Anarchy In The World Of Record Collecting?

[Steve G]

Prompted by yet another "Manship auction" / "who are these idiots?" series of posts which always make me chuckle, I got thinking that the world of rare soul record collecting is now evolving more rapidly than ever before. The old style "northern" scene in the UK dies away to a hard core once again, but demand for records in part has been replaced by a global group of record collectors from all over the world.

All this has meant that old price guides are torn up and.....

....some once reasonably findable records sell for ever larger sums - upsetting the traditionalists, Irene & Scotts etc.

....trophy records continue to attract 'megabids' from the 'name your price' merchants,

....plenty of good rare records go unwanted / unsold.

....or conversely others sell for far more than the 'book' price to collectors who fret that they might never see another copy.

Then there are the swathes of "unsellable" mid price original oldies (£10-£500) where you can successfully grow ivy on the 'sales boxes' that house them cos no one seems to want them much anymore.

...And then there's the emperors new clothes from last season "funky edged northern" some great, some dreadful, some rare, some old soul pack fodder masquerading as the next super rarity.

Plenty to think about I'd have thought as the old rules get replaced by a new order in collecting?

[Dylan]

I will continue to try and find the good rare records that go unwanted or have a lack of interest buts its not easy.

one thing about this game i've found is that a logical analysis of things is just a waste of time.

[Corbett80]

Wonder if the beat ballads will ever be back in vogue???

[Dylan]

Wonder if the beat ballads will ever be back in vogue???

Never went out of style at my house. Well at least some of them anyway.

only yesterday gave jackie montre el "doomed by jealousy" a spin.

also looking forward to the return into fashion of mid tempo as well.

[NEV]

More collectors ...more competition for the rarities ...just not the common as muck stuff that most people already have .

Don't think it matters about whats en vogue ..if its rare and quality then it will still fetch a price imho .

Whats a beat ballad Joel

[Pete S]

Prompted by yet another "Manship auction" / "who are these idiots?" series of posts which always make me chuckle, I got thinking that the world of rare soul record collecting is now evolving more rapidly than ever before. The old style "northern" scene in the UK dies away to a hard core once again, but demand for records in part has been replaced by a global group of record collectors from all over the world.

All this has meant that old price guides are torn up and.....

....some once reasonably findable records sell for ever larger sums - upsetting the traditionalists, Irene & Scotts etc.

....trophy records continue to attract 'megabids' from the 'name your price' merchants,

....plenty of good rare records go unwanted / unsold.

....or conversely others sell for far more than the 'book' price to collectors who fret that they might never see another copy.

Then there are the swathes of "unsellable" mid price original oldies (£10-£500) where you can successfully grow ivy on the 'sales boxes' that house them cos no one seems to want them much anymore.

...And then there's the emperors new clothes from last season "funky edged northern" some great, some dreadful, some rare, some old soul pack fodder masquerading as the next super rarity.

Plenty to think about I'd have thought as the old rules get replaced by a new order in collecting?

Today's prize for stating the obvious goes to...

[Steve G]

....yeah well put it there cos hardly a week goes by without some old laggard moaning about this or that price or auction....

[Pete S]

....yeah well put it there cos hardly a week goes by without some old laggard moaning about this or that price or auction....

If you think an Atlantic demo of Solomon Burke selling for £500 isn't worth discussing then I'm not sure what you'd be interested in to be honest...

[Andyf]

....yeah well put it there cos hardly a week goes by without some old laggard moaning about this or that price or auction....

Old fair enough Steve, but I need a dictionary to see whether laggard applies.

[Blake H]

If it means the same old A-list collectors not getting first dibs and the little guys standing a chance I'm all for it, I hated the "You can't look in that box mate" syndrome.

BH

[Steve G]

If you think an Atlantic demo of Solomon Burke selling for £500 isn't worth discussing then I'm not sure what you'd be interested in to be honest...

That was amazing I must say......but it's not just about the JM auction.....

[Steve G]

I hated the "You can't look in that box mate" syndrome.

