Southern_soul1 Posted July 4, 2012 Posted July 4, 2012 HI THERE, GOT THIS RECENTLY IN THE USA, WOULD YOU SAY THIS IS THE GREY ISSUE OR DJ COPY AS IT'S A TAD 'WORN'....MANY THANKS!
Southern_soul1 Posted July 4, 2012 Author Posted July 4, 2012 Cheers Pete! That's clarified that...Ta
Pete S Posted July 4, 2012 Posted July 4, 2012 Unusual to see a vinyl copy though, they're nearly always styrene.. 1
Bo Diddley Posted July 4, 2012 Posted July 4, 2012 I agree with Pete. All the DB Revilot discs I have are styrene. Here's the Grey and Demo you mention. Kev Bod
Kris Holmes Posted July 4, 2012 Posted July 4, 2012 Unusual to see a vinyl copy though, they're nearly always styrene.. looking at the 2nd picture i'm wondering if it's not just a really faded pink label?? but yeah, if it is a grey label copy on vinyl then it's a pretty rare variation. here is another thread on this 45:
Foi Posted February 25, 2015 Posted February 25, 2015 (edited) Got this grey copy from the USA for around $9 and was sold as original (doesnt mean a thing really!) and saw this post (that in a way has not got closure yet!) and just wanted to try and clarify the situation with Darrell Banks - Our Love grey issues on vinyl (not the usual styrene) I have an exact same copy as Southern_soul1, vinyl grey issue that looks like a worn out white demo but isnt as its lacks the obvious words " DJ Copy Not For Sale" on the label. There are known variations with regard to the pink issues but with regard to the grey issues (1st press) there is a Rose Batiste vinyl grey boot but as far as I know and others im sure Darrell Banks was not booted on grey vinyl, was it?! In the run out grooves the scratched in matrix reads "ZTSC107683" and "ZTSC107682" parallel to the RV-201 on the label, there is a scribble scratched in before the Z letters on both sides. Anyone out there that can shed light on the matter? Is this a boot or a legit first press grey copy on vinyl that was pressed at a different regional pressing plant?? Edited February 25, 2015 by foi
Chris L Posted February 25, 2015 Posted February 25, 2015 Got this grey copy from the USA for around $9 and was sold as original (doesnt mean a thing really!) and saw this post (that in a way has not got closure yet!) and just wanted to try and clarify the situation with Darrell Banks - Our Love grey issues on vinyl (not the usual styrene) I have an exact same copy as Southern_soul1, vinyl grey issue that looks like a worn out white demo but isnt as its lacks the obvious words " DJ Copy Not For Sale" on the label. There are known variations with regard to the pink issues but with regard to the grey issues (1st press) there is a Rose Batiste vinyl grey boot but as far as I know and others im sure Darrell Banks was not booted on grey vinyl, was it?! In the run out grooves the scratched in matrix reads "ZTSC107683" and "ZTSC107682" parallel to the RV-201 on the label, there is a scribble scratched in before the Z letters on both sides. Anyone out there that can shed light on the matter? Is this a boot or a legit first press grey copy on vinyl that was pressed at a different regional pressing plant?? I've never seen a vinyl copy but there are pink Revilots that were, thinking of the Parliaments and JJ Barnes - Our love. If you bought it in the US then it's 99.9% an original, those 70s Rose Batistes were made for the UK market and didn't genrally end up on the US market.
Foi Posted February 25, 2015 Posted February 25, 2015 Hi Chris, Yep Ive seen the styrene demo and the grey styrene copy physically in my hands, stamped and scratched in matrix but this grey vinyl copy is a little weird as Ive never heard of a grey bootleg of DB in the all the years that Ive been collecting (near on 37 years). Obviously there is the Rose Batiste vinyl boot, so I wonder if there are similarities between the two in the way that they were made i.e. feel of the vinyl, way the matrix is scratched in.....
Foi Posted February 25, 2015 Posted February 25, 2015 I've never seen a vinyl copy but there are pink Revilots that were, thinking of the Parliaments and JJ Barnes - Our love. If you bought it in the US then it's 99.9% an original, those 70s Rose Batistes were made for the UK market and didn't genrally end up on the US market. Thats the logic i saw in it as well....the guy that sold it to me thought it was a promo, but obviously isnt. I wonder if theres anyone out there that knows for sure if grey vinyl issues were actually pressed as originals? There is the train of thought that says styrene was used in the industry as it was cheaper therefore profits were gained by using it...so...were the grey vinyl copies pressed at another plant in another region of the USA?? Anyone an expert out there on the REVILOT label??
