News:Manship auction process exposed

[Guest]

An ugly rumour has begun to surface recently regarding the honesty and integrity of the auctioning process on John Manship's Web site.  I recently auctioned one of my own records on his site, and can categorically state that no impropriety took place, nor that any tampering, fixing or perversion of the process occurred, to mine, or any other records. He actually sent me a print out of all the bids to confirm this. I have always found John Manship to be upright, honest and reliable, and can attest to his integrity in all matters.

Rob Moss 

https://www.soul-source.co.uk/news/...p?storyid=12534

[Chalky]

I've watched the bidding many a time and if logged in you can clearly see who the bidders are.

[Guest Netspeaky]

Are they mad, they let themselves be known that they pay way over the odds on Manships auctions, strange people.

[Guest]

An ugly rumour has begun to surface recently regarding the honesty and integrity of the auctioning process on John Manship's Web site. I recently auctioned one of my own records on his site, and can categorically state that no impropriety took place, nor that any tampering, fixing or perversion of the process occurred, to mine, or any other records. He actually sent me a print out of all the bids to confirm this. I have always found John Manship to be upright, honest and reliable, and can attest to his integrity in all matters.

Rob Moss

https://www.soul-source.co.uk/news/...p?storyid=12534

Rob, with respect, unless you had total transparency of the process, there is no way you can realistically attest to the integrity around JM's auctions. It's natural that if JM achieved a high price for one of your discs, that you would feel a sense of satisfaction, and your statement above is a kind thing to do.

JM probably realizes that people's opinions are wavering, and reputation can spread fast, which is possibly why he constantly courts people and customers to make testimonies on forums such as these. In my opinion this is manipulation and the exploitation of kind people in the main and this is something that needs to be checked, hence this following post. I am also curious as to how and on what basis this topic has found its way onto the latest news, key feature board? No pressure or threats I hope.

Anyhow, before I start, I will make clear that nothing in this post is intended as an allegation or slant, but is intended to illustrate the current debate and views.

Rob, you say that he sent you the bid list. However, no one can be certain as to who has actually bid. The bid list (which you are right, he does have) contains handle names only. It is also a fact that strange behavior surrounds certain handle names that have been behind the win and escalated bidding of many auction records. Such records have often been auctioned again within weeks or a few short months. Thus leading to the suspicion that JM uses these phantom handles to create a bidding history and drive up records to a maximum based on who has bid, and the proxy maximums in place. JM does, without any question (regardless of his claims that he had the programmers write it out), have the ability to view every bidder's maximum bid. With this, it is entirely possible for JM to maximize prices. JM will say what has he to gain by 'bidding-up' auctions as he only receives 10%, hardly a king's ransom. In the bigger picture, JM does in fact have a lot to gain. His whole business model is geared around an ever escalating price index. He needs this to warrant his Price Guide editions, and to increase the value of his asset, against which, he can legitimately borrow and fund his investments in publications, stock acquisition (west coast haul) etc. Beyond the revenue yield, JM's Price Guide is of huge strategic importance. It pulls a mass of inventory to him, via consignment from various US sources and also private sellers into auctions. It is a vehicle by which he manages the rare soul market globally. You see Rob, people thought JM was mad publishing a Price Guide, and giving away the 'secrets' to American suppliers, it could only make things harder for him to attain stock and make money. This is true... UNLESS the game changes to a high inflationary price index, then, with a huge stock behind him and with the authority the guide has given him, means margins are greater than ever. Volume turnover can be lower, but margin contribution is through the roof, and the bottom line has never been better.

Rob, it's in the business model that lie's the motive that many are suspicious of. He may very well achieve great prices from time to time, but in reality, he only needs 1 real bidder to drive a price up. Why do you think he has crazy rules about last minute extensions, some would argue its to view the bidders top proxy and push up to the maximum, or at least to a price that fits his Guide. In this way it would be entirely understandable how he achieves the results he does. It isn't because punters trust him more than any other open auction (e-bay etc), it is quite simply ...manipulation.

In summary, the 6 key issues are;

1. Bidder's real identities not known.

2. Phantom handles being used by JM

3. JM claiming he now collects again, has a way of him justifying not selling to the highest bidder (I mean, if you run an auction, how can you be a bidder in it????!!!! - CRAZY!!)

4. Phone bidding

5. Visibility of proxy bids

6. Extended auction time

These 6 things above, hardly promote transparency and as such, questions integrity. Rob, this is why the debate has evolved, and will continue until JM does what is in his power to do, and addresses the issues above. Until then, speculation will continue, regardless of any testimonial.

As previously stated, this post is intended as a way of illustrating the current debate and skepticism that exists.

I have my own opinions which reflect the logic and circumstances outlined above, but everyone to their own.

Edited December 29, 2005 by Rambler

[Guest]

Rob, with respect, unless you had total transparency of the process, there is no way you can realistically attest to the integrity around JM's auctions. It's natural that if JM achieved a high price for one of your discs, that you would feel a sense of satisfaction, and your statement above is a kind thing to do.

JM probably realizes that people's opinions are wavering, and reputation can spread fast, which is possibly why he constantly courts people and customers to make testimonies on forums such as these. In my opinion this is manipulation and the exploitation of kind people in the main and this is something that needs to be checked, hence this following post. I am also curious as to how and on what basis this topic has found its way onto the latest news, key feature board? No pressure or threats I hope.

Anyhow, before I start, I will make clear that nothing in this post is intended as an allegation or slant, but is intended to illustrate the current debate and views.

