Was just thinking, how certain tunes can be recognised by the area they were recorded in. We all recognise that Wylie/ hestor Beat from Detroit. Is there a Distinctive sound for certain area`s / city`s of the USA? . Or is it just down to the Labels, and what exceptions to that rule are there, what i mean is something that you were sure upon hearing it would have come from a certain area but didn`t. Just thought it might be something new to discuss. I`ll start you off with a prime example, the first time i heard this i would have put money on it being from Detroit,

Edited July 13, 201212 yr by HARRY CROSBY

Yes very Detroit sounding. Is this the same Lee Garrett who had hits in the 70,s. Blind guy?

Good topic but hard to define. I think there are certain elements that come out of various areas making it a little easier to determine the region of origin. Philly always seemed to have a little more string section, Chicago was similar to Detroit but smoother vocally in many cases and a little more subdued production wise... if that makes sense. Detroit, well the main thing about that is I was never able to describe a certain element within the Detroit sound until I spoke with Ronnie McNeir about 5-6 years ago. He called it "the Chinks", that hard struck non melodiuos sound strummed harshly on a guitar. Now that's a big player in the Detroit sound, copied by many, equalled by no other region as far as I'm concerned

Steve

Edited July 13, 201212 yr by soulman

  On 13/07/2012 at 15:51, soulman said:

Good topic but hard to define. I think there are certain elements that come out of various areas making it a little easier to determine the region of origin. Philly always seemed to have a little more string section, Chicago was similar to Detroit but smoother vocally in many cases and a little more subdued production wise... if that makes sense. Detroit, well the main thing about that is I was never able to describe a certain element within the Detroit sound until I spoke with Ronnie McNeir about 5-6 years ago. He called it "the Chinks", that hard struck non melodiuos sound strummed harshly on a guitar. Now that's a big player in the Detroit sound, copied by many, equalled by no other region as far as I'm concerned

Steve

Thanks for the replies guys, allways wondered what the musical term for that giutar work was.

The Volcanos - Against The Laws Of Love - A philly recording surely, but sounding very Detroit to me.

Listen to the instrumental side - It has the chinks and a "Mike Terry" honking away.

John Lloyd

Another Arctic

To an Insrtrumental Backing Track ?

Same As Rotations.

Some of the Arctic stuff was recorded in Detroit at Golden World.Aint it baby was deffo one.

  On 13/07/2012 at 15:51, soulman said:

Good topic but hard to define. I think there are certain elements that come out of various areas making it a little easier to determine the region of origin. Philly always seemed to have a little more string section, Chicago was similar to Detroit but smoother vocally in many cases and a little more subdued production wise... if that makes sense. Detroit, well the main thing about that is I was never able to describe a certain element within the Detroit sound until I spoke with Ronnie McNeir about 5-6 years ago. He called it "the Chinks", that hard struck non melodiuos sound strummed harshly on a guitar. Now that's a big player in the Detroit sound, copied by many, equalled by no other region as far as I'm concerned

Steve

Problem is 'The Chinks" is a Philadelphia term. It refers to the simple, repetative guitar chord played on the backbeat. If I was to select one single strand of instrumentation that makes a Detroit sound it would be the drum fills. The whole Motown signature sound was built on Benjamins', Jones' and Allen's drum fills. There were many other important components too of course but when these guys banged out that metronome like like beat there was nothing like it.

I think the problem with describing sixties regional soul sounds is that so much of it is so blatantly Motownesque. Many of the examples here on this thread owe more to Detroit than to Philly. The label may well say Philly but the ears say Detroit. Another example is The Valentinos "Sweeter....". For years people kept telling me it was Chicago, yet my ears told me Motown! When Tats managed to collar Bobby Womack last year, he finally confirmed 100% it was The Funk Brothers. When I interviewed the Harthon/DynoDynamics Team they seem to think that The Rotations track was recorded at Motown, actually in the Snakepit. The story was that Jimmy Bishop took the guys over there with a mind to strike some kind of deal with Berry Gordy. They took a vocal group called the Inspirations with them. Luther remembered playing on it and Weldon was certain that Benny Benjamin played drums on the session. The deal Bishop was trying for never materialised and the tapes were taken back to Frank Virtue's place on Broad St in Philly. The guys also remembered recording at Golden World. They remembered for sure because they ALL complained to me individually about being crammed into a car to get there.

