Funky Soul

[Guest john s]

If you dig too deep into any named musical gene you're going to hit a point where the quality level eventually drops off the cliff face.

I happen to love "Pow Wow" by Manny Corchado and consider it to be one of the greatest and most charismatic dance records ever made, but an hour long set of 'authentic' 1960s Boogaloo on ever more obscure labels by more and more marginal artists might just drive me to slash my wrists.

Pow Wow is a tremendous record but there ARE other great boogaloo records as well as that and 'Use it before you lose it' (a superb record, but I wouldn't mind if I never heard it again).

I think any sub-genre for a solid hour would get pretty boring!

[Dylan]

I suppose the part of soul that I used to favour as a collector was deep soul. Outside of about a hundred key titles the quality goes out the window and you eventually reach a point where it becomes difficult to find any semblance of true quality in much of what lies beyond the 'great' records. I eventually began to question whether it was financially worthwhile to continue to mine the depths of the terminally amateurish, the slap-dash and the derivative.

I think it's a similar story with funky-soul, beat ballads, crossover, etc. and that includes so-called 'classic' Northern Soul of the Wigan/Torch/Mecca variety.

I appreciate you are generalising here but would you realy say a number as low as 100 for great deep records. I would pitch it much higher myself. Not sure exactly where but surely over 1000 ?

I did set out to find certain records and once I owned them or gave up trying some of the things that I bought after never quite measured up and the great finds started getting less and less. But I still do hear new things to me that I think are great.

[Wiggyflat]

Heres another one that can fit into an uptempo sixties set and not be out of place...you can keep youre George Lemons and Camaros.Anyone got any tips in this funky style

[Guest gordon russell]

I've seen a lot of people play disjointed sets that don't flow - that's nothing to do with playing funky music, that's being a crap DJ, not being able to read a crowd, and not knowing how your records go together, surely.

No....because if ya playing that type of set when clearly most others ain,t it then makes the flow disjointed surely. The same would be true if at a funk night right in the middle, someone playing a big oldies set would make the night disjointed and one could presume that folk at a funk night may feel the same as they are there for funk

Edited July 10, 2012 by gordon russell

[Garethx]

^

Yes Dylan, in retrospect 100 titles was probably too small a number but for me it wouldn't get too far beyond a couple of hundred. It's been a long time since I heard something I didn't know on, for example, Sirshambling which I felt compelled to buy if it was in the category of 'un-common' let alone 'rare'. I know a big factor in that is the result of having less disposable income these days, but I stick by my general point.

Edited July 10, 2012 by garethx

[Corbett80]

This topic has reared its head for five years on here. Bottom line is there are only two types of music: not even good versus bad, just those you like and those you don't. I look at the debate from a far more clear-headed stance than I used to. You can't separate records into genres and declare one to be superior to another: you've got to judge each piece of music on its merits.

A lot of people appear to be claiming that Northern Soul is a genre when every compelling piece of evidence suggests this is nonsense. Musical fashion has always played a big part and the sound has always evolved, expanded and then sometimes contracted. NS cannot be a single musical genre if it contains Kurt Harris on Diamond on one hand and Burning Desire on Charisma Sound on the other. Both have been played and danced to at NS nights and collected on vinyl by NS punters. Funk records have been played and collected on the scene for over thirty-five years now. Tell me The Crow or Frankie 'Love Man' Crocker or The Delreys Inc. and so on aren't funk or funky. They are and they were massive records in their day and are still avidly collected now, both by time-served veterans and what few young converts come along.

The funkier records seem to have become part of the flavour of the last few years again. If they get played at Northern Soul venues they become 'Northern Soul' just the same as Popcorn records like Sam Fletcher and Kell Osborne became Northern Soul in the 1980s once they got scene spins.

The window of the classic Mirwood / Soul Town / Okeh stomper was only a very brief one in NS's overall 'journey' to use a horrible reality TV phrase. Yes, it is a lot of peoples' favourite flavour of NS, but to claim it is the only flavour is historically incorrect. Curtis and Levine found or broke as much of that stuff as any men alive yet they moved on from it in quite a short period of time.