Rob, you say that he sent you the bid list. However, no one can be certain as to who has actually bid. The bid list (which you are right, he does have) contains handle names only. It is also a fact that strange behavior surrounds certain handle names that have been behind the win and escalated bidding of many auction records. Such records have often been auctioned again within weeks or a few short months. Thus leading to the suspicion that JM uses these phantom handles to create a bidding history and drive up records to a maximum based on who has bid, and the proxy maximums in place. JM does, without any question (regardless of his claims that he had the programmers write it out), have the ability to view every bidder's maximum bid. With this, it is entirely possible for JM to maximize prices. JM will say what has he to gain by 'bidding-up' auctions as he only receives 10%, hardly a king's ransom. In the bigger picture, JM does in fact have a lot to gain. His whole business model is geared around an ever escalating price index. He needs this to warrant his Price Guide editions, and to increase the value of his asset, against which, he can legitimately borrow and fund his investments in publications, stock acquisition (west coast haul) etc. Beyond the revenue yield, JM's Price Guide is of huge strategic importance. It pulls a mass of inventory to him, via consignment from various US sources and also private sellers into auctions. It is a vehicle by which he manages the rare soul market globally. You see Rob, people thought JM was mad publishing a Price Guide, and giving away the 'secrets' to American suppliers, it could only make things harder for him to attain stock and make money. This is true... UNLESS the game changes to a high inflationary price index, then, with a huge stock behind him and with the authority the guide has given him, means margins are greater than ever. Volume turnover can be lower, but margin contribution is through the roof, and the bottom line has never been better.

Rob, it's in the business model that lie's the motive that many are suspicious of. He may very well achieve great prices from time to time, but in reality, he only needs 1 real bidder to drive a price up. Why do you think he has crazy rules about last minute extensions, some would argue its to view the bidders top proxy and push up to the maximum, or at least to a price that fits his Guide. In this way it would be entirely understandable how he achieves the results he does. It isn't because punters trust him more than any other open auction (e-bay etc), it is quite simply ...manipulation.

In summary, the 6 key issues are;

1. Bidder's real identities not known.

2. Phantom handles being used by JM

3. JM claiming he now collects again, has a way of him justifying not selling to the highest bidder (I mean, if you run an auction, how can you be a bidder in it????!!!! - CRAZY!!)

4. Phone bidding

5. Visibility of proxy bids

6. Extended auction time

These 6 things above, hardly promote transparency and as such questions integrity. Rob, this is why the debate has evolved, and will continue until JM does what is in his power to due and address the issues above. Until then, speculation will continue, regardless of any testimonial.

As previously stated, this post is intended as a way of illustrating the current debate and skepticism that exists.

I have my own opinions which reflect the logic and circumstances outlined above, but everyone to their own.

"Rambler"

It would be nice and transparent if your true identity were known. Not just a "handle"

Cheers

Derek Jack

[Guest]

"Rambler"

It would be nice and transparent if your true identity were known. Not just a "handle"

Cheers

Derek Jack

"Derek Jack"

It would also be nice if you could actually add something to the thread. Not just a "mishandle"

Cheers,

Rambler

Edited December 29, 2005 by Rambler

[Guest]

Rob, with respect, unless you had total transparency of the process, there is no way you can realistically attest to the integrity around JM's auctions. It's natural that if JM achieved a high price for one of your discs, that you would feel a sense of satisfaction, and your statement above is a kind thing to do.

JM probably realizes that people's opinions are wavering, and reputation can spread fast, which is possibly why he constantly courts people and customers to make testimonies on forums such as these. In my opinion this is manipulation and the exploitation of kind people in the main and this is something that needs to be checked, hence this following post. I am also curious as to how and on what basis this topic has found its way onto the latest news, key feature board? No pressure or threats I hope.

Anyhow, before I start, I will make clear that nothing in this post is intended as an allegation or slant, but is intended to illustrate the current debate and views.

Rob, you say that he sent you the bid list. However, no one can be certain as to who has actually bid. The bid list (which you are right, he does have) contains handle names only. It is also a fact that strange behavior surrounds certain handle names that have been behind the win and escalated bidding of many auction records. Such records have often been auctioned again within weeks or a few short months. Thus leading to the suspicion that JM uses these phantom handles to create a bidding history and drive up records to a maximum based on who has bid, and the proxy maximums in place. JM does, without any question (regardless of his claims that he had the programmers write it out), have the ability to view every bidder's maximum bid. With this, it is entirely possible for JM to maximize prices. JM will say what has he to gain by 'bidding-up' auctions as he only receives 10%, hardly a king's ransom. In the bigger picture, JM does in fact have a lot to gain. His whole business model is geared around an ever escalating price index. He needs this to warrant his Price Guide editions, and to increase the value of his asset, against which, he can legitimately borrow and fund his investments in publications, stock acquisition (west coast haul) etc. Beyond the revenue yield, JM's Price Guide is of huge strategic importance. It pulls a mass of inventory to him, via consignment from various US sources and also private sellers into auctions. It is a vehicle by which he manages the rare soul market globally. You see Rob, people thought JM was mad publishing a Price Guide, and giving away the 'secrets' to American suppliers, it could only make things harder for him to attain stock and make money. This is true... UNLESS the game changes to a high inflationary price index, then, with a huge stock behind him and with the authority the guide has given him, means margins are greater than ever. Volume turnover can be lower, but margin contribution is through the roof, and the bottom line has never been better.

Rob, it's in the business model that lie's the motive that many are suspicious of. He may very well achieve great prices from time to time, but in reality, he only needs 1 real bidder to drive a price up. Why do you think he has crazy rules about last minute extensions, some would argue its to view the bidders top proxy and push up to the maximum, or at least to a price that fits his Guide. In this way it would be entirely understandable how he achieves the results he does. It isn't because punters trust him more than any other open auction (e-bay etc), it is quite simply ...manipulation.

In summary, the 6 key issues are;

1. Bidder's real identities not known.

2. Phantom handles being used by JM

3. JM claiming he now collects again, has a way of him justifying not selling to the highest bidder (I mean, if you run an auction, how can you be a bidder in it????!!!! - CRAZY!!)

