Frederick Hymes On Fab Vegas

[boba]

I think it's interesting that facts are missing, made up, etc. and (in other cases), people might be paying lots of money for a later press thinking it's the first. Who will know for sure? What happens in cases where the "facts" were wrong and the thought-to-be-later press turns out to be the first? I think at this point it wouldn't affect the value of the yellow copy much because so many have been sold at that value and they're pretty much out of print.

What's also interesting is established knowledge getting lost. For example, there is a very rare sweet soul / funk 45 by the rappers on roach out of LA. In the 90s the label owner repressed it with the original labels, but the vinyl was obviously later 80s-style vinyl with the big ridged, rounded edge, etc. People have been selling the reissue without mentioning (or even knowing) that it's a 90s press and it has become like a $200 record. Originals are very rare... but I got one for $150 on ebay recently mint because the people who would currently want it probably already paid $200+ for a reissue that they didn't know was a reissue.

At the time we weren't doing a forensic study for the Soul Source bootleg and Reissue club members

someone should print up membership cards

[Steve G]

I think it's interesting that facts are missing, made up, etc. and (in other cases), people might be paying lots of money for a later press thinking it's the first. Who will know for sure? What happens in cases where the "facts" were wrong and the thought-to-be-later press turns out to be the first? I think at this point it wouldn't affect the value of the yellow copy much because so many have been sold at that value and they're pretty much out of print.

What's also interesting is established knowledge getting lost. For example, there is a very rare sweet soul / funk 45 by the rappers on roach out of LA. In the 90s the label owner repressed it with the original labels, but the vinyl was obviously later 80s-style vinyl with the big ridged, rounded edge, etc. People have been selling the reissue without mentioning (or even knowing) that it's a 90s press and it has become like a $200 record. Originals are very rare... but I got one for $150 on ebay recently mint because the people who would currently want it probably already paid $200+ for a reissue that they didn't know was a reissue.

someone should print up membership cards

The Rappers was one of the ones I was thinking of green / yellow label....Steve

[Dave Pinch]

lets just say they are all real and be done with

[Sebastian]

For example, there is a very rare sweet soul / funk 45 by the rappers on roach out of LA. In the 90s the label owner repressed it with the original labels, but the vinyl was obviously later 80s-style vinyl with the big ridged, rounded edge, etc.

That reminds me of William Bostic's "What You Do To Me" that William himself pressed up recently. I've seen them being sold as first issues lately on eBay and from some dealers. The typeface on the label is slightly different when compared to the original and is being sold by William as a re-issue (so no sneaky business on his part ofcourse).

[Sebastian]

It's sensitive because no one has wittingly bought a reissue. Like the John & The Weirdest I suspect some of those who got the 2nd issue were horrified to find out, and have retro-dated them with a bit of buffing up and 'WOL' so they at least look more authentic when viewed by a turntable 'hawk'. Or am I just a total cynic?

I understand where you're coming from but if there now exists a second issue of this 45 which has got see-through-ish vinyl, then it must've been pressed in at least a somewhat decent amount of copies. The chances are pretty much non-existant that EVERYONE that has got one of those in their collection is horrified and don't want to post up proof about it to save their face. The odds of that happening and that everyone affected feels the same and want to guard it as a secret are slim to say the least. People really can't be that delusional?

The trouble with what you say Seb, is the two copies looked different when held together at Cleethorpes. At the time we weren't doing a forensic study for the Soul Source bootleg and Reissue club members, so we didn't spend much time on it. We certainly didn't hold either copy up to UV lights,

I think you really should have.

At least then we wouldn't have to go round and round in circles over this matter...

Are the copy that you compared yours to no longer around? Is it totally impossible to do the comparison again?

[Steve G]

I understand where you're coming from but if there now exists a second issue of this 45 which has got see-through-ish vinyl, then it must've been pressed in at least a somewhat decent amount of copies. The chances are pretty much non-existant that EVERYONE that has got one of those in their collection is horrified and don't want to post up proof about it to save their face. The odds of that happening and that everyone affected feels the same and want to guard it as a secret are slim to say the least. People really can't be that delusional?

I think you really should have.

At least then we wouldn't have to go round and round in circles over this matter...

