Help Dating A 45

[boba]

Hi. I recently got a 45 by a group called the Jaguars on the Sharp label. Pretty sure it was pressed in california, by the look of the label. Apparently it was a previously unknown record by a doowop group called the Jaguars. it's definitely soul, there's a decent northern side actually. My friend asked marv goldberg who interviewed the group and he said it was from 1960. I'm sure it's a little later though.

scratched in the deadwax, in addition to the label and catalog number, is a delta symbol, followed by 54704 (other side has 54704X). Is this something that can date the record and if so, any idea what the date of the pressing is? I pulled out another similar looking record and it had a similar looking delta sign with an earlier number (and the other record was definitely soul). Thanks in advance for any help.

[Guest john s]

https://www.anorakscorner.com/PressingPlantInfo.html

Looks like Oct/Nov 1964....

[Benji]

John S is spot on. If it's a Monarch press (delta symbol denotes it) your record was pressed in oct 1964

[boba]

https://www.anoraksco...gPlantInfo.html

Looks like Oct/Nov 1964....

Thanks so much for your help! However, I'm still confused about this record and where it was pressed. I'm pretty sure it was a west coast pressing (e.g. based on the label) but the deadwax does not have a Monarch MR or an Alco ALC. It just has SR-100-A and SR-100-B (SR clearly stands for Sharp Records) as well as the delta info scratched above. no other symbols, marks, or anything. Were there more west coast plants that used delta numbers? Could it be a monarch press without the MR?

[boba]

John S is spot on. If it's a Monarch press (delta symbol denotes it) your record was pressed in oct 1964

It doesn't inherently denote it based on the text of the page:

A delta sign in the dead wax does not always lead to Monarch, as other mastering/metalwork producers shared the delta system -i.e. ALCO did the metalwork for Dor, but AFM Engineering (vinyl), an associated company, did the pressing. Sometimes, as in the case of Monarch (styrene0, a company did both. Alco mastered discs have a machine stamped logo with stylised A, L and C all within a Circle (O).

additionally, there is no monarch MR. I don't know anything about this so I'm just relying on that page and any input from the forum so any help is appreciated.

[boba]

apparently that quoted sentence fragment is actually on the page...

[boba]

Also, by "shared the delta system" does that mean that even if it wasn't pressed at monarch I can still use the same dating table if there's a delta sign?

Edited July 25, 2012 by boba

[Kris Holmes]

bro, dating records? i know we love records as much as anyone but that seems like a pretty one sided affair......

anyways, yeah, as long as it has a delta number you can work out the month/year, as people have mentioned stuff was plated by monarch & then pressed at other plants depending on demand/busy-ness so it still probably won't be all that far off the mark. also it is more common for monarch to not have the "MR" if it is a vinyl press. but i'm not 100% sure how one would identify a 45 being pressed at monarch if it is vinyl with a delta number but no MR stamp.

[boba]

Thanks, everyone, you guys are so awesome!

[Robbk]

I agree with all stated above. We can't be sure that it was actually pressed at Monarch. But, with the Delta sign , AND with a number of 54,700+, it was most likely pressed in Oct. '64, whether or not it was pressed at Monarch.

!964 sounds right for that record. The Jaguars that had sung vocal group harmony (sometimes called "DooWop" on L.A.'s R-Dell label (and had the big hit with "The Way You Look Tonight", were still around (although with a member change or two. I have several records by them on small, L.A. labels (including a few on Original Sound, and Downey. But, all mine skirt around (before and after 1964). The group was big in East L.A. and San Gabriel Valley all throughout. So, I figured that would have had at least one or two out in 1964. I don't know that, patrticular Sharp label. But, it must have been located in the L.A. Metro Area. What are the names on it? I'm curious to know who they were working with in 1964.

[Robbk]

The Jaguars, after leaving R-Dell, had releases on Original Sound in 1960-62, on Rendesvous Records in 1961 and 1963. And they had a release on a navy blue L.A. label, and were on at least one other small L.A. label in 1966 (I forget which). So, now I know who they were with in 1964.

Edited July 26, 2012 by RobbK

[Platters 81]

one thing about the delta matrix is that ive a couple of 70ts rereleases that retained their 60ts delta matrix....Arthur Alexander on Dot....and "Hey Boy"on Dionn.......cant remember the artist

[Robbk]

one thing about the delta matrix is that ive a couple of 70ts rereleases that retained their 60ts delta matrix....Arthur Alexander on Dot....and "Hey Boy"on Dionn.......cant remember the artist

Brenda & Tabulations

[Platters 81]

Thats the one..the AA has the later Dot label design and couples Anna with You Better Move On...B+T is plain orange .."dionn" is in lower case ....i havent got Bill Lucas but i believe the reissue of that is similar

[Ady Croasdell]

I agree with all stated above. We can't be sure that it was actually pressed at Monarch. But, with the Delta sign , AND with a number of 54,700+, it was most likely pressed in Oct. '64, whether or not it was pressed at Monarch.

!964 sounds right for that record. The Jaguars that had sung vocal group harmony (sometimes called "DooWop" on L.A.'s R-Dell label (and had the big hit with "The Way You Look Tonight", were still around (although with a member change or two. I have several records by them on small, L.A. labels (including a few on Original Sound, and Downey. But, all mine skirt around (before and after 1964). The group was big in East L.A. and San Gabriel Valley all throughout. So, I figured that would have had at least one or two out in 1964. I don't know that, patrticular Sharp label. But, it must have been located in the L.A. Metro Area. What are the names on it? I'm curious to know who they were working with in 1964.