4. Phone bidding

5. Visibility of proxy bids

6. Extended auction time

These 6 things above, hardly promote transparency and as such, questions integrity. Rob, this is why the debate has evolved, and will continue until JM does what is in his power to do, and addresses the issues above. Until then, speculation will continue, regardless of any testimonial.

As previously stated, this post is intended as a way of illustrating the current debate and skepticism that exists.

I have my own opinions which reflect the logic and circumstances outlined above, but everyone to their own.

Rambler,

Well said, spot on!

Having seen (and bid on ) Manships auctions I cannot understand for the life of me why he does not post a list of those bidding. Why the big secret even if they are just "handles"? let me see who I'm bidding against, after a while the handles become known anyway, so what!

And why is the next minimum bid always quoted for you?

e.g. Current Bid: £200: Bid Increment £ 15:

Who decided on the £15??????

Personally speaking I have never liked auctions IMO they rarely reflect what a record is worth only what someone is willing to pay for it!

e.g. Ruby Andrews - Just Loving You. Reality £125, Auction £325(approx)

Can't blame the sellers for trying to get maxium profit on their product, just never seen the morals in a third party jacking up the price for us poor unwashed

[Dennisoul]

Ultimately as in all auctions if it goes out of ones price range dinny buy it.We`ve all payed a bit extra from time to time for what we want so it must still surely be up to the individual whether to buy or not.

[Martyn Pitt]

Having been through the auction process to conclusion once, I would never buy off it again, I would certainly advise any one considering buying off it to avoid the proxy bid / maximum bid system this is clearly where the flaw lies, and where the ability to manipulate is possible.

I had been after a particular record for a long time, not expensive or particularly rare, just elusive, one appeared on the auction site, I decided to go for it.

I entered the process, gradually increasing my 'maximum bid' figure as the auction progressed, the final day arrived and it was clear that there were two of us interested in the record, we vied for position outbidding each other by small amounts, we were up around the £200 mark, (about the most it was worth, however it was mint, it had proved elusive and I wanted it so was prepared to go over this to say £250).

Getting close to the finish time it was obvious it was only the two of us, we had nudged each other up to close to £250, having suffered a minor hiccup in placing my latest bid in time I decided to put a maximum bid of £300, I was hoping to pay less, but it was there should I get the computer hiccup again.

I took the lead at £256, the clock ticked down, (we had extended the finish time by 15 minutes), the other guy had given up, the pattern on the bid history was me, him, me, him all the way down the list, then with seconds to go came a totally new bidder £299, this pushed me to my maximum £300.

Strange amount £299, anyone willing to pay that would have gone £300, if it was genuine and the bidder was willing to pay that, why no follow up bid when the £299 failed, where was this bidder earlier in the auction?

I am suspicious by nature, £299 is a precise amount and only bid once, I see two possibilities, either a prankster or manipulation by someone who can see my maximum bid amount.

Martyn

[Headsy]

nobody in any business undersells their ''stock'' when they know it will appreciate in price either long or short term,if you are sitting on 100,000 soul records ( as an example ) and you dont need to sell them all this month/year to make a living and you know replacement costs are higher you drive the price up.and you cannot blame him at all for that,just plain business sense.

[Chalky]

Rambler,

Well said, spot on!

Having seen (and bid on ) Manships auctions I cannot understand for the life of me why he does not post a list of those bidding. Why the big secret even if they are just "handles"? let me see who I'm bidding against, after a while the handles become known anyway, so what!

And why is the next minimum bid always quoted for you?

e.g. Current Bid: £200: Bid Increment £ 15:

Who decided on the £15??????

Personally speaking I have never liked auctions IMO they rarely reflect what a record is worth only what someone is willing to pay for it!

e.g. Ruby Andrews - Just Loving You. Reality £125, Auction £325(approx)

Can't blame the sellers for trying to get maxium profit on their product, just never seen the morals in a third party jacking up the price for us poor unwashed

User names or handles as you call them are used on all auction sites so why single one out?

And Ruby Andrews £125 real price I'd have said £30 is a more realistic price

[Guest Netspeaky]

Rambler,

Well said, spot on!

Having seen (and bid on ) Manships auctions I cannot understand for the life of me why he does not post a list of those bidding. Why the big secret even if they are just "handles"? let me see who I'm bidding against, after a while the handles become known anyway, so what!

And why is the next minimum bid always quoted for you?

e.g. Current Bid: £200: Bid Increment £ 15:

Who decided on the £15?????? When I was running SOULBID there was an option for the seller to set a bid increment on an item, so I guess this is what JM has done, personally I rarely used it, as I thought the default of $1 was always the better option to entice people to bid. There was also an option to extend the bid time if a winning bid came in the last minute, and this extended every minute until someone drop out, again I didn't switch this option on, although I can see from JM's point of view it pays to extend the auction finish time.

Personally speaking I have never liked auctions IMO they rarely reflect what a record is worth only what someone is willing to pay for it!

e.g. Ruby Andrews - Just Loving You. Reality £125, Auction £325(approx)

Can't blame the sellers for trying to get maxium profit on their product, just never seen the morals in a third party jacking up the price for us poor unwashed

What I can't understand with JM auctions, if someone has the ability to log on to JM's site why they don't look around on the net for the item, as possibly they will find it for a lot less. Me thinks the JURY is still out on this one.

Edited December 29, 2005 by Netspeaky

[Chalky]

"Rambler"

It would be nice and transparent if your true identity were known. Not just a "handle"

Cheers

Derek Jack

[Pete S]

"Rambler"

It would be nice and transparent if your true identity were known. Not just a "handle"

Cheers

Derek Jack

The same applies to several other people on here!

Also, it looks as if the orignal post is issued by Soul Source officially, seeing as the poster has changed his name to Soul-Source.

[mischief]

sorry didn't read back how I meant it so deleated it

Edited December 29, 2005 by mischief

[Boogaloo]

This is a topic that fascinates all soulies 'How does he get his prices!!' The answer is..... no one knows and in my experience of buying twice off his auctions I didn't experience any price bumping. We all know we will pay 'over the top' but it's how far we're willing to go. The one thing missing from this thread seems to be PROOF. Can't try a man without it.