Are the copy that you compared yours to no longer around? Is it totally impossible to do the comparison again?

John & Weirdest - folk were paying 700 bucks ++++ for the second issue - Reckon most would probably be embarrassed to fess up and quietly filed it away at the back of the box for 'request use' only. At first no one knew it had been repressed so some folk, thought they'd got the genuine article. In hindsight I am glad to say no one sold me their copy, so I missed out on original or 2nd issue, though it's a sure classic both sides.

When I think of it I can only think of one example where someone has been honest enough to come on here, having spent serious amounts on a 45, to say they've been duped. That was with Robbie Lawson, where the dude re-pressed it and tried to palm it off and make some more money, until he was rumbled. In that case the fella knew as soon as he received the 45 it was a dud and tried to get his money back. Only when Lawson started being funny about it, did the thing blow up and become a international diplomatic incident on soul source with pages of debate. So yes Sebastian I do think people tend to keep quiet. Also threads like that tend to attract dumb posts about "record collectors with more sense than money" / "There's better records on Hi for a fiver" / "Thank goodness Robbie is able to reap some genuine reward for his artistic creativity" etc. etc. from the usual suspects and anti-collector types.

Back to the lack of Forensics on Frederick Hymes, enough people on here claim to have copies of this and it's been a steady seller under the counter in certain establishments in Nevada for a long while now. It cannot be beyond the bounds of logistical simplicity to get the two types together and have a proper look. The orange ones surfaced in the UK first, so unless you are saying they re-pressed it before any demand had built up, then the orange is almost certainly the first press. When they were done - anyone's guess, apart from Mr Hymes.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Steve G

[Sebastian]

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Edited June 18, 2012 by Sebastian

[Sebastian]

So yes Sebastian I do think people tend to keep quiet.

OK. I just want to find out what the truth is, but until someone comes up with exact proof of the differences between the suposedly two pressings I'll keep shut.

[Guest Brett F]

That reminds me of William Bostic's "What You Do To Me" that William himself pressed up recently. I've seen them being sold as first issues lately on eBay and from some dealers. The typeface on the label is slightly different when compared to the original and is being sold by William as a re-issue (so no sneaky business on his part ofcourse).

I didn't know that Sebastian, have you a link/photo of the re-issue William Bostic, i have an original and would be interested to see the differences.

[Guest Brett F]

https://www.ebay.co.u...e#ht_500wt_1202

https://www.ebay.co.u...#ht_2315wt_1185

Ok quick search found these two,one has different type clearly plus the address at the foot of the label is larger than on my copy...Is this then the re-issue you mention ?....Plus can we stop all this now because i'm off work today and i'm fed up looking for records i own and then getting a magnifying glass on them whilst holding them up to a naked flame...It's stressful and i'm delicate through a heavy Sunday.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Brett F

[Marc Forrest]

I didn't know that Sebastian, have you a link/photo of the re-issue William Bostic, i have an original and would be interested to see the differences.

Its very easy Brett, the first rel. has gold lettering whereas the sec. rel. has silver/grey. William (good man he is) did them himslef and did send them out for free to his friends and later sold them at 5 USD each. A shame if someone is trying to make a benefit out of this IMO.

[Marc Forrest]

That reminds me of William Bostic's "What You Do To Me" that William himself pressed up recently. I've seen them being sold as first issues lately on eBay and from some dealers. The typeface on the label is slightly different when compared to the original and is being sold by William as a re-issue (so no sneaky business on his part ofcourse).

see my post above Seb, its really easy to differentiate between first and sec. release.

[Marc Forrest]

I understand where you're coming from but if there now exists a second issue of this 45 which has got see-through-ish vinyl, then it must've been pressed in at least a somewhat decent amount of copies. The chances are pretty much non-existant that EVERYONE that has got one of those in their collection is horrified and don't want to post up proof about it to save their face. The odds of that happening and that everyone affected feels the same and want to guard it as a secret are slim to say the least. People really can't be that delusional?

