News:Manship auction process exposed

[Soulsmith]

Hi Col,

Yeah we met at the Volks Tavern.

As for "Rambler" ? Would love to know who it is, enquiries will be made.

Derek

Seem to remember you giving me a bit of a talking to......

[Guest]

Seem to remember you giving me a bit of a talking to......

Possibly........then again i was very very drunk

Derek

[Pete S]

Hi Col,

Yeah we met at the Volks Tavern.

As for "Rambler" ? Would love to know who it is, enquiries will be made.

Derek

Why do you want to know who Rambler is? He's entitled to an opinion without you chasing him off the site.

[Guest Netspeaky]

Why do you want to know who Rambler is? He's entitled to an opinion without you chasing him off the site.

With you on this one, Pete, if nothing else it actually cleared the air on this one, not only did JM come on to defend himself, but a lot of respected soulies also came to JM defence, so a NOT GUILTY verdict was reached.

I think we should actually thank Rambler for bringing the topic to the debating table, I'm sure now his heard the other side, he will realise he was wrong and we should ALL let the matter rest.

[Guest Soulscene]

I have known John for many many years and I have bought records off him personelly and off his auction, as he has auctioned pieces for me in the past. For what John takes in fees I cannot even consider him doing anything to harm his reputation by uping bids, it doesn't make sense from a business level.

John has a Global reputation and this alone will increase his prices as will his credit cards facilities. BUT the main reason for the higher prices in my humble eyes is that you have a source to go to if there is a problem and lets be honest with what has been happening on Ebay over the years that is worth a premium. I for one hate Ebay to me it has took the romance out of record collecting, there was nothing more rewarding than going to the States on a good ole record hunt, everyone waiting for you to come back, asking what you had found and the thrill of finding it........now all gone. I personally believe that nothing un-toward goes on with the bids on John's Auctions and would not hesitate in recommending him for what he is a record dealer with an excellent reputation.

Soulscene

[soulfulsaint]

With you on this one, Pete, if nothing else it actually cleared the air on this one, not only did JM come on to defend himself, but a lot of respected soulies also came to JM defence, so a NOT GUILTY verdict was reached.

I think we should actually thank Rambler for bringing the topic to the debating table, I'm sure now his heard the other side, he will realise he was wrong and we should ALL let the matter rest.

I almost agree - except for the fact that the title of this thread remains negative and implies wrong doing on Johnny Manship's part.

John has not only defended himself he has done so with quite remarkable patience. I bid on his site and my most recent win was George Blackwell, which I paid below my highest bid and below the book price. It was very transparent. In this case I was more than happy to bid high. I have always been a bit of a completist and already have all Smoke releases - Herbs Exsayvons etc. In that sense I was willing to go above the record's book value becasue its important to me and how/why I collect. In this case I've wanted a mint copy of 'Can't Lose My Head' for 30 years - so it was my heart not my head that was judging the record's value to me.

If someone choses to pay more for a very specific reason - high quality service, security and peace of mind, or just because they had a free hour at work then they are neither fools nor dupes, they are doing what people do in every free market in the world. They are paying a premium for something they want.

JM's site like Soul Source is a great addition to the overall knowledge base of rare soul and should be supported. Yes its about business, but its also about the exchange of knowledge and information too - I sometimes don't bid but love reading JM's descriptions of records, which are always informed and evocative of the scene and the passion we share for rare soul.

I'd like to make one final point, and that is about the way we are nostalgic for the pre-auction era - record boxes on a table in the corner of an all-nighter. I love pepetuating myths as much as the next guy, but I've looked through enough collector's boxes to know that hyped prices and exaggerated value are not unique to the internet bidding system. The lists of the '70s and '80s were vulnerable to misrepresntation just as much as the internet. The record bar at Wigan was populated by very knowledgeable and decent collectors but they had to rub shoulders with rogues, fruadsters, bootleggers and common or garden egomaniacs. By comparsion with that particular jungle John Manship's site is ordered and honest.

Great debate tho'

'SoulfulSaint' aka Stuart Cosgrove

....And St Johnstone remain the only team in Britain with a J in their name.

[Pete S]

I think what all this boils down to in the end is that some of the prices on John's auctions end up at two or three times the value that they would if they were put on a set sale, and people - including me - find that hard to get their heads round. Like, who would pay 300 quid for something when they can buy it off a dealers set sale list for 100? Why would anyone pay 600 quid or whatever it was for a Stateside demo - any Stateside demo. It's not a slight on the auctions, more so on the people who pay the crazy prices, and some of those prices are hard to believe. Hard to believe someone would actually pay that price I mean.