Warren Boogaloo

[Martyn Pitt]

Willie J - Boogie With Your Baby - went through auction a few months ago, and achieves a price in excess of £250, may have been £283.

Within a couple of weeks one appears on the set sale list for £250, and has been there ever since, surely the bidder who came second would have snapped up this bargain, so why is it still there?

Martyn

[Ted Massey]

I can not believe that John Manship would ever get up to anything dodgey not now or ever in the past.

[mischief]

Willie J - Boogie With Your Baby - went through auction a few months ago, and achieves a price in excess of £250, may have been £283.

Within a couple of weeks one appears on the set sale list for £250, and has been there ever since, surely the bidder who came second would have snapped up this bargain, so why is it still there?

Martyn

Maybe spent there money on something else.

[Guest]

I can not believe that John Manship would ever get up to anything dodgey not now or ever in the past.

Thanks Ted but you're old school aren't you.

[Simsy]

I can not believe that John Manship would ever get up to anything dodgey not now or ever in the past.

Agreed. I know we marvel at his prices at times, but as far as the auctions are concerned they're driven by the punters. He sold an Ace Spectrum for me some time back on his auction. Everything went smoothly, it went for top dollar and I ended up with a couple of nice singles I'd been after and a decent chunk of change.

JM is reputable and trustworthy in short. His records are always in good nick as described. Although he's quite a busy boy, if you phone him with a query, he'll usually take your call.

Pretty much and all round good egg imo. Be a bit miffed if he wasn't around.

[Guest]

Willie J - Boogie With Your Baby - went through auction a few months ago, and achieves a price in excess of £250, may have been £283.

Within a couple of weeks one appears on the set sale list for £250, and has been there ever since, surely the bidder who came second would have snapped up this bargain, so why is it still there?

Martyn

Ref:

Boogie With Your Baby was sold for ROGER PHILIPS and won by S.E. ROCHE (we can supply both e-mail address if your still suspicious) for £288 posted to him 02/06/05,

copy on the site added is ours AND A DIFFERENT CONDITION added to the site 04/07/05 @ £250.00 does that help you?

Agreed. I know we marvel at his prices at times, but as far as the auctions are concerned they're driven by the punters. He sold an Ace Spectrum for me some time back on his auction. Everything went smoothly, it went for top dollar and I ended up with a couple of nice singles I'd been after and a decent chunk of change.

JM is reputable and trustworthy in short. His records are always in good nick as described. Although he's quite a busy boy, if you phone him with a query, he'll usually take your call.

Pretty much and all round good egg imo. Be a bit miffed if he wasn't around.

THANKS MUM

[Guest Bearsoul]

I'VE BEEN BUYING OFF JOHN FOR EONS AND ALWAYS HAD TOP DEALS , GRADINGS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN ACCURATE. I'M AWARE THIS THREAD IS ABOUT THE AUCTION YET FEEL IT'S A LITTLE UNFAIR TO BESMIRCH SOMEONE'S GOOD NAME AND 'LIVELIHOOD' ! WITHOUT ANY TANGIBLE PROOF. NOW.....EBAY ...THERE'S A TARGET....I'VE LOST BIG TIME ON THERE WITHOUT ANY COMPENSATION OR PRODUCT.....AND THEREFORE AVOID AUCTIONS GENERALLY.....IF ANYONES NOT HAPPY WHY NOT PICK UP THE PHONE AND RING JOHN.........HE'S THERE.....EASY TO CONTACT AND ACCOUNTABLE.....UNLIKE THE FLY-BY-NIGHTS ON EBAY WHO ARE ALLOWED TO TRADE UNDER NEW DISGUISES TO OPERATE THEIR LATEST SCAM.

CHRIS MORGAN

[Guest]

Having been through the auction process to conclusion once, I would never buy off it again, I would certainly advise any one considering buying off it to avoid the proxy bid / maximum bid system this is clearly where the flaw lies, and where the ability to manipulate is possible.

I had been after a particular record for a long time, not expensive or particularly rare, just elusive, one appeared on the auction site, I decided to go for it.

I entered the process, gradually increasing my 'maximum bid' figure as the auction progressed, the final day arrived and it was clear that there were two of us interested in the record, we vied for position outbidding each other by small amounts, we were up around the £200 mark, (about the most it was worth, however it was mint, it had proved elusive and I wanted it so was prepared to go over this to say £250).

Getting close to the finish time it was obvious it was only the two of us, we had nudged each other up to close to £250, having suffered a minor hiccup in placing my latest bid in time I decided to put a maximum bid of £300, I was hoping to pay less, but it was there should I get the computer hiccup again.

I took the lead at £256, the clock ticked down, (we had extended the finish time by 15 minutes), the other guy had given up, the pattern on the bid history was me, him, me, him all the way down the list, then with seconds to go came a totally new bidder £299, this pushed me to my maximum £300.

Strange amount £299, anyone willing to pay that would have gone £300, if it was genuine and the bidder was willing to pay that, why no follow up bid when the £299 failed, where was this bidder earlier in the auction?

I am suspicious by nature, £299 is a precise amount and only bid once, I see two possibilities, either a prankster or manipulation by someone who can see my maximum bid amount.

Martyn

Martyn,

If you tell us what record you were bidding on, we shall supp[ly a FULL bidding history to the very second all bids were made and by whom. Please do let us know, because this entry could be considered libel. Perhaps if you fully understood you were bidding against another bidders proxy bid and the website was adding the increment that would perhaps make it clearer. john

[Martyn Pitt]

Ref:

Boogie With Your Baby was sold for ROGER PHILIPS and won by S.E. ROCHE (we can supply both e-mail address if your still suspicious) for £288 posted to him 02/06/05,

copy on the site added is ours AND A DIFFERENT CONDITION added to the site 04/07/05 @ £250.00 does that help you?