I suppose if one specific label, outside of Motown, could claim a sound that is associated with a geographic area then Muscle Shoals, Stax/Volt would have a decent claim but for me it would be Mirwood/Keymen. No doubting the sound of the string laden, uptempo guitar work from Messrs Smith, and Carmichael. The 'sound' of LA? Well maybe not alone, as there were others that contributed huge amounts too, but as good a claim as any I reckon.

Good Thread.

Regards,

Dave

  On 14/07/2012 at 12:24, Dave Moore said:

Problem is 'The Chinks" is a Philadelphia term. It refers to the simple, repetative guitar chord played on the backbeat. If I was to select one single strand of instrumentation that makes a Detroit sound it would be the drum fills. The whole Motown signature sound was built on Benjamins', Jones' and Allen's drum fills. There were many other important components too of course but when these guys banged out that metronome like like beat there was nothing like it.

I think the problem with describing sixties regional soul sounds is that so much of it is so blatantly Motownesque. Many of the examples here on this thread owe more to Detroit than to Philly. The label may well say Philly but the ears say Detroit. Another example is The Valentinos "Sweeter....". For years people kept telling me it was Chicago, yet my ears told me Motown! When Tats managed to collar Bobby Womack last year, he finally confirmed 100% it was The Funk Brothers. When I interviewed the Harthon/DynoDynamics Team they seem to think that The Rotations track was recorded at Motown, actually in the Snakepit. The story was that Jimmy Bishop took the guys over there with a mind to strike some kind of deal with Berry Gordy. They took a vocal group called the Inspirations with them. Luther remembered playing on it and Weldon was certain that Benny Benjamin played drums on the session. The deal Bishop was trying for never materialised and the tapes were taken back to Frank Virtue's place on Broad St in Philly. The guys also remembered recording at Golden World. They remembered for sure because they ALL complained to me individually about being crammed into a car to get there.

I suppose if one specific label, outside of Motown, could claim a sound that is associated with a geographic area then Muscle Shoals, Stax/Volt would have a decent claim but for me it would be Mirwood/Keymen. No doubting the sound of the string laden, uptempo guitar work from Messrs Smith, and Carmichael. The 'sound' of LA? Well maybe not alone, as there were others that contributed huge amounts too, but as good a claim as any I reckon.

Good Thread.

Regards,

Dave

Great Reply Dave, some really intresting info there. So the success of the motown sound was in demand by others also, makes sense really considering there huge success.

  On 14/07/2012 at 12:24, Dave Moore said:

Problem is 'The Chinks" is a Philadelphia term. It refers to the simple, repetative guitar chord played on the backbeat. If I was to select one single strand of instrumentation that makes a Detroit sound it would be the drum fills. The whole Motown signature sound was built on Benjamins', Jones' and Allen's drum fills. There were many other important components too of course but when these guys banged out that metronome like like beat there was nothing like it.

I think the problem with describing sixties regional soul sounds is that so much of it is so blatantly Motownesque. Many of the examples here on this thread owe more to Detroit than to Philly. The label may well say Philly but the ears say Detroit. Another example is The Valentinos "Sweeter....". For years people kept telling me it was Chicago, yet my ears told me Motown! When Tats managed to collar Bobby Womack last year, he finally confirmed 100% it was The Funk Brothers. When I interviewed the Harthon/DynoDynamics Team they seem to think that The Rotations track was recorded at Motown, actually in the Snakepit. The story was that Jimmy Bishop took the guys over there with a mind to strike some kind of deal with Berry Gordy. They took a vocal group called the Inspirations with them. Luther remembered playing on it and Weldon was certain that Benny Benjamin played drums on the session. The deal Bishop was trying for never materialised and the tapes were taken back to Frank Virtue's place on Broad St in Philly. The guys also remembered recording at Golden World. They remembered for sure because they ALL complained to me individually about being crammed into a car to get there.

