7 Dwarfs - Stop Girl - Which Is The Bootleg?

[Pete S]

Would really like an answer to this without people just quoting the JM book if possible, someone must know.

Below are two copies of this record that I have, the first one is 100% bootleg with it's much brighter yellow label, flat surface on the label. The second one, I think is an original, the label colour is right, it has a dip before the centre. The problem with the second one is that JM says it should have an F/W stamp on it. This one doesn't. Surely this wasn't popular enough to warrant two separate bootlegs in different styles?

[Dunc]

Hello Pete

Take a look at both your copies and the e on Dame Frances are smudged exactly the same on both. Pat Brady has one on his site at the moment and you will see what I mean. Also he points out that the vinyl is thin and flexible.

Hope this helps

[Pete S]

Hello Pete

Take a look at both your copies and the e on Dame Frances are smudged exactly the same on both. Pat Brady has one on his site at the moment and you will see what I mean. Also he points out that the vinyl is thin and flexible.

Hope this helps

It does, thanks.

Weird thing is though, I had this at the time it was being played and never remembered the vinyl being particular thin.

[Dave Fleming]

Would really like an answer to this without people just quoting the JM book if possible, someone must know.

Below are two copies of this record that I have, the first one is 100% bootleg with it's much brighter yellow label, flat surface on the label. The second one, I think is an original, the label colour is right, it has a dip before the centre. The problem with the second one is that JM says it should have an F/W stamp on it. This one doesn't. Surely this wasn't popular enough to warrant two separate bootlegs in different styles?

So are both of these scans boots?

Dave f...

[Pete S]

So are both of these scans boots?

Dave f...

That appears to be the case.

I remain totally unconvinced though, I've sold stacks of these boots but don't remember having the darker yellow one as a boot

[Pete S]

I'm starting to think there may be two original presses of this. The one on Pat Brady's site has the label offcentre, there's one on popsike also with the label offcentre, but there's alsosome like mine above which don't have the offcentre labels and appear to be sturdier - I know, not easy to be able to say that from a scan. I"m thinking along the lines of Lost Soul - Secret Of Mine, there are two strikingly different presses of that.

[Dave Fleming]

Just dug this out,Had this one since the mid 70s,this has a F/W & 1168A scracthed in the runout but not the machine stamped,

Dave f..

[Pete S]

Just dug this out,Had this one since the mid 70s,this has a F/W & 1168A scracthed in the runout but not the machine stamped,

Dave f..

And, the label is slightly off, like the others mentioned above. I'm sure I bought mine off one of the Wigan dj's or off someone who got it off one of them, and I just don't remember it being on thin vinyl that's all.

[Dave Fleming]

Pete this one has thin flexi vinyl,also the label looks

like the paper is thin as well.

Dave f..

[Dunc]

going off what you have said about the F/W stamp. I would say that an original would be stamped with the usual Frankford Wayne stamp.

Does anyone have a copy fully stamped?

[Guest MrC]

The one I had had a dip before the centre, was the same darker yellow, and only had scratched, not stamped, numbers in the run out, and that was before those 70s pressings.

In fact, it might have come from Pat Brady, or Hovis I think.

Edited April 30, 2012 by MrC

[Dave Fleming]

I`ve never seen or known of a F/W machine stamp on these,only the F/W scratched in,

anyone know a current selling price on the Orig ?.

Dave f..

[Pete S]

The one I had had a dip before the centre, was the same darker yellow, and only had scratched, not stamped, numbers in the run out, and that was before those 70s pressings.

In fact, it might have come from Pat Brady, or Hovis I think.

Thats probably the copy I'm talking about then Paul, I thought it was me who had it LOL

[Guest MrC]

Thats probably the copy I'm talking about then Paul, I thought it was me who had it LOL

Could be then, because I don't remember you ever having one! - But then again, my memories not exactly 100% either is it!

Edited April 30, 2012 by MrC

[Pete S]

Could be then, because I don't remember you ever having one! - But then again, my memories not exactly 100% either is it!

You remember the things I don't want to remember!

Maybe you sold it to me?

[Guest MrC]

You remember the things I don't want to remember!

Maybe you sold it to me?

Quite possibly

[Kev John]

I saw another copy of this on thin flexi vinyl label was really well off centre last year 

Jeff Swollow box all i can remember is that the the run out markings where in a different place than on my copy 

Sid Jones was sitting with Jeff & he said he got 5/6 copies  of someone in the US not sure if he said the owner of the Label 

The upshot of what he said was that he said ALL the originals of this record the LABEL was off centre 

The vinyl was the exact same thickness of mine 

 

 

[Guest]

Mine was a definite original and the label was on centre!