THANKS MUM

Thanks for the clearing that up John, it was something that had stuck in my mind mainly because I could not believe what the record sold for, and at the time did appear to be a bit strange.

As your up to answering questions do you find that when a record does go for a good price on auction you get a surge of people wanting you to sell their copy for them?

Martyn

[Martyn Pitt]

Martyn,

If you tell us what record you were bidding on, we shall supp[ly a FULL bidding history to the very second all bids were made and by whom. Please do let us know, because this entry could be considered libel. Perhaps if you fully understood you were bidding against another bidders proxy bid and the website was adding the increment that would perhaps make it clearer. john

John

I would appreciate that thank you, the record was 21st Century - Shadow Of A Memory auction date 16/1/05

Martyn

[Pete S]

It's good to see John Manship on here. You get your answer straight from the horses mouth. I hope he will stay around to join in with the general discussion about records and not just this topic.

[Simsy]

It's good to see John Manship on here. You get your answer straight from the horses mouth. I hope he will stay around to join in with the general discussion about records and not just this topic.

Here here.

Speaking in my capacity as John's mum it would be nice if we saw him on here regularly.

[Quinvy]

I'VE BEEN BUYING OFF JOHN FOR EONS AND ALWAYS HAD TOP DEALS , GRADINGS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN ACCURATE. I'M AWARE THIS THREAD IS ABOUT THE AUCTION YET FEEL IT'S A LITTLE UNFAIR TO BESMIRCH SOMEONE'S GOOD NAME AND 'LIVELIHOOD' ! WITHOUT ANY TANGIBLE PROOF. NOW.....EBAY ...THERE'S A TARGET....I'VE LOST BIG TIME ON THERE WITHOUT ANY COMPENSATION OR PRODUCT.....AND THEREFORE AVOID AUCTIONS GENERALLY.....IF ANYONES NOT HAPPY WHY NOT PICK UP THE PHONE AND RING JOHN.........HE'S THERE.....EASY TO CONTACT AND ACCOUNTABLE.....UNLIKE THE FLY-BY-NIGHTS ON EBAY WHO ARE ALLOWED TO TRADE UNDER NEW DISGUISES TO OPERATE THEIR LATEST SCAM.

CHRIS MORGAN

Chris has hit the nail on the head here. The reason that people will pay over the odds for records off John's auction is, if you are not happy with your purchase, he will refund you, with no hassle. Compare that to ebay, where I for one, have been ripped off many times. The fact is that people trust John because he runs his business in a totally professional way. He has sold records for me, and I have bought records, from his auction. I have no hesitation in doing business with him, and trust his integrity.

In short, I like the guy.

Phil.

[Guest]

Rob, with respect, unless you had total transparency of the process, there is no way you can realistically attest to the integrity around JM's auctions. It's natural that if JM achieved a high price for one of your discs, that you would feel a sense of satisfaction, and your statement above is a kind thing to do.

JM probably realizes that people's opinions are wavering, and reputation can spread fast, which is possibly why he constantly courts people and customers to make testimonies on forums such as these. In my opinion this is manipulation and the exploitation of kind people in the main and this is something that needs to be checked, hence this following post. I am also curious as to how and on what basis this topic has found its way onto the latest news, key feature board? No pressure or threats I hope.

Anyhow, before I start, I will make clear that nothing in this post is intended as an allegation or slant, but is intended to illustrate the current debate and views.

Rob, you say that he sent you the bid list. However, no one can be certain as to who has actually bid. The bid list (which you are right, he does have) contains handle names only. It is also a fact that strange behavior surrounds certain handle names that have been behind the win and escalated bidding of many auction records. Such records have often been auctioned again within weeks or a few short months. Thus leading to the suspicion that JM uses these phantom handles to create a bidding history and drive up records to a maximum based on who has bid, and the proxy maximums in place. JM does, without any question (regardless of his claims that he had the programmers write it out), have the ability to view every bidder's maximum bid. With this, it is entirely possible for JM to maximize prices. JM will say what has he to gain by 'bidding-up' auctions as he only receives 10%, hardly a king's ransom. In the bigger picture, JM does in fact have a lot to gain. His whole business model is geared around an ever escalating price index. He needs this to warrant his Price Guide editions, and to increase the value of his asset, against which, he can legitimately borrow and fund his investments in publications, stock acquisition (west coast haul) etc. Beyond the revenue yield, JM's Price Guide is of huge strategic importance. It pulls a mass of inventory to him, via consignment from various US sources and also private sellers into auctions. It is a vehicle by which he manages the rare soul market globally. You see Rob, people thought JM was mad publishing a Price Guide, and giving away the 'secrets' to American suppliers, it could only make things harder for him to attain stock and make money. This is true... UNLESS the game changes to a high inflationary price index, then, with a huge stock behind him and with the authority the guide has given him, means margins are greater than ever. Volume turnover can be lower, but margin contribution is through the roof, and the bottom line has never been better.

Rob, it's in the business model that lie's the motive that many are suspicious of. He may very well achieve great prices from time to time, but in reality, he only needs 1 real bidder to drive a price up. Why do you think he has crazy rules about last minute extensions, some would argue its to view the bidders top proxy and push up to the maximum, or at least to a price that fits his Guide. In this way it would be entirely understandable how he achieves the results he does. It isn't because punters trust him more than any other open auction (e-bay etc), it is quite simply ...manipulation.

In summary, the 6 key issues are;

1. Bidder's real identities not known.

2. Phantom handles being used by JM

3. JM claiming he now collects again, has a way of him justifying not selling to the highest bidder (I mean, if you run an auction, how can you be a bidder in it????!!!! - CRAZY!!)