Mal C Posted February 25, 2015 Posted February 25, 2015 maybe its been mentioned, grey label first, pink after, as Pete said DJ copies say so on the label...
Foi Posted February 25, 2015 Posted February 25, 2015 (edited) maybe its been mentioned, grey label first, pink after, as Pete said DJ copies say so on the label... Mal, yep its been mentioned on this post and this one but we still havent got down to the matter of clarifying whether the grey "vinyl" version of DB is an original, just like its well known "styrene" counterpart?? More to the point what's the background info behind this vinyl format? My general feeling is that in an obscure way its an original, as the Rose Batiste boot is more of a deeper silvery grey shade and not a light grey shade.....but then I'm no expert on the Revilot label! Edited February 25, 2015 by foi
Chris L Posted February 25, 2015 Posted February 25, 2015 Mal, yep its been mentioned on this post and this one but we still havent got down to the matter of clarifying whether the grey "vinyl" version of DB is an original, just like its well known "styrene" counterpart?? More to the point what's the background info behind this vinyl format? My general feeling is that in an obscure way its an original, as the Rose Batiste boot is more of a deeper silvery grey shade and not a light grey shade.....but then I'm no expert on the Revilot label! It must an original, it got legitimately re-issued so many times and was never a hard record to get, booters wouldn't have made any money. I just checked my 2 copies of pink JJ Barnes Revilots, they're vinyl with scratched matrix.
The Yank Posted February 25, 2015 Posted February 25, 2015 I live in the States and I also have a grey "vinyl" copy of "Open..." . There's also a cut out hole in the label. I'm guessing that when the record became popular, that vinyl copies were pressed.
Foi Posted February 25, 2015 Posted February 25, 2015 It must an original, it got legitimately re-issued so many times and was never a hard record to get, booters wouldn't have made any money. I just checked my 2 copies of pink JJ Barnes Revilots, they're vinyl with scratched matrix. Chris, I agree thats my thinking, why would there be a boot of a record thats not even rare as it was re-issued so many times?!
Mal C Posted February 25, 2015 Posted February 25, 2015 When a label makes an order with a pressing plant, would they be given the option of Vinyl or Styrene, or would it have been pressed in what ever the plant had? and I say this as a way to explain the variations, as we know different plants would have used all types of plastics to produce records, is it that arbitrary... Mal
Foi Posted February 25, 2015 Posted February 25, 2015 (edited) When a label makes an order with a pressing plant, would they be given the option of Vinyl or Styrene, or would it have been pressed in what ever the plant had? and I say this as a way to explain the variations, as we know different plants would have used all types of plastics to produce records, is it that arbitrary... Mal Overall styrene was seen as a cheaper option for pressing records as it was supposed to be an easier and less costly process which in turn produced more profit for recording companies. I'm guessing some pressing plants used vinyl whilst others chose to use styrene, hence is maybe why we have the east coast -west coast variations on some labels....Apparently styrene produces a better quality recording but easily degrades over the years. Quite frankly i hate the stuff but theres no getting away from it as some original releases were only ever made on styrene! Edited February 25, 2015 by foi 1
Mal C Posted February 25, 2015 Posted February 25, 2015 (edited) we all hate styrene, that said I'm sure there were different grades, as I have some 45's that sound great and have lasted long, suppose Mercury were the biggest culprits, some of their styrene releases were shockingly thin and bendy... its good the music was far far better!! back to DB, I've had a vinyl Grey one before, sold it in the 9ts, but I'm with you, I dont think those are boots... M Edited February 25, 2015 by Mal C
Foi Posted February 25, 2015 Posted February 25, 2015 (edited) we all hate styrene, that said I'm sure there were different grades, as I have some 45's that sound great and have lasted long, suppose Mercury were the biggest culprits, some of their styrene releases were shockingly thin and bendy... its good the music was far far better!! back to DB, I've had a vinyl Grey one before, sold it in the 9ts, but I'm with you, I dont think those are boots... M One thing is sure is that they seem to be less common than the styrene issues, one look at Google,Popsike and Collectors Frenzy tells us that...so I guess Im wishing its an original as it didnt cost that much and plays great. Thanks for the input. Edited February 25, 2015 by foi
Kev John Posted February 25, 2015 Posted February 25, 2015 Unusual to see a vinyl copy though, they're nearly always styrene.. Pete i picked up 1 of these at a record fair on vinyl i'm pretty sure if they where clean copies the be White labels not grey lookin' atb Kev
Tlscapital Posted February 27, 2015 Posted February 27, 2015 Chris, I agree thats my thinking, why would there be a boot of a record thats not even rare as it was re-issued so many times?! They did bootlegs in the USA back THEN to cash-in on a record that would be in demand locally or further at anytime after it's "birth". Just like reissues... Not implying this DB grey vinyl is a boot though. I just don't know. I'm stupid-happy with my cute pink cheap copy.
