The Right To Reply

[Roger Williams]

Are you saying you know all those records on our Soul in the South playlist & they are all crap..if that's the case then you should have never got involved in Soul music in the 1st place....At a guess I should imagine that the crap you've listened to never gets plays anyway. What about the crap I've heard at Oldies Nites in the past...Gary Lewis & The Playboys, Frankie Bloody Valli & the loads & loads of Blue Eyed Pop music that gets passed of as Classics on the Oldies Only Scene...it's not even Soul Music !!! Wash your ears out cause it seems to me anything you don't know is shit....if you hate Soul Music that much, go & listen to the same Black Sabbath Paraniod LP over & over again for the next 30 years. The reason people don't turn up in droves is cause they can't stand listening to records they don't know...so how the hell can they be into music FULL STOP !!!

I quoted you, Rod, but I wasn't referring to your gig in particular, it was a general statement mate, sorry for any misunderstanding. You actually sound like me on the modern soul forums about eight or nine years ago - sadly Rod, like it or not, anyone with a genuine passion for fresh music is in a very small minority these days, it's exactly the same on the modern scene and at weekenders - anthems and handbags and DJs playing the same records in the same order every single set and side-to-side formation dancing to the same tracks rules the roost unfortunately, genuine music-driven gigs are few and far between now. It's actually all pretty rubbish in terms of music for the most part now, it's just a social thing.

And yes, I hate soul music, I must do because my collection only dates back as far as 1971.

Roger

[Guest Matt Male]

No Matt, have always said the true cutting edge stuff isn't getting casually put up on the internet. That's what makes and keeps it cutting edge. At European events you'll hear it though.

Also upstairs rom at Cleethorpes on Saturday would have given you a glimpse.

Well can you give me some kind of clue because i'm obviously in need of an education. Both you and Roger have been slagging off rooms that play lesser known and underplayed oldies all through this thread. I'm assuming you mean events like the Ton of Dynamite room at Gloucester, Empty Bottles and Rod's do, all events i've frequented and the kind of nights I like. But i've obviously got it wrong in thinking I was listening to something fresh and although probably forgotten oldies, new to my ears at least. So, since I can't pop to Europe or Cleethorpes at the minute, what do you think is cutting edge, if not the rarely played sounds at second rooms and small 'rare soul' nights in this? Serious question.

...and please don't say modern soul

Edited June 27, 2012 by Matt Male

[Steve G]

Rod, like it or not, anyone with a genuine passion for fresh music is in a very small minority these days, it's exactly the same on the modern scene and at weekenders - anthems and handbags and DJs playing the same records in the same order every single set and side-to-side formation dancing to the same tracks rules the roost unfortunately, genuine music-driven gigs are few and far between now. It's actually all pretty rubbish in terms of music for the most part now, it's just a social thing.

Roger

Bang on the money Roger.

[Guest Matt Male]

Bang on the money Roger.

He's bang on the money because he's stating the obvious.

No one disagrees with that.

[Guest rodw]

I quoted you, Rod, but I wasn't referring to your gig in particular, it was a general statement mate, sorry for any misunderstanding. You actually sound like me on the modern soul forums about eight or nine years ago - sadly Rod, like it or not, anyone with a genuine passion for fresh music is in a very small minority these days, it's exactly the same on the modern scene and at weekenders - anthems and handbags and DJs playing the same records in the same order every single set and side-to-side formation dancing to the same tracks rules the roost unfortunately, genuine music-driven gigs are few and far between now. It's actually all pretty rubbish in terms of music for the most part now, it's just a social thing.

And yes, I hate soul music, I must do because my collection only dates back as far as 1971.

Roger

Probably about the time when I bought my 1st SOUL record (1971) but I do find it difficult at times to listen to comments about good SOUL records or what I think are good SOUL records & many many Underplayed Oldies are very very good SOUL records....admittedly not ALL lol !!! I apologise....Sorry Roger, you obviously don't hate Soul music mate lol.......

[Steve G]

Well can you give me some kind of clue because i'm obviously in need of an education. Both you and Roger have been slagging off rooms that play lesser known and underplayed oldies all through this thread. I'm assuming you mean events like the Ton of Dynamite room at Gloucester, Empty Bottles and Rod's do, all events i've frequented and the kind of nights I like. But i've obviously got it wrong in thinking I was listening to something fresh and although probably forgotten oldies, new to my ears at least. So, since I can't pop to Europe or Cleethorpes at the minute, what do you think is cutting edge, if not the rarely played sounds at second rooms and small 'rare soul' nights? Serious question.