[Guest Baz]

BUT the main reason for the higher prices in my humble eyes is that you have a source to go to if there is a problem and lets be honest with what has been happening on Ebay over the years that is worth a premium. I for one hate Ebay to me it has took the romance out of record collecting, there was nothing more rewarding than going to the States on a good ole record hunt, everyone waiting for you to come back, asking what you had found and the thrill of finding it........now all gone.

Soulscene

I for one love ebay its opened it up no end to collectors, not every one gets the chance to go on a busmans holiday to America to search for records, so befor it was all down to lists and dealers at nights/nighters to pick up your wants but now you can sit at home and search out your wants, some people might dissagree saying its too easy doing it that way! hell it dont bother me, get fed up with trawling through boxes night after night when you could be doing other things like chatting/dancing and getting drunk. Ebay has done me many a favour with records picking things up for a few dollars when i would have had to pay £10-50 for most things it also gives people the chance to actually get a look in on records rather than constantly ringing up and you get the inevitable 'sorry its gone' so Ebay i take my hat of to you.

[Guest]

Why do you want to know who Rambler is? He's entitled to an opinion without you chasing him off the site.

It was a bit more than an opinion mate. As i read it he accused JM of being dishonest.

If people are going to make accusations like that they should have the guts reveal their identity.

Derek

[Guest]

I think we have all found bargains to be had on ebay at one time or another

hell sometimes it can be real bite your nails stuff specially when youre waiting

on that last refresh to see if youve won or not!

But its not until its in your hands (or under the needle)

that you really know the difference between sellers gradings!

John on the other hand in my hummble opinion grades just

as said on the tin, and futhermore if in the highly unlikely event

that you disagree with him you have a customer satisfaction policy

behind you! A re-dress that is not allways there on ebay.

As for extended auction times what could be fairer ,Its great to snipe

in the dying seconds (how many of us have done that in our time)

But what of the seller who is now legally bound to sell !

(Should have paid the extra to protect it perhaps !silly boy)

But these decisions and options are there for all who set up an auction

and these are usually dictated upon how much your willing to pay ebay in costs.

Suspicion of John running his auctions in any way other than honourably

are i beleive unfounded it is upto the bidder to set his price

and if he dosent win ,well what has been gained by john if theoretically

he was the winning bidder,and Mr mysterious bidder paid 3 times its worth wins?

Ok so now its price hiking,

Do you really think that on its next outing its going to have a mass of bidders

now bidding super bucks just because thats what it made before!

Every record has a reserve min and anything over that is what its made

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush etc business is busines

and of course JM is in business to make a profit,

So where is his profit with mr mysterious ???

Holding it back so that next time it makes more ,well i find that quite frankly absurd ,

Think about it your prepaired to pay £250 you dont win and now

3 mths later your looking to having to bid £750+ in the new auction!

are you seriously going to be bidding in that auction?

Ok you may add another few bob on top of your first ceiling bids

but come on no ones making you bid are they!

John will take the highest bona fide bid and sell ,of course he will

that is a profit , and a sale!

Its cashflow in the right direction just as any good business should be run.

I am sure as eggs are eggs JM will take the bird in the hand rather than try to catch the 3 at once

for that might be a long time coming.

And just for the record i bought my best bargain from John this year!

Jackie Edwards Oh Mary red &white Island orig,plays beautifully £4.00!

How much would that have made in auction?

[Boogaloo]

It was a bit more than an opinion mate. As i read it he accused JM of being dishonest.

If people are going to make accusations like that they should have the guts reveal their identity.

Derek

Couldn't agree more. This scene will always have people with opinions. No problem with that but I find it hypocritical that someone can accuse someone of hiding bidders names using a 'handle' when they enjoy the annonymitiy of being able to hide behind a pseudonym on this site.

Another point which I don't think has been mentioned on this thread is the fact that JM has saved me (and probably loads of other collectors) mucho dinero by publishing his bootleg book which is essential if you buy off ebay etc.

Warren Boogaloo

[Guest]

For centuries, leadership and rallying calls have fascinated many innocents and misplaced minds and lead them to misfortune and latter day regret. Stepping back, being unemotional and maintaining stone cold clarity are essential to come to a conclusion based on facts. To achieve clarity in a spinning world of smoke and mirrors, it is important not to lose sight of the FACTS and the QUESTIONS they raise. For this reason, media vehicles and freedom of speech without fear of retribution are critical to developing discourse, clarity and enabling the informed democracy and right of opinion that unfolds.

