Records That 'book' High But Are In Reality.....poor

[Guest Brooky]

Records that 'book' high but are in reality.....poor!!!!

Because I was out of it for so many years I am forever trawling youtube and playlists to catch up on what I missed in the interim. I also seek out stuff on Youtube from reading JM's 5th Edition.

I sometimes find a tune, classed as 'Northern' which on my take would clear any dance floor and which doesn't carry any charisma or beat and yet...carries a fairly high book price. I kmow 'rare' does not always mean good but some of these tunes just don't seem to have anything going for them at all.

I know some people quote 'Do I Love You' as poor but that is, I suggest, more a question of personal taste and played to death... not a denial that the tune has some quality,,,,in short....though you don't like it yourself you can recognise it as a danceable Northern tune.

I'll give the example that springs to my mind and I actually own a copy having bought it blind when I saw it for sale with about 2 minutes to go on eBay and remembered that I'd seen it in JM's 'Million Dollars of Soul'......more fool me!!! It 'books' at £300 in JM's 5th!

Curtis Davis - Tell Me

Seriously....how can anyone like this dirge let alone dance to it?

[media=]

I'd be interested to hear SS'ers thoughts on this one and on other nominations!!!

Edited July 4, 2012 by Brooky

[boba]

"tell me" is okay. I agree it's not great. I don't understand on this site though how everything is either the worst record ever or the best record ever, there are no good or okay or weak records.

[Sean Hampsey]

That's the worst record ever.

[Kris Holmes]

I know some people quote 'Do I Love You' as poor but that is, I suggest, more a question of personal taste and played to death... not a denial that the tune has some quality,,,,in short....though you don't like it yourself you can recognise it as a danceable Northern tune.

All you have to do is ask

I'll give until there's nothing left

this couplet has always annoyed the hell out of me in Do I Love You, such a lazy cop out, everything else rhymes or works really well but then you have this clanger right in the first verse, ask & left aren't especially tough to find rhymes for, that line just seems so phoned in. ha ha.

but yeah, i think taste has a lot to do with it, some people base their taste on the rarity factor, others on the music.

[Guest Brooky]

^{Take your point Boba but mine is that it doesn't warrant even being on the radar...it certainly doesn't warrant being in JM's 5th classed as Northern Soul or in 'Million Dollars of Soul'....it appears to be neither 'Northern' nor 'Rare' nor 'danceable'......yet it carries a £300 tag and seems to be given credence as something that qualifies for mention on Soul Source.}

^{Perhaps others can see something in it I can't...wouldn't be the first time I suppose!}

Edited July 4, 2012 by Brooky

[Kris Holmes]

that curtis davis track sucks to my ears.

[boba]

^{Take your point Boba but mine is that it doesn't warrant even being on the radar...it certainly doesn't warrant being in JM's 5th classed as Northern Soul or in 'Million Dollars of Soul'....it appears to be neither 'Northern' nor 'Rare' nor 'danceable'......yet it carries a £300 tag and seems to be given credence as something that qualifies for mention on Soul Source.}

^{Perhaps others can see something in it I can't...wouldn't be the first time I suppose!}

I agree. It should be like a $100 record in terms of rarity. I like the slow side on the argie and the arketts a lot, and it has a cooler label design.

[Guest john s]

I quite like that - not a dancefloor record though (for me anyway)!

According to Popsike, it seems to go for 60-70 quid, seems more like it for a rare non-dancer...

[Kris Holmes]

I quite like that - not a dancefloor record though (for me anyway)!

According to Popsike, it seems to go for 60-70 quid, seems more like it for a rare non-dancer...

wait, are we saying there are some records in the million dollars of rare soul and manship's guide which are overpriced??

mind = blown

[Guest john s]

well let's not be too hasty, there appears to be one so far...

[AlanB]

Curtis Davis - Tell Me

Seriously....how can anyone like this dirge ...

I'd be interested to hear SS'ers thoughts on this one and on other nominations!!!

I have to confess to liking it a lot (seriously), but agree it's never a £300 record.

Alan

[Kris Holmes]

well let's not be too hasty, there appears to be one so far...

that's ok then, i'll go back to rearranging my ebay saved search purchase priorities in the order of manship's high to low...... for now.......

[Guest Brooky]

Wel, I'm going to put on eBay tomorrow at 8pm starting at 1p and no reserve....good riddance to bad shit!!!

Memo to self.......never buy blind!!!

Here's what it says on the eBay gen'.....

=================================================================================================================

Original 45 for sale............

Curtis Davis and the 'Arketts' Crossfires Band

"Tell Me"

on

Ronnie 101 Issue

In all honesty I consider this a dreadful record. I bought it 'blind' off eBay and instantly regretted it. It Stinks. However, it books at £300 in the John Manship Guide so "Who am I....etc"

That said it's for sale...it's VG++ to Mint- so if you like listening to garbage then go for it!