I suppose if one specific label, outside of Motown, could claim a sound that is associated with a geographic area then Muscle Shoals, Stax/Volt would have a decent claim but for me it would be Mirwood/Keymen. No doubting the sound of the string laden, uptempo guitar work from Messrs Smith, and Carmichael. The 'sound' of LA? Well maybe not alone, as there were others that contributed huge amounts too, but as good a claim as any I reckon.

Good Thread.

Regards,

Dave

In essence I agree entirely Dave although I would have to suggest leaving out Motown in the equation of things. Motown had that inimitable opening drum beat which was copied throughout but when you get down to small label releases a la Popcorn material, it really does have the "Chinks" to an extent that you don't necessarily hear in any other regional material, even Chicago if it derives from that city or not. I guess the problem is that the musicians of the day moonlighted, freelanced and made means however they could, where ever they could. So the whole debate falls flat on it's ar*e. Things wre just too easy back then, no claims, no blames just every man for themselves and if the boss didn't know there was "no shit". Like the reply though Dave

Steve

Eddie 'Chank' Willis got his nickname from supplying those distinctive backbeat licks heard on so many records - Motown and other labels.

  On 14/07/2012 at 14:54, Rob Moss said:

Eddie 'Chank' Willis got his nickname from supplying those distinctive backbeat licks heard on so many records - Motown and other labels.

Could be a derivative of what Ronnie told me Rob. How's your wallet nowadays, still strapped to your thigh :D :D

Steve

  On 14/07/2012 at 02:35, TRICKY said:

Yes i agree entirely and lets not forget that a lot of musical set-ups were after that Detroit sound because of Motowns chart success.A little something of interest to me was hearing some Detroit musicions playing Beatles songs,you could tell straight away what city they belong to

Some of the Arctic stuff was recorded in Detroit at Golden World.Aint it baby was deffo one.

  On 14/07/2012 at 14:59, soulman said:

Could be a derivative of what Ronnie told me Rob. How's your wallet nowadays, still strapped to your thigh :D :D

Steve

I think that could be his penis (smile)

'Focused On You' by Bernard Williams & The Original Blue Notes (yet another Harthon track from Philly) always sounded like a Detroit recording. No wonder the later issue of the backing track was titled 'Detroit City Soul'.

I think guitar strikes were named chinks because of their "chink" or "chinka" sound.

Some tracks just wouldn't sound right without those very simple chinks to accent the beats (tambourines were used on some tracks for similar effect). Simple but so important.

And let's not forget how very important offbeat guitar chinks (vamped but usually with loads of reverb) were on so many reggae and dub records, the Jamaicans were probably influenced at first by those early New Orleans ballads rather than uptempo Detroit tracks.

The basic rhythms of many early Detroit and New Orleans tracks had a similar feel.

It probably all came out of jazz, who knows ?

Paul

  On 14/07/2012 at 12:24, Dave Moore said:

Problem is 'The Chinks" is a Philadelphia term. It refers to the simple, repetative guitar chord played on the backbeat. If I was to select one single strand of instrumentation that makes a Detroit sound it would be the drum fills. The whole Motown signature sound was built on Benjamins', Jones' and Allen's drum fills. There were many other important components too of course but when these guys banged out that metronome like like beat there was nothing like it.

I think the problem with describing sixties regional soul sounds is that so much of it is so blatantly Motownesque. Many of the examples here on this thread owe more to Detroit than to Philly. The label may well say Philly but the ears say Detroit. Another example is The Valentinos "Sweeter....". For years people kept telling me it was Chicago, yet my ears told me Motown! When Tats managed to collar Bobby Womack last year, he finally confirmed 100% it was The Funk Brothers. When I interviewed the Harthon/DynoDynamics Team they seem to think that The Rotations track was recorded at Motown, actually in the Snakepit. The story was that Jimmy Bishop took the guys over there with a mind to strike some kind of deal with Berry Gordy. They took a vocal group called the Inspirations with them. Luther remembered playing on it and Weldon was certain that Benny Benjamin played drums on the session. The deal Bishop was trying for never materialised and the tapes were taken back to Frank Virtue's place on Broad St in Philly. The guys also remembered recording at Golden World. They remembered for sure because they ALL complained to me individually about being crammed into a car to get there.