E-mails to the forum owners, denial of anonymous right and suggestions of libel to other forum members are bullying tactics and echo of blind arrogance in my opinion, and do not serve to reach clarity. In addition, warring calls of support do still not detract from the facts, and the facts are very clear.

Below is The Ramblers personal response to JM.

Firstly, the facts

The Rambler did not start this thread and debate. YOU DID, when you influenced someone to wax eloquence about the integrity of your auction, a topic which many people have doubts about.

FACTS: You have admitted that you have bid on your own auctions and you have also admitted to have bought 2 records yourself, because they would have sold too cheaply.

QUESTION 1: For every record you have bid on and won, how many exactly have you bid on and lost?

QUESTION 2: In how many of your auctions have you been the 2nd highest bidder?

FACTS: You have posted a bid history on here that shows a bidder named Lisa in the final day of auction, bidding £150. Also when you posted the bid history you didn't name Lisa in your apologies, along with Adam and Peter.

QUESTION 1: Was Lisa, in fact you or someone in your employment?

QUESTION 2: If so, why don't you just use your own e-mail addresses rather than a Hotmail account?

Secondly, answers to your questions and posts

In one of your postings you state "The Rambler seeks to gain from "bad mouthing". That statement was both impolite and untrue. The Rambler never bad mouths anyone. The Rambler also has nothing to gain or any axe to grind. That is unless, seeking out, challenging, expressing an opinion and saying what the majority are thinking is what you are referring to.

You raised question in one of your latter posts as to whether I run an auction. Not to worry, your insecurity is unjustified in this respect. However, if I did run one, it would be along the same lines of another major dealer. The details of which I have posted below just to give you a flavour as you are obviously interested.

NORTHERN RARITIES AUCTION...

Welcome to our new auction site for the rarest Northern Soul Originals. We will auction only the rare, scarce and unseen 45's. not for us the auctioning of relatively common discs In order to screw the last penny out of a price. Nor do we want to be bothered with logging-in, bid-upping, automated deadline extensions and other paraphernalia designed for the benefit of the dealer. It's a simple system - send us a written bid via e-mail, fax or letter by the deadline shown and if you are the winner we will contact you back. For reasons of honourability full name should be supplied. Strictly NO verbal bids please. All bids are subject to additional postal costs and are binding.

We will endeavour to have a monthly change of titles and it goes without saying that we will auction your rare records for you at a commission rate.

Thirdly, a final word.

Could you do something positive for our collecting scene by being upfront and transparent, and tell everyone exactly what was found in the west coast haul and also, exactly how many copies you have of Jackie Day, The Servicemen, Johnny Summers, The Trey J's, The Miracle Walkers, The Cautions (You know, the one that you suddenly marked up in your latest guide edition, remember?), Court Davies, The Delrays and the C-Quents. I have a much more comprehensive list if you are feeling particularly transparent to you fellow collectors.

Also, ref. your statement in one of your posts, does that mean that we can expect to see another copy of The Magnetics on Bonnie up for auction in the near future?

Thank-you for coming online and participating in the debate, I'm looking forward to your future positive contributions and sharing of knowledge.

Just as always,

The Rambler

PS - Thank-you for the scores of e-mails in support from forum members and others.

Edited December 30, 2005 by Rambler

[Guest]

It was a bit more than an opinion mate. As i read it he accused JM of being dishonest.

If people are going to make accusations like that they should have the guts reveal their identity.

Derek

Dear Derek

My inquiry is strictly scoped to the auction process, as in the title of the thread. Honesty and Integrity levels of a person are a subjective thing depending on ones own standards. I have my opinion regarding the auction process based on the known facts. and I'm sure you have yours. I hope this clarifies my position for you.

Rambler

[Guest]

Can I take this opportunity to thank all those of you who know me well enough to say nice things about me and my staff, we really do appreciate your support.

I am very well used to criticism and rumour and sometime down right lies. But I felt this time enough was enough and The Rambler's comments were "a bridge too far"

Whilst in the 80s I was losing a everything i owned as a "Video retailer" I actually got a stiff lesson in retailing. Making a quick ££ or two is not the way, I'm building my business to pass on to my workers and family and it's built on honesty and customer satisfaction not the profit, but when you have those profit is more likely.

No doubt we shall continue to get stick at some time or other. But questioning me or my staffs honesty. remembering it Lisa or Stella who do 95% of the auction admin. I will react vigorously and take legal action if necessary.