In fact this is quite a "rare" bootleg in terms of how often you see it for sale...plus it is one that when I saw going thru ebay at 250 USD for teh first time it made it straight into my imaginary "book of totally unbelievable and out of this world high end overpriced auction jokes" ;)

By the way, I have a bootleg, see thru vinyl..even WOL (Steve, you been to my pandoras box again ?). Must and will do it till I get me an original. Its fine to look at and for home self-entertainment.

[Guest Brett F]

Its very easy Brett, the first rel. has gold lettering whereas the sec. rel. has silver/grey. William (good man he is) did them himslef and did send them out for free to his friends and later sold them at 5 USD each. A shame if someone is trying to make a benefit out of this IMO.

Cheers Marc, i didn't realize that there were two label designs...Learn something everyday, need this gold one then : )

Edited June 18, 2012 by Brett F

[Marc Forrest]

In fact this is quite a "rare" bootleg in terms of how often you see it for sale...plus it is one that when I saw going thru ebay at 250 USD for teh first time it made it straight into my imaginary "book of totally unbelievable and out of this world high end overpriced auction jokes" ;)

By the way, I have a bootleg, see thru vinyl..even WOL (Steve, you been to my pandoras box again ?). Must and will do it till I get me an original. Its fine to look at and for home self-entertainment.

I should maybe add that I found this john & weirdest bootleg in Berlin in the early nineties/end of eighties and didnt pay over the odds for it.. LOL

[KevH]

....And John & weirdest - which I believe came from the same area as FH

I mean no one is now going to admit to having a see through copy of F Hymes are they? Really?

Is it a rumour then the J&Weirdest boots shone thru the vinyl, dark brown?

[Marc Forrest]

Is it a rumour then the J&Weirdest boots shone thru the vinyl, dark brown?

as I stated above..its not a rumour. vinyl is light brown and lights shines thru when hold up against it.

[KevH]

as I stated above..its not a rumour. vinyl is light brown and lights shines thru when hold up against it.

Cheers Marc.

[Sebastian]

By the way, I have a bootleg, see thru vinyl..even WOL

Assuming that you're talking about the Frederick Hymes 45, can you please post up a picture that catches the light shining through the vinyl?

For future reference it would be great to actually confirm, with a picture, that such a 45 exists.

[Chalky]

....And John & weirdest - which I believe came from the same area as FH

I mean no one is now going to admit to having a see through copy of F Hymes are they? Really?

Is that the first or second boot of J&W? The first J & W, the one a few got caught out with came from the midlands.

[Garethx]

Assuming that you're talking about the Frederick Hymes 45, can you please post up a picture that catches the light shining through the vinyl?

For future reference it would be great to actually confirm, with a picture, that such a 45 exists.

I think Marc is referring to John & The Weirdest.

[Sebastian]

I think Marc is referring to John & The Weirdest.

I think so too. Just wanted to be sure as he quoted a paragraph where I was talking about the Frederick Hymes 45.

[Dave Moore]

Is that the first or second boot of J&W? The first J & W, the one a few got caught out with came from the midlands.

Mine came from Arizona.

I got stung early on with this for $1000. I wasn't at all embarrassed though. Why should I be, I didn't do anything wrong? I paid good money and received a counterfeit. The first thing I did was let people know. But then again, I haven't a box for 'requests use' only as I'm not a DJ. It was a boot so therefore it got binned. I did get a credit for the 1k too.

I also pinged the Robbie Lawson as soon as it appeared. I also let folks know. Didn't stop a few diving in for what they thought was a bargain though.

Regards,

Dave

[NEV]

While we are on the subject of F Hymes on Vegas original or 2nd presses etc ..

Is it a fact that it was never actually a released record in the 1st place and they were pressed up some yrs after the song was discovered on a tape or studio acetate ??

Could it not be possible that the same person just did a later press to satisfy demand ? If that is true ,then surely this would make it an exception to the rule of the definition of "original press "

Of course I could be totallly wrong and just dreamt up that theory .lol

[Dave Pinch]

While we are on the subject of F Hymes on Vegas original or 2nd presses etc ..

Is it a fact that it was never actually a released record in the 1st place and they were pressed up some yrs after the song was discovered on a tape or studio acetate ??

