How Long Does It Take To 'really' Know The Width/depth Of The Soul Genre?

[Ljblanken]

I have only been actively collecting soul 45s for about fifteen years, and only have about two thousand records. I am shocked every time I read a thread on here and I've never even heard of 90% of the records people are talking about (which is also good, because I feel I will never run out of things to find).

My question is, how long does it take to get your head around the whole thing? Does anyone out there know so much that they never hear of records that they don't already know?

I remember seeing an interview with an English guy on YouTube and he said "at that point I decided I wanted to get ALL of the black American soul/R&B 45s that are available". Is such a thing possible? Has anyone come close? Or even if they can't own it all, at least have heard it all?

[John Reed]

I don't think you ever get your head around the whole thing. The amount of black music made, even from just the 60's/70's was vast and I'm sure everyone would agree that no-one can/would know everything and if anyone did know them all, how boring would it be knowing there was nothing new to discover. Why would you want to collect all R&B releases as IMO for every good record, two bad or average were released. Unless you're a label completest,just buy what you like don't worry about the size of your collection compared to others and enjoy being in the musical dark, as for me its the best way to be.

Edited June 24, 2012 by John Reed

[Ljblanken]

I agree I would never want to own too many records. Over the years, as I buy more records, I try to "prune" some deadweight (like a gardner).

And black music is vast! I used to collect rockabilly, and after a few years I felt I had hit rock-bottom in quality. Any new things I heard were truly subpar.

But it blows my mind how much people know! I wonder how many hrs a week they've spent listening, and you tubing, and reading!

[Chalky]

Whoever you are and whatever collection you have, you never stop learning.

[Guest MrC]

hasnt anyone ever told you size doesn't matter?

[Agentsmith]

afro american music in the form of what we interpret as r&b has been with us for as little as...lets say, 5 decades, give or take the mid to latter half of the 50's, though it is increasingly referred to as doowop, yet the most prevailent and prestigeous era for the music we commonly acknowledge as "dance" will, forever be, the 60's...when the whole ethic of racemusic being acccepted internationally, exploded in dynamic fashion via motown and the subsequent pyramid effect impacting upon wannabe artisits and writer/producers throughout the states resulting in a myriad of labels and recordings that gave us british, what we have today.of course, it took the plundering of america's unsuspecting yet disregarded treasure for over three decades, before they finally realised they had created something worthwhile...they now know and fully understand why we have been, and still are, on the most heavenly and sublimnal trip anyone could imagine in the name of truthfully pure and evocative music and lyrics that still make us want to pound the dancefloor with not a zimmerframe in sight!. the joy of collecting and discovery eternally refreshes and re-invents...there is absolutely no doubt that what america gave us and the tools we used to forge the northernsoul phenomenon will endure like the stars so long as there are generations who are invigorated by its fascination.

in reality the 70's probably spawned more material than we could ever imagine and thats not deriding the incalculable output of the previous decade, but the irony of economic deprivation ( principly, the oil shortage of 1974 ), put paid to a plausible vinyl vault as the furnaces melted it down and the possiblities were lost for all-time.

had this not come to pass, we may have had an even greater but significantly more enjoyable headache on endless quests for illusive tunes in equally diminutive numbers. lets just settle for what we've got now.....an endless quest for illusive tunes....period!

[Ljblanken]

So.... Given that tons of British folks have been searching-studying-listening to soul 45s for at least thirty or forty years, who in your opnion simply knows the most music (not necessarily prices, etc , but knows the songs)? Like if you sat in a cafe and just chatted, they just couldn't be stumped?

Here n California I always think of Dick Vivian (owns Rooky Ricardo's record shop in SF). Whenever I bring up or mention any record (especially girl group stuff), he immediately starts singing it (way out of tune). He just seems to know everything!

[Guest JJMMWGDuPree]

I agree I would never want to own too many records. Over the years, as I buy more records, I try to "prune" some deadweight (like a gardner).

I never chuck a record. There's been a few that I didn't realise that I liked for years, then I'd suddenly hear one on the radio and think "Hey! I've got that.... Somewhere..."

[Guest Dave Turner]

"at that point I decided I wanted to get ALL of the black American soul/R&B 45s that are available".

