What Are The Top 10 Most Expensive Uk Releases From T' 70's-80's?

[Roburt]

RE: They were made out of coal

........ you had some copies pressed up in Jamaica then Paul !!!

AND ..... I have an issue and a promo but the test pressings were first off the press so they were the highest quality before the stampers gradually started to deteriorate with wear as more copies were pressed.

.... you're an 'insider', so please let us have the benefit of your knowledge.

...... How many copies (approx) of a 45 had to be made before a stamper would deteriorate badly ?? How many copies would say EMI try to press off of a single stamper (a popular 45) & if it became a hit, would they make more stampers to press off the additional records ? I guess copies of a 45 with a pressing fault (not caused by 'impurities in the vinyl used) would all come off of a single stamper, is that correct ??

Edited July 22, 2012 by Roburt

[Guest Paul]

VS 556

Another record I've loved since I was a teenager. Howard is a hero of mine so I have all his stuff on US and UK issues and promo copies and LPs in stereo and mono variations etc.

All this duplication might be a bit of a fetish but these things are irresistible to me. I don't suppose people would consider things like this to be very rare or valuable but after 45 years mint copies must be getting quite hard to find now.

How many copies would have been pressed or circulated ?

[Roburt]

VS 556

Another record I've loved since I was a teenager. Howard is a hero of mine so I have all his stuff on US and UK issues and promo copies and LPs in stereo and mono variations etc.

All this duplication might be a bit of a fetish but these things are irresistible to me. I don't suppose people would consider things like this to be very rare or valuable but after 45 years mint copies must be getting quite hard to find now.

How many copies would have been pressed or circulated ?

Paul, you're not really trying unless you have his stuff on European releases as well ........

[Guest Paul]

RE: They were made out of coal

........ you had some copies pressed up in Jamaica then Paul !!!

Hello Roburt,

I thought the Jamaicans used tarmac which they dug up from the roads in the middle of the night !

But if records could be made out of coal at least you could make a nice fire by burning all those records you didn't like. Just imagine keeping your house nice and warm thanks to the Bay City Rollers and New Kids On The Block etc.

And if you met someone with black hands you'd know they were either a coal miner or a disc jockey !

Paul

[Guest Paul]

.... you're an 'insider', so please let us have the benefit of your knowledge.

...... How many copies (approx) of a 45 had to be made before a stamper would deteriorate badly ?? How many copies would say EMI try to press off of a single stamper (a popular 45) & if it became a hit, would they make more stampers to press off the additional records ? I guess copies of a 45 with a pressing fault (not caused by 'impurities in the vinyl used) would all come off of a single stamper, is that correct ??

As for stampers, Roburt, the most typical batch per pair is 1000 units before a second pair of stampers is made (or 'grown' as they say) from the positives. A big hit record would be pressed on several presses (and maybe at several different plants) at the same time so they'd need to make several pairs of stampers anyway.

A factory such as EMI might have gone through a hundred pairs of stampers on a really big hit. And there was a time when they identified each stamper (and if necessary each different positive from which the stampers were made) by modifying the matrix number or adding a code. But many plants just make fresh stampers which are identical to the first pair so you can't tell if your copy was from the first batch or a subsequent batch.

But just to save a few quid (and also to save the work and the setting up) some plants and some cheap record companies would run a pair of stampers until they were very worn and that would result in poor records. Many reggae records suffered from that.

With things I press on Selecta / Shotgun and things I do for other labels such as Soul Purpose and Beatin' Rhythm I usually get fresh stampers after 500 units, just as a precaution to ensure maximum quality. It doesn't cost a lot extra.

If ever you have a poor pressing it may be that it was badly cut or processed in the first place but it could also be that your copy was one of the later copies out of a large batch which were pressed using the same stampers.

You're right that a pressing fault (maybe from a foreign object getting attached to a stamper or marking a stamper, for example) would just effect that batch and a fresh pair of stampers would then be made. But that's assuming the fault is detected because some plants weren't so hot with QC, they just checked a small sample from the first batch.

