstanding in passing along information. I think that had it existed, probably one of us would remember having seen it. But, I'm guessing that the confusion was caused the the instrumental on E. Rodney Jones' "R & B Time" having also been the track on Bobby Treetop's "Wait Till....". That being the case, I find it hard to believe that that error wasn't spawned from a situation more tangible than that. otherwise where does the "B" side come in? I wonder if the original pressing of Tuff 417 ("Wait Till...") might have had the instrumental on the flip, but with the same title as the vocal (rather than "R & B Time". Spector did toss a couple instrumental tracks of the vocal side onto a few Tuff records ("Sally Go Round The Roses" being the most memorable). I can't really say that I haven't seen such a record. I wouldn't have paid much attention to it, if I had seen one AFTER buying my copy of 417 with "Valentine" on the flip. as I don't care that much about having instrumental tracks that I already own on a vocal/instrumental recording. I can'tt say that I remember seeing one with an instrumental B side. But I can't rule it out. I CAN definitely say that I have NEVER seen a Bobby Treetop with a flip titled "R & B Time".

[Sebastian]

The reissue (bootleg?) of TUFF 417 has got "R&B Time" on the flipside.

I have no idea whether it's the actual instrumental of "WTIGTKY" or if it's the E. Rodney Jones vocal that is included though.

That's perhaps where the confusion comes from?

Edited August 12, 2012 by Sebastian

[Robbk]

Yes, that sounds reasonable, that it may have come off the boot, from someone who didn't know it was a boot, but thought it was a first pressing. Then there is the problem of Tuff 415 and 417, and E. Rodney Jones using the track for "R & B Time". So, it might have been concluded, erroneously, that the change from 415 to 417 was to get the instrumental track off Treetop's release, in order to avoid having it compete with Jones' release (which wasn't an issue at all). Thus, the mixup on info on Soulfulkindamusic's listing for Tuff 415 (which actually had "Valentine" on the flip.

[Sebastian]

Yes, that sounds reasonable, that it may have come off the boot, from someone who didn't know it was a boot, but thought it was a first pressing. Then there is the problem of Tuff 415 and 417, and E. Rodney Jones using the track for "R & B Time". So, it might have been concluded, erroneously, that the change from 415 to 417 was to get the instrumental track off Treetop's release, in order to avoid having it compete with Jones' release (which wasn't an issue at all). Thus, the mixup on info on Soulfulkindamusic's listing for Tuff 415 (which actually had "Valentine" on the flip.

So I guess it looks like the below two are the only variations:

Tuff 415 - Bobby Treetop - So Sweet, So Satisfying / Valentine - 1965

Tuff 417 - Bobby Treetop - Wait Till I Get To Know Ya / Valentine - 1965

"R&B Time" or any kind of instrumental was never included as the b-side on the official releases of either of those 45s.

[Amsterdam Russ]

The reissue (bootleg?) of TUFF 417 has got "R&B Time" on the flipside.

I have no idea whether it's the actual instrumental of "WTIGTKY" or if it's the E. Rodney Jones vocal that is included though.

That's perhaps where the confusion comes from?

I have that boot - it is the instrumental.

[KevH]

I had a (moderately) interesting story about this record and Rob Marriot, but was overwhelmed by the knowledge shown by other members of this forum, so it's back to the wine for me!

Well i'd like to hear it Rich.

[Guest]

E. Rodney Jones R&B Time

Am I correct in thinking the BLACK lettering is first issue on Tuff and then re-issued with BROWN lettering for the logo ?

I have the black lettering and have always believed the above to be true?????

[Guest]

with the depth this topic went into I thought the previous post would have been of some interest..... I thought it to be relevant to the discussion .... but obviously not

Edited August 14, 2012 by mikecook

[boba]

with the depth this topic went into I thought the previous post would have been of some interest..... I thought it to be relevant to the discussion .... but obviously not

Is it really upsetting that someone didn't know the answer to what text color was first? I don't know.

Bobby Treetop seems like an obvious fake name. I was wondering if he was the same person as bobby copney. I listened back to back a bunch of times and can't confirm or deny, it's not obviously the same or obviously different to me. Also, I was wondering if it was a Chicago thing with the Benny Golson (Philly) arrangement on one side but Lew Douglas arranged the other and he was a Chicago person. It's probably out of Chicago. I've never seen a Benny Golson arrangement on anything I think, much less a Chicago record.

Anyone have any opinion as to whether Bobby Treetop sounds like Bobby Copney?

[Robbk]

Is it really upsetting that someone didn't know the answer to what text color was first? I don't know.

Bobby Treetop seems like an obvious fake name. I was wondering if he was the same person as bobby copney. I listened back to back a bunch of times and can't confirm or deny, it's not obviously the same or obviously different to me. Also, I was wondering if it was a Chicago thing with the Benny Golson (Philly) arrangement on one side but Lew Douglas arranged the other and he was a Chicago person. It's probably out of Chicago. I've never seen a Benny Golson arrangement on anything I think, much less a Chicago record.

Anyone have any opinion as to whether Bobby Treetop sounds like Bobby Copney?

I had the same idea as you. And I came to the same conclusion. I think they may not be the same person, but the voices were close enough to not rule it out, completely. Like so many here, I'm sure "Treetop" is not his real name. And I wondered, too, if he could really have just recorded those 3 songs. I really doubt it. I would bet the farm that he recorded under at least one more name. My first guess would be that he's from The East. But, with Spector and Golsons's connections to Chess, and E. Rodney Jones recording for Tuff, I guess it's very possible he was a Chicago artist. But, I don't recognise his voice as familiar.