Markw Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 Is this genuine? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SAM-FLETCHER-TOP-RARE-NORTHERN-SOUL-POPCORN-ON-TOLLIE-ORIGINAL?item=110893366443&cmd=ViewItem&_trksid=p5197.m185&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC.NPJS%26itu%3DI%252BUA%26otn%3D12%26pmod%3D270994077512%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D9057039940087053754 Doesn't look right........ Perhaps the clue is in the wording "original Belgium 7" single?
Chris L Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 Is this genuine? https://www.ebay.co.u...039940087053754 Doesn't look right........ Perhaps the clue is in the wording "original Belgium 7" single? Sam Fletcher was originally a "Belgian Popcorn" discovery,played by Gilbert Govaert in the very early 70s. It is a Belgian release, the text is in Dutch(Flemish) it would take me longer than the 6 hours to find out it's authenticty, so someone's going to get a bargain or a re-release !! 1
Markw Posted June 11, 2012 Author Posted June 11, 2012 Thanks Chris. Yeah, always knew it was big in Belgium well before its day at Stafford (covered up as George Kirby I recall?). Bootleg then?
soulsalmon Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 Thanks Chris. Yeah, always knew it was big in Belgium well before its day at Stafford (covered up as George Kirby I recall?). Bootleg then? Pete Lawsons George Kirby C/U,looks like a boot to me
Chris L Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) Thanks Chris. Yeah, always knew it was big in Belgium well before its day at Stafford (covered up as George Kirby I recall?). Bootleg then? Well certainly we Brits would call it a re-issue, probably from the 70s Gilbert now plays a look-a-like and keeps his original tucked away. Belgium uses a loophole in the law to issue records and CDs that otherwise couldn't released (as does Portugal). It's certainly not legit like my Belgian Epic Major Lance or Olivier Bille's Belgian Immediate PP Arnold more like that Spanish Chubby Checker.....................aah well............. Edited June 11, 2012 by Chris L
Benji Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 Belgium uses a loophole in the law to issue records and CDs that otherwise couldn't released (as does Portugal). It's certainly not legit like my Belgian Epic Major Lance or Olivier Bille's Belgian Immediate PP Arnold more like that Spanish Chubby Checker.....................aah well............. Do you know more about that loophole? I know the guy/guys behind Marginal used it to issue 100s of bootleg CDs. Might be just urban myth but was told that the bootleggers were safe as long as they sold their "products" only in Belgium but one bloke got busted as he sold his CDs all over the world. Any truth behind that? BTW, are you saying spanish Chubby Checker is not legit?
Chris L Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 Do you know more about that loophole? I know the guy/guys behind Marginal used it to issue 100s of bootleg CDs. Might be just urban myth but was told that the bootleggers were safe as long as they sold their "products" only in Belgium but one bloke got busted as he sold his CDs all over the world. Any truth behind that? BTW, are you saying spanish Chubby Checker is not legit? Belgian law says that after a certain period music is in the public domain, that being the case a lot of stuff gets an official release. No that Chubby Checker is legit, bad comparison on my side.
Chalky Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 Isn't it 25 years after recording that a recording comes into public domain in Belgium and Holland??? I was told that is why some records that are boots were pressed there.
Chalky Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 Well certainly we Brits would call it a re-issue, . Most Brits I know call them boots...... 1
Chris L Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 Isn't it 25 years after recording that a recording comes into public domain in Belgium and Holland??? I was told that is why some records that are boots were pressed there. Yes probably, not sure that's the case in Holland but certainly is in Portugal.
Chris L Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 Most Brits I know call them boots...... D'you know, the release itself could be legit but the company pressing the actual record and using the Tollie label could well be "fake" and therefore a 1/2 boot !!
Chris L Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 Going a bit off topic, this is a great little video : https://vimeo.com/24079101
Amsterdam Russ Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) I like the fact that on the left hand side of the label it says "A ZIJDE"! That's A SIDE in Dutch/Flemish Edited June 11, 2012 by Russell Gilbert
Markw Posted June 11, 2012 Author Posted June 11, 2012 Ahem.... Could you be a bit more specific please Steve???........
Chris L Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 It is a legitimate issue, I see SABAM on it, that's the "Socit d'Auteurs Belge - Belgische Auteurs Maatschappij". So they've authorised it. So I guess it really is like that Chubby Checker on Spanish London.
Pete S Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 Chubby Checker on Spanish London has got nothing to do with anything, it's a legitimate release by London from 1976 when it almost made the UK charts on it's reissue.
Chris L Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 Chubby Checker on Spanish London has got nothing to do with anything, it's a legitimate release by London from 1976 when it almost made the UK charts on it's reissue. Pete if SABAM has sanctioned it then it's a legitimate release here too.