Since the very start of our "Live" auction area, we have kept meticulous records on every bid. We have times to the very second, amounts bid, e-mail address names of bidders, everything required to prove an authentic honest auction.

Our website hosts and program writer are not "mates" they are a national company who have contracts with multi-national companies inc: The BBC. They would be delighted tol varify, that at the beginning of the auction developement, we stressed we did NOT want to to able to view maximum "proxy bids".

This policy was validated when an Australian collector won Billy Woods on Sussex for 3030 and told me afterwards "thanks for you integrity" "Why?" I asked and he told me his proxy bid was £7,000 I'm sure Paul Cridge will varify this. And many others have said they won records for far less than their maximum bid..that's great because you come back and make the auction successful, which is what we're striving to do.

So Rambler you are totally out of order, and we don't really appreciate mud-slinging when it just suits your own purposes to do so.

Anyhow, water under the bridge now. Once again thanks to you all for your support and comments.

And of coarse if there is anything you guys can think of that will improve our auction service we will be most pleased to hear from you.

John and all @ raresoulman.co.uk

[Guest Baz]

Good to see you have come on here defending your self John, speaking on netural ground, i dont know you, have bought and sold to you in the passed and have always been more than happy with the service! i can see from a collectors point of view it can be alittle missleading at times when some stuff does go for way beyond 'normal' price, but these are usually the very indemand titles and are always in mint condition so i can see sometimes why they go for alot, and all it take is for two people to put in high proxy bids to try and 'secure' the item then, of course the price will go through the roof!

I hope you continue to use the site as im sure your contributions would be very interesting and helpful to alot of members like myself

[Pete S]

Who was Rambler in Black Echoes then ?

There were (at least) two but one was from the West Midlands

[Guest 50box]

There were (at least) two but one was from the West Midlands

AHA! Do you really want us to believe you left all those red & whites behind

[Soulsmith]

Who was Rambler in Black Echoes then ?

It was originally Paul Philips the editor. They just made the name up to make it more interesting.

[SteveM]

It's can't be, can it? He didn't use the word anethema so it can't be.

Or 'ephemeral' in the wrong context.

[sister dawn]

been reading this "topic" with interest, and like so many have found the implications made or "hinted at" terrible, I over the years (and I assume) so many of you have bought many a record of Manship's right back to my teenage years when the old price list used to be posted then spend many an hour trying to get through on the phone in the old telephone boxes, I like many others used to take me chances with a "bargin pack" bought blind and have never been disappointed. I have over a period of time collected Northern, not shall I say in a serious way but the ones that I like and love to dance too, I have several retail outlets that I use when buying, including the likes of Ebay and Gemm, the one that sticks out in my opinion of being honest and reliable is that of Raresoulman, I can hear the sound albeit briefly (but can cross reference the sound to soul club as many of you do) I know the grading that is done by John and the girls is spot on and you pay for what you get, as you do in the "normal" retail world, i.e if you want quality you pay for it. How many of us have bought blind from ebay only to have some crap landing on the doormat, at least you get a gurantee from John.

How many of the serious collectors amongst you use the "the bible" that John and others had a hand in compiling, and how many of you that sell on a regular basis have put up your prices accordingly due to this publication.

Rambler I dont know who you are geezer, but have some decorum mate and respect please, Mr Manship and others have done this scene a massive favour over the decades and without their knowledge, skills and experience We as a scene would not have many of the fantastic tunes that we have now.

Dawn Roberts

[Platters 81]

who was "the Driveller" in Shades of Soul......?

[Paulw]

been reading this "topic" with interest, and like so many have found the implications made or "hinted at" terrible, I over the years (and I assume) so many of you have bought many a record of Manship's right back to my teenage years when the old price list used to be posted then spend many an hour trying to get through on the phone in the old telephone boxes, I like many others used to take me chances with a "bargin pack" bought blind and have never been disappointed. I have over a period of time collected Northern, not shall I say in a serious way but the ones that I like and love to dance too, I have several retail outlets that I use when buying, including the likes of Ebay and Gemm, the one that sticks out in my opinion of being honest and reliable is that of Raresoulman, I can hear the sound albeit briefly (but can cross reference the sound to soul club as many of you do) I know the grading that is done by John and the girls is spot on and you pay for what you get, as you do in the "normal" retail world, i.e if you want quality you pay for it. How many of us have bought blind from ebay only to have some crap landing on the doormat, at least you get a gurantee from John.

How many of the serious collectors amongst you use the "the bible" that John and others had a hand in compiling, and how many of you that sell on a regular basis have put up your prices accordingly due to this publication.