As time moves on a few of these newer funky spins will stick around to get something approaching oldie or classic status. Hopefully the better ones, but that isn't always the case: a load of the classic Mecca / Torch Cats 60s oldies are absolutely sh*te records too if you ask me, as are many of the Stafford / Leicester / 100 Club sounds as well if we're being brutally honest.

Many of these new funk records are indeed poor, but some are absolute gems and it becomes hard to suppress surprise when some can castigate Fred Williams for lacking 'soul' when some of the touchstones of their 'soul scene' were made by Beverly Ann Bremers, Paul Anka, Little Peggy March or Joanie Sommers. To anyone in the real world that particular leap in logic takes a lot of explaining.

The best deejays can generally gauge which records in a new style might have the legs to eventually possess longevity. My problem with any influx of an unfamiliar sound is when bandwagon jumpers change their sets wholesale to a sound they have no real feel for or depth of interest in collecting. Happened when NYC disco came in and when Popcorn became acceptable. Also happened when Crossover became flavour of the Month and then 50s R&B.

Once funk stuff was being played by some of the up-front niter deejays it seemed a logical conclusion to invite long-term funk collectors like George to spin at 'Soul' venues. Whether he found it valuable is something you'd have to ask him. I know he used to post here but doesn't seem to any more. I like George as a deejay and have heard him play some phenomenal examples of black music: anyone with more than a passing interest in collecting vintage Black American vinyl can't fail to be knocked out with the depth and breadth of his knowledge and taste. Whether the so-called Northen Soul Scene of 2012 is the right place for him is debatable however.

The big niters appear more oldie-based than ever before. This is not a dig at the people who run them or those who attend. What 'Newies' niters there are seem to be finding it tough as regular and sustainable venues. Again not a dig at those responsible for running them either.

While the bigger allnighters might have issues with the funkier soul sound it can sound great in bars without huge dance floors. A proliferation in local soul nights in pubs and bars are doing OK and some of the records mentioned above and others like Willie Joe "Funny Thing" or Bethea The Maskman "Ghetto Love" etc. sound great in that particular context.

I remember when Trouble started Soul Revolution and one of the punters complained to Keb (who was playing records there) about things like drinking on the dancefloor, funk music, non-scene punters and a seemingly endless litany of gripes. In his own irascible way Keb just said "Go back to your dusty ballrooms". I don't have to spell out what he meant.

Playing any strand or flavour of unknown vintage soul music in a ballroom designed for 500 to 1000 people is really hard these days. I bet if the cream of the current crop of deejays unleashed the last remaining unknown Torch styled stompers (if such a thing still existed) in a couple of sets on the current UK niter scene they would be met with a degree of indifference. Some people have never accepted The Mello Souls yet.

Funk isn't killing the allnighter scene, it's strangling itself just by its very nature. It wasn't supposed to last forever and as many punters lurch towards advanced middle age it's facing its death throes.

Nail, head.

[Guest john s]

No....because if ya playing that type of set when clearly most others ain,t it then makes the flow disjointed surely. The same would be true if at a funk night right in the middle, someone playing a big oldies set would make the night disjointed and one could presume that folk at a funk night may feel the same as they are there for funk

Ah, misunderstood you - you mean the flow of an 'oldies' night would be disjointed by someone playing a 'funk' set.

I meant the other thing - I heard someone recently playing a set of across-the-board oldies - Skip Mahoney, Fascinations, Ruby Andrews and so on. Sounded like he was pulling them out of a lucky dip bag at random.

[Wiggyflat]

And another one ive bee plugging/spinning.....funky northern

[Jumpinjoan]

Heres another one that can fit into an uptempo sixties set and not be out of place...you can keep youre George Lemons and Camaros.Anyone got any tips in this funky style

[media=]

These type of records are not what we're talking about. How many times!

[KevH]

And another one ive bee plugging/spinning.....funky northern

[media=]

Sory Wiggy,not for me.A soul record.

[KevH]

Here's what i mean Wiggy,something to grab ya balls.Gritty dancer.....

[Wiggyflat]

What this stuff???? How can anyone from the northern scene....production values/dancing style/music /speed get into this.. this is the stuff the north was running from in the early seventies.....i'm getting me coat and going to the sales thread....lol

[KevH]

What this stuff???? How can anyone from the northern scene....production values/dancing style/music /speed get into this.. this is the stuff the north was running from in the early seventies.....i'm getting me coat and going to the sales thread....lol

[media=]

Get my coat while you're there Wiggy.