It's 100% original and both vinyl and labels are excellent...see scans and hear actual record!

'Er....I've toned it down a bit from this....was a bit too negative!!! From 8.10pm...starts at 1p

Edited July 5, 2012 by Brooky

[boba]

I have to confess to liking it a lot (seriously), but agree it's never a £300 record.

Alan

is it the best record ever?

[Kris Holmes]

Wel, I'm going to put on eBay tomorrow starting at 1p and no reserve....good riddance to bad shit!!!

Memo to self.......never buy blind!!!

i'll bid, i'm trying to run manship's 5th and don't have that one yet.....

[NEV]

Wel, I'm going to put on eBay tomorrow starting at 1p and no reserve....good riddance to bad shit!!!

Memo to self.......never buy blind!!!

I'll save you the outragious eBay fee and even send as a PayPal gift of 2p ,just to relieve of this awful 45 that is causing such bad Karma for you

[AlanB]

is it the best record ever?

Ha, not exactly - but I would probably have it in my top 5,000 (otherwise I wouldn't have bought it).

Alan

[Benji]

Actually, I think this is a good question. Why are there records pretty expensive even though they're mediocre and never played anywhere? Supply and demand determine price of a record. But what if there's no demand?

The Curtis Davis record is a good example. As good as it is (I like it) it's not a record with a huge demand for it, is it?

[Guest Brooky]

_{See earlier post...on eBay for 1p from 8pm Thursday night!!!}

[Guest john s]

Actually, I think this is a good question. Why are there records pretty expensive even though they're mediocre and never played anywhere? Supply and demand determine price of a record. But what if there's no demand?

The Curtis Davis record is a good example. As good as it is (I like it) it's not a record with a huge demand for it, is it?

Probably not, but it doesn't exactly go for that much if it's rare, does it?

17 copies on popsike from Jan 2006 to now - so less than 3 a year, mean price 74 pounds...

[Guest Brooky]

Sorry..error...see earlier post!

Edited July 4, 2012 by Brooky

[Rob Wigley]

Good bits in it, but awful production and singing

[AlanB]

Supply and demand determine price of a record. But what if there's no demand?

The Curtis Davis record is a good example. As good as it is (I like it) it's not a record with a huge demand for it, is it?

Maybe not huge, but I think there is some demand for this record. I think it's the kind of thing that years ago would have been known as a tape-swappers record. When it appears on ebay there's usually healthy bidding.

I'll be watching Brooky's auction with interest.

Alan

[NEV]

Gauging a rare records value because it is a " in demand " tune is basically from your own perspective as a buyer .

Some people collect records that are very soulful but not necessarily a massive dance floor hit .

"in demand " suggests en vogue at venues up and down the country ?

If a record is very seldom found ,it is rare and can command a high price too.

"in demand " and the word "dancer " doesn't constitute rare ,but can also command high price ,but is often a false economy created by desperate people !

[Roburt]

..it appears to be neither 'Northern' nor 'Rare' nor 'danceable'...

Surely these aren't the ONLY CRITERIA that count in making a 45 expensive to buy ???

Edited July 5, 2012 by Roburt

[boba]

Actually, I think this is a good question. Why are there records pretty expensive even though they're mediocre and never played anywhere? Supply and demand determine price of a record. But what if there's no demand?

The Curtis Davis record is a good example. As good as it is (I like it) it's not a record with a huge demand for it, is it?

I think the reason is actually similar to the only "the best" vs. "the worst" thing I mentioned. if a record is decent and rare enough that you don't see it every day, it gets stuck into the 300 pound category. It's a huge category that contains records with huge variances in rarity, quality, and demand.

[Guest Duncan Ball]

i really really hate price guides,its one persons view and along with ebay has pushed prices up and up, i like the tune but maybe more like 50 quid at a push

[John Reed]

i really hate price guides,its one persons view and along with ebay has pushed prices up

The problem with price guides is that they're written by people with a vested interest in keeping prices high. Like it or not ebay sellers and buyers (but not all) do use them as benchmark valuations. So if someone gets a record below the book price they may view that they've got a bargain. Prices in these guides always seem to only go one way and I'd be interested to see the price changes in the next one's, seeing as were in one of the biggest recessions in living memory and in reality apart from seriously rare & super in-demand records the bottom has fallen out of the selling market. At the end of the day record buying is a luxury.

[Roburt]

RE: if a record is decent and rare enough that you don't see it every day, it gets stuck into the ?00 pound category ........

I concur with Bob, but lots of times' the 'seller / owner' will not realise just how rare a certain 45 is.