Rambler I dont know who you are geezer, but have some decorum mate and respect please, Mr Manship and others have done this scene a massive favour over the decades and without their knowledge, skills and experience We as a scene would not have many of the fantastic tunes that we have now.

Dawn Roberts

I SECOND THAT EMOTION!!

Absolute nailed on FACT!

[Pete S]

How many of the serious collectors amongst you use the "the bible" that John and others had a hand in compiling, and how many of you that sell on a regular basis have put up your prices accordingly due to this publication.

We all have, and in my opinion thats a bad thing - a very bad thing. Things were fine without it, when skill and knowledge came into use.

who was "the Driveller" in Shades of Soul......?

Nick Brown...

[Guest]

Things were fine without it, when skill and knowledge came into use.

Me i was fukced then,and fukced now...................

[sister dawn]

We all have, and in my opinion thats a bad thing - a very bad thing. Things were fine without it, when skill and knowledge came into use.

Bad thing or good thing isnt the option here Pete, what is, Is the doubting of integrity or the implied accusations made by persons unknown about someone whom has been on this scene for many a year and in my opinion Is an honest and reliable person. Whichever way you read the original post the accusation has been made.

[Mark Bicknell]

I think this is a disgrace personally, that Jonh Manship's good name, integrity and reputation should be questioned here, it's almost the last straw for me what with all the politics and the numerous other crap this fucking scene needs to take a very close look at it's self before it implodes, what the hell would John gain from bumping up the prices etc. i would suggest he's been in buisness all these years because he's a fair a decent guy, this is slander or at least the implications of slander and i would'nt blame John if he took a serious look at some form of litigation towards these comments.

Mark Bicknell.

[SteveM]

I think this is a disgrace personally, that Jonh Manship's good name, integrity and reputation should be questioned here, it's almost the last straw for me what with all the politics and the numerous other crap this fucking scene needs to take a very close look at it's self before it implodes, what the hell would John gain from bumping up the prices etc. i would suggest he's been in buisness all these years because he's a fair a decent guy, this is slander or at least the implications of slander and i would'nt blame John if he took a serious look at some form of litigation towards these comments.

Mark Bicknell.

Well said Mark, glad that someone with your standing can post their view so clearly on this matter'

Steve

[steve z]

We all have, and in my opinion thats a bad thing - a very bad thing. Things were fine without it, when skill and knowledge came into use.

Nick Brown...

Pete, double standards "WE ALL HAVE" then to say "A VERY BAD THING"....skill and knowledge came into use....You mean before WE started to Have Knowledge.ATVB Stevie Z

[Guest Trevski]

I have known JM since the days of Cleethorpes etc. Have bought of him many times, and got quite a few bargains too! I take my hat off to him. He has done what many of us can only dream about, make a (more) than decent living out of the music we love. I wish I had the business sense to do so! Good luck to him, now and for the future Anyone who doesn't like his auction, then dont bid, simple as that. I know many who have sold thru' JM's auction, who have sold to him for other reasons, and all have been more than satisfied. I have rung John with trades, when he has had something listed that I didn't have the ££ for, and the trades he took were no more than the record I wanted was worth. JM is a business man, and a successful one, which some people don't seem to like, but dishonest?? Not a chance.

[Dave]

I think this is a disgrace personally, that Jonh Manship's good name, integrity and reputation should be questioned here, it's almost the last straw for me what with all the politics and the numerous other crap this fucking scene needs to take a very close look at it's self before it implodes, what the hell would John gain from bumping up the prices etc. i would suggest he's been in buisness all these years because he's a fair a decent guy, this is slander or at least the implications of slander and i would'nt blame John if he took a serious look at some form of litigation towards these comments.

Mark Bicknell.

I've just read though this thread and I couldn't agree more Mark.

It seems a little ironic to me that three long term members have been warned and effectively suspended from posting our true thoughts because we used some naughty words last week, yet a member hiding behind a pseudonym and with very few posts behind them is able to make defammatory comments about the business procedures of a respected member of the soul scene and thats ok?

I think Mr Manship has been more than reasonable in the way he has conducted himself and if he hasn't already taken legal advice on these possibly libellous allegations, publicly displayed here, he is a very tolerant man indeed.

[Soulsmith]

I think this is a disgrace personally, that Jonh Manship's good name, integrity and reputation should be questioned here, it's almost the last straw for me what with all the politics and the numerous other crap this fucking scene needs to take a very close look at it's self before it implodes, what the hell would John gain from bumping up the prices etc. i would suggest he's been in buisness all these years because he's a fair a decent guy, this is slander or at least the implications of slander and i would'nt blame John if he took a serious look at some form of litigation towards these comments.