In the late 1970s I had a batch of 1000 singles pressed at Eddy Grant's factory (he'd bought the old British Homophone plant) and they were all way off-centre but they hadn't checked them so they wasted a lot of time, materials and labour (and delivery and return costs) and then they had to press another 1000 copies at their cost. Their mistake also exhausted our label stock so we had to quickly print another batch of labels - and they paid for them of course. They were nice people and they were okay about it but it caused a delay and that loses customers.

In general I think most (but not all) UK and EU pressings were - and are - better than US pressings but that may be because American companies were more likely to use regrade vinyl to reduce costs and because they were usually pressing such high quantities. EMI's pressings using direct metal mastering (DMM) with hard copper masters from Abbey Road were very nice and they were sonically superior to soft lacquers.

Having said that, many US pressings were fantastic, I also like the injection-moulded (poly)styrene pressings because they had lower surface noise and slightly better tonal qualities although some people obviously don't like them because they wore out faster and were brittle so they had to be handled with more care. Those styrene pressings, by the way, used dies rather than traditional stampers and they were capable of pressing many thousands of copies using the same "stampers" without any deterioration. It saved time and money (and in some cases it also saved paper label printing).

The UK equivalent was the injection-moulded records made at the Phonogram plant, it was a similar process but they used a raw material different to polystyrene. It was some other plastic compound or even a vinyl mix, all I know is that the records were less brittle and I don't think they had any sonic advantage. The real benefit was to reduce time and costs by having "painted on" labels.

And there I am wandering off-topic again but I hope it's all interesting stuff.

Paul

[Pete S]

Anyone else got this on the UK label.....?

Hoagy Lands - Friends And Lovers Don't Go Together UK American USA 13

Ian D

That's actually more common than you think, stacks of these about, I usually sell it for £5!

[Pete S]

PX 104

I raved over this as a new release so I was pleased that it eventually become quite popular.

I've no idea what this EMI test pressing would be would be worth in financial terms (it's about demand rather than actual rarity) but if I ever sold it I wouldn't expect to find another copy.

I have an issue and a promo but the test pressings were first off the press so they (in theory) were the highest quality before the stampers gradually started to deteriorate with wear as more copies were pressed.

I'm not really a collector and I'm not into rare records as such, but it's certainly nice (and sentimental?) to have a "special" copy of a track you love so much.

The more I love a record, the more it's worth to me, so some of my UK promos and test pressings are priceless to me even though they might not have much financial value to others.

Paul

Mick Smith's got one for £25 in his box...

(rings me up a minute later to say it's a demo not a test pressing)

Edited July 22, 2012 by Pete S

[Sean Hampsey]

I have the Handwritten Test Press of Billy Cole too Paul. Also have the Paramount issue of Samuel E Wright. This thread is about the most expensive 45's but certainly amongst the rarest would be the 'Revelation Movement' withdrawn press on UK RSO.

[Sean Hampsey]

The 1971 UK Philips release - 6006 117 - is a version of Willis Wooton "Your Love Is Indescribably Delicious" by Rory McDonald.

Last time it changed hands, I think £400 was the figure, but its a hell of a lot rarer than that price would suggest.

Will dig some of these things out and post scans, once the suns gone down! :0)

Sean

[Ian Dewhirst]

Zing was one of my labels in the late '80s and early '90s. There was no demand for 7" singles at the time but, looking back, I wish we'd done some.

I wasn't familiar with that Sweat Pea Atkinson on Ze Records but I always loved the song by General Johnson anyway.

Through Millbrand / Selrec I control the GC Cameron songs and masters which came out on Flamingo and I licensed an alternative mix of 'Live For Love' to Soul Brother / Passion etc a few years ago. Coincidentally I recently had a license request from a company to issue a 7" edit of 'Live For Love' (with an unissued track on the flip) so that will happen soon.

The tracks were from a 1980 LP project for Honey Records (distributed by Fantasy in the US) but the album never came out. I have the LP masters here but to be honest only one of the unissued tracks is really of interest to soul fans because GC was aiming for a different kind of sound at that time.