BH

Not really came across that myself Blake.....apart from one or two specific dealers, the only boxes I've ever seen for 'limited' viewing are to what some would describe as 'time wasters' which maybe should be another category / thread? Folk who pore over each record for five minutes, look at the b side, look at the a side again, turn the cogs in their brain and then move onto the next one, before going back for a second look at the first record. In the end they ask dealer how much the record is, and then baulk at the prospect of paying £10.....we've all encountered em!

[Dave Pinch]

Wonder if the beat ballads will ever be back in vogue???

probably in 20 years when were all with zimmers

[Guest Matt Male]

some great, some dreadful, some rare, some old soul pack fodder masquerading as the next super rarity.

That pretty much sums up all northern soul, not just the latest en-vogue sound.

The biggest tragedy on the scene isn't the increasing price of big money oldies and rare newies, it's the neglect of the thousands of fantastic cheapies that leads to such a narrow music policy almost everywhere.

[Milliontearsoul]

The best is yet to come or not.........If by luck or misadventure the day Chinese will discover soul music comes and began to collect then we will all be discontented by the records shortage ( like the gobi desert ) or be more than happy millionaires after selling them our collection.......

I personnaly think that the ones who are buying high value records to major dealers are Chinese MILLIONAIRES.....

[Codfromderby]

the chinese millionairs, is that a cover up, or the group that did youve got to ruv your baby, and the lains came,

sorry bad taste i know,

for me record collecting is just as you describe it, anarchy, ive had and got rare obscure, crap, in demand, good, however only the good seems to last, ive had a few rare originals that although rare are also for sale everywhere but expensive, ive had and got some stuff that is cheap and available but for some reason not championed, ive got a few that are good but not hardly ever seen, thats the strange world we like, and what makes it so interesting, personally i,m really impressed by this "condition, condition" angle to selling as i,m ok with playable records but some like m- or better

[Ian Dewhirst]

This could be a great thread.

Even in my limited capacity as a 'wide-range' Discogs vinyl seller, I'm seeing some interesting trends. New markets are emerging along with the traditional bedrock markets. Roughly 66% of my sales are abroad and more and more are coming from 'emerging markets' like Brazil, Russia and many of the old soviet block countries. It's like some of these guys are discovering 70's and 80's records for the first time and actively trying to hunt them down in the same way that we have for the last 60 years. Interesting stuff. It's almost like the stuff that we're all tired of, is the same stuff which is now inspiring new markets that never had easy access to it before. So certain markets will sweep up the stuff we leave and create their own scenes from our leftovers. Very organic really and a natural progession in it's own way.

I think the ethos of vinyl collecting is still very strong out there and the refreshing thing is that so many musically-minded young people still take it seriously. So an 18 year old guy in Brazil is only just discovering the stuff that we had in the 70's and, furthermore, wants it on the original vinyl? No probs. Bring it on!

Ian D

Edited June 8, 2012 by Ian Dewhirst

[Guest Bearsy]

Interesting point Ian... In the few years I've been in and around the scene I have noticed more and more peeps from all over europe and beyond buying selling tunes putting events on from nights to weekenders and not just ex pats, was talking to a good soulie friend about our recent purchases and the price some of them cost and some of them seem to be getting more expensive where some seem to be dropping in price quite quickly, yeah that's always happened but the popular oldies unless ultra rare don't seem to be holding there price like they was a few years back but many little forgotten tunes seem to be harder to find and the Europeans seem to have some absolute corkers not many of here know neVer mind own or play out, northern/rare soul is no longer just a British scene.... The music will live on and won't be many more years before the scene abroad is a big if not bigger than it is here hence maybe the crazy prices of many top quality rarities.... Could be wrong but that's how I'm starting to see it ..

[Guest giant]

Wonder if the beat ballads will ever be back in vogue???

i hope not

[Quinvy]

Someone has to create a buzz on records to make them become "wanted" and that's the problem. We don't have a regular venue that can champion good dance music.