...and please don't say modern soul

I am not going to comment on any venues I've not been to Matt. That would be madness - show me a playlist, and I'll comment on that though.

What I find interesting though is that the DJs who I know have really good records that I'd class as cutting edge and who can also put a northern type set together like Dyson, Dobson, The Dentist, C Steele, A Fenn, Kitch / Dean, D Welding, J McClure, S Green, D Thorley and a few others don't appear to be on too often at all these upfront gigs that exist. By contrast there's a lot of fellas with a box of these sort of "ok / good" known / semi known oldie records doing the rounds week in week out thinking they've got top records. That's my opinion of course and I am sure others will disagree. I realise I am being a bit controversial.

There are also some bloody good general DJs that have strong collections and a great feel, like T Massey, P Lyster, Mick H etc.

As Chalky said the problem is we've become a nation of DJs and too many venues trying to be upfront.

Edited June 27, 2012 by Steve G

[Steve G]

He's bang on the money because he's stating the obvious.

No one disagrees with that.

Oh really? Have a look at some of the big weekender threads. It's all brilliant mate. Honest.

[Guest Matt Male]

Oh really? Have a look at some of the big weekender threads. It's all brilliant mate. Honest.

I meant no one on this thread.

Edited June 27, 2012 by Matt Male

[Guest Brett F]

Can you give us a playlist of cutting edge sounds Steve?

Hi Matt, no taking sides here..i loathe everybody LOL, But Steve G did play Soul Essence earlier this year and did a wonderful Saturday early evening spot, so much was unknown to me ( and i guess a whole lot more there ), but the year before he exploded in the early hours to a packed room and played some of the greatest soul records i knew ( plus would love to own ), me and Steve Plumb kept saying ' He can't beat that last one'...But he did again and again. It's difficult for me to comment on the Northern Soul scene, but at places like Essence you do get a fine spectrum of soul music from many of the decades and played by some of the top collectors, DJ's on this scene. I believe there is an elite bunch of folks who do have the best music, Butch the other year in Hamburg and Bamburg ( Modernish room..LOL ) played some of the finest soul music i've ever heard. I'm not that bothered that there are a thousand nights with a few friends playing records to each other, so what, it's a free country, you pays your coin and picks your venue..

Brett.

[Guest BAKUNIN]

That the scene (if thats what its called) is fast imploding on itself is self-evident from the contents of this thread!

I think however that there is ,whether one cares to admit it or not ,a certain nostalgic yearning for the old days both in terms of atmosphere and music

but efforts to recreate that are ,though understandable, a tad naive.

This applies to the majority of venues(literally hundreds) where the dress code and the overplayed oldies are in the ascendancy.

It is for these primarily a social night out for a dance to the "stuff we grew up on"

Those who want something different will just have to create something different because those punters I mention above just aint gonna attend "rare" nights and if they do wont come back.

Thats not to blame them though.They like what they like.

So logically if only a minority want to hear something different the only way forward in my opinion is a small mambers only(so they know what to expect) soul club and that is my aim anyway.

Probably be listening to it on my own but at least I will bwe happy

ROB.

[Guest rodw]

The diversity of this thread has been amazing...probably why it's been viewed so much. It's covered a lot of topics on many sections of the overall Soul scene..... What about Early 70's Soulful Funk ??

[Guest]

The diversity of this thread has been amazing...probably why it's been viewed so much. It's covered a lot of topics on many sections of the overall Soul scene..... What about Early 70's Soulful Funk ??

You're obsessed with the Soul word.. How about 60's Soulful pop.

[manus]

You're obsessed with the Soul word.. How about 60's Soulful pop.

I would have thought most of us on here are obessed with the word Soul

[Chalky]

Let's clear one thing up. The Northern Soul scene is NOT a Soul scene it's a dance music scene. That's why blue eyed pop records get played and some of them are very good dance records.

I think 99% know it is a dance scene.

[Guest]

I would have thought most of us on here are obessed with the word Soul

and there lies the rub. You should be more worried about dance records because thats what the majority of people go to do. Which is why overplayed poppy niters are a bigger draw than some do on the outskirts of some provincial town where the Dj's are more worried about wether the record their playing has enough soul points to warrent the 2k price tag.

Edited June 27, 2012 by Guest

[Guest]

I think 99% know it is a dance scene.

obviously not.