By the way, the Flamingo label was owned by publishers Peterman & Co (which was run by Mike Collier of Carlin Music) and licensed to Magnet with distribution thru RCA. And those records were pressed at the RCA plant in Washington, up here in the north east of England, just a few miles from my home at the time. They were made out of coal (just kidding).

From the very late 1970s a lot of good soul records were (and are) often overlooked by soul fans (myself included) because the golden days of soul were over and expectations were low.

Take the Eddie Floyd record I issued on Shotgun a few years ago, it was actually recorded back in 1979 for an album which was almost released by Arista in the US but they obviously had other priorities.

This is a great thread, by the way, because so many UK records were overlooked and are now very hard to find. The initial batch quantities of UK pressings were usually quite small because our market was (and is) so small in comparison to the US. That explains why many UK issues are so much more hard to find than US issues. And only a few promo copies were needed for the UK, whereas you could use a couple of thousand promos in the US to service all the stations etc.

So how many promo copies, for example, would EMI have made (and circulated) when they issued 'A Lover's Reward' by Tommy Tate on UK Columbia back in 1966? Did the press 300, or even less, and did they actually send many out to radio stations? And that was 46 years ago so no wonder these records should be cherished.

And if we can include test pressings of unissued or withdrawn UK releases there are some seriously rare records, things which maybe only 5 or 6 copies (or less) ever existed for quality control purposes.

I think the first six or seven Ardent singles were on 7", after that it was all 12" singles but we also did 7" test pressings of two which were never issued.

I did a few productions for Ardent and Zing which didn't get past the test pressing stage, one at EMI, and of the six copies made I don't even have one myself. The late 1980s or early 1990s may seem quite recent until we stop and think that more than twenty years have passed since then.

Luckily my good friend Scott Taylor kept a test pressing of a track I produced on GC Cameron in 1992 so at least I can borrow it back and look at it when I'm feeling nostalgic! And one day I'll release it anyway.

Another example, when I licensed the UK mixes of 'My House' and 'Foolish' by GC Cameron for the Grapevine GSX 12" series in 2002 (or whenever) we almost did a 7" single with different edits but it was cancelled and only one pair of 14" production lacquers exist. I don't think we even did a test pressing but if we did it will be scarce.

There's also a test press of a Lighthouse Family thing I worked on before we did the Polydor deal. There are three copies out there somewhere. And there's the original unissued (and superior) version of 'Ocean Drive' which we did in 1993. As I get older I start to value these "trivial" things more.

It's okay to have a master tape copy or whatever but there's something very precious about a vinyl copy. If only I'd kept a few copies of everything.

I admit I was a bit "frustrated" when there was a huge European demand recently for the Ted Ford record I'd issued back in 1979 when I was a youngster. I could have sold hundreds of copies (some sold for £400 each at the peak of its demand) but, guess what, all I had was one good copy and a one-off test pressing which I didn't want to part with for sentimental reasons. People assumed I'd have boxes full of them but more than thirty years had passed. At least I released it again (and actually sold some this time) and licensed it to Joey Negro's Z Records for a retro disco compilation.

Anyway, sorry for wandering off-topic a bit (or a lot) but there must be some amazing rare and fascinating UK records out there which are very hard to value in both financial and sentimental terms.

Paul

Another one of my part-time summer jobs this year is to settle down one evening with a huge pile of white label 7" test-pressings and try and identify them. I did the same excercise with a bunch of 12" inch white labels that I'd accumulated over the years and found some very valuable records in there - many of which became 'secret weapons' on the rare Disco scene several years ago. Many of these I got in the mail because I was a working DJ between 1972-1975 and then again from 1977-1982 and I pretty got everything because I was on most of the mailing lists. On top of that between 1977-1980 I was also Decca's Northern Promotion guy, so I spent most of my time going around radio stations and shops and doing swaps with the reps etc, so I got TONS of stuff. Some of which I'm only just getting around to listening to again.