4. Phone bidding

5. Visibility of proxy bids

6. Extended auction time

These 6 things above, hardly promote transparency and as such, questions integrity. Rob, this is why the debate has evolved, and will continue until JM does what is in his power to do, and addresses the issues above. Until then, speculation will continue, regardless of any testimonial.

As previously stated, this post is intended as a way of illustrating the current debate and skepticism that exists.

I have my own opinions which reflect the logic and circumstances outlined above, but everyone to their own.

Rambler,

Would not normally give you the credibilty of a reply BUT we take our hard earned reputation very seriously this listing suggests The Rambler seeks to gain from "bad mouthing" us. I take each point at a time.

Your summary, the 6 key issues were

1. Bidder's real identities not known.

Our bidders want to be annonymus because if they can see your Mark Dobson, Mick Heffernan, Soul sam etc. you are creating unneccessary interest and ultimatey competition. You can see their handles and most regular viewers have worked out who is who.. same as e-bay really.

2. Phantom handles being used by JM

There are no Phanthom handles, but we do bid for "Phone bidders" who are not at a computer.

3. JM claiming he now collects again, has a way of him justifying not selling to the highest bidder (I mean, if you run an auction, how can you be a bidder in it????!!!! - CRAZY!!)

I certainly do collect and have been doing for a number of years. The ONLY two records I've ever bought from the auction were The Royal Robins & The "Render My Service" acetate which both sold far too cheaply. Both were obviously not my 45s.

4. Phone bidding

If it's good enough for Sotherby's and Christie's it's good enogh for us

5. Visibility of proxy bids

You're not going to like this! We DO NOT know and have never ever known and can't possibly know anyone's proxy bid. Because we had the foresight, that someone would accuse us of this at some time or other. PROXY BIDS are only known to the bidder who placed them, just like E-bay the seller does NOT know the Proxy Bid. Interactive Solutions our website and program writers would love to meet you to prove this.

6. Extended auction time

We went to great lengths and expense to try and duplicate an auction room, I think we've done just that. If nobody bids against you win the item @ 18.00 on a wednesday, if they do you get a chance to bid back. If after 3 minutes noone has bid against you thev item is yours. Now how can that be a problem? I think the problem is you don't fully understand that being totally honest in everything we do is much more profitable that bumping a few quid here and there.

I do hope that customers of ours who have won items on the auction will come on and say what there Proxy Bid was and what they actually won it for..

For record we have on file every single bid, with names e-mail addresses, exact time of bid. If anyone anywhere needs a view of these they will be provided in court.

Is that transparent enough for you?

Edited December 29, 2005 by john manship

[Geordiejohnson]

Im not in the game of "did he - didnt he", but im sure there are guidlenines/point of law for how auctions must be conducted and can be opened up for scrutiny in case of wrong doing...if there are any

I vaugely remember something about Christies who had some insider bids going on a few years back and someone ended up in jail.

Well wouldnt this apply to any other auction....internet or not,

for me though i have never bid on an auction other than ebay...though i do watch JMs and if he was on the diddle..... as some are claiming...... why did things like "the Appreciations - its better to cry, and a few others very recently, go through for far less than they've been trading for over the last few years ???? just an observation

Geeooooordie

[Guest]

Thanks for the clearing that up John, it was something that had stuck in my mind mainly because I could not believe what the record sold for, and at the time did appear to be a bit strange.

As your up to answering questions do you find that when a record does go for a good price on auction you get a surge of people wanting you to sell their copy for them?

Martyn

YES as recently happened with The Magnetics - on Bonnie I actually was offered two from two different and very well respected collector / dj's

Im not in the game of "did he - didnt he", but im sure there are guidlenines/point of law for how auctions must be conducted and can be opened up for scrutiny in case of wrong doing...if there are any

I vaugely remember something about Christies who had some insider bids going on a few years back and someone ended up in jail.

Well wouldnt this apply to any other auction....internet or not,

for me though i have never bid on an auction other than ebay...though i do watch JMs and if he was on the diddle..... as some are claiming...... why did things like "the Appreciations - its better to cry, and a few others very recently, go through for far less than they've been trading for over the last few years ???? just an observation

Geeooooordie

Your right we are not in a position to be anything but 100% honest..john

[Guest]

John

I would appreciate that thank you, the record was 21st Century - Shadow Of A Memory auction date 16/1/05

Martyn

Took awhile to find it, but here's the bid history for The 21st. Century you won, we can do this for EVERY record ever sold on our auction. I do hope this is the LAST time anyone questions it. And as you'll the bidders are known guys...I hope Adam & Peter etc forgive me for letting all see this.. only in the interests of our companies good name...can you confirm all the times of your bids are correct..I'd appreciate it. John

Bid History for 21st. Century-Shadow Of A Memory c/w Coming Right Back-Dot demo

Pos.

Bid

Time Of Bid

Bidder

Email

Details

1

£ 300

12/01/2005 18:04:09

Martyn Pitt

martynpitt@blueyonder.co.uk

View

2

£ 299

12/01/2005 18:04:09

Peter Richer

pjricher@waitrose.com

View

3

£ 286

12/01/2005 18:01:23

Martyn Pitt

martynpitt@blueyonder.co.uk

View

4

£ 279

12/01/2005 18:01:23

Adam Kowalski

arkowalski@hotmail.com

View

5

£ 272

12/01/2005 18:01:07

Martyn Pitt

martynpitt@blueyonder.co.uk

View

6

£ 265

12/01/2005 18:01:07

Adam Kowalski

arkowalski@hotmail.com

View

7

£ 258

12/01/2005 17:58:22

Martyn Pitt

martynpitt@blueyonder.co.uk

View

8

£ 251

12/01/2005 17:57:57

Adam Kowalski

arkowalski@hotmail.com

View

9

£ 217

12/01/2005 17:57:18

Martyn Pitt

martynpitt@blueyonder.co.uk

View

10

£ 207

12/01/2005 17:57:00

Peter Richer

pjricher@waitrose.com

View

11

£ 189

12/01/2005 17:56:10

Martyn Pitt

martynpitt@blueyonder.co.uk

View

12

£ 182

12/01/2005 17:56:10

Peter Richer

pjricher@waitrose.com

View

13

£ 157

12/01/2005 14:42:07

Martyn Pitt

martynpitt@blueyonder.co.uk

View

14

£ 150

12/01/2005 14:42:06

Lisa

tazzey91@hotmail.com

View

15

£ 128

09/01/2005 16:38:13

Martyn Pitt

martynpitt@blueyonder.co.uk

View

16

£ 108

09/01/2005 12:23:50

Stuart Mobbs

Captain.leakage@virgin.net

View

Cancelled Bids

Pos.