In the old days we had weekly venues, and then I think Stafford was every two weeks? Please correct me if I'm wrong. We used to have monthly nighters, but now, it seems to be the trend for events to be on just three or four times a year.

In my humble opinion, you can't create a buzz on a record that nobody will hear for months.

There seems to be quite a lot of negativity towards anything successful on the rare soul scene. And despite people saying things like, You're playing oldies, it's all been done before, so and so has been playing that 45 for years etc. etc. The fact is, when I started the Burnley Allnighters, there was no other event that was playing 100% quality dance music all night. I was lucky enough to have a group of Dj's that had the same mind set as me, and lived for that nighter. And by that I mean spent rediculous amounts of time and money trying to find records to outdo each other, to find something brilliant that the others didn't own. This made for something very special, and I'm very proud of what we atchieved.

What I'm getting at is this. Despite some people saying this is rubbish, the demand and price of a lot of the stuff we were playing shot up. And I can give many examples of this, but the most glarinly obvious was the night when Fred Krol dug out his copy of Billy Davis - Stanky on Cobblestone. It went from £10 to £100 more or less overnight. And he only ever played it once.

The only Dj around who can create such a buzz is Butch, but that's because he's been number one for years, and his sets are listened to and dissected by everyone.

We need a regular [at least monthly] allnighter with Dj's that have the taste and passion to play sets that get people wanting to dance. That's what makes the prices of records go up. And that's why the beat ballad has died a death. Nobody will dance to them anymore.

I have now put my tin hat on, and retired to my bunker.

[boba]

I think now there is a lot more volatility in the prices as stuff goes in and out of fashion. I think before the price guides were out, ebay was similar, an item could go for $500 one day and $12 the same day. It puts experienced collectors who can pick out good records for cheap in an advantageous position. The price guides had the function of fixing the price, to some extent. Now that there isn't a very current one (and that there are so many different scenes to document) it's like there's not a guide.

The funniest is Osborne's guide, which was written at the absolute peak of prices, the worst UK-US exchange rate, and even taking that into account, has higher prices than any UK guides.

[Roburt]

I have to back up part of what Ian says above .........

Brazil used to be a great place to buy records from (not by actually visiting the country, that's too expensive for vinyl buying purposes), their 7" releases all played at 33rpm so to fill up the vinyl space there were just about as many 4 track 7" releases as exact local copies of US & UK singles. So down there you get lots of tracks on 7" that are LP only everywhere else. Coz of this, there were / are good things to seek out that were issued in Brazil.

A few years back I used to buy 60's, 70's & 80's releases from a number of dealers there & get great stuff at good prices (the 60's stuff had obviously been 'picked over' for some time so the best items had gone but there were still a few real goodies to be found).

... THEN ... Brazil became more affluent, the pound dropped against their currency & locals started to show an interest in old vinyl. Over the space of about 3 months, all the old 7" soul / disco-ish stuff went up in price (in UK £ terms) by about 400%.

I no longer even look to see what's available as a locally released EP (4 track 7") by say Major Harris, Al Green, Marvin Gaye or Ace Spectrum shot up from around £5 a copy to £20 to £25 a copy (haven't checked back there recently, so these prices may now be out of date). Not only that but the dealers that had always had 30 / 40 decent soul things on 7" went to having 1 or 2 instead. They told me it was because as soon as such items came in to them, they were being snapped up.

So what used to be a great 'happy hunting ground' has dried up & I no longer even check out what dealers over there have up for sale. Luckily I had a good 2 years or so when I got loads of stuff from down there.

[Steve G]

Someone has to create a buzz on records to make them become "wanted" and that's the problem. We don't have a regular venue that can champion good dance music.

In the old days we had weekly venues, and then I think Stafford was every two weeks? Please correct me if I'm wrong. We used to have monthly nighters, but now, it seems to be the trend for events to be on just three or four times a year.

In my humble opinion, you can't create a buzz on a record that nobody will hear for months.

I have now put my tin hat on, and retired to my bunker.