[Guest Bearsy]

Heres another one that can fit into an uptempo sixties set and not be out of place...you can keep youre George Lemons and Camaros.Anyone got any tips in this funky style

Time for a fag lol

[Liljimmycrank]

What this stuff???? How can anyone from the northern scene....production values/dancing style/music /speed get into this.. this is the stuff the north was running from in the early seventies.....i'm getting me coat and going to the sales thread....lol

[media=]

I think this is the type of stuff Joan is referring to yes. Although, i have to say, it's not what i thought we were on about, but as with most threads on here the waters get murkier as things progress

But i get easily confused.

[Guest Bearsy]

And another one ive bee plugging/spinning.....funky northern

Time for a cigar lolol

[Realpeoplesmusic]

That one is a waste of good vinyl.

If you'd of saw the reaction at Different Strokes and other Niter venues where this has been played i think you may think twice before silly comments like that.

Maybe it's just time to accept that the Northern/rare soul scene may be evolving into something more exciting (like back in the day) where just good records can get played and more importantly danced to!

When I say good records i mean from genre's that we are all familiar with (Soul, RnB, Funk, Latin, Jazz, Boogaloo), i know there will be one or two clever dicks saying "so it's ok to play GOOD rock music then"...No it's not.

Nights like Empty Bottles, Pork and Beans and Different Strokes seems to play a mixture of sounds and it works very well, not only that i they always attract new people, When i come back from one from one of those nights i always feel musically satisfied and excited about the music i have heard...

Callum

Edited July 10, 2012 by callum_64

[Russ Vickers]

The problem is a lot of people trashing funky edged soul have no idea what they are talking about & are confusing the sound with other things IMHO, thing about SS is the amount of folk who 'gob off' from thier Laptop & actually dont go any where any more to be able to comment tbh.

Best Russ

[Pete S]

If you'd of saw the reaction at Different Strokes and other Niter venues where this has been played i think you may think twice before silly comments like that.

Don't silly comment me, it was utter sh*t. I can think for myself.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Pete S

[Pete S]

The problem is a lot of people trashing funky edged soul have no idea what they are talking about & are confusing the sound with other things IMHO, thing about SS is the amount of folk who 'gob off' from thier Laptop & actually dont go any where any more to be able to comment tbh.

Best Russ

Says a bloke sitting thousands of miles away

[TOAD]

tell you what gets me mad is retro types trying to tell everyone the way forward ! Theres still plenty of soul records to play although new stuff is minimal. Get your own scene and stop tagging onto the nsoul /rare scene! A mish mash doesnt work for many !

[Russ Vickers]

Good point Pete, but to be fair I probably still go more Nighters in a year than a lot of folk...Im home roughly every 6 weeks & I will usually do at least one Nighter, maybe more depending on how it falls, so whilst Im not out every weekend any more cos of the job, I get a fair few in & certainly more than enough to be able to comment comprehensively on the current scene...unlike many of the key board warriors commenting on a sound they have never heard in a venue.

Best Russ

[Pete S]

Good point Pete, but to be fair I probably still go more Nighters in a year than a lot of folk...Im home roughly every 6 weeks & I will usually do at least one Nighter, maybe more depending on how it falls, so whilst Im not out every weekend any more cos of the job, I get a fair few in & certainly more than enough to be able to comment comprehensively on the current scene...unlike many of the key board warriors commenting on a sound they have never heard in a venue.

Best Russ

You don't have to hear it at a venue Russ, Steve G in the weekender thread says that most of the stuff posted up in this thread is second rate, and he knows more about it than me, I can only comment on whats in front of me and if I don't like it I will bloody well say so and just because someone danced to it once it doesn't make it any better. I remember hundreds of people dancing to My hearts symphony but it's still sh*t.

[Pete S]

tell you what gets me mad is retro types trying to tell everyone the way forward ! Theres still plenty of soul records to play although new stuff is minimal. Get your own scene and stop tagging onto the nsoul /rare scene! A mish mash doesnt work for many !

This is another point I absolutely agree with.

[Guest gordon russell]

Ah, misunderstood you - you mean the flow of an 'oldies' night would be disjointed by someone playing a 'funk' set.