Mark Bicknell.

I am sure your comments are well meaning, but,

the first half comes across as a bit pious

the second half is equivalent to fanning the flames with a liberal dose of petrol.

Col.

[Mark Bicknell]

One final point regarding the West Coast haul and finding multi counts or boxes of big titles which may or not be true, who in their right mind would declare such information? perhaps when 'big quanitity' turns up then a more realistic set sale selling price is the best thing to do i.e. Danny Moore, Royal Esquires, Dream Team etc. then everyone who wants a copy has a fair chance of getting one at a fair price, as Trevski said if you don't like auctions, their methods or practices then simply don't bid.

I would suggest that Mike Hughes closes this topic as i'm sure we all feel that this topic has very much over stepped the mark be it fact, fiction, true or otherwise, it all seems just a little too heavy.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

[SteveM]

I am sure your comments are well meaning, but,

the first half comes across as a bit pious

the second half is equivalent to fanning the flames with a liberal dose of petrol.

Col.

Pious Col ?

After an anonymous poster with a handful of posts (the majority having a go at John Manship) refuses to divulge his true identity and attempts to justify it with the arrogant crap below ;-

For centuries, leadership and rallying calls have fascinated many innocents and misplaced minds and lead them to misfortune and latter day regret. Stepping back, being unemotional and maintaining stone cold clarity are essential to come to a conclusion based on facts. To achieve clarity in a spinning world of smoke and mirrors, it is important not to lose sight of the FACTS and the QUESTIONS they raise. For this reason, media vehicles and freedom of speech without fear of retribution are critical to developing discourse, clarity and enabling the informed democracy and right of opinion that unfolds.

Lets see who he is and if anybody has any facts to relate or questions to ask of him.

And should that quote be attributed to somebody ?

He started the fire, if somebody choses to fan his flames, then so be it in my opinion.

[Guest Soultown andy]

I dont ever buy through auctions but have dealt with JM to complete satisfaction in a deal worth a lot of money and found him to be honest and trust worthy,as for nice but dim well thats a different story.

[Larsc]

In between ramblings, distorted quotes and general lack of logic a good point was made:

FACTS: You have admitted that you have bid on your own auctions and you have also admitted to have bought 2 records yourself,

I have no serious doubts about John Manships honesty but bidding on your own auction is a bit untidy. It makes people doubt the integrity of the auction. It would be good business sense not to do so in the future.

Rambler: You should be careful. Most message boards log your ip address. The address can be traced back to your computer. If JM wishes to take your statements to court he will easily be able to identify you.

[FrankM]

After an anonymous poster with a handful of posts (the majority having a go at John Manship) refuses to divulge his true identity and attempts to justify it with the arrogant crap below ;-

For centuries, leadership and rallying calls have fascinated many innocents and misplaced minds and lead them to misfortune and latter day regret. Stepping back, being unemotional and maintaining stone cold clarity are essential to come to a conclusion based on facts. To achieve clarity in a spinning world of smoke and mirrors, it is important not to lose sight of the FACTS and the QUESTIONS they raise. For this reason, media vehicles and freedom of speech without fear of retribution are critical to developing discourse, clarity and enabling the informed democracy and right of opinion that unfolds.

And should that quote be attributed to somebody ?

It can only be Mr. Misunderstood himself, Kevin Rowland

[Mark Bicknell]

I am sure your comments are well meaning, but,

the first half comes across as a bit pious

the second half is equivalent to fanning the flames with a liberal dose of petrol.

Col.

Oh well.

Mark Bicknell.

[Quinvy]

For centuries, leadership and rallying calls have fascinated many innocents and misplaced minds and lead them to misfortune and latter day regret. Stepping back, being unemotional and maintaining stone cold clarity are essential to come to a conclusion based on facts. To achieve clarity in a spinning world of smoke and mirrors, it is important not to lose sight of the FACTS and the QUESTIONS they raise. For this reason, media vehicles and freedom of speech without fear of retribution are critical to developing discourse, clarity and enabling the informed democracy and right of opinion that unfolds.

E-mails to the forum owners, denial of anonymous right and suggestions of libel to other forum members are bullying tactics and echo of blind arrogance in my opinion, and do not serve to reach clarity. In addition, warring calls of support do still not detract from the facts, and the facts are very clear.

Below is The Ramblers personal response to JM.