Foi Posted February 27, 2015 Posted February 27, 2015 They did bootlegs in the USA back THEN to cash-in on a record that would be in demand locally or further at anytime after it's "birth". Just like reissues... Not implying this DB grey vinyl is a boot though. I just don't know. I'm stupid-happy with my cute pink cheap copy. tlscaptial, I see what ya saying... I find it strange though that even with the accuracy of bootleg/price guides that have been published there is no definitive info on this variation of DB on the grey "vinyl" Revilot format?! Surely there is someone out there that can clarify the matter once and for all ?
Tlscapital Posted February 27, 2015 Posted February 27, 2015 tlscaptial, I see what ya saying... I find it strange though that even with the accuracy of bootleg/price guides that have been published there is no definitive info on this variation of DB on the grey "vinyl" Revilot format?! Surely there is someone out there that can clarify the matter once and for all ? Not all bootlegs are featured in "guides" I believe (don't have any so I don't know once again) and I would doubt that 'baby love' by the Supremes on Motown for example is commented in those guides while it was bootlegged back then in the USA ! I believe that those guides set the focus on the bootlegs contemporary to the northern soul scene and other likes but not so much on those "big sellers". I'd be curious to see what about that grey vinyl DB... The few vinyl Revilot 45's mentioned here above are the real deal but they are also a lot later numbers...
Guest illtalbeats Posted February 27, 2015 Posted February 27, 2015 Images of the different variations here: https://www.45cat.com/record/rv201
Foi Posted February 27, 2015 Posted February 27, 2015 (edited) Images of the different variations here: https://www.45cat.com/record/rv201 Thanks for the link much appreciated....but still no definitive info on the background of the grey "vinyl" issue with the scratched in matrix. The other grey variant, the styrene format has the ZTSC matrix machine stamped. Could be a regional pressing plant thing or maybe the grey vinyl variants were the first issues and they ran out of vinyl and decided to press on styrene...?! Could be the explanation.... But then could be that its a bootleg copy (though I feel its highly unlikely) not really fussed at the end of the day as it only cost £8 so am a happy chappy either way. The recording is clean and sounds great so thats the main thing! Edited February 27, 2015 by foi
Guest illtalbeats Posted February 27, 2015 Posted February 27, 2015 Thanks for the link much appreciated....but still no definitive info on the background of the grey "vinyl" issue with the scratched in matrix. The other grey variant, the styrene format has the ZTSC matrix machine stamped. Could be a regional pressing plant thing or maybe the grey vinyl variants were the first issues and they ran out of vinyl and decided to press on styrene...?! Could be the explanation.... But then could be that its a bootleg copy (though I feel its highly unlikely) not really fussed at the end of the day as it only cost £8 so am a happy chappy either way. The recording is clean and sounds great so thats the main thing! I recently purchased a salmon colored copy and the matrix is scratched, not stamped. I was initially worried it was a bootleg, but it matches the same feel as my other Revilot singles so assuming it's styrene?