Could it not be possible that the same person just did a later press to satisfy demand ? If that is true ,then surely this would make it an exception to the rule of the definition of "original press "

Of course I could be totallly wrong and just dreamt up that theory .lol

thats pretty much what i said all along nev...unnissued 70`s put out around 2001 and i think they kept pressing a few up every so often to meet the demand stopping around 2005 i reckon...i dont think theres 1000`s of em tho as in recent years it doesnt seem to come up that much at all and theres always wants out for it

[boba]

thats pretty much what i said all along nev...unnissued 70`s put out around 2001 and i think they kept pressing a few up every so often to meet the demand stopping around 2005 i reckon...i dont think theres 1000`s of em tho as in recent years it doesnt seem to come up that much at all and theres always wants out for it

The only evidence against this is that copy with the lu-bet publishing stamp. The fact that the plates have been reused is evidence for this though... unless someone involved comes out with the story, it'll stay unresolved as to what happened.

[NEV]

I seem to recall it was the guy from vegas who sells all the prix records ,that was responsible for the so called 2nd press copies ?

Is that co-incidental that the label is fab Vegas ??

[boba]

I seem to recall it was the guy from vegas who sells all the prix records ,that was responsible for the so called 2nd press copies ?

Is that co-incidental that the label is fab Vegas ??

it's only coincidental in the sense that the frederick hymes record is from las vegas.

[Guest JohanT]

That reminds me of William Bostic's "What You Do To Me" that William himself pressed up recently. I've seen them being sold as first issues lately on eBay and from some dealers. The typeface on the label is slightly different when compared to the original and is being sold by William as a re-issue (so no sneaky business on his part ofcourse).

That also reminds me of the later pressing of JD Hall that are being sold as originals all the time...

On a similar note, can anybody clarify if there is an easy way to tell the difference between originals and recent lookalike reissues from Light in the Attic Records (never seen them in real life). I recently spotted a 45 from the reissue box Wheedle's Groove on ebay and it appeared to have been worn/used as an original. Very confusing. You can see some of the labels in this youtube clip:

/Johan

[Dave Pinch]

The only evidence against this is that copy with the lu-bet publishing stamp. The fact that the plates have been reused is evidence for this though... unless someone involved comes out with the story, it'll stay unresolved as to what happened.

just a thought bob.. that copy came out of the states in 2009 and are only rubber stamps onto the label.that could have been done at any time. and the label is more lighter orange than the deeper orange copies that are rumoured to be earlier.

Edited June 19, 2012 by dave pinch

[Sebastian]

That also reminds me of the later pressing of JD Hall that are being sold as originals all the time...

Yes, that one is ridiculous. And perhaps once again a case of people not wanting to accept the truth. I'd wager that as many as 98% of all the copies that have been sold as originals over the years are repros / second issues that came from the artist himself. The original 7" issue with sharp non-dot matrix lettering on the label is very rare.

[Neckender]

While we are on the subject of F Hymes on Vegas original or 2nd presses etc ..

Is it a fact that it was never actually a released record in the 1st place and they were pressed up some yrs after the song was discovered on a tape or studio acetate ??

Could it not be possible that the same person just did a later press to satisfy demand ? If that is true ,then surely this would make it an exception to the rule of the definition of "original press "

Of course I could be totallly wrong and just dreamt up that theory .lol

I think that I found the first copies of this 45. I was in Pittsburgh in 1997 looking through a local djs records and along with a few other interesting 45s I bought the Frederick Hymes. A day or two later, I was in a local record shop, where I came across 4 more copies and assumed that the dj had got his copy from that same shop, as he was always junking locally for 45s. Back home, I gave it a few plays at the 100 club, where Keb Darge eventually noticed it and this led to him getting a copy from the small batch. We had it covered up for a year or two and it began to get a following. Eventually, Arthur Fenn got a copy from Henry and I assumed that he had found his copy in Pittsburgh because Henry liked to dig around that town. Once a few other influential djs got hold of the remaining copies it became a huge hit on the rare soul scene through early 2000. Then the copies from the dealer in Las Vegas turned up in greater quantities.

The copies that I found had an orange label. I've never personally seen a copy of the so-called second press, so I can't make a comment on that side of the discussion. But my point is, that the record was found as an unknown soul 45, played in clubs and became a monster sound. It was not discovered as an acetate or from a studio tape; that is just pure speculation from someone who wasn't in the original loop when it got it's first spins here in the UK. I hope that helps in someway to push along the investigation.