[Wiggyflat]

At home listening to Walter Jacksons No Easy Way down....great soul record but not northern and not a dance record ...when I go out I want to dance to northern and not .....rare soul....soul.Thank god Kev Roberts rescued us in the nineties.

[Guest]

At home listening to Walter Jacksons No Easy Way down....great soul record but not northern and not a dance record ...when I go out I want to dance to northern and not .....rare soul....soul.Thank god Kev Roberts rescued us in the nineties.

Really! I'd say Bradford Queens Hall and House music rescued quite a number of us.

[Chalky]

That is also part of the scenes problem. Soul purists that don't understand it's about the dance.

You are just generalising again. I don't know one promoter or DJ that seriously sets out so that no one dances. Some have a different idea of what they want to listen to and if it doesn't work then that is a different story. Not everyone wants to listen to or dance to the classics of the casino, torch etc.

Promoters have to take a lot of the blame for when a DJ doesn't go down well with the locals. What a certain promoter want and what the locals want is often very different, I've witnessed it all too often. I've also had punters come up asking for classics when the night is clearly stated, unknown, semi-known, forgotten or whatever moniker you want to give them.

[Chalky]

At home listening to Walter Jacksons No Easy Way down....great soul record but not northern and not a dance record ...when I go out I want to dance to northern and not .....rare soul....soul.Thank god Kev Roberts rescued us in the nineties.

again you talk out of your arse.....you contradict yourself so many times.

Rare Soul is Northern Soul and Northern Soul is Rare Soul. It was Soul/Rare Soul before it was Northern. Most people I know want too play dance music and listen to dance music, including those who frequent the "Rare Soul" scene. You don't go to these venues as far as I know so how come you know so much about them?

I can't think of any time I've heard the Walter Jackson you mention at any all-nighter off the top of my head??

[Guest Brett F]

At home listening to Walter Jacksons No Easy Way down....great soul record but not northern and not a dance record ...when I go out I want to dance to northern and not .....rare soul....soul.Thank god Kev Roberts rescued us in the nineties.

Rescued ?....Well I was never lost or stranded, glad you found your salvation...

[pikeys dog]

Thank god Kev Roberts rescued us in the nineties.

He didn't rescue me (not that i needed it, everything was going swimmingly) - he was too busy turning up at venues with CDs (with no CD players), then borrowing boots to play in their place...

[pikeys dog]

Really! I'd say Bradford Queens Hall and House music rescued quite a number of us.

You can keep the House, but upstairs at Bradford was belting.

[Guest rodw]

Got to agree,back then midweek soul nights were the norm unless an allnighter warm up,anyway clubs and workingmans clubs would have been well attended by their own members so to hire a concert room on a saturday was really out of the question.We had succsesful nights on thursdays as most people would be doing nighters on weekends.I dont think in 2012 the soul nights would be as popular midweek as they used to be or that more people would be attending current allnighters in larger numbers,I may be wrong though.How many promoters would try a midweek night? you would be less likely to clash with other local soul nights. Wrighty.

I started djing in 1975, sometimes twice a week & occasionally on a Sunday, think there was only 5 of us at the time that had ever been to an Allniter but by the late 70's there was roughly about 50 or 60 all about the same age...talking youth club days here, we became a new generation in my hometown...after the Torch/Early Wigan crowd...it's a shame but I'm the only one left who still attends Allniters out of that 50-60, that story could well be told all over the South...one of the reasons why I wanted to get involved with putting on Allniters in the South, simply cause their had'nt been one in that region for many years, probably the Colony Club also in my hometown would have been the last one...but still 90% of those attending have been travellers from the Midlands, West Country, the North....but 90% of those Southerners have been regulars at Ghetto Soul in Southampton.....Many thanks to ALL of them !!!

[ZootSuit]

The Northern Soul scene is NOT a Soul scene it's a dance music scene.

ABSOLUTELY SPOT ON........which then beggars the question ''what sort of scene is the Modern Scene?'', 'cause I cant dance to that music they play.

Edited June 27, 2012 by ZootSuit

[Guest Brett F]

This whole thread to me, has become Russ Vicker's... 'Emile Zola's .. J'Accuse moment .... in reflection to the falsehood of Northern Soul.....

Edited June 27, 2012 by Brett F

[Chalky]

At the end of the day it is each to his or her own. If someone wants to listen to a ballad what the f*ck is it to do with anyone else? As I've said earlier there is a plethora of venues around the country, go somewhere else if what is on offer doesn't suit you, I know I do go where I chose and not where I'm forced to endure music that doesn't appeal to me.