Bid

Time Of Bid

Bidder

Email

Details

[Geordiejohnson]

For record we have on file every single bid, with names e-mail addresses, exact time of bid. If anyone anywhere needs a view of these they will be provided in court.

Is that transparent enough for you?

I was typing my post when you posted this john.........I think the threads will now go deathly silent, if they dont, peas and brains come to mind.

If anyone is watching your auctions thoroughly they will see you have tracks that go for way less and some for more......thats life depends if you want a tune bad enough.

Ian Johnson

[Guest]

Rambler,

Well said, spot on!

Having seen (and bid on ) Manships auctions I cannot understand for the life of me why he does not post a list of those bidding. Why the big secret even if they are just "handles"? let me see who I'm bidding against, after a while the handles become known anyway, so what!

And why is the next minimum bid always quoted for you?

e.g. Current Bid: £200: Bid Increment £ 15:

Who decided on the £15??????

Personally speaking I have never liked auctions IMO they rarely reflect what a record is worth only what someone is willing to pay for it!

e.g. Ruby Andrews - Just Loving You. Reality £125, Auction £325(approx)

Can't blame the sellers for trying to get maxium profit on their product, just never seen the morals in a third party jacking up the price for us poor unwashed

If you log in you can see everyone who's bid time and "handles".. but you need to log in first.

[Guest]

I was typing my post when you posted this john.........I think the threads will now go deathly silent, if they dont, peas and brains come to mind.

If anyone is watching your auctions thoroughly they will see you have tracks that go for way less and some for more......thats life depends if you want a tune bad enough.

Ian Johnson

Ian, You're right, too be honest some prices reached are a little embarrassing, but other are far too cheap.. Chandlers, Steve Mancha - Wheelsville, Royal Robins to name but three were about 1/2 price. But please realize this auction is global and last year we had many USA collectors biddinbg who are not Northern Soul collectors they just liked the record, I remember we did particaully well for Ally Mayer on an acetate that went straight back to the USA.. It's becoming a much wider base now, collecting rare soul is really hot in other areas other than us guys..john Edited December 29, 2005 by john manship

[Martyn Pitt]

Took awhile to find it, but here's the bid history for The 21st. Century you won, we can do this for EVERY record ever sold on our auction. I do hope this is the LAST time anyone questions it. And as you'll the bidders are known guys...I hope Adam & Peter etc forgive me for letting all see this.. only in the interests of our companies good name...can you confirm all the times of your bids are correct..I'd appreciate it. John

John, mine are correct.

Would you like me to delete my original post?

Martyn

[Guest]

John, mine are correct.

Would you like me to delete my original post?

Martyn

Martyn, Thanks for your unbiased view of it all, to be honest when a customer turn me onto the postings today, I was not pleased and tried to get your phone number (you're X Directory). Anyhow it's much more friendly like this and it's all OK with me now. I think Mr. Rambler should spend time on the positive things about our scene. Whatever motive he had, I hope he spends his time more productively in the future.. Nice talking to you. John

[Martyn Pitt]

Martyn, Thanks for your unbiased view of it all, to be honest when a customer turn me onto the postings today, I was not pleased and tried to get your phone number (you're X Directory). Anyhow it's much more friendly like this and it's all OK with me now. I think Mr. Rambler should spend time on the positive things about our scene. Whatever motive he had, I hope he spends his time more productively in the future.. Nice talking to you. John

John,

I appreciate your comments, openness and honesty on this matter.

One thing this has done is without question proved the rumours totally wrong.

Martyn

[Ted Massey]

Thanks Ted but you're old school aren't you.

Hi Johm

just so that others dont think it is to much of a lovin between to old schoolers, when i started to collect again in 1983(thank god i did oh those prices) the first thing other collectors told me ,was make sure you collect the records when you buy from Manship as his gradings are crap.

Ted

[Guest]

Rob, with respect, unless you had total transparency of the process, there is no way you can realistically attest to the integrity around JM's auctions. It's natural that if JM achieved a high price for one of your discs, that you would feel a sense of satisfaction, and your statement above is a kind thing to do.

JM probably realizes that people's opinions are wavering, and reputation can spread fast, which is possibly why he constantly courts people and customers to make testimonies on forums such as these. In my opinion this is manipulation and the exploitation of kind people in the main and this is something that needs to be checked, hence this following post. I am also curious as to how and on what basis this topic has found its way onto the latest news, key feature board? No pressure or threats I hope.

Anyhow, before I start, I will make clear that nothing in this post is intended as an allegation or slant, but is intended to illustrate the current debate and views.

