Money Maker - The Scene

[Tomangoes]

There has always been money to be made out of the scene, from record dealing, product dealing, door admissions, clothes, DJ ing, etc.

Who made the most money? Promoters, record dealers, product dealers, DJ's ?

I'm not against it in most cases, as a demand is satisfied, but has anybody actually got rich from it?

Considering most venues close eventually, it hard to think promoters are rolling in it? What about the others?

Ed

[Little-stevie]

Not the djs thats for sure.. Well not the djs who just dj, many are promoters and record dealers too., thats a different ball game!..

[Steve G]

Most record dealers these days are making a 'turn' on something they've probably had to pay quite a bit for - maybe 10-20%. And besides most are also collectors so always reinvesting in the next tune. The days of buying stock cheap and selling high were over years ago.

So I don't think most dealers are making a lot - although one or two always tell me how well they are doing I am never sure whether to believe the hype....

No one has mentioned the bootleggers - probably a lucrative trade there as you can still press up a 45 quite cheaply.

There is an old maxim I was told by a major London figure in the music business once which I sometimes re-quote "there is no money in soul music" - think that holds true for 99.9% who are just pursuing their passion.

[Mike Lofthouse]

I can tell you who has made the least money - the artists and all the creative and talented people involved in the production of the music

[Len]

I would imagine a busy weekender would be a good earner, that's maybe why there's now a few of them. Nowadays there's a lot more people on the scene than when it was just Cleethorpes which made a loss for the first few years. The amount of work involved organising a weekender must be tremendous and I wouldn't think many would put themselves through all that stress just for the love of it alone (Maybe a small minority) I think this amount of work warrants some financial reward at least and great if it's not the only reason for someone to be putting one on of course.

All the best,

Len.

Edited April 12, 2012 by LEN

[Ian Dewhirst]

I think the upper echelon of record dealers still do OK but those will undoubtably be the ones who have invested heavily in stock, have an efficient general operation and a good online capability. Y'know, the pros!

The bigger promoters probably do OK as well if they have regular well attended events (but bear in mind that a couple of clunkers can change everything). I think Chris Burton and Gerry Marshall must have made out like bandits in the 70's though LOL.....

The major record companies will do OK on cheap reissues of their undervalued back catalogue but I think they'd all rather have an Adele selling millions for sure. An average supermarket pop compilation will generally sell at least 3 or 5 times what a Northern Soul compilation will sell, so it's not really a serious money-spinner for the Majors (although there are exceptions to the rule). Indie record companies tend to employ passionate enthusiasts who don't mind working cheap, so a decent selling Northern compilation still makes commercial sense if the costs are kept in control. It's a niche market which is battling a perfect storm in terms of file sharing, declining sales, bootleggers etc though so no quick fortunes here I'm afraid.....

I don't know many DJ's or collectors that are in it for the money. Most are driven by their passion, as Steve said earlier. I was always saving for the next record in the 70's and it never even occured to me that I might actually make a profit from it. And I was right. I didn't, in terms of personal finances. However, in terms of personal enjoyment and great experiences it's been priceless and that's far more important to me.

Ian D

[Guest allnightandy]

There was much talk a few years back about "Northern Soul Millionaires" people who used the scene in any way possible basically "Souled Out "to feather their own nests

But as i have no evidence of this and no money to pay in damages and the fact the information was all hearsay

i can't afford to name names LoL Allegedly

[TommieOnTheSpot]

Artist wise would of said Tommy Hunt has made the most out of the scene, he seems to be the most well recognized live act on the scene: he has loads of performances in clubs throughout the UK, sang at the second anniversary of the Wigan Casino and released stuff on Spark Records would I assume he was paid for

[Geeselad]

Ethically would it be something to be proud of making a mint from an underground working class scene?

To many I'm sure it would be okeh, but the thought of it turns my stomach and makes me quite angry that the scene, so savy and credibility focussed, in some ways would allow it to happen, and maybe, perhaps, hyperthetically allow it to go on happening.

[Roburt]

......... would of said Tommy Hunt has made the most out of the scene ........

Tommy would have made much more (in comparison) back in the US in the early to mid 60's.

The trouble with most artists is that they did't realise that everyone was ripping them off, record companies, promoters, managers, accountants, girl friends et al. By the time they 'wise up' to the ways of the biz, loads of money has slipped thru their fingers. ALSO, by then the taxman is chasing them for arrears & most of the money has gone (which is why David Ruffin & others ended up in jail & Edwin Starr moved to the UK).

Tommy Hunt gets some regular club bookings BUT it is his main job. So £20k a year doesn't go too far when you have a mortgage, fuel, food & the like to pay for.