I meant the other thing - I heard someone recently playing a set of across-the-board oldies - Skip Mahoney, Fascinations, Ruby Andrews and so on. Sounded like he was pulling them out of a lucky dip bag at random.

Edited July 10, 2012 by gordon russell

[Guest john s]

No you still got it wrong ....l wuldn,t go to venues (and don,t go) to venues that play this kinda stuff....but there are other venues out there that are vibrant without playing same old stuff........you need to get out a bit

Thanks for the advice.

[NEV]

tell you what gets me mad is retro types trying to tell everyone the way forward ! Theres still plenty of soul records to play although new stuff is minimal. Get your own scene and stop tagging onto the nsoul /rare scene! A mish mash doesnt work for many !

Lol that is so funny Toad )

Funny as in ...that's just it ,these guys have already created their own scene and are also running their own venues too!

They don't need your scene anymore

So when you look around the half empty venue and wonder why there's no young people there anymore ..here's your answer .

Old folk who patronised the youngsters by saying ,we welcome you into our fold ,come in ,pay your money ,by all means have a dance but don't expect to have an opinion !

The scene is ever evolving ..god bless the young people who are breathing fresh life into it

[Steve G]

You don't have to hear it at a venue Russ, Steve G in the weekender thread says that most of the stuff posted up in this thread is second rate, and he knows more about it than me,

Well yes, but I am not saying there isn't great funky edged stuff Pete, just not things like Reggie Milner, Softouch etc. Very average 45s.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Steve G

[Pete S]

Lol that is so funny Toad )

Funny as in ...that's just it ,these guys have already created their own scene and are also running their own venues too!

They don't need your scene anymore

So when you look around the half empty venue and wonder why there's no young people there anymore ..here's your answer .

Old folk who patronised the youngsters by saying ,we welcome you into our fold ,come in ,pay your money ,by all means have a dance but don't expect to have an opinion !

The scene is ever evolving ..god bless the young people who are breathing fresh life into it

So if they're so great with their own brilliant scene, why are they still hanging onto the Northern scene then? That's what Toad was saying.

It's a laugh Nev, I don't mean that nastily, but you and Russ going on as if there's hundreds of venues playing this funky stuff, out of a thousand venues probably only 20 are playing it, the other 980 aren't interested in the slightest - yet it's THEM who are in the wrong...

[TOAD]

nev dont make me laugh youngsters a fickle lot give em a few years and they wont be around ! Who cares what they do ? Empty venues is because theres to much on and apathy Ok

[Kris Holmes]

I've loved that Willie Smith 45 on Genuine ever since I first heard it years ago. But in all fairness, I'm also a funk collector & would not play it at a Soul or Northern Soul night. At a funk night, absolutely.

[Liljimmycrank]

nev dont make me laugh youngsters a fickle lot give em a few years and they wont be around ! Who cares what they do ? Empty venues is because theres to much on and apathy Ok

I agree. Went to my first soul do when i was 14, and now nearly 29.

15 years of being a fickle youngster

[TOAD]

stop quoteing me i am generalising ok who was on the 78 MOD SCENE ! This forum can get so pathatic at times.

[Russ Vickers]

So if they're so great with their own brilliant scene, why are they still hanging onto the Northern scene then? That's what Toad was saying.

It's a laugh Nev, I don't mean that nastily, but you and Russ going on as if there's hundreds of venues playing this funky stuff, out of a thousand venues probably only 20 are playing it, the other 980 aren't interested in the slightest - yet it's THEM who are in the wrong...

I think Im being misunderstood, its just another genre of black music that is being cherry picked for the NS scene by some DJ's....some is good, some is bad & some is indifferent. I like what I consider to be the best stuff & enjoy hearing & dancing to it it in sets mixed with everything else including NS oldies......thing also is Pete, out of 980 venues, only about 50 are what you would class as any good anyway, the rest are just wannabees, playing thrashed oldies from reissues n boots to thier mates, who will be doin the same next week 10 miles down the road, they have no idea of a contempary NS what so ever, its almost irelevent.....

Russ

[Liljimmycrank]

stop quoteing me i am generalising ok who was on the 78 MOD SCENE ! This forum can get so pathatic at times.

What's pathetic about defending myself? And yes, i've quoted you again, oooops!