Rob, you say that he sent you the bid list. However, no one can be certain as to who has actually bid. The bid list (which you are right, he does have) contains handle names only. It is also a fact that strange behavior surrounds certain handle names that have been behind the win and escalated bidding of many auction records. Such records have often been auctioned again within weeks or a few short months. Thus leading to the suspicion that JM uses these phantom handles to create a bidding history and drive up records to a maximum based on who has bid, and the proxy maximums in place. JM does, without any question (regardless of his claims that he had the programmers write it out), have the ability to view every bidder's maximum bid. With this, it is entirely possible for JM to maximize prices. JM will say what has he to gain by 'bidding-up' auctions as he only receives 10%, hardly a king's ransom. In the bigger picture, JM does in fact have a lot to gain. His whole business model is geared around an ever escalating price index. He needs this to warrant his Price Guide editions, and to increase the value of his asset, against which, he can legitimately borrow and fund his investments in publications, stock acquisition (west coast haul) etc. Beyond the revenue yield, JM's Price Guide is of huge strategic importance. It pulls a mass of inventory to him, via consignment from various US sources and also private sellers into auctions. It is a vehicle by which he manages the rare soul market globally. You see Rob, people thought JM was mad publishing a Price Guide, and giving away the 'secrets' to American suppliers, it could only make things harder for him to attain stock and make money. This is true... UNLESS the game changes to a high inflationary price index, then, with a huge stock behind him and with the authority the guide has given him, means margins are greater than ever. Volume turnover can be lower, but margin contribution is through the roof, and the bottom line has never been better.

Rob, it's in the business model that lie's the motive that many are suspicious of. He may very well achieve great prices from time to time, but in reality, he only needs 1 real bidder to drive a price up. Why do you think he has crazy rules about last minute extensions, some would argue its to view the bidders top proxy and push up to the maximum, or at least to a price that fits his Guide. In this way it would be entirely understandable how he achieves the results he does. It isn't because punters trust him more than any other open auction (e-bay etc), it is quite simply ...manipulation.

In summary, the 6 key issues are;

1. Bidder's real identities not known.

2. Phantom handles being used by JM

3. JM claiming he now collects again, has a way of him justifying not selling to the highest bidder (I mean, if you run an auction, how can you be a bidder in it????!!!! - CRAZY!!)

4. Phone bidding

5. Visibility of proxy bids

6. Extended auction time

These 6 things above, hardly promote transparency and as such, questions integrity. Rob, this is why the debate has evolved, and will continue until JM does what is in his power to do, and addresses the issues above. Until then, speculation will continue, regardless of any testimonial.

As previously stated, this post is intended as a way of illustrating the current debate and skepticism that exists.

I have my own opinions which reflect the logic and circumstances outlined above, but everyone to their own.

This is my last post, as I've just taken the time to read your short story again. I've come to the conclusion that most of the points you've covered, is how you'd actually run an auction yourself. Let's hope you never do so, or maybe you probably already do..now that's worrying..

[Guest]

Hi Johm

just so that others dont think it is to much of a lovin between to old schoolers, when i started to collect again in 1983(thank god i did oh those prices) the first thing other collectors told me ,was make sure you collect the records when you buy from Manship as his gradings are crap.

Ted

Gradings: I actually got some close-up glasses a couple of years back, so my sight has improved before that me and my laborador graded brail fashion.. John

[Ted Massey]

Posted the last reply before i had read the others supose i'm the bad guy now but i was talking about 20 years ago and things and people do change

[Simsy]

I have been surprised and impressed by SS members dogged pursuit of chancers selling records. Fraudsters and chancers alike have been exposed, named and shamed.

Some have joined this site in an attempt to defend their honour (Mr 'Mega Rare' Fosland for one) and this has perhaps done them some good. Others have stayed silent and secretive - what ever happened to Mr 'one hundred million dollars Gene Toones'?

So members have a security blanket from ebay and other chancers out to rip us off. Thus far this thread proves JM is guilty off nothing more then selling records for the best price he can get. Something that was never a secret in the first place.

Ian Sims.

[Iancsloft]

Posted the last reply before i had read the others supose i'm the bad guy now but i was talking about 20 years ago and things and people do change

========================================================================

Talking of gradings Ted .......Remember that DC Blossoms--Hey Boy Shrine I traded to you

many years ago for those rare 45,s you gave me !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Regarding John Manship , I have known John for many years and while I never buy off his

Auctions the reason being John has built up over the years the worlds most successful

rare soul company dealing in mostly what we call Northern Soul his data base of people

willing to pay top $ for rare records is huge due to the company having over the years

built up a first class reputation of honesty & integrity so the chances of me getting a bargain

on Johns Auctions are very remote with the amount of people willing to pay over the odds

to get that elusive 45.. When selling rare 45,s to John in the past he has always paid

my asking price give or take a few quid ,which I respect greatly !

Like the old saying a rare record is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it

me personally I like looking through boxes at soul nites ect ect trying to find that bargain

45 at a good price you know the 45 that John would Auction and get big bucks for

ALL THE BEST EVERYONE FOR 2006

LOVE, PEACE & HAPPINESS.....IAN CUNLIFFE

[SteveM]

========================================================================

One detailed query on this thread, and John answered it, provided the proof, and I would assume set Martins, and other peoples mind at rest.

With regard to handles, while I don't know what user name Butch, MickH or Sam use, I am well aware of the true identities of some of the bigger bidders, as must others be.

With regard to telehone/proxy bids, I have used this only once when I was in the car. I was already the highest bidder but decided that I really wanted the record, and telephoned a significantly increased bid in.

I won the auction at the bid price I had before I telephoned in. It didn't go up one penny.

I think that some people are a bit put out because they didn't get a Christmas card off you John.

[Guest]

John Flanny here what rambler has said about you is out of order. I HAVE USED YOUR AUCTION many times for buying and selling you are honest and very fair and easy to deal with and would back you up in a court of law anytime KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK happy new year Flanny

[Guest]

No sign of an apology to John from "Rambler" i see. No surprise there then.

Derek

[Soulsmith]

No sign of an apology to John from "Rambler" i see. No surprise there then.

Derek

Knowing you as I do Derek (I think we have met the once!) - I bet you've got a lead on him.

Col

[Guest]

Knowing you as I do Derek (I think we have met the once!) - I bet you've got a lead on him.

Col

Hi Col,

Yeah we met at the Volks Tavern.

As for "Rambler" ? Would love to know who it is, enquiries will be made.

Derek