[manus]

and there lies the rub. You should be more worried about dance records because thats what the majority of people go to do. Which is why overplayed poppy niters are a bigger draw than some do on the outskirts of some provincial town where the Dj's are more worried about wether the record their playing has enough soul points to warrent the 2k price tag.

Different strokes and all that I'm a Soul fan - if I go to an event I go to listen to Soul records I couldn't care less if they cost 10 pence or whatever and lot of good Soul records don't cost another mortage.

[Davekd]

You are wrong and makes me wonder just how you came to the above from what I said?

Anyone can see from the calendar alone that by and large there are too many venues.

I don't care what he policy is or what the format the DJs will be playing there are far too many.

I've lookked on occasion at e event calendar and within an hour of me some weekends there have been 30,40 and at least once 50 events over the weekend. If that is good for the scene then Christ knows how bad it has to get before it has a detrimental effect on the scene.

Many venues are suffering with attendances, especially in today's economic climate so wouldn't it make sense to do away with some events and have one or two decent events with a full house and great atmosphere no matter what the policy or format of the music?

40 events within an hour of me, you could lose at least 30 of them and have decent events to suit all tastes and still give everyone a choice!

Of course there will be areas where this won't be the case and there is a reasonably healthy local scene but these are few and far between.

It is time for some promoters and some DJs to stop being so selfish and look at the bigger picture, for the good of everyone , all IMO of course. It is time folk got their heads together or banged together

Right ok understand now, apologies for picking you up wrong there. Like Steve says I suppose London is it's own little environment and not particulaly relevant to whats going on elsewhere. 40 events within an hour is mental.

Dave

[Guest Brett F]

ABSOLUTELY SPOT ON........which then beggars the question ''what sort of scene is the Modern Scene?'', 'cause I cant dance to that music they play.

Because you don't know how to......................

Edited June 27, 2012 by Brett F

[Roger Williams]

At the end of the day it is each to his or her own. If someone wants to listen to a ballad what the f*ck is it to do with anyone else?.

And taking us full circle to what kicked this off in the first place, what the f*ck is it to do with anyone else if people want to play CDs at their northern soul event?

[Chalky]

Right ok understand now, apologies for picking you up wrong there. Like Steve says I suppose London is it's own little environment and not particulaly relevant to whats going on elsewhere. 40 events within an hour is mental.

Dave

There are probably a few examples of places where the scene is small, South West, Scotland like Steve mentions, maybe Anglia. But large parts of the country it is like you say mental! Take a look at the calendar for Notts or South Yorkshire!

[ZootSuit]

Because you don't know how to......................

Actually I can, BUT I choose to not be able to as I dont particularly like Modern Soul, at least not ALL bloody night, why, because it does not go at 100 mph.

Nothing wrong with CD's, its whats in the grooves, or the bits, that counts

Edited June 27, 2012 by ZootSuit

[Chalky]

And taking us full circle to what kicked this off in the first place, what the f*ck is it to do with anyone else if people want to play CDs at their northern soul event?

I actually said that in my first post on here. As long as the promoter lets people know the situation and you know and accept what is happening then no cause for complaint is there really.

[Chalky]

Actually I can, BUT I choose to not be able to as I dont particularly like Modern Soul, at least not ALL bloody night, why, because it does not go at 100 mph.

Then why moan about it? And I I'm sure the likes of Roger could satisfy a night with uptempo Modern Soul.

[Steve G]

At home listening to Walter Jacksons No Easy Way down....great soul record but not northern and not a dance record ...when I go out I want to dance to northern and not .....rare soul....soul.

Hi again Wiggy. the only place you'd hear "No easy way down" is in a deep soul room. No way would anyone play it at a northern / rare night. It's a rather nice indeed slow soul record. It's not even rare really compared to some other stuff oN Wand. Not sure what the point is, except to tell us you're listening to a good soul record in your living room?

[Guest rodw]

You're obsessed with the Soul word.. How about 60's Soulful pop.

Don't think 60's Soulful Pop has a scene,why don't you start one up ??....Early 70's Soulful Funk has !!!

[Guest]

You are just generalising again. I don't know one promoter or DJ that seriously sets out so that no one dances. Some have a different idea of what they want to listen to and if it doesn't work then that is a different story. Not everyone wants to listen to or dance to the classics of the casino, torch etc.

Promoters have to take a lot of the blame for when a DJ doesn't go down well with the locals. What a certain promoter want and what the locals want is often very different, I've witnessed it all too often. I've also had punters come up asking for classics when the night is clearly stated, unknown, semi-known, forgotten or whatever moniker you want to give them.