You weren't generalising. You were calling youngsters on the scene fickle. There aren't many on the scene as this forum regularly points out, so your point is even more specific as it's targeting a small group.

If you can't take it, dont give it

[TOAD]

your point is taken and are you /have been a retro mod ? Do keep up this is getting off topic. Me ive not heard enough to pass judgement i do enjoy most genres of black music id not want a whole hour of it at a niter ?

[Little-stevie]

Well yes, but I am not saying there isn't great funky edged stuff Pete, just not things like Reggie Milner, Softouch etc. Very average 45s.

Yes indeed, them 2 choices very very average indeed.... Funk edged soul that we like and what some call " funky northern can be worlds apart...

I have seen record dealers put that " funky northern" title on boxes to try and sell what in the main are very average tunes TO ME that have gone unsold for years....

Its a funny old game...

Edited July 10, 2012 by little-stevie

[NEV]

nev dont make me laugh youngsters a fickle lot give em a few years and they wont be around ! Who cares what they do ? Empty venues is because theres to much on and apathy Ok

Its not just the youngsters mate ,it's most of Europe !

Some of Europes best dj's are playing a mix of rare soul ,soulful funk ,70's soul etc etc but they don't patronise youngsters ,infact there are a lot of young people with fantastic collections who also have plenty of knowledge about the music too!

The biggest problem here in the Uk is the constant over analysing of the musical content of a particular record ?

Always looking at it from a collector perspective instead of a punter .

I don't recall being too fussed about who sang it or even what it was called back in the 70's ?

The buzz was not in my bedroom listening to my grapevine lp .It was a necessary purchase to practice my dancing routine for the next big fix !

The feel of being in a club with all your mates hearing those tunes full belt was the whole point of the then "northern soul " scene .

Well sadly ,those days are long gone and have been replaced by far less numbers and a room full of dj/collectors sitting in corners chin wagging and putting the world of soul to rights.

So forgive me If I say ,the scene you know so well is dying on its arse and these youngsters will be still at it while we are sat at home with a head full of distant memories .

Oh and the records they are playing are not their discoveries ,just simple dance records that they have picked up on ,that suit the way they choose to dance !

No baggy trousers needed ,they were part of a scene 30+ yrs ago before most of these kids were born .

" Save the World " ..wonder who discovered that ???

seem to recall Andy Dyson having copies at £1k a few yrs back and that man has got bloody good taste in what is and isn't a good uptempo nighter sound !

[Kev Cane]

If you dig too deep into any named musical gene you're going to hit a point where the quality level eventually drops off the cliff face.

I happen to love "Pow Wow" by Manny Corchado and consider it to be one of the greatest and most charismatic dance records ever made, but an hour long set of 'authentic' 1960s Boogaloo on ever more obscure labels by more and more marginal artists might just drive me to slash my wrists.

I sometimes wonder if we aren't all too far into obscure records to wake up and smell the coffee: a lot of them, in whatever sub-genre we might favour at a particular point in time, are just not that great, for any number of reasons. A lot of soul music never rose above the level of the generic or the formulaic. Much of it was made speculatively regardless of whether those involved had any real talent. A lot of people will doubtless disagree with me and you are free to do so!

I suppose the part of soul that I used to favour as a collector was deep soul. Outside of about a hundred key titles the quality goes out the window and you eventually reach a point where it becomes difficult to find any semblance of true quality in much of what lies beyond the 'great' records. I eventually began to question whether it was financially worthwhile to continue to mine the depths of the terminally amateurish, the slap-dash and the derivative.

I think it's a similar story with funky-soul, beat ballads, crossover, etc. and that includes so-called 'classic' Northern Soul of the Wigan/Torch/Mecca variety.

Deep, ballads, sweet, thats what I like to buy gareth, I reckon its a bottomless pit, and I mean quality wise aswell, great thing is, you can confine this scene to your own four walls and converse with collectors with the same interest, hear loads of stuff every week that I don,t know and love, plus it cuts out all the political and egotistical bollocks that goes on at most places

Kev

[TOAD]

europe isnt the UK just thought id mention that.

[NEV]

europe isnt the UK just thought id mention that.