I suppose if one specific label, outside of Motown, could claim a sound that is associated with a geographic area then Muscle Shoals, Stax/Volt would have a decent claim but for me it would be Mirwood/Keymen. No doubting the sound of the string laden, uptempo guitar work from Messrs Smith, and Carmichael. The 'sound' of LA? Well maybe not alone, as there were others that contributed huge amounts too, but as good a claim as any I reckon.

Good Thread.

Regards,

Dave

That would be the Inspirations who recorded " Gotta find a new love" and "I can feel it" re-issued on Benn X?

Had a cut of that unissued track in the early 90's and always thought it was master tape only.

Found out on an SS thread a while back that there are a couple of versions around on original Mercury acetates.

Butch used to play "Gotta find a new love", so presume he has one of the Mercury acetates.

The version on the cut I have of "Gotta find a new love" is different to the Benn X reissue.

Any more info on these Inspirations? Where were these tracks recorded?

  On 14/07/2012 at 20:46, Paul Mooney said:

'Focused On You' by Bernard Williams & The Original Blue Notes (yet another Harthon track from Philly) always sounded like a Detroit recording. No wonder the later issue of the backing track was titled 'Detroit City Soul'.

I think guitar strikes were named chinks because of their "chink" or "chinka" sound.

Some tracks just wouldn't sound right without those very simple chinks to accent the beats (tambourines were used on some tracks for similar effect). Simple but so important.

And let's not forget how very important offbeat guitar chinks (vamped but usually with loads of reverb) were on so many reggae and dub records, the Jamaicans were probably influenced at first by those early New Orleans ballads rather than uptempo Detroit tracks.

The basic rhythms of many early Detroit and New Orleans tracks had a similar feel.

It probably all came out of jazz, who knows ?

Paul

"Chinky chink" is an old term for New Orleans style syncopation. If you wanna talk about playing on different beats, I think you have to look to the Crescent City.

It's fairly well known that drummer Smokey Johnson spent time working with the folks at Motown.

  On 14/07/2012 at 12:24, Dave Moore said:

Problem is 'The Chinks" is a Philadelphia term. It refers to the simple, repetative guitar chord played on the backbeat. If I was to select one single strand of instrumentation that makes a Detroit sound it would be the drum fills. The whole Motown signature sound was built on Benjamins', Jones' and Allen's drum fills. There were many other important components too of course but when these guys banged out that metronome like like beat there was nothing like it.

I think the problem with describing sixties regional soul sounds is that so much of it is so blatantly Motownesque. Many of the examples here on this thread owe more to Detroit than to Philly. The label may well say Philly but the ears say Detroit. Another example is The Valentinos "Sweeter....". For years people kept telling me it was Chicago, yet my ears told me Motown! When Tats managed to collar Bobby Womack last year, he finally confirmed 100% it was The Funk Brothers. When I interviewed the Harthon/DynoDynamics Team they seem to think that The Rotations track was recorded at Motown, actually in the Snakepit. The story was that Jimmy Bishop took the guys over there with a mind to strike some kind of deal with Berry Gordy. They took a vocal group called the Inspirations with them. Luther remembered playing on it and Weldon was certain that Benny Benjamin played drums on the session. The deal Bishop was trying for never materialised and the tapes were taken back to Frank Virtue's place on Broad St in Philly. The guys also remembered recording at Golden World. They remembered for sure because they ALL complained to me individually about being crammed into a car to get there.

I suppose if one specific label, outside of Motown, could claim a sound that is associated with a geographic area then Muscle Shoals, Stax/Volt would have a decent claim but for me it would be Mirwood/Keymen. No doubting the sound of the string laden, uptempo guitar work from Messrs Smith, and Carmichael. The 'sound' of LA? Well maybe not alone, as there were others that contributed huge amounts too, but as good a claim as any I reckon.

Good Thread.

Regards,

Dave

Hi Dave, I was led to believe the guitar riffs on the backbeat as you so rightly describe, was an original Detroit "thing" mimicked in the likes of Philadelphia in the wake of the popularity of the Motor City sound? Irrespective superb thread, and as Tricky mentions earlier, several of the Artctic tracks were produced by Mike Terry and recorded in Detroit, inclusive of at least three of the Volcanoes 45's......I'd be genuinely interested in any further information with regard to any other Arctic or any other Philly product recorded in Detroit.