[Dave Pinch]

I think that I found the first copies of this 45. I was in Pittsburgh in 1997 looking through a local djs records and along with a few other interesting 45s I bought the Frederick Hymes. A day or two later, I was in a local record shop, where I came across 4 more copies and assumed that the dj had got his copy from that same shop, as he was always junking locally for 45s. Back home, I gave it a few plays at the 100 club, where Keb Darge eventually noticed it and this led to him getting a copy from the small batch. We had it covered up for a year or two and it began to get a following. Eventually, Arthur Fenn got a copy from Henry and I assumed that he had found his copy in Pittsburgh because Henry liked to dig around that town. Once a few other influential djs got hold of the remaining copies it became a huge hit on the rare soul scene through early 2000. Then the copies from the dealer in Las Vegas turned up in greater quantities.

The copies that I found had an orange label. I've never personally seen a copy of the so-called second press, so I can't make a comment on that side of the discussion. But my point is, that the record was found as an unknown soul 45, played in clubs and became a monster sound. It was not discovered as an acetate or from a studio tape; that is just pure speculation from someone who wasn't in the original loop when it got it's first spins here in the UK. I hope that helps in someway to push along the investigation.

it certainly does mark.. thats the sort of comment i wanted to hear. if its an old press great if there all real even better and goes someway to putting the ghost to rest

Edited June 20, 2012 by dave pinch

[boba]

it certainly does mark.. thats the sort of comment i wanted to hear. if its an old press great if there all real even better and goes someway to putting the ghost to rest

so did they really press the yellow label copies with the same plates much later? that's the thing I said would be weird, it is pretty rare to have usable plates much later. Maybe it's not the same plates and they weren't side-by-side enough for people to notice a difference?

[John Reed]

Yes, that one is ridiculous. And perhaps once again a case of people not wanting to accept the truth. I'd wager that as many as 98% of all the copies that have been sold as originals over the years are repros / second issues that came from the artist himself. The original 7" issue with sharp non-dot matrix lettering on the label is very rare.

I thought we'd finally put the last nail in that coffin. Also the re-press has a significant dip towards the dink, which the original doesnt have.

[Sebastian]

Great info from neckender!

so did they really press the yellow label copies

Can someone please post up a picture of a yellow labeled copy. All I've ever seen have been orange. The ones that look yellow on Popsike are actually orange. I know because a few of my friends bought those exact copies and they are deep orange.

the re-press has a significant dip towards the dink, which the original doesnt have.

Can someone please post up pictures that illustrates the "significant dip" vs. one that hasn't got a dip? Just tilt the record so that light reflects the dip and take a picture of it.

The reason I keep asking for these things to be put forward is because it is not hard nowadays to take pictures of records or scan them. Yet, no one is doing it. Providing proof that two issues exists should be easy if the differences are so apparent. Yet, no one is doing it. And when people aren't able to prove things that are EASY to prove, then that makes me question the whole thing.

[boba]

Can someone please post up a picture of a yellow labeled copy. All I've ever seen have been orange. The ones that look yellow on Popsike are actually orange. I know because a few of my friends bought those exact copies and they are deep orange.

I think they're all orange, one is a yellowish orange and one is a deep orange. Mine is the lighter color, will try to dig it out and scan it

[Garethx]

I think John's referring to JD Hall with regards to the dip on the repress.

[John Reed]

I think John's referring to JD Hall with regards to the dip on the repress.

I am, sorry for any confusion caused.

[Sebastian]

I think John's referring to JD Hall with regards to the dip on the repress.

I am, sorry for any confusion caused.

Haha! My mistake. Sorry!

The differences between the orig and repro of JD Hall are explained here and three posts down:

[Dave Pinch]

so did they really press the yellow label copies with the same plates much later? that's the thing I said would be weird, it is pretty rare to have usable plates much later. Maybe it's not the same plates and they weren't side-by-side enough for people to notice a difference?

i dont know bob. the record only started to become known when all those copies started coming out of vegas,, everyone i seen has the same vinyl;