Firstly, the facts

The Rambler did not start this thread and debate. YOU DID, when you influenced someone to wax eloquence about the integrity of your auction, a topic which many people have doubts about.

FACTS: You have admitted that you have bid on your own auctions and you have also admitted to have bought 2 records yourself, because they would have sold too cheaply.

QUESTION 1: For every record you have bid on and won, how many exactly have you bid on and lost?

QUESTION 2: In how many of your auctions have you been the 2nd highest bidder?

FACTS: You have posted a bid history on here that shows a bidder named Lisa in the final day of auction, bidding £150. Also when you posted the bid history you didn't name Lisa in your apologies, along with Adam and Peter.

QUESTION 1: Was Lisa, in fact you or someone in your employment?

QUESTION 2: If so, why don't you just use your own e-mail addresses rather than a Hotmail account?

Secondly, answers to your questions and posts

In one of your postings you state "The Rambler seeks to gain from "bad mouthing". That statement was both impolite and untrue. The Rambler never bad mouths anyone. The Rambler also has nothing to gain or any axe to grind. That is unless, seeking out, challenging, expressing an opinion and saying what the majority are thinking is what you are referring to.

You raised question in one of your latter posts as to whether I run an auction. Not to worry, your insecurity is unjustified in this respect. However, if I did run one, it would be along the same lines of another major dealer. The details of which I have posted below just to give you a flavour as you are obviously interested.

NORTHERN RARITIES AUCTION...

Welcome to our new auction site for the rarest Northern Soul Originals. We will auction only the rare, scarce and unseen 45's. not for us the auctioning of relatively common discs In order to screw the last penny out of a price. Nor do we want to be bothered with logging-in, bid-upping, automated deadline extensions and other paraphernalia designed for the benefit of the dealer. It's a simple system - send us a written bid via e-mail, fax or letter by the deadline shown and if you are the winner we will contact you back. For reasons of honourability full name should be supplied. Strictly NO verbal bids please. All bids are subject to additional postal costs and are binding.

We will endeavour to have a monthly change of titles and it goes without saying that we will auction your rare records for you at a commission rate.

Thirdly, a final word.

Could you do something positive for our collecting scene by being upfront and transparent, and tell everyone exactly what was found in the west coast haul and also, exactly how many copies you have of Jackie Day, The Servicemen, Johnny Summers, The Trey J's, The Miracle Walkers, The Cautions (You know, the one that you suddenly marked up in your latest guide edition, remember?), Court Davies, The Delrays and the C-Quents. I have a much more comprehensive list if you are feeling particularly transparent to you fellow collectors.

Also, ref. your statement in one of your posts, does that mean that we can expect to see another copy of The Magnetics on Bonnie up for auction in the near future?

Thank-you for coming online and participating in the debate, I'm looking forward to your future positive contributions and sharing of knowledge.

Just as always,

The Rambler

PS - Thank-you for the scores of e-mails in support from forum members and others.

Hang on, let me get my head round this. You are calling John's live and totally open auction a fraud, and in the same breath, recomending Goldmines covert undercover auction, as the ideal. You are having a laugh mate. Can't wait to send in my email, with my bid, and then wait and see if I've won. Oh, hang on, no, only the winner is informed. Oh, I must have lost. I wonder who won it? and I wonder how much it went for? Still, great fun though, can't wait to have another go. This could really catch on, and there's no way any wrong doing can happen with this fool proof system.

What a load of cobblers. Phil.

[steve z]

Hang on, let me get my head round this. You are calling John's live and totally open auction a fraud, and in the same breath, recomending Goldmines covert undercover auction, as the ideal. You are having a laugh mate. Can't wait to send in my email, with my bid, and then wait and see if I've won. Oh, hang on, no, only the winner is informed. Oh, I must have lost. I wonder who won it? and I wonder how much it went for? Still, great fun though, can't wait to have another go. This could really catch on, and there's no way any wrong doing can happen with this fool proof system.

What a load of cobblers. Phil.

PHIL,SPOT ON..........Steve..

[Mark Bicknell]

I am sure your comments are well meaning, but,

the first half comes across as a bit pious

the second half is equivalent to fanning the flames with a liberal dose of petrol.

Col.

No i mean what i say and i stick by my comments...would it be pious if your good name and reputation were in question here...i think not.