Regards wilxy

ja definatly rnb and jazz. Dub was made by enginers on a mixing desk the most famous being King Tubby.

  On 14/07/2012 at 23:24, wilxy said:

Hi Dave, I was led to believe the guitar riffs on the backbeat as you so rightly describe, was an original Detroit "thing" mimicked in the likes of Philadelphia in the wake of the popularity of the Motor City sound? Irrespective superb thread, and as Tricky mentions earlier, several of the Artctic tracks were produced by Mike Terry and recorded in Detroit, inclusive of at least three of the Volcanoes 45's......I'd be genuinely interested in any further information with regard to any other Arctic or any other Philly product recorded in Detroit.

Regards wilxy

Hi Mike,

Yep, it would appear that 'The Chinks' are linked to many facets of the era's music. I suppose it depends on who people have spoken to and where their interest lies. It would make sense to me that their use is buried somewhere in pre soul music, just like so many other components of it are.

Which Volcanos tracks have you got annotated as Mike Terry's? With Carl Fisher appearing at Prestatyn next March, he may well be able to shed more light on individual tracks, although I don't think he was involved to deeply in the production of his Arctic songs.

There are many links/connections between Detroit and Philadelphia, not least being Earlbarb Music which was owned by MT and Jack Ashford. Jack of course was a native of Philly. The most obvious 'connection' being Yvonne Baker's versions of "I Can't Change" and "Mend The Broken/Torn Pieces" (although theses sides were recorded at Reco Arts in Philly under Kae Williams I think. When I asked Lorraine she had no idea how those tracks were picked up by Kae.

MT played on a number of great Philly sides that were actually recorded in Philly too, including Jesse James' - The Horse, and a number of Brothers Of Love sides .

Regards,

Dave

Edited July 15, 201212 yr by Dave Moore

The same could be said for a guitarist,can definitely recognise Curtis and B B King by their playing style ,i read somewhere probably because Curtis when a kid tuned his guitar to the black notes on the piano.Don't know about B B but just recognise his playing style every time even when playing behind some rock legend.

  On 14/07/2012 at 02:35, TRICKY said:

Some of the Arctic stuff was recorded in Detroit at Golden World.Aint it baby was deffo one.

Yep, thats true.Gene Dozier had himself quite a good thing going at Golden World until the Philly soul crew turned up to cut some tracks there. They asked why everyone in Detroit referred to Ugene under a false name ..... it was only then that the Detroit crew learnt who Ugene really was & coz he had told them a few lies to get his foot in the door, his services were dispensed with.

  On 15/07/2012 at 07:35, Dave Moore said:

Hi Mike,

Yep, it would appear that 'The Chinks' are linked to many facets of the era's music. I suppose it depends on who people have spoken to and where their interest lies. It would make sense to me that their use is buried somewhere in pre soul music, just like so many other components of it are.

Which Volcanos tracks have you got annotated as Mike Terry's? With Carl Fisher appearing at Prestatyn next March, he may well be able to shed more light on individual tracks, although I don't think he was involved to deeply in the production of his Arctic songs.

There are many links/connections between Detroit and Philadelphia, not least being Earlbarb Music which was owned by MT and Jack Ashford. Jack of course was a native of Philly. The most obvious 'connection' being Yvonne Baker's versions of "I Can't Change" and "Mend The Broken/Torn Pieces" (although theses sides were recorded at Reco Arts in Philly under Kae Williams I think. When I asked Lorraine she had no idea how those tracks were picked up by Kae.

MT played on a number of great Philly sides that were actually recorded in Philly too, including Jesse James' - The Horse, and a number of Brothers Of Love sides .

Regards,

Dave

Hi Dave,

with regard to the Vocanos tracks, Storm Warning/Laws of love, and I believe A Lady's man are the 3 "alleged" Detroit recordings, there maybe more, but as you rightly say the links/connections between several US cities and Detroit make it difficult to substantiate.......Great though......makes the mind boggle

Regards wilxy

Great Info folks , this is what SS is all about , not all that backbiting shite that goes on.

