Velvelettes Question ?

[Guest Brett F]

Just being doing some research and reading, i have the 1963 release by the Velvelettes ' There He Goes' on the IPG label ( Independent Producers Group ), well i always assumed this was a Motown related label with the group signing for Berry Gordy in late 1962, yet after reading various things about the myriad of Motown related labels i found no reference to this (IPG) label actually being a subsidiary, i'm no Motown expert but i know there are plenty on this forum, could anybody clear up this label and it's association with the Detroit group (if indeed there is any ?). Thanks in advance.

Brett F.

[Guest miff]

From mr Rimmers site

https://www.soulfulkindamusic.net/velvelettes.htm

[Rbman]

Found this on web

.........Whoever it was in the summer of 1963 who decided these things, Quality Control marked their territory in the expanding label's organisation by scoring a victory here, denying There He Goes a release. Embarrassed, Stevenson then seems to have engaged in a bit of face-saving subterfuge; he used his connections to place the rejected record with the little-known Independent Producers Group label, a small-scale indie offshoot of Hawk Records based out of New York City which specialised in licensing pre-recorded material from, well, independent producers, leasing the masters from Motown for a year. He was then able to go back to the Velvelettes and point to their record being in stores. It did pick up some radio play and sales in a few Northern and Midwestern cities, enough to convince Motown that their decision to sign the group had been the right one - but with no Motown promotional money to plug it, and no live following outside the WMU campus thanks to the Velvelettes' parentally-enforced, Motown-approved dedicaton to their schoolwork, the record's progress stalled before the single had a chance to chart nationally.

[Steve Edgar]

Just being doing some research and reading, i have the 1963 release by the Velvelettes ' There He Goes' on the IPG label ( Independent Producers Group ), well i always assumed this was a Motown related label with the group signing for Berry Gordy in late 1962, yet after reading various things about the myriad of Motown related labels i found no reference to this (IPG) label actually being a subsidiary, i'm no Motown expert but i know there are plenty on this forum, could anybody clear up this label and it's association with the Detroit group (if indeed there is any ?). Thanks in advance.

Brett F.

as ya say Brett, IPG (Independent Producers Group) actually a LA label I believe? regarding Velvelettes, think it was just as simple as berry Gordy refusing to release "There he Goes" so producer Mickey Stevenson having faith in the tune, leased it to IPG, and although a Motown recording, not a Motown record.

..hope ya well mate!

steve

[Chalky]

I'd agree with what Martin posts and that IPG is a New York label although it has heavy Detroit connections. Harry Starr, Harry & the Keyavas was a New Yorker as far as I am aware. His release has Robert Banks all over it.

The Velvelettes is a Jobete recording so probably recorded at Motown. Dont think IPG is anything else to do with Motown though other than the connections with the Velvelettes disc?

[Guest Brett F]

Thanks fellas', think that clears things up, i like the way that things slipped under Gordy's radar and this track did get a legitimate release via the IPG stable, slightly different to the moonlighting of artists through the 60's..Brendetta Davis AKA Brenda Holloway etc, still remember fondly when seeing the Funk Brothers perform at the Festival Hall in London 2004, they told the story of playing on the backing of many a non- Motown record for a few extra dollars, including many of the famous Jackie Wilson numbers.

Brett F.

[Robbk]

I'd agree with what Martin posts and that IPG is a New York label although it has heavy Detroit connections. Harry Starr, Harry & the Keyavas was a New Yorker as far as I am aware. His release has Robert Banks all over it.

The Velvelettes is a Jobete recording so probably recorded at Motown. Dont think IPG is anything else to do with Motown though other than the connections with the Velvelettes disc?

The story of Mickey Stevenson leasing the 2 cuts to IPG is correct. IPG was a New York label, which leased recordings from all over USA. As far as I know there were no other cuts from Detroit on their label (although IPG-distributed Sahara Records issued a Marva Josie record 5501-which featured a Jobete written song that listed Correc-Tone writers: Sonny Sanders and Willie Harbert). Another Detroit connection. Those 2 records are the only connections of IPG with Detroit that I know. Did the aforementioned "heavy Detroit connections unclude any others?

[Chalky]

Sorry Robb should have made it clearer, wasn't referring to any other of the releases. As I believed and as you confirm it is a New York label.

[Guest]

Only just noticed that Natural was distributed by IPG.

There are also a couple of takes of the Velevelettes' 'That's The Reason Why' recordings in circulation, with slightly different lyrics and amounts of Stevie Wonder harmonica parts.

[Robbk]

Only just noticed that Natural was distributed by IPG.

There are also a couple of takes of the Velevelettes' 'That's The Reason Why' recordings in circulation, with slightly different lyrics and amounts of Stevie Wonder harmonica parts.