Hi Robb,

What was the Downey release? I've got no record of it.

Cheers

Ady

[boba]

Hi Robb,

What was the Downey release? I've got no record of it.

Cheers

Ady

I don't think there was a jaguars on downey

[Robbk]

I looked up the Downey Records' discography, and every catalogue number was accounted for (except 113-omitted for it's #13 ending and too early ('63). It must have been another, smaller L.A. label with that same blue colouring.

[George G]

I would like to date a 39-28-45

There are many recorded bands called the Jaguars as you all probably know. The one most likely to be confused with the group under discussion here were from the Bay Area and had a 45 on Dot originally released on a local label with a pic sleeve (band wearing animal pattern print outfits!). I don't remember if the local label was blue or some other color, I do think it was a Monarch related pressing.

[MrsWoodsrules]

Don't know if it's any help to you Bob but they released a track called The Metropolitan on Alco 1006.

Aid.

[George G]

Don't know if it's any help to you Bob but they released a track called The Metropolitan on Alco 1006.

Aid.

Different Jaguars.....2000 miles east.

[Dobber]

i tried to date a record but it said i was possesive and f**ked off with an lp

[Platters 81]

there is a Jaguars 45 on Faro which sounds interesting...released around the time of the Enchantments ...anybody know what its like...i havent looked on u tube..

[Platters 81]

found it ........unfortunately the A side..is a late surf type instrumental

[Kris Holmes]

there is a killer surf 45 by a different The Jaguars on Epic which Jazzman just reissued.

[George G]

there is a killer surf 45 by a different The Jaguars on Epic which Jazzman just reissued.

This is the Charlie Daniels Jaguars. I dunno if Daniels is known in the UK but he became popular in the US playing country-rock. They had 2 or 3 45s on Epic and recorded on other labels.

Edited July 27, 2012 by George G

[Kris Holmes]

This is the Charlie Daniels Jaguars. I dunno if Daniels is known in the UK but he became popular in the US playing country-rock. They had 2 or 3 45s on Epic and recorded on other labels.

whoa, did not know the Charlie Daniels Band connection, mind=blown, thanks.

[Robbk]

there is a Jaguars 45 on Faro which sounds interesting...released around the time of the Enchantments ...anybody know what its like...i havent looked on u tube..

The hit side was a ballad. I assume that you know that this Jaguars group was a different group from The Jaguars on R-Dell. The Faro group was all Chicanos from East L.A. There's some confusion among some fans, because the R-Dell Jaguars had one Chicano member ( the rest were African-Americans), but they were EXTREMELY popular among The Chicanos of East L.A. due to lots of plugging by Art Laboe and Huggy Boy. The Faro group members were about 10 years younger.

[boba]

There's also this group called the Jaggerz, I think they're the same group probably.

Not.

[Roburt]

The Jaggerz were of course involved with Gamble / Huff pre Philly Int. days ....

the group kept going & were doing gigs in Pittsburgh in the mid 70's ........

[boba]

the jaggerz were from western PA, along with groups like the Bell Boys (the group on the ohio jamar label), El Pooks, etc.

[Roburt]

The group the Jaguars were on the bill for a show at the Embassy Room in Baltimore on Nov 28th 1968 ....

... along with the likes of the Hesitations, Frankie Karl, the Esquires and Masked Man & the Agents.

Which 'version' of the group would this have been ??

Edited July 28, 2012 by Roburt

[Robbk]

Marv Goldberg lists the Aardell/R-Dell group's last recording session before a 1989 "revival session" as that done for Rendesvous Records in 1961. And the 1962 release on Original Sound was a re-release of 1960 session work done for Original Sound (re-recordings of previously unreleased cuts they made for R-Dell in the later mid '50s. Their 1963 Rendesvous record was a re-release of their 1961 record. In 1960, they had recorded "Green Stamps" as The T-Birds on T-Bird Records, picked up nationally bey Chess. Then, in late 1961,after te Rendesvous session and some months of sales of that record, they seem to have broken up. Manny Chavez and another member had a few records out as a duet. So, it seems as though the 1965 L.A. record I have on the blue label must be either the Chicano group (I rather don't think so, as they sound like a Black group and not like the Faro group), or a completely different group.

Therefore, I conclude that the group at your 1968 event must have been the Faro group. They were the only Jaguars at that time with enough national recognition to be on such a roster.

[George G]

I'd guess the group listed in the 1968 Balto show is most likely to be the Charlie Daniels band - or a completely different non recorded output. They were based in that area and played a rock/soul mix sound (despite what CD turned out to be later). They had a fair amount in common with the Bad Boys on Paula (and Jewel under a different name). The Jaguars on Faro is from 1962?

Edited July 29, 2012 by George G

[Robbk]

I'd guess the group listed in the 1968 Balto show is most likely to be the Charlie Daniels band - or a completely different non recorded output. They were based in that area and played a rock/soul mix sound (despite what CD turned out to be later). They had a fair amount in common with the Bad Boys on Paula (and Jewel under a different name). The Jaguars on Faro is from 1962?

I don't remember The Jaguars being on Faro before 1965. They would have been pretty young in 1962. Global Dog's discography shows their first in 1965.

[Robbk]

Soulful Kinda Music has The Jaguars' first on Faro in 1965, as well. BOTH list NO releases by Faro in 1962 (apparently they shut down operations for 1962-63, and started again in 1964.

[Robbk]

Bob, I'm very curious about that Sharp Records label. Could you please list the music publishing company (ies) any producer/arranger credits, songwriters' names, etc.?