No need to put any hats on m8, it's a good discussion. And your view sums up the UK northern scene from the Burnley perspective. The lack of a truly regular upfront venue pushing new sounds does have an influence on creating demand for new northern records. But that's only a very small part of the collecting scene now, as we all know.

Without wishing to 'diss' the oldies brigade either (I can do that on other threads ) Ian makes a good point about many of the northern oldies on 45 not being wanted anymore - unless they are trophy 45s (or Butch has reactivated them) which is kind of where I was coming from. There is clearly a big demand for certain records (Tomangoes, Ty Karim being two examples from the last week, and you can add Eddie Parker, Del Larks, Salvadors etc to that list) but the majority of oldies - nah - you see the same records in boxes from one year to the next.

But collecting has always been about far more than just northern.....and when I said the "old rules" have changed I was referring to the globalisation of soul record collecting - with perhaps increased interest in all sorts of other styles and genres, replacing traditional northern "demand".

[boba]

But collecting has always been about far more than just northern.....and when I said the "old rules" have changed I was referring to the globalisation of soul record collecting - with perhaps increased interest in all sorts of other styles and genres, replacing traditional northern "demand".

I agree with this in the sense that a lot of the traditional northern sounds sound foreign and unappealing to new, younger, collectors. I'm not talking about just the pop records but the pounding soul that might have sounded awesome in a club in the 70s sounds boring and repetitive to certain people's ears. I think that a lot of the records with this sound that don't have another side that appeals to younger collectors will go down in value.

[Roburt]

Don't know what you're on about Steve !!!

It's impossible to dance to deep soul tracks so why would anyone wanna collect em; they should all be available for just a few pence each !!!

... when deep soul 45's are cheap again; all please contact me 1st as I'll buy everyone you have !!!

[Mark R]

Just reading this thread with interest, and was particularly engaged by the Chinese comments.

I'll explain why I say this, albeit not from a rare soul perspective. It's probably still valid as an indicator of what has been said here.

I stopped doing my Starpoint Radio shows back in February, so the last show I posted as a podcast was January.

I have been interested to see that despite posting no new content since then, I am still getting good interest, to the point where I'm still hovvering in the top 30 in my category.

I delved into the stats of this, and found that leading the way on the downloads is......you guessed it.....China. I have had x10 more downloads in China than the country in second place, which interestingly is Taiwan!!

So, as pointed out here....interesting times. There are a lot of people in China!! LOL

Cheers,

Mark R

[Pete S]

i hope not

I absolutely love beat ballads but I do prefer them for home use only

[Roburt]

RE: as pointed out here....interesting times. There are a lot of people in China!!

Mark, other people might be 'Big In Japan' .... but it seems that you're the guy for the Chinese market.

Catch the plane out there straight after the weekend (in fact go now, you've knowt much on today & tomorrow !!!)

Strike while the iron is hot & you'll be the main man in that market.

[Missgoldie]

All though this thread started with JM's auction in mind which I think is used mostly by English collectors (correct me if I'm wrong) and is an auction site that has always attracted over the top prices, soul records are well and truly a global commodity. What was once highly prized in the Northern scene doesn't hold up alone now and ensure high prices as there are 1000's of people like me that have been collecting for years out side of the English scene and have no nostalgia attached to many of these records.

With so many soul collectors buying from the R&B, deep, beach music, lowrider and popcorn scenes often vying for the same 45's ( albiet different sides). Add to that, northern soul collectors branch out into every good sub genre - funk, sweet, latin etc looking for new sounds which already have strong following within other scenes. Also with popsike and collectors frenzy giving pricing information and a chance to see how many are on the open market people can throw their cash into genuinely rare items (and you only need 3 people too dumb to snipe and it's an all out shit fight), lets face it these 45's are virtually antiques the prices can only go up.

Who's to say the Tomangoes that went on ebay last week wasn't bought by a deep soul or lowrider collector for the other side

Edited June 9, 2012 by missgoldie

[Quinvy]

Who's to say the Tomangoes that went on ebay last week wasn't bought by a deep soul or lowrider collector for the other side

Me, I know the gentleman that won it and he collects a wide spectrum of styles of music, but he has a fantastic northern section.