Foi Posted February 27, 2015 Posted February 27, 2015 (edited) I recently purchased a salmon colored copy and the matrix is scratched, not stamped. I was initially worried it was a bootleg, but it matches the same feel as my other Revilot singles so assuming it's styrene? You cant mistake styrene, has a paper label stuck on that you can feel the edge of with a fingertip. Generally styrene records also have a thicker outer edge. If its styrene and the matrix is scratched in then I reckon its a Revilot original (though pink ones with this particular DB tune were considered to be second issues). The Okeh label has similar variations where the matrix on originals is scratched in and others machine stamped. Edited February 27, 2015 by foi
Nick Soule Posted February 28, 2015 Posted February 28, 2015 You can find the pink label vinyl variation in Detroit here and there, but it's usually pretty rough. I've never seen the grey label vinyl, but I wouldn't doubt that it's a 60s pressing. No idea what came first. I believe most of the Revilot catalogue is on styrene until #222 when they switched to the pink label vinyl issues.
Tlscapital Posted February 28, 2015 Posted February 28, 2015 Thanks for the link much appreciated....but still no definitive info on the background of the grey "vinyl" issue with the scratched in matrix. The other grey variant, the styrene format has the ZTSC matrix machine stamped. Could be a regional pressing plant thing or maybe the grey vinyl variants were the first issues and they ran out of vinyl and decided to press on styrene...?! Could be the explanation.... But then could be that its a bootleg copy (though I feel its highly unlikely) not really fussed at the end of the day as it only cost £8 so am a happy chappy either way. The recording is clean and sounds great so thats the main thing! Demos are styrene so rather likely the other way around. If it's a legit contemporary rush release to the firsts rounds of pressings it could have been done just before the pink variation at another pressing plant. What I find odd somehow with this grey vinyl copy is that the label is a perfect match (same stamper ?) when it should have it's own stamper/typo/credits and infos order then... just like the Parliament and JJ Barnes ones...
Tiberius Posted February 28, 2015 Posted February 28, 2015 Any sign of an ARP stamp in the deadwax on these DB vinyl copies?
The Yank Posted February 28, 2015 Posted February 28, 2015 On my grey label/black vinyl copy , the only info in the dead wax is : ZTSC 107683 for "Open......." and ZTSC 107682 for "Our Love..." There is something scratched out to the left next to the info.
45cellar Posted February 28, 2015 Posted February 28, 2015 Any sign of an ARP stamp in the deadwax on these DB vinyl copies? I wondered if the "Arp" Pressing Plant may be involved. Here is an IMPACT Vinyl copy with the "Arp" Matrix stamp VINYL However, normally you can tell from a scan, as the label credits are fully Left and Right justified.
Garethx Posted February 28, 2015 Posted February 28, 2015 The Darrell Banks are all Columbia pressings. Think all the Columbia 45 plants had the capability to press both styrene and vinyl, so I don't think this is anything particularly unusual.
45cellar Posted February 28, 2015 Posted February 28, 2015 The Darrell Banks are all Columbia pressings. Think all the Columbia 45 plants had the capability to press both styrene and vinyl, so I don't think this is anything particularly unusual.Thanks for that. It would also explain the labels. As is the case here. STYRENE VINYL
Tiberius Posted February 28, 2015 Posted February 28, 2015 As I remember, and I could be wrong, ARP pressed all the Revilot vinyl releases from #222 onwards when the move from styrene seems to have been made. Not that this proves anything other than the DB release discussed here was pressed elsewhere for whatever reason.
Garethx Posted February 28, 2015 Posted February 28, 2015 Bear in mInd that Revilot 222 (J.J. Barnes 'Our Love') is also available as a styrene Columbia press with multicoloured label too. From then on all the releases are ARP presses.
Foi Posted February 28, 2015 Posted February 28, 2015 (edited) Demos are styrene so rather likely the other way around. If it's a legit contemporary rush release to the firsts rounds of pressings it could have been done just before the pink variation at another pressing plant. What I find odd somehow with this grey vinyl copy is that the label is a perfect match (same stamper ?) when it should have it's own stamper/typo/credits and infos order then... just like the Parliament and JJ Barnes ones... What i meant by "first issue" was the first lot of issue copies to be pressed after the demo run. I reckon that a different pressing plant could be the answer. Similar to the case of Okeh styrene original variations i.e. 'machine stamped' and 'scratched in' matrix on originals. Maybe its a case of some greys were pressed on styrene (machine stamped) at one plant and vinyl (scratched) at another, using different matrix systems, i.e. machine and scratched Edited February 28, 2015 by foi
Cck Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 i'm pretty sure the dress is gold and white but the issue is certainly blue and black 2
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