If the F/W is not at 11o'clock from the number in the run out groove, someone probably scratched in the F/W to make it look like an original.

The original has no mark through the e in Dame!

 

 

[Kev John]

4 minutes ago, solidsoul said:

Mine was a definite original and the label was on centre!

If the F/W is not at 11o'clock from the number in the run out groove, someone probably scratched in the F/W to make it look like an original.

The original has no mark through the e in Dame!

 

 

Mine is deffo orig too

as i was saying that the VINYL was exact as the original !

 

[Dazz]

I've got a definate original, slightly off-centre label on 'Stop' side, other side is on centre,   thin almost grainy looking label   thin shiny looking vinyl   scratched in numbers and F/W and what looks like a & in a circle stamped in both sides although more pronounced on the 'One by one' side but you do really have to get it in the right light to see it.

 

[Winsford Soul]

1 hour ago, Kev John said:

I saw another copy of this on thin flexi vinyl label was really well off centre last year 

Jeff Swollow box all i can remember is that the the run out markings where in a different place than on my copy 

Sid Jones was sitting with Jeff & he said he got 5/6 copies  of someone in the US not sure if he said the owner of the Label 

The upshot of what he said was that he said ALL the originals of this record the LABEL was off centre 

The vinyl was the exact same thickness of mine 

 

 

I Bought one of those off Sid. Unfortunately I haven't got it anymore. But definitely a original.

Steve

[Pk 22dj]

On ‎30‎/‎04‎/‎2012 at 12:23, Pete S said:

 

 

Thats probably  before it was pressed the copy I'm talking about then Paul, I thought it was me who had it LOL

got this as you say with the dip and looks like a stamp, very light though above the L very hard to see but it's there. Had mine from the states before it was pressed. Top tune and harder than most think. Cheers Pk £100 back in the late 80's no idea what it's worth now. the worlds gone crazy lol . PK

[Kev John]

15 minutes ago, pk 22dj said:

got this as you say with the dip and looks like a stamp, very light though above the L very hard to see but it's there. Had mine from the states before it was pressed. Top tune and harder than most think. Cheers Pk £100 back in the late 80's no idea what it's worth now. the worlds gone crazy lol . PK

PK

Just checked mine on the One By One side F/W etched in the run out above the L, also reads upside down , there are NO matrix stamps in the run out 

The vinyl is thin & very flexable 

atb Kev 

 

[Mixedangased]

I've just looked at mine no f/w scratched just the number at about 7 o'clock,

has dimple before the centre,the e is smudged and thin flex you vinyl,gonna put it on the cleaner and have another good look.heres a pic.

[Wiggyflat]

Got 2 copies of this in front of me one original and one boot....edge dip on original from edge of label into run out.Ideal a lighter shade of black on boot and can anyone say on their boot of the  One By One side there are 

ink dots near label edge at 5 oclock.

7 Dwarfs-Stop Girl Ideal Original Dame Francis Font Not blurred.pdf 7 Dwarfs-Stop Girl Ideal Counterfeit E in Dame Frances print blurred.pdf 7 Dwarfs-Stop Girl Ideal B Side One By One collection of printed dots on Counterfeit.pdf

Edited February 1, 2022 by Wiggyflat
updating pics

[Pk 22dj]

Looking at mine I always thought there was a stamp above the L

 

then again a smudge on the e

 

but I have seen the same copy being sold for £350

 

[Kev John]

2 pictures of my original  which i moved on a few years back

please compare with the the boots

 

Edited February 3, 2022 by Kev John

[sukokia]

Hello. I am a researcher. I am very interested in this album and recording. Can someone tell me what year this recording is from? I've seen on Discogs.com which is from 1966. Is it an official or pirated recording? Greetings.

[Sebastian]

16 hours ago, sukokia said:

Can someone tell me what year this recording is from? I've seen on Discogs.com which is from 1966. 

 

That's wrong. It's from January 1968.

[Kenb]

1 hour ago, Sebastian said:

 

That's wrong.  It's from January 1968.

I'm not convinced about 1968.