Edited June 9, 2012 by Quinvy

[Kev Cane]

Prompted by yet another "Manship auction" / "who are these idiots?" series of posts which always make me chuckle, I got thinking that the world of rare soul record collecting is now evolving more rapidly than ever before. The old style "northern" scene in the UK dies away to a hard core once again, but demand for records in part has been replaced by a global group of record collectors from all over the world.

All this has meant that old price guides are torn up and.....

....some once reasonably findable records sell for ever larger sums - upsetting the traditionalists, Irene & Scotts etc.

....trophy records continue to attract 'megabids' from the 'name your price' merchants,

....plenty of good rare records go unwanted / unsold.

....or conversely others sell for far more than the 'book' price to collectors who fret that they might never see another copy.

Then there are the swathes of "unsellable" mid price original oldies (£10-£500) where you can successfully grow ivy on the 'sales boxes' that house them cos no one seems to want them much anymore.

...And then there's the emperors new clothes from last season "funky edged northern" some great, some dreadful, some rare, some old soul pack fodder masquerading as the next super rarity.

Plenty to think about I'd have thought as the old rules get replaced by a new order in collecting?

Not far wrong IMHO Steve

Kev

[Dylan]

Who's to say the Tomangoes that went on ebay last week wasn't bought by a deep soul or lowrider collector for the other side

Me, I know the gentleman that won it and he collects a wide spectrum of styles of music, but he has a fantastic northern section.

I don't think the deep soul flip is good enough to warrant that kind of price tag even for the most ardent deep soul fan.

its OK but no where near a holy grail in terms of the sound.

[Missgoldie]

I don't think the deep soul flip is good enough to warrant that kind of price tag even for the most ardent deep soul fan.

its OK but no where near a holy grail in terms of the sound.

It was a shit stir comment, of cause it was a NS collector who bought it. Personally I think it's a brillant deepie. A well known collector of another genre of music routinely use to put $5000 snipes on 45's he was after... he had the cash and wanted the record bad enough.

[Guest gordon russell]

Wonder if the beat ballads will ever be back in vogue???

hope not

[Dylan]

Don't know what you're on about Steve !!!

It's impossible to dance to deep soul tracks so why would anyone wanna collect em; they should all be available for just a few pence each !!!

... when deep soul 45's are cheap again; all please contact me 1st as I'll buy everyone you have !!!

some of the prices i'm seeing thing sell for on ebay now compared to 5 to 10 years ago this has already started...........

richard marks on free spirit a couple have just sold way under what I thought they were worth.

[Dylan]

It was a shit stir comment, of cause it was a NS collector who bought it. Personally I think it's a brillant deepie. A well known collector of another genre of music routinely use to put $5000 snipes on 45's he was after... he had the cash and wanted the record bad enough.

keep trying with this one but I can't get past that annoying flute.

[Guest Dave Turner]

keep trying with this one but I can't get past that annoying flute.

Where we differ on this one fella. Understand what you're saying re the flute but I quite like it, just makes it a bit different and easy listening.

So there

[Geoff B]

The best is yet to come or not.........If by luck or misadventure the day Chinese will discover soul music comes and began to collect then we will all be discontented by the records shortage ( like the gobi desert ) or be more than happy millionaires after selling them our collection.......

I personnaly think that the ones who are buying high value records to major dealers are Chinese MILLIONAIRES.....

Won't the chinese just copy (boot) them like they do most other things.

[Steve G]

Yes I thought that Geoff, but if everything else is any measure, we'll be able to tell the difference quite easily

[Dylan]

Where we differ on this one fella. Understand what you're saying re the flute but I quite like it, just makes it a bit different and easy listening.

So there

oh please don't make me have to go listen to it again.

the flute is still rattling round my head from last time.

now if there were an unissued take without the flute then I might be interested.

[Quinvy]

Won't the chinese just copy (boot) them like they do most other things.