Leo, that would be Tim Brown. 4.47 in the clip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW6-Nuon9-E

No one could ever know it all. As far as knowing the songs some folks may be really clued up about Northern, Crossover or other dancefloor friendly records but way out of the loop when it comes to straight soul, ballads, deep soul etc, and of course vice versa.

Knowing of the record, I can think of a few dealers where there isn't much that hasn't been through their hands, as far as 45s go anyway.

John Anderson, Manship, Tim Brown

Edited June 24, 2012 by Dave Turner

[Agentsmith]

"at that point I decided I wanted to get ALL of the black American soul/R&B 45s that are available".

Leo, that would be Tim Brown. 4.47 in the clip

[media=]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW6-Nuon9-E

No one could ever know it all. As far as knowing the songs some folks may be really clued up about Northern, Crossover or other dancefloor friendly records but way out of the loop when it comes to straight soul, ballads, deep soul etc, and of course vice versa.

Knowing of the record, I can think of a few dealers where there isn't much that hasn't been through their hands, as far as 45s go anyway.

John Anderson, Manship, Tim Brown

correct, they are probably our foremost intelligencia because they have dedicated a good part of their lives to telling the story through their investigative work and the proliferation of information from countless sources around the world, without their endeavours, a good many deejays wouldn't have been responsible for breaking tunes that are now household names, though many adventurists from behind the decks have blazed their own trail independantly to the states in search of the perennial exclusivity, the bulk of what we know and have heard, has come via these sources...oh, and lets not forget ian levine...this is so similar to other threads on here, the hard and conclusive fact is though, no human can confess to being an oracle, even the soulsource network...if used as a library,still couldnt account for everything as, nearly 50 years on stuff is still turning up and thats not including whats under our very noses thats been ignored and overlooked for years.

[Johnmcc]

There was more soul music recorded/produced/released last week than any person could listen to or collect in any format.

This week will be the same, ad infinitum.

No wonder the sensible ones stick to a favourite few sounds.

[Guest Matt Male]

So.... Given that tons of British folks have been searching-studying-listening to soul 45s for at least thirty or forty years, who in your opnion simply knows the most music (not necessarily prices, etc , but knows the songs)? Like if you sat in a cafe and just chatted, they just couldn't be stumped?

Nobody. There is no one who knows everything. I know people who've been around 40 odd years still hearing sounds they've missed in the past. Personally I hear things new to my ears all the time and so does everyone I bet (although there are plenty out there who would rather only listen to records they know).

Edited June 24, 2012 by Matt Male

[Ljblanken]

Where did you learn the most about soul? Going to clubs? Researching on your own? Ransacking your friends collection?

Just curious, as I never had clubs to go to, and friends listened to other genres, so I've only picked things up on my own (YouTube, online playlists, discog websites, etc).

[Ian Dewhirst]

You never know everything. It's just too vast. There's some records which I saw in the 70's that I haven't seen since. I hear stuff every week and think, how did I possibly miss that at the time. Also, through the course of several collections and a few bulk purchases over 45 odd years I've probably had 200,000 records through my hands. Dave Hill and Greg Belson's "Holy Spirit" album alone intoduced me to another 40 tunes I'd never heard before,as do many of the Ace/Kent, Numero, Grapevine and other releases these days. And I'm still finding fantastic records on my shelves which I'd maybe only played once 30 years ago. Or I'll check an LP out and there'll be a brilliant track which I'd dismissed or never heard before. It's endless............

Ian D

[Ljblanken]

You never know everything. It's just too vast. There's some records which I saw in the 70's that I haven't seen since. I hear stuff every week and think, how did I possibly miss that at the time. Also, through the course of several collections and a few bulk purchases over 45 odd years I've probably had 200,000 records through my hands. Dave Hill and Greg Belson's "Holy Spirit" album alone intoduced me to another 40 tunes I'd never heard before,as do many of the Ace/Kent, Numero, Grapevine and other releases these days. And I'm still finding fantastic records on my shelves which I'd maybe only played once 30 years ago. Or I'll check an LP out and there'll be a brilliant track which I'd dismissed or never heard before. It's endless............