Guest Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 (edited) D'you know, the release itself could be legit but the company pressing the actual record and using the Tollie label could well be "fake" and therefore a 1/2 boot !! A half boot?..........Like a Hush Puppy you mean? Personally I think its a diamond studded thigh welly! Chipping from Belgium! I`d like to see his picture sleeve, the only ones I know are the VJ one and the U.S Demo which I sold to Dave Fergie. Edited June 12, 2012 by Guest
Chris L Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 A half boot?..........Like a Hush Puppy you mean? Personally I think its a diamond studded thigh welly! :hatsoff2:Chipping from Belgium! I`d like to see his picture sleeve, the only ones I know are the VJ one and the U.S Demo which I sold to Dave Fergie. Steve Gonna talk to Gilbert G tonight, he's a matrix maniac "I'll Be Bark"........................
Guest Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 Steve Gonna talk to Gilbert G tonight, he's a matrix maniac "I'll Be Bark"........................ Apparently its a 1976 legit pressing Chris, price-wise £20 ish.
Autumnstoned Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 Chubby Checker on Spanish London has got nothing to do with anything, it's a legitimate release by London from 1976 when it almost made the UK charts on it's reissue. I've often wondered about the provenance/history behind this record - I found several in a shop in Benidorm whilst on holiday there in about 1981. I bought 2 - gave one to a mate and still have the other. Thanks for the info.
Chris L Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 Apparently its a 1976 legit pressing Chris, price-wise £20 ish. I think it went for about £65.00..............................
Chris L Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 Is this genuine? https://www.ebay.co.u...039940087053754 Doesn't look right........ Perhaps the clue is in the wording "original Belgium 7" single? Finally got to track down Gilbert Govaerts a kind of Belgian Popcorn cross between Richard Searling & Ian L Anyway he said the record has been authorised by SABAM but reckons no royalties were ever paid. Released about 75-ish in answer to the BP fans demand. If you want to know his exact words they are : een officiele bootleg,d.w.z.dat degene die deze plaat heeft gereleased, een toelating heeft bekomen van SABAM(als men maar betaalt is voor SABAM alles ok)om deze plaat te persen,maar geen valabele overeenkomst hebben met de eigenaar van dit werk!tenzij met een fictieve(nep)overeenkomst. 2
Robbk Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 I'd call it a "legal boot". I doubt that Vivian Carter, Jimmy Bracken, Ewart Abner, Willingham, Barry or Sam Fletcher got any of the proceeds. So, they started a new Belgian Tollie Records? What were their other releases? Wouldn't this be treated as a "boot' on the UK Northern scene, in any case, regardless of the fact that Belgium treats art as "public domain" after only 25 years (and it is considered a "legitimate re-release"?
Sebastian Posted June 28, 2012 Posted June 28, 2012 Anyone can/could press a record and have "SABAM" printed in plain text on the label. That doesn't make it official or legal. 1
Chalky Posted June 28, 2012 Posted June 28, 2012 Anyone can/could press a record and have "SABAM" printed in plain text on the label. That doesn't make it official or legal. Exactly, they call em counterfeits. Plenty of bootleggers/counterfeiters used "all rights reserved" and other official looking abbreviations on the label. 1
Chris L Posted June 28, 2012 Posted June 28, 2012 Anyone can/could press a record and have "SABAM" printed in plain text on the label. That doesn't make it official or legal. SABAM are very powerful and tough organisation they nearly shutdown the whole Belgian TV system some years ago over author rights, having said that if you pay them they'll allow pretty much anything
Amsterdam Russ Posted July 1, 2012 Posted July 1, 2012 I'd call it a "legal boot". I doubt that Vivian Carter, Jimmy Bracken, Ewart Abner, Willingham, Barry or Sam Fletcher got any of the proceeds. So, they started a new Belgian Tollie Records? What were their other releases? Wouldn't this be treated as a "boot' on the UK Northern scene, in any case, regardless of the fact that Belgium treats art as "public domain" after only 25 years (and it is considered a "legitimate re-release"? Where do you get the 25 year cut-off point from Robb? The almost universally-accepted Berne Convention provides protection in excess of this period before entering the public domain, and Belgium (along with the rest of the EU) acknowledges this framework. Also, as a member of the Berne Convention, one would expect Belgium to support the laws of the country of origin of the work. Just curious...
Chalky Posted July 1, 2012 Posted July 1, 2012 Where do you get the 25 year cut-off point from Robb? The almost universally-accepted Berne Convention provides protection in excess of this period before entering the public domain, and Belgium (along with the rest of the EU) acknowledges this framework. Also, as a member of the Berne Convention, one would expect Belgium to support the laws of the country of origin of the work. Just curious... Is it not true that it is only in recent years though that countries like Belgium and Holland have brought their laws into line with that of the country of origin? I was told many a bootleg done over there because of the 25 years and into public domain.
Amsterdam Russ Posted July 1, 2012 Posted July 1, 2012 Belgium is one of the original signatories of the Berne Convention, so one would have thought its laws would be pretty tight in terms of protecting the rights of owners. It did make amendments to its copyright laws in the mid-90s. so prior to then there could well have been perfectly legal to bring works - even those originating from other countries - into the public domain after just 25 years. If so, I imagine every other country participating in the Convention would have been clamouring for this 'loophole' to be closed! Would be nice to have this 25 year thing clarified though.