Didn't realise we'd opted out of Europe ??

when did that happen ,was it after the game against Italy )

[TOAD]

i dont care what they do over there and you might as well inclued japan we might as well start a topic on the meaning of the word SCENE as opposed to a few events once in a blue moon. i do humbly suggest rereading my posts and have a think about it. My last post as its a no win situation is just go out and enjoy what ever you want to listen to simple but dont tell me what you think is the way forward or what i should be listening to. Atb toad

[Liljimmycrank]

Keep up with what mate?? I have been commenting on the topic (i.e. the merits/views on funky soul), but sadly just felt the need to reply direct to your statement about youngsters on the scene being fickle, which i took offence to being relatively young myself. Apologies for veering off topic.

I always prefer sets to be varied at a niter anyway, so a full hour of any genre/tempo doesn't always work for me. Not saying i dont enjoy parts of those sets though. The funky edge soul stuff i like is not the stuff Joan refers to (Checkmates Ltd being a prime example). It's the tunes that are soul with funky undertones/beats, and i definitely think those records have a place on the soul scene.

[boba]

It's been a long time since I heard something I didn't know on, for example, Sirshambling which I felt compelled to buy if it was in the category of 'un-common' let alone 'rare'.

this will change if you sign up for my sales list

[boba]

I sometimes wonder if we aren't all too far into obscure records to wake up and smell the coffee: a lot of them, in whatever sub-genre we might favour at a particular point in time, are just not that great, for any number of reasons. A lot of soul music never rose above the level of the generic or the formulaic. Much of it was made speculatively regardless of whether those involved had any real talent. A lot of people will doubtless disagree with me and you are free to do so!

I look at the issue similarly but slightly differently. People need the context of mainstream r&b culture as well as African American culture / history in order to truly evaluate the rarities, as all of that is necessary context. I see some ridiculous things sometimes. I think the greatest record released in the 70s was the Spinners "I'll be around". I swear I've seen someone put it in sales as a new discovery. it's also embarrassing when a song is a cover or copy or answer to a big hit and people don't know. Or how so many funk records were straight james brown copy records -- it might be a $2000 record but it's unlikely it's better than JB.

That said, I think that independently produced, underground music often has a raw, sincere. and personal quality lacking in major label releases.

Also, I think a little differently about vocal groups than I do deep soul as singing harmony was a social / cultural activity that tons of people just did without even having an audience. I love sparse records with falsetto harmony. So independent records in that genre really have something unique and there are a lot of quality records because people were doing the same things in every city.

[Chalky]

Didn't realise we'd opted out of Europe ??

when did that happen ,was it after the game against Italy )

We haven't Nev but musically certain parts of mainland Europe and the UK are miles apart. But that depends where you go. I've seen many playlists from various European events with nothing that isn't going on here and just as oldies orientated. Others though, especially the Baltic countries are far more open minded. They don't have the baggage we have and are in general younger so maybe prefer more modern sounding records of 70's and 80's soul and funky soul over 60's, could say the same for the younger audience here.

What's happened to Christian Br¸dsj¸e? Not heard from him for a while but he had great taste, a great collection and he DJ'ed for Lifeline at the weekenders.

[Benji]

What's happened to Christian Br¸dsj¸e?

Was he user "nordic soul" or was that another Christian?

Edited July 11, 2012 by Benji

[Chalky]

Was he user "nordic soul" or was that another Christian?

Nordic was Christian Hermansson (not sure if spelt correctly).

[NEV]

Nordic was Christian Hermansson (not sure if spelt correctly).

Christian B is C.B with a Bruce lee avatar ,great taste in modern and cross over and funky edged soul .

Not seen him post for a while ?

Edited July 11, 2012 by NEV

[Steve G]

i dont care what they do over there and you might as well inclued japan we might as well start a topic on the meaning of the word SCENE as opposed to a few events once in a blue moon. i do humbly suggest rereading my posts and have a think about it. My last post as its a no win situation is just go out and enjoy what ever you want to listen to simple but dont tell me what you think is the way forward or what i should be listening to. Atb toad

Interesting Toad, but I'd just as easily step on a plane and hop over to Europe for a weekender as I would go to a club night here. Had numerous really enjoyable weekends in Italy, Spain, Germany (so far under the radar as far as our Nordic cousins are concerned ), and at the end of the day it all comes down to what you want to hear, and what will get you out of your armchair on a weekend and travelling.