Col i've sent you a private message off line because this is not really our battle is it? which should underline my comments, which were meant in good faith and simply showing some support, i would have said the same things if it was aimed at anyone not just John Manship.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

[Guest 50box]

One final point regarding the West Coast haul and finding multi counts or boxes of big titles which may or not be true, who in their right mind would declare such information? perhaps when 'big quanitity' turns up then a more realistic set sale selling price is the best thing to do i.e. Danny Moore, Royal Esquires, Dream Team etc. then everyone who wants a copy has a fair chance of getting one at a fair price, as Trevski said if you don't like auctions, their methods or practices then simply don't bid.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

No that`s not right IMO, donno if it`s legal, but what if every butcher said they had one bit of meat left?

Tom.

[Eamesy]

I would suggest that Mike Hughes closes this topic as i'm sure we all feel that this topic has very much over stepped the mark be it fact, fiction, true or otherwise, it all seems just a little too heavy.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

[Guest]

Words well put Mark

The traps that were there when John decide to run auctions

were bound to surface sooner or later,

But prices used as comparison and based on here is the closing prices on ebay?

my further point is that rare records that surface on the bay often leave someone

kicking themselves because they should and would have bidded more

than there original reserves (its happened to me more than once)

Because lets face it everyone is after a bargain when it comes to ebay

Yet we are on that many auctions at any one time that we all have a limit,(some you win some you lose)

So this leaves JM completely open when a bidder buys at 2/3 times what has ever been seen on ebay

to suspicions.

I know for a fact 2 people who either through receiving bad records or none at all

through ebay auctions will not consider using ebay at all (and have sworn not to do so again!)

and i suspect there are many others that when it comes to parting with big money on ebay

think twice before bidding!

In my opinion and readers may take it or leave it,

John is a soulman first and formost

He deserves to be respected for his contribution and dedication

and what he has built up over the last 30 years has given him

a good living that most would envy

The very idea that all of a sudden in his later years he has become Mr Avarice

wanting to scrape every last drop of ££s out of a single

is frankly proposterous,

Any business man that would think of such a scheme

would not have been in buisness for so long nor

would he jepordize his own baby to make a quick buck,

Yes john knows the highest bid However that bidder may well not be there the next time round?

[Mark Bicknell]

No that`s not right IMO, donno if it`s legal, but what if every butcher said they had one bit of meat left?

Tom.

Fair comment.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

[Guest]

Dont normaly get involved in this sort of debate normaly just come on to take the piss

But met jm a few years ago now have bought and sold to him he,s always been fair with me and as for his price guide wot a piece of marketing for jm records you might not agree with the price but it,s hell of a referance book mind and at the end of the day it,s a guide it,s not law a record is only worth what we are prepared to pay for it if you don,t think it,s worth it DONT BUY IT OR DONT BID

Keep up the good work john

HB (AKA NIGE SHAW)

[steve z]

Fair comment.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

HI Mark ,just wanna play tunes...got tied up in opinions

[Mark Bicknell]

HI Mark ,just wanna play tunes...got tied up in opinions

HERE! HERE! Stevie, best to say nothing mate, if you have an opinion then someone else has a box to put it in....lol

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

[Guest]

Before the Rambler signs off from this thread. Just a few words of clarification for some members that have misquoted or misunderstood me.

The Rambler has never implied or used the word fraud in connection with JM.

The Ramblers first post was upfront and clearly states as follows: "Anyhow, before I start, I will make clear that nothing in this post is intended as an allegation or slant, but is intended to illustrate the current debate and views".

The Rambler did not start this debate, the debate regarding JMs auctions had been brewing for many many months on this forum, and other forums. It is a debate already talked openly about in the public domain. The Rambler crystalised it for the purpose of objective analysis. Please do not shoot the messenger.

The recent posting from Lars has confirmed and acknowledged the Ramblers central point and personal opinion, which is.... The working practices and delivery of the JM auction brings its integrity into question with many collectors. Please think about it, if the point was not true, then we would not have a debate that has developed over many many months, long before this thread.

Finally, the Rambler is legally well versed and supported, and as such is not intimidated by anyone.

Wishing everyone, supporters and non supporters a very happy and prosperous new year.

The Rambler

[Soulsmith]

No i mean what i say and i stick by my comments...would it be pious if your good name and reputation were in question here...i think not.

Col i've sent you a private message off line because this is not really our battle is it? which should underline my comments, which were meant in good faith and simply showing some support, i would have said the same things if it was aimed at anyone not just John Manship.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

Thanks for taking time out to e-mail Mark.

Appreciate your point of view

col

[Mark Bicknell]

Thanks for taking time out to e-mail Mark.

Appreciate your point of view

col

respect.

Mark Bicknell.