I recall a number of tales told by John Anderson about him selling very rare 45's for 'next to nothing' because at the time he didn't fully realise how rare the item was ..... if a box with 20 copies of a 45 lands on your desk, it's not that rare to you !!

I knew about the 1979 Emkay Records 45 releases back in the early 80's. I'd had copies of most of these 45's in my hands by the mid 80's coz a friend had them. I had the cuts on tape a few weeks later & played the tape all the time. Eventually I obtained a copy of every 45 on the label & they sat in one of my record boxes (pushed under the bed in the spare bedroom).

Then about 18 months ago, info on the Otis Williams 45 on Emkay was all over the net ... as it was getting a UK release. But just about all the talk was of 'previously unreleased' gems to gain UK 45 release .... I for one knew the 2 tracks had gained US release back in the late 70's ... BUT .... had no real idea how rare this US 45 was. I had looked for it on EvilBay & in rare price guides without success but to me that didn't automatically make it rare or sought after.

[Dylan]

the record discussed here sounds very average if I pulled that out a sales box and it was priced up at $10 i'd listen to it and put it back. I have no idea of its rarity or demand so would just judge it on what it sounds like.

here is an example of a record that seems to have gone from $300 to $30

https://www.popsike.com/php/quicksearch.php?searchtext=las+vegas+connection&x=0&y=0

is it any less rare now than it was or is it just lack of demand ?

I wonder which price out of the two people would reference when selling ?

[Jhsoulnotts]

https://www.popsike.com/php/quicksearch.php?searchtext=fabulous+dinos&thumbs=&currsel=&sortord=&x=0&y=0

Or this one!

[Pete S]

Anyone who thinks Frank Wilson is "poor" needs help.

Not a favourite of mine but as an example of "Northern Soul" it's up there with the very best of them.

You've just heard it too many times.

[SHEFFSOUL]

Records that 'book' high but are in reality.....poor!!!!

Because I was out of it for so many years I am forever trawling youtube and playlists to catch up on what I missed in the interim. I also seek out stuff on Youtube from reading JM's 5th Edition.

I sometimes find a tune, classed as 'Northern' which on my take would clear any dance floor and which doesn't carry any charisma or beat and yet...carries a fairly high book price. I kmow 'rare' does not always mean good but some of these tunes just don't seem to have anything going for them at all.

I know some people quote 'Do I Love You' as poor but that is, I suggest, more a question of personal taste and played to death... not a denial that the tune has some quality,,,,in short....though you don't like it yourself you can recognise it as a danceable Northern tune.

I'll give the example that springs to my mind and I actually own a copy having bought it blind when I saw it for sale with about 2 minutes to go on eBay and remembered that I'd seen it in JM's 'Million Dollars of Soul'......more fool me!!! It 'books' at £300 in JM's 5th!

Curtis Davis - Tell Me

Seriously....how can anyone like this dirge let alone dance to it?

[media=]

I'd be interested to hear SS'ers thoughts on this one and on other nominations!!!

yeah..agree..its okay..listenable..i've heard much worse..and you know how it is..some will buy a 45 for its rarity..others to have a 45 few others will have..bit of one upmanship if you like..

[boba]

pricing records is not an easy task. so many are rare that there aren't enough data points. You really have to know about the record to understand its rarity (and many records take years to come up for sale). You have to know about the audience of the record and how they would evaluate it to combine with the rarity to determine a value. If you're writing a price guide, it's hard to know the tastes of all audiences. Also, there is an arbitrary-ness to the process, a DJ can one day "discover" a record and everyone might want it and the value will shoot up. Or an entirely new audience might discover the other side. And there are some records that are very rare but hard to sell and would sell for a certain amount to the right people, while there are other records that are in demand.

I think one of the ways to do it is if you specialize in a subgenre so you know a lot about the records in that genre and know a lot of the other collectors.

[Roburt]

I believe a good 'standard' by which to judge the record buying scene is sweet soul.

Many on here will not value sweet soul ballads at all & would have unloaded such tracks bought blind not long after acquiring them.

For years, sweet soul 45 tracks (unless C/W a NS, SS, DS, MS or funk cut) sold for a few cents.

Then harmony group collectors started to buy them. More recently there has sprung up a whole swath of sweet soul collectors and so prices are climbing & some 45's are now much sought after.

But if a NS fan had received a collectable sweet soul 45 say 20 years ago, they would probably not have checked out if it was 'rare', they would have 'dumped it' if it wasn't to their liking. So they would have been happy to get rid of it for (say) 50p, whilst today a sweet soul collector might be willing to pay 250$ for a copy.

So it's all 'horses for courses' as they say.

I like SOME sweet soul (the Delfonics / Van Dykes are fine with me but Stylistics tracks I have a lot more trouble with).