Ian D

Did you say 200,000?! My wife is ready to strangle me in my sleep cuz a have a couple thousand. She says if I get to five thousand, she will put me in a loony bin.

[Chalky]

Where did you learn the most about soul? Going to clubs? Researching on your own? Ransacking your friends collection?

Just curious, as I never had clubs to go to, and friends listened to other genres, so I've only picked things up on my own (YouTube, online playlists, discog websites, etc).

Any source available to you but the best way is actually the records themselves. That is how many of us learnt what we know.

[Agentsmith]

You never know everything. It's just too vast. There's some records which I saw in the 70's that I haven't seen since. I hear stuff every week and think, how did I possibly miss that at the time. Also, through the course of several collections and a few bulk purchases over 45 odd years I've probably had 200,000 records through my hands. Dave Hill and Greg Belson's "Holy Spirit" album alone intoduced me to another 40 tunes I'd never heard before,as do many of the Ace/Kent, Numero, Grapevine and other releases these days. And I'm still finding fantastic records on my shelves which I'd maybe only played once 30 years ago. Or I'll check an LP out and there'll be a brilliant track which I'd dismissed or never heard before. It's endless............

Ian D

makes the hairs stand up on the back of your neck, dosn't it ian?, the adrenalin rush is perpetual, even after nearly 5 decades. we say that love is a drug...well, the love of northernsoul is a drug that will never diminish,...it dosnt matter what corner of the globe your life may take you, you're never far from a tune, its an internationally accepted stimulent..it de-stresses me, i can testify to that....once introduced you can never get out, its in the blood for life and you feed it with vinyl...who needs botox or anatomy sculpting to keep you chipper?, the only plastic thats good looking is black, shiny and 7"in diameter...WHAT A FIGURE!

Edited June 24, 2012 by AGENTSMITH

[phillyDaveG]

At a rough count I reckon I have somewhere near 1/4 million tracks including vinyl & CDs ranging from the late fifties to today, and I would say my knowledge doesn't even begin to scratch the surface, I bet I don't know 99.9%+ of stuff. The more you know, the more you realise you know sweet FA. That, however is the beauty of it, we'll never run out of tunes to excite us.

[Kris Holmes]

yeah, it's just so massive really, it's a fool's errand to think you're gonna get to the "end" of it all. the best way to learn was just talking with other collectors, listening to their records and just going to the US & digging through tens of thousands of 45s at a time. I started collecting in my early teens around 1990 & must have flipped through millions of 45s since then. I keep a very small selection which sits at around 5000 45s in my own collection, but it's just a tiny drop in a big bucket of what's out there. Once you start getting outside the confines of straight soul & into things like Gospel it just get's more mind-boggling, the amount of unexplored stuff is just ridiculous.

[Robbk]

I have only been actively collecting soul 45s for about fifteen years, and only have about two thousand records. I am shocked every time I read a thread on here and I've never even heard of 90% of the records people are talking about (which is also good, because I feel I will never run out of things to find).

My question is, how long does it take to get your head around the whole thing? Does anyone out there know so much that they never hear of records that they don't already know?

I remember seeing an interview with an English guy on YouTube and he said "at that point I decided I wanted to get ALL of the black American soul/R&B 45s that are available". Is such a thing possible? Has anyone come close? Or even if they can't own it all, at least have heard it all?

I've been buying and collecting Black American music since 1953. I've had many thousands of 45s, 78s and LPs in my collection. I've looked through literally millions of records. I (like many record collectors I know) have a "photographic memory" for record labels, label catalogue numbers, record pressing plant numbers, the names of artists, producers, arrangers, songwiters, names of music publishing companies, the sounds of singers' voices, sounds of musicians, musicians' names, names of record distributors and record company owners, lists of recording dates/artists/songs, lists of pressing jobs, sales lists, wants lists. I searched for records all across USA and Canada from 1953-1972, and a little bit in UK and Europe from 1966-1980. I NEVER stop seeing and hearing "new to me" R&B and Soul songs and pressed records, which I somehow missed during my searching years. We may never know how many different R& B and Soul records were pressed on plastic (and there are always the hundreds of thousands more that were just recorded and made it only to tape and acetate or vinyl studio demos). NO ONE has the physical brain or time in his/her lifetime to know even 60% of what exists. I'm constantly "discovering" new-to-me classics from the '50s and '60s, that sound better to me than 90 % of what was released commercially.