Guest ashleysoul Posted July 1, 2012 Posted July 1, 2012 Why is popcorn music called 'popcorn'? Also did 'I'd think about it twice' get a belgium release?
Guest ashleysoul Posted July 1, 2012 Posted July 1, 2012 What I actually meant was did it get an official release? Oh and I've just loOked on Wikipedia for an answer to the popcorn question. Apologies.
Sebastian Posted July 1, 2012 Posted July 1, 2012 Why is popcorn music called 'popcorn'? One of the venues in Belgium that played this kind of music was called "The Popcorn".
Guest ashleysoul Posted July 1, 2012 Posted July 1, 2012 Cheers Sebastian. I've just read the discussion about the track 'popcorn'...the idea that the engineer thought it was 'pop' and kitsch (=corn).
Sebastian Posted July 1, 2012 Posted July 1, 2012 Cheers Sebastian. I've just read the discussion about the track 'popcorn'...the idea that the engineer thought it was 'pop' and kitsch (=corn). The instrumental synth/moog track "Popcorn" hasn't got anything to do with the "popcorn scene" as far as I know
Guest ashleysoul Posted July 1, 2012 Posted July 1, 2012 No it hasnt it's just that the search I did in Wikipedia came up with that info. An to assume then that the term 'popcorn' came from a style of music being played at the club 'popcorn'?
Guest ashleysoul Posted July 1, 2012 Posted July 1, 2012 I've just watched a brilliant film on the music which can be seen here. https://ditchworld.wordpress.com/2012/03/28/how-belgium-slowed-the-groove-and-created-popcorn/ If you've got ten spare minutes give it a watch it's brill.
Chris L Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 Why is popcorn music called 'popcorn'? Also did 'I'd think about it twice' get a belgium release? Watch this : https://vimeo.com/24079101
Robbk Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 Finally got to track down Gilbert Govaerts a kind of Belgian Popcorn cross between Richard Searling & Ian L Anyway he said the record has been authorised by SABAM but reckons no royalties were ever paid. Released about 75-ish in answer to the BP fans demand. If you want to know his exact words they are : een officiele bootleg,d.w.z.dat degene die deze plaat heeft gereleased, een toelating heeft bekomen van SABAM(als men maar betaalt is voor SABAM alles ok)om deze plaat te persen,maar geen valabele overeenkomst hebben met de eigenaar van dit werk!tenzij met een fictieve(nep)overeenkomst. Ha! I should have translated this for you lot, long ago: "an official bootleg- ie the one that this record has been released upon, one that has technically obtained permission from SABAM (if they merely pay SABAM, everything is ok according to them) to press this record, but no valid agreement was made with the owner of this piece, unless it's a fictitious (fake) agreement.. The makers DID NOT make an agreement with the owner, and, thus, the so-called "agreement" is invalid. Thus, even Govaerts admits that it is a bootleg.
Chris L Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 Ha! I should have translated this for you lot, long ago: "an official bootleg- ie the one that this record has been released upon, one that has technically obtained permission from SABAM (if they merely pay SABAM, everything is ok according to them) to press this record, but no valid agreement was made with the owner of this piece, unless it's a fictitious (fake) agreement.. The makers DID NOT make an agreement with the owner, and, thus, the so-called "agreement" is invalid. Thus, even Govaerts admits that it is a bootleg. Dat is een assumptie, geen bewijs voor of tegen ! 2
Gene-r Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 Ha! I should have translated this for you lot, long ago: one that has technically obtained permission from SABAM (if they merely pay SABAM, everything is ok according to them) to press this record......... Isn't that otherwise known as corruption?
Chris L Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 Why is popcorn music called 'popcorn'? Also did 'I'd think about it twice' get a belgium release? They used to play a James Brown album called "The Popcorn"
Guest ashleysoul Posted October 5, 2012 Posted October 5, 2012 ive since worled it out - the club it started at was called 'the popcorn'.....by the way, that album by james is a classic....if you like funk that is.
Robbk Posted October 5, 2012 Posted October 5, 2012 (edited) Dat is een assumptie, geen bewijs voor of tegen ! Ja, inderdaad! Maar dit zijn slechts een vertaling, niet mijn eigen woorden! "maar geen valabele overeenkomst hebben met de eigenaar van dit werk!tenzij met een fictieve(nep)overeenkomst." Don't kill the messenger! I work for Dutch Disney Publications, Sanoma Uitgevers. So, I deal with international publishing rights. I am certain that copyright laws allowing 50 years automatic rights (plus, I believe the right to renew for another 25 years) are respected in The Netherlands. Belgian law is another issue. I can't say whether or not they adhere to the European law. I would guess that they should. But if that's the case, why the uncertainty with regard to their actions with their bootleg CDs and vinyl bootlegs? Edited October 6, 2012 by RobbK
Robbk Posted October 6, 2012 Posted October 6, 2012 By the way.... Who currently owns the rights to market VJ's product?
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