As Boba knows the sweet soul 'market' but most on here don't .... perhaps it would be enlightening for him to give a quick rundown on that scene ...

.... how quickly (or not) it has built up, what are the 'in-demand' 45's at present and which of these are actually rare 45's.

Over to you Bob.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Roburt

[Pete S]

Quite nice, the Curtis Davis, but barely Northern Soul...

[John Reed]

Blimey, its gone down £50 since the 5th Edition of the price guide.

https://www.raresoulm...D._the_ARKETTES

[AlanB]

Blimey, its gone down £50 since the 5th Edition of the price guide.

https://www.raresoulm...D._the_ARKETTES

...and it's a $200 Buy It Now from Craig Moerer on ebay at the moment.

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

If I'd bought it blind for a couple of bob a few decades ago I wouldn't have been in any rush to move it on.

As Pete says it's hardly Northern, but personally I thought it was melodic, competent and considerably better than a lot of records that I regularly see people working themselves into an excited lather over on this site.

Twenty quid, and that's my final offer!...

[Sebastian]

here is an example of a record that seems to have gone from $300 to $30

https://www.popsike.c...nection&x=0&y=0

is it any less rare now than it was or is it just lack of demand ?

You do realise that there are two different 45s by Las Vegas Connection in the link that you are refering to?

This one is quite common and usually goes for $30-$60.

HEP' ME 136 - Las Vegas Connection - Give Me Your Love / Dancing With My Love Bones

I once sold two copies for $200 and $300 on eBay but those were freak results:

This one is however very rare:

HEP' ME 169 - Las Vegas Connection - Running Back To You / Can't Nobody Love Me Like You Do

There's been about 5 copies on eBay during the past 5 years. Whenever it turns up for sale it is always at least £200-£300. It's still just as rare as it's been for ages.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Sebastian

[Ged Parker]

You do realise that there are two different 45s by Las Vegas Connection in the link that you are refering to?

I was just about to point that out.

[Dylan]

------

Edited July 5, 2012 by dylan

[Dylan]

-----

Edited July 5, 2012 by dylan

[Dylan]

---

Edited July 5, 2012 by dylan

[Dylan]

You do realise that there are two different 45s by Las Vegas Connection in the link that you are refering to?

This one is quite common and usually goes for $30-$60.

HEP' ME 136 - Las Vegas Connection - Give Me Your Love / Dancing With My Love Bones

I once sold two copies for $200 and $300 on eBay but those were freak results:

This one is however very rare:

HEP' ME 169 - Las Vegas Connection - Running Back To You / Can't Nobody Love Me Like You Do

There's been about 5 copies on eBay during the past 5 years. Whenever it turns up for sale it is always at least £200-£300. It's still just as rare as it's been for ages.

yes seb I knew there were 2 on the label its the love bones record that went from your freak results down to the price it is now.

I thought those freak results of yours were typical of the price it used to sell for that was the mistake I made.

[boba]

If I'd bought it blind for a couple of bob a few decades ago I wouldn't have been in any rush to move it on.

As Pete says it's hardly Northern, but personally I thought it was melodic, competent and considerably better than a lot of records that I regularly see people working themselves into an excited lather over on this site.

Twenty quid, and that's my final offer!...

yeah, that's what i'm saying, it's decent not amazing. not the best record ever, not the worst record ever.

[boba]

As Boba knows the sweet soul 'market' but most on here don't .... perhaps it would be enlightening for him to give a quick rundown on that scene ...

.... how quickly (or not) it has built up, what are the 'in-demand' 45's at present and which of these are actually rare 45's.

Over to you Bob.

Don't tell me what to do!

I'm just kidding. The sweet soul market is pretty volatile, as people want the same obscure unknown records and once more people have them and they've been thoroughly bootlegged the price drops significantly. same thing happens with newer funk collectors. Also, with northern records. I think the market is very volatile now, and combined with the fact that nobody has money now, it's extremely hard to have any fixed guide.

[Pete S]

Got another Curtis Davis record, Your Love And My Money / Somebody - Bev Mar Records. Comes from Pittsburgh PA but has a ZTSC number.

Top side slightly funky sounds about 1968, B side quite a half decent deep type sound.

[Dylan]

would like to hear the flip to the ronnie record that started the thread if anybody has an mp3.....

it might be a decent ballad as well ?

[Sebastian]

yes seb I knew there were 2 on the label its the love bones record that went from your freak results down to the price it is now.

I thought those freak results of yours were typical of the price it used to sell for that was the mistake I made.

OK, I think it just sold for those high prices because it was still largely unknown when I sold those. Slightly later Craig Moerer had stock of it and were selling them relatively cheap.

I don't think that neither of the LVC 45s are poor within their genre though.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Sebastian