Brilliant......You'll be able to get big ticket 45's to order............3 x Del Larks, 2 x Jimmy Burns and a James Fountain o-on Peach Tree.........

[MrsWoodsrules]

Personally think its a no brainier, post internet, as the market is now global including the u.s & Japan, like any market, with increased demand for limited commodity & prices will inflate, you could apply the same logic to philately or star wars shite.

Not saying the rarity reflects the value necessarily, cos it clearly dont, but that's what happens.

On the other foot, as more players enter the game, some records are frequently turning up more, that were previously thought more scarce and so contract in price.

Aid.

[boba]

Personally think its a no brainier, post internet, as the market is now global including the u.s & Japan, like any market, with increased demand for limited commodity & prices will inflate, you could apply the same logic to philately or star wars shite.

Not saying the rarity reflects the value necessarily, cos it clearly dont, but that's what happens.

On the other foot, as more players enter the game, some records are frequently turning up more, that were previously thought more scarce and so contract in price.

Aid.

it's different than stamp collecting and star wars as there are many different genres of records. I agree prices may go up in general due to demand but the demand will be for specific sounds, not every record will be worth money.

a perfect example is looking at those old soul bowl sales list. Everyone is like "I could have had timeless legend for 8 pounds". What about the 95% of the other records that are the same price (which is less adjusted for inflation) or even less than they were 30 years ago?

[Dave Fleming]

Not really came across that myself Blake.....apart from one or two specific dealers, the only boxes I've ever seen for 'limited' viewing are to what some would describe as 'time wasters' which maybe should be another category / thread? Folk who pore over each record for five minutes, look at the b side, look at the a side again, turn the cogs in their brain and then move onto the next one, before going back for a second look at the first record. In the end they ask dealer how much the record is, and then baulk at the prospect of paying £10.....we've all encountered em!

I remember being at Soul Essence many years ago and asking a tall scotsman named John if i could look

through a small mailer box he was holding,and to my suprise he said no these are for Steve G to look through!

Dave f......

[Steve G]

Nice one Dave./...

[MrsWoodsrules]

it's different than stamp collecting and star wars as there are many different genres of records. I agree prices may go up in general due to demand but the demand will be for specific sounds, not every record will be worth money.

a perfect example is looking at those old soul bowl sales list. Everyone is like "I could have had timeless legend for 8 pounds". What about the 95% of the other records that are the same price (which is less adjusted for inflation) or even less than they were 30 years ago?

It's a fair point Bob & I see that logic, I'm no stamp collector but I'm a graphic designer & used to work for a stamp magazine, plenty of different (specialist) genres in that world too & I read very similar arguments put forward about global prices & the Internet, not saying its the same, just think its a question of generic supply & demand & is bound to inflate. Not saying there is any logic in why certain one do & certain ones don't.

Aid.

Edited June 9, 2012 by MrsWoodsrules

[boba]

It's a fair point Bob & I see that logic, I'm no stamp collector but I'm a graphic designer & used to work for a stamp magazine, plenty of different (specialist) genres in that world too & I read very similar arguments put forward about global prices & the Internet, not saying its the same, just think its a question of generic supply & demand & is bound to inflate. Not saying there is any logic in why certain one do & certain ones don't.

Aid.

I'm agreeing with your point about more collectors meaning higher prices. I'm just saying that there are so many records that in demand records will be very expensive and most other records won't be worth much as all those collectors are generally looking for the same few things.

[MrsWoodsrules]

I'm agreeing with your point about more collectors meaning higher prices. I'm just saying that there are so many records that in demand records will be very expensive and most other records won't be worth much as all those collectors are generally looking for the same few things.

Gotcha Bob, point taken.

Aid

[Missgoldie]

keep trying with this one but I can't get past that annoying flute.

I love the flute in this.... horses for courses

[Geeselad]

Trouble is it can all be so misleading, like assuming that a records relativly common cause you've seen multiple copies for sale in the last month, its often the case that several collectors are off loading the same tunes at the same time, tunes are ofetn like buses, you wait for ages...........