If you take it that Rick Reardon was in The Ambassodors and the Seven Dwarfs (New Severn Dwarfs), then it's unlikely he was in both bands at the same time. Rick was with the Ambassodors when they released Pork Chops in 1965 AND it was noted then that The Ambassodors were successors to the New Seven Dwarfs. I get the fact that only one possible Ambassodor i.e. Rick was in the previous New Severn Dwarfs, but would he have been re-incarnated in 1968 under the 7 Dwarfs?

[sukokia]

It is important to know what year this recording is from. That song "Stop Girl" is just like "I Can`t Get No (Satisfaction)" by The Rolling Stones. If the Stop Girl song was released before The Rolling Stones' song, then "I Can't Get No (Satisfaction)" is plagiarism.

[Kenb]

1 hour ago, sukokia said:

It is important to know what year this recording is from. That song "Stop Girl" is just like "I Can`t Get No (Satisfaction)" by The Rolling Stones. If the Stop Girl song was released before The Rolling Stones' song, then "I Can't Get No (Satisfaction)" is plagiarism.

I'm guessing you've seen the 45cat entry -https://www.45cat.com/record/1168

[Soul-slider]

7 hours ago, sukokia said:

It is important to know what year this recording is from. That song "Stop Girl" is just like "I Can`t Get No (Satisfaction)" by The Rolling Stones. If the Stop Girl song was released before The Rolling Stones' song, then "I Can't Get No (Satisfaction)" is plagiarism.

Hello sukokia, welcome.

I know a tune that the Stones may have plagiarized for 'Satisfaction', it's an R&B number by Bobby Day 'I Don't Need No Information' on 'Byrdland' from 1965. A bit about it and sound here:

https://www.45cat.com/record/nc301302us 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Soul-slider

[Mike]

45 minutes ago, Soul-slider said:

Hello sukokia, welcome.

I know a tune that the Stones may have plagiarized for 'Satisfaction', it's an R&B number by Bobby Day 'I Don't Need No Information' on 'Byrdland' from 1965. A bit about it and sound here:

https://www.45cat.com/record/nc301302us 

says on there that the release date of that was Sep 1965, that 100% ?

if so, maybe it's other way round as

https://swizzbeatzonline.com/i-cant-get-no-satisfaction-is-the-calling-card-of-the-rolling-stones/

says

The first version of The Rolling Stones’ song “(I Can’t Get No) Satisfaction”, with its harmonica and folk sound, was recorded at Chess studios in Chicago on May 10th, 1965

 

9 minutes ago, Source said:

says on there that the release date of that was Sep 1965, that 100% ?

if so, maybe it's other way round as

https://swizzbeatzonline.com/i-cant-get-no-satisfaction-is-the-calling-card-of-the-rolling-stones/

says

The first version of The Rolling Stones’ song “(I Can’t Get No) Satisfaction”, with its harmonica and folk sound, was recorded at Chess studios in Chicago on May 10th, 1965

seems may be  so going by the below via google and

https://ontherecordshow.blogspot.com/2012/03/bobby-day-i-dont-need-no-information.html

For his first release, Bobby decided to get into the West Coast soul-dance market with a tune called "Keep The Ball Rolling" (not the same song that Jay and The Techniques would have a hit with in 1967). For the flip, Bobby decided, hey, since the Brits were making a fortune recycling American R&B, why not turn the tables? The recording session took place in the summer of '65, and the record that was ALL OVER the airwaves at that point? "Satisfaction" by The Rolling Stones. So Bobby wrote a complete soul knockoff......not that anyone was going to hear it anyway, being a B-side and all that!

[Soul-slider]

13 hours ago, Source said:

says on there that the release date of that was Sep 1965, that 100% ?

if so, maybe it's other way round as

https://swizzbeatzonline.com/i-cant-get-no-satisfaction-is-the-calling-card-of-the-rolling-stones/

says

The first version of The Rolling Stones’ song “(I Can’t Get No) Satisfaction”, with its harmonica and folk sound, was recorded at Chess studios in Chicago on May 10th, 1965

 

seems may be  so going by the below via google and

https://ontherecordshow.blogspot.com/2012/03/bobby-day-i-dont-need-no-information.html

For his first release, Bobby decided to get into the West Coast soul-dance market with a tune called "Keep The Ball Rolling" (not the same song that Jay and The Techniques would have a hit with in 1967). For the flip, Bobby decided, hey, since the Brits were making a fortune recycling American R&B, why not turn the tables? The recording session took place in the summer of '65, and the record that was ALL OVER the airwaves at that point? "Satisfaction" by The Rolling Stones. So Bobby wrote a complete soul knockoff......not that anyone was going to hear it anyway, being a B-side and all that!