There were two other recordings of "That's The Reason Why" in The Motown Vaults. We had had one ready for the "From The Vaults" series. It was significantly better than the version released on IPG, in my estimation. I think Mickey made a mistake, there. IPG didn't have a lot of releases on its own label, but it did distribute several other small-label independent productions from around USA (Florida, Texas, California, Michigan).

[boba]

There was a fairly big hit on IPG -- Jay Wiggins "Sad Girl". I always assumed east coast because I think Wiggins is from DC / Baltimore. But that Dynels on Natural is an LA record. Obviously these are all just clues and not proof of anything, but I'm not sure either way.

[Robbk]

I.P.G. WAS located in New York. I'm pretty sure that the Jay Wiggins recording was made in the D.C. Area, but was leased by IPG. Later, it was leased by Amy/Mala/Bell for better national distribution. IPG didn't have any producers or production staff in New York. They just leased already recorded productions from all around USA.

The Dynels was produced by Ray Shanklin in L.A., and would have come out on Pan-Or Records, or Natural Records as a subsidiary or sister label of Pan-Or, had it not been picked up by IPG. IPG was similar to Amy/Mala/Bell, as they had no record production staff and only leased recordings. But, of course, Bell did that on a MUCH, MUCH larger scale.

[Guest]

There was a fairly big hit on IPG -- Jay Wiggins "Sad Girl". I always assumed east coast because I think Wiggins is from DC / Baltimore. But that Dynels on Natural is an LA record. Obviously these are all just clues and not proof of anything, but I'm not sure either way.

From Billboard October 5th 1963:

[Robbk]

From Billboard October 5th 1963:

Notice the word, "Washington", under the Jay Wiggins reference on the bottom of the paper insert. It was a local production finished in Washington, DC, and the master tape was leased to IPG. When it later was picked up by Amy/Mala/Bell, I assume that IPG lost the rights to sell it, and those rights were transferred to Amy/Mala/Bell. But, that isn't necessarily so. It may also be that they retained rights in certain geographic areas, or for certain period, when they were sold concurrently, or it may even be that IPG made the deal with Bell. I'd be curious to find out the particulars of all the deals.

[Roburt]

The Washington reference means that the 45 was a breakout single in the DC area and was being flagged up as such by Billboard.

Jay Wiggins was always a popular live draw in DC & Baltimore in the 1963/64 period (many of his 45's charting in Baltimore) ......

[Robbk]

The Washington reference means that the 45 was a breakout single in the DC area and was being flagged up as such by Billboard.

Jay Wiggins was always a popular live draw in DC & Baltimore in the 1963/64 period (many of his 45's charting in Baltimore) ......

Yes, and Wasn't Wiggins popular there because he was a local of The greater Baltimore/DC Area, who appeared locally a lot? I'm pretty sure he recorded both sides there (rather than New York).

[Roburt]

Jay Wiggins myspace page ...... https://www.myspace.c...igginsakamajeed

His follow up 45 was also initially released on IPG but also on his own JW label.

His later 45's came out on a label that bore a DC address.

The SirShambling site says that his Amy 45 came out a good while after the IPG version (as it's Amy 955, that would make it June 1966).

Edited August 8, 2012 by Roburt

[Robbk]

His follow-up to Sad Girl (was apparently released on the IPG-distributed JW Records, locally in Washington DC first, before being distributed nationally on IPG, itself). That makes it a lot more likely that it was recorded in DC or Baltimore, than in New York or elsewhere.

[Robbk]

Jay Wiggins myspace page ...... https://www.myspace.c...igginsakamajeed

His follow up 45 was also initially released on IPG but also on his own JW label.

His later 45's came out on a label that bore a DC address.

The SirShambling site says that his Amy 45 came out a good while after the IPG version (as it's Amy 955, that would make it June 1966).

Yes, the Amy release was a re-issue re-release 3 years later, after Wiggins was released from prison, and resumed his making appearances. The follow-up on JW and IPG, and the 1964 release all must have been recorded in 1963, before he entered prison.

[Roburt]

Jay Wiggins "Forgive then Forest" (Forget really) hit the WEBB charts in January 1964 and peaked on the stns listing at No.2 on Feb 14th.

So I guess the initial release of the 45 (the tracks on which must have been cut in mid to late 63) would have been around New Years 64 (unless little indie labels ignored the major's policy of not releasing new 45's after mid December time).

Edited August 8, 2012 by Roburt

[Guest]

There were two other recordings of "That's The Reason Why" in The Motown Vaults. We had had one ready for the "From The Vaults" series.

C'mon Robb, get back in touch with the powers that be and get some of those tracks you once scheduled to appear finally out for us all to enjoy

I also recall another IPG advert in Billboard listing out several other releases...there you go Roburt a mission for you to go track it down!

[Robbk]

I believe that the version I like best was already released (maybe on Cellarful of Motown?). I keep regular contact with Keith Hughes, and some with Harry W. But, I'm pretty sure it's been released already. What is interesting is that in searching You-Tube, I only found the THIRD (and weakest!) unreleased version: