The Sudden Abundance Of Re-Issues / Boots

[Denbo]

For some reason, there suddenly seems to be an abundance of re-issues / boots flooding the market.

Whilst I have my own opinions in regard to this practice, I can't help wondering who is most upset by all this, the recording artists, the collector, or the DJs who ply their trade using the 'original' copies?

Edited May 21, 2012 by denbo

[Phild]

Well I am a now and then DJ and I only play original vinyl.

I also run a reissue record label, but properly license everything I put out. So the rights owners etc won't be upset by my releases as they get paid.

If other DJ's are upset I don't know. But reissues never bother me personally as a DJ and collector.

I still want the original. But in some cases, definitely in the case of my label, this is the only way to legitimately own particular tracks.

Phil

[Guest allnightandy]

I don't so much mind reissues as this has in the long run kept the scene alive as IMO people would have lost interest if they could not own the tracks in some form of vinyl

What does piss me off as a collector , is reissues that are virtually identical to the originals , in some cases identification coming down to just a couple of squiggles in the dead wax

making it virtually impossible to trust what's on offer on Ebay , totally different labels and duel labels/ different flip sides , i don't really have a problem with although there are far too many of them

IE Gloria Jones , must be on a dozen different labels ,how can anybody feel it warrants keep pressing it ?

[Stevie]

It's not something I like particularily when records are produced as facsimiles of the original.

If they came out in bright yellow colours with 'Noddy Records' written in red then maybe I would alter my opinion, after all it would make no difference to those who just want to own a copy of something they can't afford would it?

Until that happens I'll form my own view.

[Stevie]

Sorry Andy - that's what happens when going off to make tea and toast halfway through typing a reply :-)

[Guest]

Personally I welcome the legal represses as for me it's more about having the track and being able to listen to it on vinyl as opposed to whether it's an OG copy or not. Not keen on boots though as artists/rights owners do not get paid for their work.

[Phild]

I agree with you Andy. I dislike lookalike reissues.

[pikeys dog]

I agree with you Andy. I dislike lookalike reissues.

They are a right Royal pain up the 'arris - I'm sick of looking for stuff on eBay and the current batch of 'Outtasite' reissues coming up page after page....

[Denbo]

They are a right Royal pain up the 'arris - I'm sick of looking for stuff on eBay and the current batch of 'Outtasite' reissues coming up page after page....

Very good point. That's the least obvious but the most frustrating side effect concerning re-issues / boots.

[Denbo]

Well I am a now and then DJ and I only play original vinyl.

I also run a reissue record label, but properly license everything I put out. So the rights owners etc won't be upset by my releases as they get paid.

If other DJ's are upset I don't know. But reissues never bother me personally as a DJ and collector.

I still want the original. But in some cases, definitely in the case of my label, this is the only way to legitimately own particular tracks.

Phil

Forgive my ignorance Phil but which re-issue record label would that be?

[Phild]

Forgive my ignorance Phil but which re-issue record label would that be?

Soul Intention Records - www.soul-intention.co.uk

Cheers

Phil

[Denbo]

Soul Intention Records - www.soul-intention.co.uk

Cheers

Phil

Interesting work and an interesting read. Thanks Phil.

[Steve G]

What does piss me off as a collector , is reissues that are virtually identical to the originals , in some cases identification coming down to just a couple of squiggles in the dead wax

Hmmm, but I'd wager third rate DJs love em Andy.

It means they can PRETEND they have the original and no one will know otherwise....I remember the hullabaloo (rightly) when Winstanley was outed playing pressings.....now with these lookalike 45s, no one will ever know.....so anyone who wants a go, can ply their trade without facing criticism from the OVOmen.

[Weingarden]

The problem I have with certain reissues as a DJ arises when there's a "warm-up" DJ on before me somewhere and he plays, say, Arthur Griswold on "Toledo" when I've got Arthur Griswold on Fortune with me in my box. The reissuers are doing ALL the warm-up DJ's work: not only providing cheap copies of killer records but CHOOSING them for him, preselecting the prime cuts....They don't reissue crap, after all! But then I think: Why shouldn't everybody have access to this great music, and I forgive everyone.

[Mal C]

Legal re press all the way, that said i love the look alike stuff from the seventies, Trade Martin, The Malibus Mikki Farrow etc..

that said I see Pat Brady has the latter at £75 quid at the mo....

Mal.C.

[Denbo]

The problem I have with certain reissues as a DJ arises when there's a "warm-up" DJ on before me somewhere and he plays, say, Arthur Griswold on "Toledo" when I've got Arthur Griswold on Fortune with me in my box. The reissuers are doing ALL the warm-up DJ's work: not only providing cheap copies of killer records but CHOOSING them for him, preselecting the prime cuts....They don't reissue crap, after all! But then I think: Why shouldn't everybody have access to this great music, and I forgive everyone.

But you make a valid point and I'd be a bit upset too if my intention was to play Arthur Griswold (which I also have a copy of on Fortune) a little later on, only to be pipped at the post by a re-issue. Oh well, I suppose it makes us work that bit harder to stay one step ahead of the game. Having said that, I'll bear your analogy in mind for November.

[Steve G]

The problem I have with certain reissues as a DJ arises when there's a "warm-up" DJ on before me somewhere and he plays, say, Arthur Griswold on "Toledo" when I've got Arthur Griswold on Fortune with me in my box. The reissuers are doing ALL the warm-up DJ's work: not only providing cheap copies of killer records but CHOOSING them for him, preselecting the prime cuts....They don't reissue crap, after all! But then I think: Why shouldn't everybody have access to this great music, and I forgive everyone.

Some DJs have been known to take non legit records off of the decks if some warm up flunky is playing a boot of something they (the other DJ) has on OV. One even uses them as frisbees to try and decapitate people dancing to the bootleg version

Edited May 21, 2012 by Steve G

[Guest lostboy23653]

In most cases these days,you can't get most original records without paying an arm and a leg for, in some cases a wretched copy of some obscure single that only got played at venues for a short period of time.Take Ginger for instance,he bought the original copy on Shrine of Mr.Bryant's brilliant offering,I, if it were me, would lock it up in a vault, afraid of getting a scratch on such a rare record,thank God, that when the same sound came out on a British replica Shrine label I bought a copy for £10, because not only did I get a copy of this great track but also of walk on into my life on the flip.I never bring it with me when I'm out playing on the charity circuit preferring to play it when the mood takes me,because of the amature slueths who feel obliged to come up and tell you ,it's not original,(although this so called boot of the original is in itself becoming collectable fetching between £40 and £50 a copy,)Surely,you play the sound not the price, if you can't afford or live on a limited income and wish to assist charity events,why be disbarred from playing a sound because it is out of your price range.I say well done to those who assist the majority of jobbing DJ's,maybe, I'm in my downward spiral to my spot awaiting me in the sky, but when they play ,"I'm Stepping out of the Picture,"at my funeral Idon't think I'll ask if it was on the original label or not or how much said record was worth.Life's too short to worry after all why is the rarest record label so rare,because it was an illegal operation printing, pressing and passing off other soul label's stuff as it's own,and being forced to go out of the picture as a result.Ask yourself why,and you will prob get back the answer,money and supply and demand.Why is there a supply,to cover the demand.Why money? because usually we human's are greedy,those with want more,those without crave what the other man has,simple economics!enough said.

[boba]

I can't think of a single lookalike legit reissue. Lookalikes are usually bootlegs designed to trick somebody. Who does lookalike reissues?

[boba]

I can't think of a single lookalike legit reissue. Lookalikes are usually bootlegs designed to trick somebody. Who does lookalike reissues?

the closest I can think of is the Out-a-site stuff, but although they replicate the label design, they are clearly marked

[Col Wolfe]

Well I am a now and then DJ and I only play original vinyl.

I also run a reissue record label, but properly license everything I put out. So the rights owners etc won't be upset by my releases as they get paid.

If other DJ's are upset I don't know. But reissues never bother me personally as a DJ and collector.

I still want the original. But in some cases, definitely in the case of my label, this is the only way to legitimately own particular tracks.

Phil

same here

[boba]

same here

what reissue label do you run?

[paultp]

I don't think this is "sudden" - it's something that has been happening for years. Ebay UK is so full of boots, re-issues etc that it isn't worth looking at anymore and hasn't been for ages.

The price of original records has risen so much, particularly for "trophy" records, leading to the situation where nobody would start collecting them as the cost is prohibitive to most. When I started I thought a fiver was expensive but soon found I would spend a ton on a really good record. Now, a ton wouldn't get you a really good record - it probably wouldn't get you a copy of Someday on Stardust FFS!

Music has become so easily attainable that few people can get their heads round why some people will pay thousands for something that is available for 9.99 - and in a similar format.

When the majority have that attitude it makes a market for bootleggers.

I have to say though, that I like the practice of releasing never before released tunes on vinyl, I've even bought a couple. It is the reissuing of well known tunes that I can't see the point of.

Edited May 22, 2012 by paultp

[Steve G]

In most cases these days,you can't get most original records without paying an arm and a leg for, in some cases a wretched copy of some obscure single that only got played at venues for a short period of time.Take Ginger for instance,he bought the original copy on Shrine of Mr.Bryant's brilliant offering,I, if it were me, would lock it up in a vault, afraid of getting a scratch on such a rare record,thank God, that when the same sound came out on a British replica Shrine label I bought a copy for £10, because not only did I get a copy of this great track but also of walk on into my life on the flip.I never bring it with me when I'm out playing on the charity circuit preferring to play it when the mood takes me,because of the amature slueths who feel obliged to come up and tell you ,it's not original,(although this so called boot of the original is in itself becoming collectable fetching between £40 and £50 a copy,)Surely,you play the sound not the price, if you can't afford or live on a limited income and wish to assist charity events,why be disbarred from playing a sound because it is out of your price range.I say well done to those who assist the majority of jobbing DJ's,maybe, I'm in my downward spiral to my spot awaiting me in the sky, but when they play ,"I'm Stepping out of the Picture,"at my funeral Idon't think I'll ask if it was on the original label or not or how much said record was worth.Life's too short to worry after all why is the rarest record label so rare,because it was an illegal operation printing, pressing and passing off other soul label's stuff as it's own,and being forced to go out of the picture as a result.Ask yourself why,and you will prob get back the answer,money and supply and demand.Why is there a supply,to cover the demand.Why money? because usually we human's are greedy,those with want more,those without crave what the other man has,simple economics!enough said.

Enough said??? Well not quite. Very brave of you to come on here and tell us about your ethos and that you play these bootleg things out. Even braver if you could tell us who you are. Rare records have always been expensive, strewth at Wigan I could hardly afford anything other than UK and cheapo 45s. I think what's different now is the obsession many so called DJs have with a more limited range of records - i.e. you got to have Eddie Parker, Salvadors, Tomangoes Mel Britt etc. in yer box to be a DJ.

Well Sir, you don't. There's plenty of great records out there to find, NOT reissued, that are just as good. Thing is when you play your JD Bryant, it's not down to an "ameteur slewth" as you put it to identify it as a reissue, everyone who cares can work it out as soon as the first bars start.

Regards and all.

[Guest Polyvelts]

The ratio of great soul records that only exist only as US originals to those that have been reissued either as boots or legitimately must be at least 500 : 1 , if it's been bootlegged then the odds are it's already been fairly played out, so move on and play something still fairly undiscovered if not heaven forbid as yet unknown

[Prophonics 2029]

For F*** Sake

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-NORTHERN-L-ALLEN-CANT-WE-TALK-OVER-2ND-PRESS-/160803544170?autorefresh=true

https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-NORTHERN-HIGH-KEYS-LIVING-LIE-/160803544173

[Guest allnightandy]

For F*** Sake

https://www.ebay.com/...utorefresh=true

https://www.ebay.com/...E-/160803544173

Bloody Awful !

[Denbo]

I don't think this is "sudden" - it's something that has been happening for years.

What I meant was that there is a sudden flurry / surge of re-issues / boots being released almost all at once.

[boba]

welcome to the lion's den. you violated the primary dogma of soul source.

[boba]

What I meant was that there is a sudden flurry / surge of re-issues / boots being released almost all at once.

I don't know about boots, but there are so many reissues because there are tons of tiny reissue labels in the US and UK trying to license material and build up a catalog

[Trev Thomas]

In most cases these days,you can't get most original records without paying an arm and a leg for, in some cases a wretched copy of some obscure single that only got played at venues for a short period of time.Take Ginger for instance,he bought the original copy on Shrine of Mr.Bryant's brilliant offering,I, if it were me, would lock it up in a vault, afraid of getting a scratch on such a rare record,thank God, that when the same sound came out on a British replica Shrine label I bought a copy for £10, because not only did I get a copy of this great track but also of walk on into my life on the flip.I never bring it with me when I'm out playing on the charity circuit preferring to play it when the mood takes me,because of the amature slueths who feel obliged to come up and tell you ,it's not original,(although this so called boot of the original is in itself becoming collectable fetching between £40 and £50 a copy,)Surely,you play the sound not the price, if you can't afford or live on a limited income and wish to assist charity events,why be disbarred from playing a sound because it is out of your price range.I say well done to those who assist the majority of jobbing DJ's,maybe, I'm in my downward spiral to my spot awaiting me in the sky, but when they play ,"I'm Stepping out of the Picture,"at my funeral Idon't think I'll ask if it was on the original label or not or how much said record was worth.Life's too short to worry after all why is the rarest record label so rare,because it was an illegal operation printing, pressing and passing off other soul label's stuff as it's own,and being forced to go out of the picture as a result.Ask yourself why,and you will prob get back the answer,money and supply and demand.Why is there a supply,to cover the demand.Why money? because usually we human's are greedy,those with want more,those without crave what the other man has,simple economics!enough said.

which record label are we talking about here ???

[Soul16]

For F*** Sake

https://www.ebay.com/...utorefresh=true

https://www.ebay.com/...E-/160803544173

Ah, yes, Kidderminster has been a major source of bootleg 45s since the 1970s - fair enough (?) in those days maybe.

The current crop of counterfeit records must be very cheap to press, because I would imagine that demand for bootleg 45s is quite limited in the 21st century - We have (legal) CDs to listen to and copy to our ipods for use in the car and on the move.

Yes, in the distant past, I've knowingly bought counterfeit records, but other than an 'out of my league' original, it was the only option. Why buy worthless illegal 45s today and line somebody else's pockets? - Take the wife and kids for a day out instead, they'll thank you for it.

We all know that feeling of excitement, waiting for that elusive piece of original vinyl to drop through the letterbox - It feels like money well-spent, a good investment, you get an emotional attachment to it, you're buying something 'real' that has a history. You don't get any of that from a bootleg.

In my humble opinion, at a wedding reception, birthday party or any family social event, legal CD's or mp3 files would be perfectly acceptable - How often do you see a wedding DJ with turntables or CD players these days? - they all appear to be using laptops.

At a 'proper' Northern event though, a DJ should only play original vinyl only, that is what 'the scene' has always been about, surely?

[Guest]

Ah, yes, Kidderminster has been a major source of bootleg 45s since the 1970s - fair enough (?) in those days maybe.

The current crop of counterfeit records must be very cheap to press, because I would imagine that demand for bootleg 45s is quite limited in the 21st century - We have (legal) CDs to listen to and copy to our ipods for use in the car and on the move.

Yes, in the distant past, I've knowingly bought counterfeit records, but other than an 'out of my league' original, it was the only option. Why buy worthless illegal 45s today and line somebody else's pockets? - Take the wife and kids for a day out instead, they'll thank you for it.

We all know that feeling of excitement, waiting for that elusive piece of original vinyl to drop through the letterbox - It feels like money well-spent, a good investment, you get an emotional attachment to it, you're buying something 'real' that has a history. You don't get any of that from a bootleg.

In my humble opinion, at a wedding reception, birthday party or any family social event, legal CD's or mp3 files would be perfectly acceptable - How often do you see a wedding DJ with turntables or CD players these days? - they all appear to be using laptops.

At a 'proper' Northern event though, a DJ should only play original vinyl only, that is what 'the scene' has always been about, surely?

Ah, yes, Kidderminster has been a major source of bootleg 45s since the 1970s - fair enough (?) in those days maybe.

The current crop of counterfeit records must be very cheap to press, because I would imagine that demand for bootleg 45s is quite limited in the 21st century - We have (legal) CDs to listen to and copy to our ipods for use in the car and on the move.

Yes, in the distant past, I've knowingly bought counterfeit records, but other than an 'out of my league' original, it was the only option. Why buy worthless illegal 45s today and line somebody else's pockets? - Take the wife and kids for a day out instead, they'll thank you for it.

We all know that feeling of excitement, waiting for that elusive piece of original vinyl to drop through the letterbox - It feels like money well-spent, a good investment, you get an emotional attachment to it, you're buying something 'real' that has a history. You don't get any of that from a bootleg.

In my humble opinion, at a wedding reception, birthday party or any family social event, legal CD's or mp3 files would be perfectly acceptable - How often do you see a wedding DJ with turntables or CD players these days? - they all appear to be using laptops.

At a 'proper' Northern event though, a DJ should only play original vinyl only, that is what 'the scene' has always been about, surely?

I said i wouldn't get involved in stuff like this again but i cannot keep letting people use quotes like this and run the risk of people believing the rubbish some would like us to believe.

When, oh when will people wake up to the fact that it is not what the scene has always been about. Please, get your facts right before trying to brainwash others into this nonsense

[Pete S]

why is the rarest record label so rare,because it was an illegal operation printing, pressing and passing off other soul label's stuff as it's own,and being forced to go out of the picture as a result.

What a shame that Eddie Singleton isn't here to defend himself against slander like that.

[Phild]

which record label are we talking about here ???

Think he means Shrine Trev.

He appears to have got his wires crossed with the story about Raynoma pressing up Mary Wells 45's, and Berry subsequenty using this to strongarm her 50% share in Motown out of her.

[jocko]

I said i wouldn't get involved in stuff like this again but i cannot keep letting people use quotes like this and run the risk of people believing the rubbish some would like us to believe.

When, oh when will people wake up to the fact that it is not what the scene has always been about. Please, get your facts right before trying to brainwash others into this nonsense

So why getting involved then, other than to rubbish people on here, again.

I actually agree with you to a certain extent but suspect we have very differing logic behind our rationale, surely if you are getting involved you need to explain to a new poster why he is wrong.

Although personally I think someone making the "charity circuit" type plea post as his first should be made to stand in middle of room in a chair and give his real name, his number and 3 forms of id to prove its not a wind up.,

Unless someone is willing to give real thought to this and add something new , lets not go there again. The funny shoe man says it all really above surely and sums it up perfectly, is there anything else to add?

[jocko]

which record label are we talking about here ???

I suspect it is Shrine

What a shame that Eddie Singleton isn't here to defend himself against slander like that.

That was my first thought, closely followed by it would be nice of poster to articulate his logic behind his assumption!

[Soul16]

I said i wouldn't get involved in stuff like this again but i cannot keep letting people use quotes like this and run the risk of people believing the rubbish some would like us to believe.

When, oh when will people wake up to the fact that it is not what the scene has always been about. Please, get your facts right before trying to brainwash others into this nonsense

Well, maybe that is what the scene has always been about 'for me' - attending venues all over the country, in order to hear a specific DJ play a specific set of rare records that I was unlikely to hear anywhere else. I've always felt that some DJs (rightly or wrongly) achieve a God-like status due to the 45's that they play. My statement was not an attempt to 'brainwash' others - it was an opinion, nothing more sinister than that.

[Guest]

So why getting involved then, other than to rubbish people on here, again.

I actually agree with you to a certain extent but suspect we have very differing logic behind our rationale, surely if you are getting involved you need to explain to a new poster why he is wrong.

Although personally I think someone making the "charity circuit" type plea post as his first should be made to stand in middle of room in a chair and give his real name, his number and 3 forms of id to prove its not a wind up.,

Unless someone is willing to give real thought to this and add something new , lets not go there again. The funny shoe man says it all really above surely and sums it up perfectly, is there anything else to add?

So why getting involved then, other than to rubbish people on here, again.

I actually agree with you to a certain extent but suspect we have very differing logic behind our rationale, surely if you are getting involved you need to explain to a new poster why he is wrong.

Although personally I think someone making the "charity circuit" type plea post as his first should be made to stand in middle of room in a chair and give his real name, his number and 3 forms of id to prove its not a wind up.,

Unless someone is willing to give real thought to this and add something new , lets not go there again. The funny shoe man says it all really above surely and sums it up perfectly, is there anything else to add?

its not rubbishing 'people'....it is rubbishing a statement that you know is rubbish. But you only post behind me to have a pop like you always do .... you my friend are the person who rubbishes people. We all know the scene was not built on orig only .. far from it .... "and if you dont know that it is not worth explaining" .... isnt that the bog standard reply from the 'in crowd'?