[boba]

I think the people who think they know most everything are the people who really know the least as they don't comprehend how vast the space is. I think there is a period of collecting after a few years that some people experience (e.g. me) when they feel that way because they have seen all the common local records so they feel like they know a lot when in reality they know very little. It's definitely true that the more you know the more you know you don't know. I learn a lot every day.

Also, assuming someone managed to collect every soul record available with unlimited funds they still wouldn't know everything because there is a not insignificant number of records that were pressed, never distributed, and either thrown out or kept in someone's home. Every year there are new "discoveries" of these records where someone finds the one or two stray copies that got out. I'm pretty sure even with 78s there are new discoveries every year.

[Kris Holmes]

I've been buying and collecting Black American music since 1953.

far out, how old are you!?!

You've been collecting since before my Dad was born

[boba]

far out, how old are you!?!

You've been collecting since before my Dad was born

he also did motown LP cover art

[Ljblanken]

I've been buying and collecting Black American music since 1953. I've had many thousands of 45s, 78s and LPs in my collection. I've looked through literally millions of records. I (like many record collectors I know) have a "photographic memory" for record labels, label catalogue numbers, record pressing plant numbers, the names of artists, producers, arrangers, songwiters, names of music publishing companies, the sounds of singers' voices, sounds of musicians, musicians' names, names of record distributors and record company owners, lists of recording dates/artists/songs, lists of pressing jobs, sales lists, wants lists. I searched for records all across USA and Canada from 1953-1972, and a little bit in UK and Europe from 1966-1980. I NEVER stop seeing and hearing "new to me" R&B and Soul songs and pressed records, which I somehow missed during my searching years. We may never know how many different R& B and Soul records were pressed on plastic (and there are always the hundreds of thousands more that were just recorded and made it only to tape and acetate or vinyl studio demos). NO ONE has the physical brain or time in his/her lifetime to know even 60% of what exists. I'm constantly "discovering" new-to-me classics from the '50s and '60s, that sound better to me than 90 % of what was released commercially.

It is interesting that you mention both memory from sight (labels, etc) and memory from sound (tunes and singers voices). I wonder how those go together (or not).

My wife, for example, can hear a song once and know the tune and lyrics perfectly (but can't recall the artist or title, let alone label or anything), whereas I have a bit of the other side (visual). I do research by trade, and am used to looking things up and making lists and memorizing information, etc. but I will often find a record in my collection, and know that I've listened to it a few times, but can't recall what it sounds like for the life of me.

Do you think most collectors use sight, or hearing, or both?

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

No one could ever know it all.

...given the unvarnished truth of that statement, it's quite remarkable how many people think they do...

Edited June 25, 2012 by TONY ROUNCE

[boba]

...given the unvarnished truth of that statement, it's quite remarkable how many people think they do...

man, i knew this dude named tony that thought he knew everything

[Robbk]

far out, how old are you!?!

You've been collecting since before my Dad was born

I'll be 66 years old in November. Actually, the records I started getting in 1953 were first bought for me by my parents. I first started buying them (45s) with my own money in 1955, from the 10¢ bargain bins in record shops, and cheap 5 and 10¢ records in thrift shops and junk stores, and 10¢ sales at Woolworth's (started about 1960). My parents had a lot of Jazz and Blues 78s. They liked Black-American music. Naturally, when "Soul" music came in in the early '60s, I liked that, too. But I had gotten into the obscure 45s very early in life because all 45s were cheap (the way I bought them), and I could gamble on them without listening to them (although, usually the record shops, and even most of the thrift shops had record players we could use to play them). So, you Brits have a stereotyped idea of us Canadians and Americans regarding what music we knew about. I had thousands of obscure Soul records in my collection before many of you were wearing long pants.

[Steve G]

Are we talking about records or are we talking about the music, or both?

Some people know a lot about records (to the ones already mentioned I'd add Butch, Andy Dyson), others a lot about artists (Tony Rounce for example).

But the fact that no one knows everything or anything approaching it, is what keeps this all SO interesting. How boring it would be if people knew everything there was to know.

[Robbk]

It is interesting that you mention both memory from sight (labels, etc) and memory from sound (tunes and singers voices). I wonder how those go together (or not).

My wife, for example, can hear a song once and know the tune and lyrics perfectly (but can't recall the artist or title, let alone label or anything), whereas I have a bit of the other side (visual). I do research by trade, and am used to looking things up and making lists and memorizing information, etc. but I will often find a record in my collection, and know that I've listened to it a few times, but can't recall what it sounds like for the life of me.

Do you think most collectors use sight, or hearing, or both?

I don't know "most collectors", so I can't answer that question. I think both skills are very helpful in collecting. Like all skills, I imagine every collector is better at one than the other. Some might be very strong at one or the other, and other people the reverse. We use that very skill on this forum to get a handle on whether or not an "unknown" lead singer of of a particular group might be X solo artist. We just had such a controversy when someone mentioned that the lead singer of The Tempests might have also been lead singer of a single song with another group.

Several of us old-timers at Soulful Detroit Forum put our heads (and ears) together to make an educated guess that Harry Gates (of The Caravelles on Starmaker) was also the lead singer of Detroit's first "Dramatics" group (Crackerjack Records), when there was no one left alive to confirm or deny it (Joe Hunter, Fred Brown).

[George G]

I started listening to soul music in late 1968, I remember hearing stuff like Barbara Acklin - Am I the same girl (and "Soulful Strut" a lot more), Vanguards - the thought of losing your love, Dells - There Is and others from that time. I remember hearing "25 Miles" for weeks, it's my pick for the best uptempo soul recording of all time. I was 8 years old at the time. I really liked the early Philly stuff like the Delfonics and Moments, and the Five Stairsteps, but it wasn't until I heard the Chi-Lites (all this would have been around 1970 into 1971) that I was able to appreciate the incredible artistry - same with Al Green and the best of the hitmakers of the era. I lost interest in soul music when the disco era kicked in. It took me about 10 years to come back around to it and start to re-appreciate the stuff. I don't think you need to hear 1000s of obscure records to appreciate soul music, but hearing a wide range of the artists from the biggest to the most obscure does help. Most of my 'peers' have a different perspective as they were too young to hear the stuff in real time as it evolved, their take on records like "Across 110th Street" is different than mine, to them it's some 'rare groove' 'blaxploitation essential', to me it's just an above average radio oldie.

It took me a couple years to 'get' Northern Soul, I remember buying a couple Goldmine/Soul Supply comps in a Boston record store (yes, as your jaws drop with the realization that vintage NS comps on LP were sold in US record stores, I am proof that it happened...) back in the late 1980s, that really changed my perspective for NS. I think like anything else it's best to listen to a wide variety of stuff over a period of several years to let things settle in and have time for them to grow. Having listened to a lot of the music in 'real time' evolution I was able to develop my own tastes without having to swim though a tidal wave of MP3s. I'm personally glad I did although it would be nice to be 10-15 years younger right now.

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

man, i knew this dude named tony that thought he knew everything

...as the great Charles Edward Anderson Berry once so memorably sang...

"It Wasn't Me"

[boba]

...as the great Charles Edward Anderson Berry once so memorably sang...

"It Wasn't Me"

I had to google that name to know what you were talking about. See, just now I learned something.

[Kris Holmes]

[Raremusicdirect]

Agree with whats gone before from those at it far longer than me...............I started on the label collecting route intially (completist) and then switched to just the tunes I couldn't do with out........I have a much smaller "collection" as a result [which it just registers as ], but am happy to add to slowly and steadily over time.

Its really useful to have all the wise owls around, most of whom are all to happy to help and share their knowledge - its part of the joy of records - the constant learning and hearing of new sounds...............

I don't think I'd have time to listen to everything available (life time wise) so wouldn't worry to much about targets in that way - just focus on the tunes you love and only buy those is my advice (whatever the current trends) - that way you will fully appreciate what you have (regardless of value also)............