Great detective work. That's cleared that up then. Nice info.

Getting back to the 7 Dwarfs, I think there is no doubt in anybody's mind they stole The Rolling Stones' riff. 

[sukokia]

I love it. I'm all very good at research.

I have another research question about "I Can`t Get No (Satisfaction)" by The Rolling Stones. This song could have been a copy (especially some parts of the voice) of "96 Tears".

Composed by Rudy Martinez, performed by the group Question Mark & The Mysterians.

In the US Copyright registry, it indicates that it was registered in the year 1966, that is, after the song by The Rolling Stones.

On Discogs.com there is a vinyl with Copyright from 1963 https://www.discogs.com/es/release/20994586--Question-Mark-The-Mysterians-96-Tears-Midnight-Hour.

This would prove that the song "96 tears" existed before The Rolling Stones.

What do you think about it? 

[Amsterdam Russ]

8 minutes ago, sukokia said:

On Discogs.com there is a vinyl with Copyright from 1963

It doesn't relate to the copyright of the song, but has something to do with the corporate side of things. Singles released up to 1963 (and there's one release from 1964) state © 1960. Generally those after state © 1963.

[sukokia]

Yes Amsterdam Russ. I understand that if that vinyl where the song "96 Tears" is on has a Copyright from 1963, it is because in 1963 the song already existed. Three years later, in 1966, it was registered in the US. In the 60s, many groups published their songs and years later they registered them if they were successful.

[Mike]

5 minutes ago, sukokia said:

Yes Amsterdam Russ. I understand that if that vinyl where the song "96 Tears" is on has a Copyright from 1963, it is because in 1963 the song already existed. Three years later, in 1966, it was registered in the US. In the 60s, many groups published their songs and years later they registered them if they were successful.

read Russ words again, he's talking about a block copyright, eg all cameo songs that were published after 1963 were published with 1963 as the date

on 96 tears, here are

April 1966 it seems was the date of the recording and the first release prior to cameo

https://garagehangover.com/pa-go-go-discography/

 

maybe best right now to start a new topic on any further  'satisfaction' covers/follow ons etc etc 

https://www.soul-source.co.uk/forums/forum/147-freebasing/?do=add

[Benji]

2 hours ago, Amsterdam Russ said:

It doesn't relate to the copyright of the song, but has something to do with the corporate side of things. Singles released up to 1963 (and there's one release from 1964) state © 1960. Generally those after state © 1963.

From what I understand Cameo-Parkway Records was set up in 1963, hence (c) 1963. Before 1963 it was just Cameo Records.

[Amsterdam Russ]

24 minutes ago, Benji said:

From what I understand Cameo-Parkway Records was set up in 1963, hence (c) 1963. Before 1963 it was just Cameo Records.

The Discogs profile for the label states:

Quote

Label founded 1956 in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania by Bernie Lowe and Kal Mann. In 1958 they started a subsidiary called Parkway Records. By 1967, both labels were losing lots of money and were merged into the single "Cameo Parkway" label (the last major hits were in 1964; with a few exceptions, the company was just getting by on its past reputation). After a brief period being distributed by MGM Records, the company went bankrupt and was sold to Allen B. Klein who turned the Cameo-Parkway operation into ABKCO Records in 1968. 

Source: https://www.discogs.com/label/51615-Cameo

I've not confirmed if those facts are correct, but presume them to be so.

[Sebastian]

On 13/02/2023 at 13:37, Kenb said:

I'm not convinced about 1968.

"Stop Girl" was copyrighted in May 1967 so it's a possibility that the 7" was released in mid/late 1967. But I have no reason to doubt Mike Markesich's research about it being a January 1968 release, he usually doesn't publish anything that he doesn't have firm sources for.

[Kenb]

1 hour ago, Sebastian said:

"Stop Girl" was copyrighted in May 1967 so it's a possibility that the 7" was released in mid/late 1967. But I have no reason to doubt Mike Markesich's research about it being a January 1968 release, he usually doesn't publish anything that he doesn't have firm sources for.

thanks Sebastian. yes, i know mike's teen mayhem work, and agree with you about his provenance. and did visit 45cat before i originally posted.

It's just that IMO there is something not quite correct (or explicable). It may be something in either the (New) Seven Dwarfs/7Dwarfs/Ambassodors line-up's, etc. (is it possible it was recorded/cut B4 '68 but not released until '68...who knows)

Anyhow...i'm happy it's '68.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Kenb