I know not every one wants to listen to classics believe me i'm one of them. I just like good records i'm not bothered from what era, genre what ever i just like good dance records. Unfortunatly that's not the case with the majority of punters as you say so yourself.

[Guest]

ABSOLUTELY SPOT ON........which then beggars the question ''what sort of scene is the Modern Scene?'', 'cause I cant dance to that music they play.

It used to be brilliant but now it's a bit hit and miss.

TBH i've known a lot of people that have gone to Northern, Modern and House nights. (a lot of em post on here.. Jocko!) And all we've ever wanted to do was get trashed and dance to good music.

[Guest]

You can keep the House, but upstairs at Bradford was belting.

Downstairs was brilliant, messy but brilliant.

[Guest]

At the end of the day it is each to his or her own. If someone wants to listen to a ballad what the f*ck is it to do with anyone else? As I've said earlier there is a plethora of venues around the country, go somewhere else if what is on offer doesn't suit you, I know I do go where I chose and not where I'm forced to endure music that doesn't appeal to me.

Nothing wrong with listening to a ballad, just not at 4am speeding of ya tits on a night out and that's what some Dj's don't realise.

[Guest]

Don't think 60's Soulful Pop has a scene,why don't you start one up ??....Early 70's Soulful Funk has !!!

Course it has it's called The Northern Soul scene you might of heard of it.

[Guest]

And taking us full circle to what kicked this off in the first place, what the f*ck is it to do with anyone else if people want to play CDs at their northern soul event?

cos cd's are the work od the Devil and you know dat

[Guest Matt Male]

Well this thread has taught me a few things and really opened my eyes and made me think. There's a lot on here I disagree with and some of which has been purely ignorant or unintentionally offensive. Seems there aren't two scenes, three at least, maybe even four.

Time to go away and consider what i've read on here because things aren't the way I thought they were.

Edited June 27, 2012 by Matt Male

[Guest Brett F]

This is all getting too much for me i demand from the moderators the testimony of professional hand writing experts, or failing that a leading graphologist, who are these foul 'northern soul types' demanding up tempo music, who the hell are they, don't they realise we are Rhythm and Blues fans......

[Chalky]

Nothing wrong with listening to a ballad, just not at 4am speeding of ya tits on a night out and that's what some Dj's don't realise.

I fully agree with you and I think we are singing from the same hymn sheet. Ballads in the right place at the right time have their place but like you say not a run of them at 4am.

[Steve G]

We've been remarkably well behaved I thought. Robust discussion a few knocks, and a little collateral damage, a few bruises to egos etc. Nothing a bit of cold water won't soothe.

On the old funk boards we'd be wishing each other painful slow deaths in car crashes by now.... :lol:

This is very genteel banter and discussion Matt.

[Guest rodw]

Course it has it's called The Northern Soul scene you might of heard of it.

I meant a club playing Blue Eyed Soul only...can't think of any club that has that music policy ??

[Steve G]

I meant a club playing Blue Eyed Soul only...can't think of any club that has that music policy ??

Closest we ever got was Wigan c 1978.

[Davekd]

Hi Dave,

Horses for courses. London is a complete mish mash of scenes, sub cultures, mutual DJ back-scratching et al. There is so much on, there isn't to use Phil's expression a "focal point venue" at all - just various micro-scenes with some limited crossover of DJs and punters. There are loads of venues most people have never been to, and always a new one starting up somewhere with some sub-set or other. I personally am not familiar with some of the younger gigs like the newish thing at the Boston Arms or the gig that Wiggy was championing in EC1 - never heard of it before. Then again loking at the playlists, I'm not going to be going either. Last "new" gig I went to was Marco's when Butch was on which was very good.

Contrast that with someone who lives say in Devon, Aberdeen or Norfolk - they are lucky if they have one venue a quarter to go to within reasonable (1-2 hour) distance.

So I guess what I am saying is the scene fragmented totally into a range of clubs, all of which will have their day and inevitably fade out over time.

All of which of course is a million miles away from the topic of this thread.....

Hello mate,

Yes I suppose at only 8 years into the scene, loads of stuff is still new to me, so still enjoying getting out there - I usually go with its either good, bad or indifferent in terms of the tunes as opposed to oldie, newie etc.

You are right there are loads of little fragmented scenes here and sometimes quite odd to step into them.

It does occour to me that some tunes are also regional - rare in the South but common elsewhere and visa versa.

Dave