Thanks

Swifty

  On 14/07/2012 at 18:47, Gilly said:

I think that could be his penis (smile)

Wallet / penis.... neither has seen the light of d......................actually I'll stop there before I get into bother

Sorry Rob

Steve

Fabulous and fascinating thread. Interestingly enough I have an original Virtue acetate dated from 25th October 1965 of "D9" takes 9 & 10 and credited to "The Inspirations" - sounds like "The Rotations" to me!! Will be putting it up for sale soon, if anyone's interested

Des

  On 13/07/2012 at 08:21, HARRY CROSBY said:

Was just thinking, how certain tunes can be recognised by the area they were recorded in. We all recognise that Wylie/ hestor Beat from Detroit. Is there a Distinctive sound for certain area`s / city`s of the USA? . Or is it just down to the Labels, and what exceptions to that rule are there, what i mean is something that you were sure upon hearing it would have come from a certain area but didn`t. Just thought it might be something new to discuss. I`ll start you off with a prime example, the first time i heard this i would have put money on it being from Detroit,

Harry within one second, before that first drum roll ended, I knew that was a Harthon production and not a Detroit one.

  On 14/07/2012 at 20:46, Paul Mooney said:

'Focused On You' by Bernard Williams & The Original Blue Notes (yet another Harthon track from Philly) always sounded like a Detroit recording. No wonder the later issue of the backing track was titled 'Detroit City Soul'.

I think guitar strikes were named chinks because of their "chink" or "chinka" sound.

Some tracks just wouldn't sound right without those very simple chinks to accent the beats (tambourines were used on some tracks for similar effect). Simple but so important.

And let's not forget how very important offbeat guitar chinks (vamped but usually with loads of reverb) were on so many reggae and dub records, the Jamaicans were probably influenced at first by those early New Orleans ballads rather than uptempo Detroit tracks.

The basic rhythms of many early Detroit and New Orleans tracks had a similar feel.

It probably all came out of jazz, who knows ?

Paul

All of the first Jamaican recordings were influenced directly by New Orleans musicians, when they began recording in 57/58 the major influences were Fats Domino, Dave Bartholemew, Smiley Lewis. The only recordings done before that time were one off acetates as there were no recording facilities on the Island. Ska grew out of what was originally known as "Shuffle", the Jamaican equivalent of New Orleans R & B, and the reliance on the offbeat gave ska it's unique sound.

  On 15/07/2012 at 20:31, Pete S said:

Harry within one second, before that first drum roll ended, I knew that was a Harthon production and not a Detroit one.

My only excuse is it was a very long time ago when i first heard it Pete, far less in the know back then.

At least it started off a good thread, some fascinating stuff, great replies folks

Edited July 15, 201212 yr by HARRY CROSBY

  On 15/07/2012 at 21:17, HARRY CROSBY said:

My only excuse is it was a very long time ago when i first heard it Pete, far less in the know back then.

At least it started off a good thread, some fascinating stuff, great replies folks

No didn't mean that to sound like showing off, just heard so many of those great Harthon records to know, same as when you hear a drum fill on certain Motown records you know who that drummer is.

  On 15/07/2012 at 21:52, Pete S said:

No didn't mean that to sound like showing off, just heard so many of those great Harthon records to know, same as when you hear a drum fill on certain Motown records you know who that drummer is.

To be honest Pete, had I not known some of the Philly items it would be quite easy to confuse some of them with being Detroit productions, so I suppose ii could be a case of the "Chicken and the egg" with regard to my earlier point of mimicking certain riffs, in as much as who was actually mimicking who?

I've always assumed that with the US market being more localised in the 60s/early 70s if a record went big locally then other labels in the same vicinity would attempt to mimic the sound and feel of it, leading to a regional 'sound' that later became recognised.

The flip side of this would be with larger labels and distributors who be aware of what was happening elsewhere and, if they had an act that they felt would suit that sound, they would attempt to mimic it with their own artists. This would lead to some of the soundalike releases that we know, even though they're from a totally different region.