I had Ted Ford and I'm pretty sure that got prised out relatively recently. I'll let you know what I find.

The weird thing is, back in the 70's, I'd occasionally asign a sexier name on the sleeves of some white label promos because I'd lost the release sheet that came with it and there was so much stuff coming in that I'd never get around to actually tracing the record! So some of these tunes I only know because of the cover-up title that I gave 'em 35 years ago. Plus that Love Committee test pressing 7" I found, I always thought was merely a white label of "Law And Order" until I actually played the bugger!

There's some pretty interesting stuff out there. I'm still bumping into weird labels from the 70's and 80's which I've never seen before......

Ian D

[Ian Dewhirst]

That's actually more common than you think, stacks of these about, I usually sell it for £5!

Yep, probably is, although, along with Clydie King , it's not even on Discogs. Also, it's from his Laurie period (not Spectrum) and the 'B' side was never issued anywhere else, so it's a curious release. I bought my copy from a 10p clearout box in Jumbo Records in Leeds circa mid 70's because it was an unusual release and I couldn't see what possible market they could be aiming for. Dean Parrish and Brenda Lee Jones made sense but an old Hoagy Lands and a Clydie King? Weird.

For that reason I don't see how they could have shipped many, which is why it went in the 10p box @ Jumbos. No one wanted it.

Probably still don't.

Ian D

Edited July 22, 2012 by Ian Dewhirst

[Pete S]

Yep, probably is, although, along with Clydie King , it's not even on Discogs. Also, it's from his Laurie period (not Spectrum) and the 'B' side was never issued anywhere else, so it's a curious release. I bought my copy from a 10p clearout box in Jumbo Records in Leeds circa mid 70's because it was an unusual release and I couldn't see what possible market they could be aiming for. Dean Parrish and Brenda Lee Jones made sense but an old Hoagy Lands and a Clydie King? Weird.

For that reason I don't see how they could have shipped many, which is why it went in the 10p box @ Jumbos. No one wanted it.

Probably still don't.

Ian D

The companies didn't seem to understand that it was the song not the artist that was of interest Ian, that's why the "follow ups" to big Northern revive 45's never did a thing. Tami lynn, Formations, Little Anthony and so on.

These records that you are highlighting (and selling), most of them ended up with dj's on the record companies mailing lists, back in the early 90's I bought my mates sizeable dj collection and the amount of promos was astonishing, I stripped it of all the 60's and things I knew were rare like The Ramones "Blitzkreig Bop" pic sleeve, (there was a terry callier look at me now in there from a soul pack also) then I gave around 500 promos to the Cats Protection League in Hastings Old Town, as the years went by I've often thought about what I gave away, Pioneers My Good FRiend James and so on but at the time I just had no interest in keeping hundreds of 'disco' records. They were all "Alsatian" plugger promo copies.

[Pete S]

Yep, probably is, although, along with Clydie King , it's not even on Discogs. Also, it's from his Laurie period (not Spectrum) and the 'B' side was never issued anywhere else, so it's a curious release. I bought my copy from a 10p clearout box in Jumbo Records in Leeds circa mid 70's because it was an unusual release and I couldn't see what possible market they could be aiming for. Dean Parrish and Brenda Lee Jones made sense but an old Hoagy Lands and a Clydie King? Weird.

For that reason I don't see how they could have shipped many, which is why it went in the 10p box @ Jumbos. No one wanted it.

Probably still don't.

Ian D

Thats precisely what I mean though, I constantly get them in collections and just chuck them. No one wanted them.

[Ian Dewhirst]

The companies didn't seem to understand that it was the song not the artist that was of interest Ian, that's why the "follow ups" to big Northern revive 45's never did a thing. Tami lynn, Formations, Little Anthony and so on.