[Dylan]

I think the people who think they know most everything are the people who really know the least as they don't comprehend how vast the space is. I think there is a period of collecting after a few years that some people experience (e.g. me) when they feel that way because they have seen all the common local records so they feel like they know a lot when in reality they know very little. It's definitely true that the more you know the more you know you don't know. I learn a lot every day.

this is all very true.

its such an enourmous topic. Even doing just 1965 to 1970 would be a never ending quest.

[Soulsaddler]

I had to google that name to know what you were talking about. See, just now I learned something.

Yeah, me too.

Really interesting thread, this

[Ljblanken]

George G listed the Vanguards "thought of losing your love" as something he just heard on the radio as a youngster. I never heard of it, and saw a vid on YouTube and immediately found a copy on eBay. I thought "what a cool record, I bet this is totally obscure!" ...and now i can't believe it is a common song. This doesn't make me like it any less (I still think the totally disparate singing styles contained in it are really interesting), but just blows my mind how much stuff is out there, and how much of it was actually popular.

Just beginning to learn how much I don't know!

[Ljblanken]

Oh, one more (very happy) example of ignorance coupled with serendipity...

I listened to this song "You better watch out" by Dorothy berry on a Belgian popcorn site. I bid on a couple copies on eBay and lost each one... And then finally won a mint copy from a guy in Japan. When it finally came it occurred to me to flip it and check out the other side....and it was even better! (ain't that love)

It was like Christmas....

[Kris Holmes]

George G listed the Vanguards "thought of losing your love" as something he just heard on the radio as a youngster. I never heard of it, and saw a vid on YouTube and immediately found a copy on eBay. I thought "what a cool record, I bet this is totally obscure!" ...and now i can't believe it is a common song. This doesn't make me like it any less (I still think the totally disparate singing styles contained in it are really interesting), but just blows my mind how much stuff is out there, and how much of it was actually popular.

Just beginning to learn how much I don't know!

Yeah, The Vanguards 45 is probably one of my favorite records of all time, I love how it sounds like the deeper voiced lead guy is about to eat the microphone

[Guest Matt Male]

I think even with the world's biggest warehouse, full to the brim of vinyl, with one copy of everything, it would take more than one lifetime to go through it.

But man would it be worth it to try.

[Jumpinjoan]

Yeah, The Vanguards 45 is probably one of my favorite records of all time, I love how it sounds like the deeper voiced lead guy is about to eat the microphone

I always picture people being knocked over backwards as his voice hits them it's that powerful! Incredible vocals.

[boba]

George G listed the Vanguards "thought of losing your love" as something he just heard on the radio as a youngster. I never heard of it, and saw a vid on YouTube and immediately found a copy on eBay. I thought "what a cool record, I bet this is totally obscure!" ...and now i can't believe it is a common song. This doesn't make me like it any less (I still think the totally disparate singing styles contained in it are really interesting), but just blows my mind how much stuff is out there, and how much of it was actually popular.

I'm actually surprised at this because the a-side "It's too late for love" (one of the all-time great sweet soul 45s) was the hit side. Maybe locally it got flipped over (this happened with some records in Chicago). "Somebody please" charted nationally on the R&B charts.

[Robbk]

I'm actually surprised at this because the a-side "It's too late for love" (one of the all-time great sweet soul 45s) was the hit side. Maybe locally it got flipped over (this happened with some records in Chicago). "Somebody please" charted nationally on the R&B charts.

I only remember them playing "It's Too Late For Love" on WVON, and not the flip. It was a decent sized hit. I believe they came to Chi-Town on tour.

[Little-stevie]

Now aint this a real topic to read..

My respect to those dedicated souls out there...

Mind blowing indeed what some folk know...

[Guest JJMMWGDuPree]

nearly 50 years on stuff is still turning up and thats not including whats under our very noses thats been ignored and overlooked for years.

Dusty Springfield - Go ahead on. My mum had it, but whatever was on the 'a' side it was something I didn't like and it never occurred to me to flip it. The first time I heard it was after I bought mum a Dusty CD for Christmas.

Whenever I mention it people go "What? You never heard that?"

Actually, some people are a bit ruder than that, but they're just snobs...