[Steve L]

Please, please , please......no, not again

[Trev Thomas]

Think he means Shrine Trev.

He appears to have got his wires crossed with the story about Raynoma pressing up Mary Wells 45's, and Berry subsequenty using this to strongarm her 50% share in Motown out of her.

either that or he knows something we dont, looks like rix'y will have to rewrite his epic shrine story, anyway mate, good luck at wembley and look forward to seeing you saturday

Edited May 22, 2012 by trev thomas

[Roger Williams]

Wow, do people seriously still have this type of discussion? I think I'm going to look in our shed for that piece of chewing gum I spat out 15 years ago and see if it still tastes any good.

[Trev Thomas]

its not rubbishing 'people'....it is rubbishing a statement that you know is rubbish. But you only post behind me to have a pop like you always do .... you my friend are the person who rubbishes people. We all know the scene was not built on orig only .. far from it .... "and if you dont know that it is not worth explaining" .... isnt that the bog standard reply from the 'in crowd'?

sorry mate i beg to differ, records were played off originals first, then they were booted / reissued to satisfy demand

[Peter99]

[jocko]

its not rubbishing 'people'....it is rubbishing a statement that you know is rubbish. But you only post behind me to have a pop like you always do .... you my friend are the person who rubbishes people. We all know the scene was not built on orig only .. far from it .... "and if you dont know that it is not worth explaining" .... isnt that the bog standard reply from the 'in crowd'?

I post behind a number of people because I disagree with certain things, I like to think I also articulate why I disagree, (you should try it sometime) as I did above. Occasionaly I rubbish some theories and opinions that I disagree strongly with and are not based around fact, however rarely the people, not that hard to check and prove me wrong if you really want to .....

Your misguided ego on my following you around rather than just being tired with the same old same old is sweet, but boring. Not that hard to evidence on here just how wrong you are is it.

If its not worth explaining, its not worth debating, The chap has responded very eloquently and succintly, and is a rather spiffing answer, one that many of us would hang our hat on and should arguably be the last word on this and maybe should be hung up as good guide to the answer.

Surely you should do the same if you are going to pull up a newish poster. Its nice to be nice.

And as for Denbo's question, surely its all about supply and demand, i.e. its cheap to source and lots of people see no reason not to spend £10 on something dodgy rather than buy the same on CD, SWONS and all that, Never really go on E-Bay these days so suspect I am blind to the majority of this these days, the demand is obviously there and its all for Charidee so whats not to like.......

[Phild]

either that or he knows something we dont, looks like rix'y will have to rewrite his epic shrine story, anyway mate, good luck at wembley and look forward to seeing you saturday

Cheers

I've had my spot moved t 11:15 as my train back from Wembley only gets into Leeds at 21:50.

Looking forward to a perfect end to a perfect day.

[Pete S]

sorry mate i beg to differ, records were played off originals first, then they were booted / reissued to satisfy demand

True, but for most of us, our introduction to the music came via the youth club / local disco, and they played off any old reissue there usually. I remember loving things like The Fidels, The Furys, Brooks & Jerry - I had no idea that they were being played off British copies (not did I care, I was 15 years old)

[Denbo]

Calm down, calm down. :lol:

[jocko]

Calm down, calm down. :lol:

And what was that you were saying about stereotypes Denis!

A serious part to this topic is about the fact these are all complete rip offs, which in Pete's more innocent world we didn't probably really get or have the information at our hand, but surely the more interesting slant to this question is the impact they have on legit reissues and CD's, which also werent around in times Pete talks about, and therefore why people buy these so knowingly in current times?.

Is it just to dj with, or is because people only want to buy vinyl, do people buying the big ticket items also buy all the Kent etc CD's and the legal reissues?

It would also be interesting to hear people like Ady and Tony's perspective on how/if damaging it is to their world.

This sort of discussion for me has some legs, not the should they be played etc.

[Denbo]

And what was that you were saying about stereotypes Denis!

Ah, yes, but I can get away with it 'cos I am a Scouser, and it wasn't derogatory.

Besides, I felt the thread needed lightening up a little.