These records that you are highlighting (and selling), most of them ended up with dj's on the record companies mailing lists, back in the early 90's I bought my mates sizeable dj collection and the amount of promos was astonishing, I stripped it of all the 60's and things I knew were rare like The Ramones "Blitzkreig Bop" pic sleeve, (there was a terry callier look at me now in there from a soul pack also) then I gave around 500 promos to the Cats Protection League in Hastings Old Town, as the years went by I've often thought about what I gave away, Pioneers My Good FRiend James and so on but at the time I just had no interest in keeping hundreds of 'disco' records. They were all "Alsatian" plugger promo copies.

Yep. Copy that. I can remember popping into Polygrams regional office in Leeds and going through 1000's of "Alsatian" promos and probably a pile of Pioneers and suchlike. However I did still pick up anything that was halfway OK. I just hated those injection mould labels and pressings though, so I was a bit sniffy about 'em back then. Still am really......

Ian D

[Guest Paul]

The companies didn't seem to understand that it was the song not the artist that was of interest Ian, that's why the "follow ups" to big Northern revive 45's never did a thing. Tami lynn, Formations, Little Anthony and so on.

These records that you are highlighting (and selling), most of them ended up with dj's on the record companies mailing lists, back in the early 90's I bought my mates sizeable dj collection and the amount of promos was astonishing, I stripped it of all the 60's and things I knew were rare like The Ramones "Blitzkreig Bop" pic sleeve, (there was a terry callier look at me now in there from a soul pack also) then I gave around 500 promos to the Cats Protection League in Hastings Old Town, as the years went by I've often thought about what I gave away, Pioneers My Good FRiend James and so on but at the time I just had no interest in keeping hundreds of 'disco' records. They were all "Alsatian" plugger promo copies.

That's very true, Pete, the easiest A&R "strategy" was to quickly get another record (any record) by the same artist and hope it would do well, regardless of the material.

And rival labels cashed-in too. For example, we had issues (or reissues) of O'Jays records on Mojo in 1973 and Power Exchange in 1974, both released to cash-in on the the group's new hits on CBS. And Bell (EMI) reissued Al Green's 'Back Up Train' in late 1971 following Al's new hit 'Tired Of Being Alone', just another example.

Great records but it was lazy A&R by 'artist name' rather than musical merit - and it didn't always work, as you said.

As for promos, I also gave away hundreds of promos (on 7" and 12") in the 1970s and 1980s, either because they weren't my kind of thing or because I was running out of space sometimes. I was on mailing lists when I was a DJ and when I wrote for Black Echoes so I'd get pink vinyl 12" promos of a Dolly Parton disco track from RCA one day an obscure punk record the next ...and a few good soul records in between.

I had at least two sticker-promo copies of 'My Good Friend James' (one from Phonogram and another probably from Garrell Redfearn or a similar agency) and I might have also got one from Rudolph at Ice because I got some of their things when I pressed a record at Eddy Grant's factory. I remember thinking it was okay but nothing very special and when you go back and compare it with other new releases from that time, I still say it was okay but nothing very special. And I'm amazed when people tell me how incredibly rare it is. It may be in-demand but it isn't really rare.

Anyway I'm a bit off-topic again (but it's all your fault) and please let me know if you ever find a Hoagy Lands on UK USA 13 with a printed paper label. I know it will cost more than £5 but I reckon we can sort something out.

Paul

[Guest GhstInMyHse]

VERY FUNNY. As a matter of interest, in Stockport we had a guy called Tim O Keefe. He had a fantastic UK collection including all the TMG catalogue, including old fontana,stateside etc releases. Sadly he died about 1981. However more than one of our gang swear he had the First Choice record on UK Pye. Last night I was talking to another mate, Ged, and he raised the subject ( again). I mentioned this thread and he had no idea of the thread. Basically yet another lad here, Russ Wood, has stated that Tim had First Choice on Pye. FYI.

I know where his collection ended up so I am gonna try and ask his sister IF I can look through it. Sadly SOME people tried claiming that some of the collection was not all Tim,s and tried conning her. BUT as I said I will go and ask and try to put a bit of evidence forward.Sadly cant promise.

There's no First Choice record on UK Pye in his collection, I've looked.