Just about ALL soul singers gave the biz up because of the hours, travel, lifestyle, uncertainty etc. They settled for a day job and brought up their families (driving trucks, painting & decorating, etc) coz at least that way they got a steady wage.

No, unless you were a Gladys Knight, Chuck Jackson, Reffa or Otis Williams the money you earned singing was never enough.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Roburt

[dthedrug]

There has always been money to be made out of the scene, from record dealing, product dealing, door admissions, clothes, DJing, etc.

Who made the most money? Promoters, record dealers, product dealers, DJs ?

I'm not against it in most cases, as a demand is satisfied, but has anybody actually got rich from it?

Considering most venues close eventually, it hard to think promoters are rolling in it? What about the others?

Ed

Hi All....I think this is a great question, To be honest those people who have made money on the scene, are just the average people in all walks of society, who act on instinct when creating any work, they see an opening or as I would say a gap in service provision, and don't just think about what a good idea or wouldn't be nice if we had this? they act on the opportunity, and the secure knowledge that only 5% of the population, waits to be told or finds life easy working for others, rather then take on any risks,

The most successful are those people who clearly had a understanding of business and the foresight to have a realistic business plan.

Again a very high percentage of the population have poor husbandry skills and will plan no further than 5 weeks ahead, this is normal because the majority do it this way,

To make a living from our scene has aways been that special touch that our scene has, a personal touch if you like, for example if you went to a big live concert, those people selling artifacts poster and so on mean nothing to us, they are just 1 of thousands of people that we will never meet, unlike our scene were everyone is include from the promoter the door staff the brothers & sisters the record dealers also the drug dealers,

If you have been to see any act on the scene, you will notice that their performance is 100% more than average, this is because they are swept of their feet with and buy the scene, A good example was when the DELLS did Trentham Gardens, it was clear to me and Evey one including the band and DELLS that it was the best vibe they had got for many years, also the transparency I remember speaking to Tamiko Jones who was so over whelmed about the scene she just talked in depth for over 30 min before I could ask her a question?

The record dealers on the scene have even got their followers and very loyal they are to, this is because they are very much a part of the scene, and what I like is they just expanded the way the scene run at the start, with most who attended taking a few records to show off, or sell, it's rare that there is an outward conflict with other dealers?

To conclude those who have made a living like Ranking John Manship have done so at the price of giving a whopping big chunk into keeping the scene going, years ago I made money keeping the scene alive through out the night, however this way of making money, well for me had to many hard penalties to it, and money was not appreciated and wasted, so record selling is safe and integral, and I am glad that the scene has this provision, DAVE

[Roburt]

A typical record dealer ......

[Guest allnightandy]

There is a group doing the rounds called "The Casino Allstars" They might be making a few bob out of it

[Sharon Cooper]

Ethically would it be something to be proud of making a mint from an underground working class scene?

To many I'm sure it would be okeh, but the thought of it turns my stomach and makes me quite angry that the scene, so savy and credibility focussed, in some ways would allow it to happen, and maybe, perhaps, hyperthetically allow it to go on happening.

I like you first sentence and wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment: My view would be though, that for the DJs/Promoters who weren`t around when it was truly an 'underground, working class scene` then they wouldn`t give a toss about the history and ethos that went into making it the great scene it once was as long as there`s a few bob to be made from it today. In my opinion the money making side of it is what drives some to Promote and DJ rather than any love of the music. There are so many venues springing up and `DJ`s` with dubious record collections that have jumped on a bandwagon that keeps on rolling that I have gone passed the anger and stomach turning phase and am now just sad to see what it has become in lots af ways.

Sharon

[Len]

I like you first sentence and wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment: My view would be though, that for the DJs/Promoters who weren`t around when it was truly an 'underground, working class scene` then they wouldn`t give a toss about the history and ethos that went into making it the great scene it once was as long as there`s a few bob to be made from it today. In my opinion the money making side of it is what drives some to Promote and DJ rather than any love of the music. There are so many venues springing up and `DJ`s` with dubious record collections that have jumped on a bandwagon that keeps on rolling that I have gone passed the anger and stomach turning phase and am now just sad to see what it has become in lots af ways.

Sharon

As discussed on other threads, many feel the same as you - In general, "Today's Soul Scene is just a 'pastiche' of the real Soul Scene" (copyright Jem) But hey, stay positive and pick out the good bits - The music and there's still lot's of nice, funny, genuine people about (They're usually the quiet ones) J

Right, back 'on topic' - I know John Manship tends to sometimes get a bit of stick for prices etc. I personally like the guy and know he absolutely loves the music; he puts in the hours / hard work etc, and so is there really anything wrong with him making money? I personally don't think there is.

Also, ref his prices - Don't forget he has to pay 20% vat on all sales and he has staff (Just a thought)

All the best,

Len.

Edited April 13, 2012 by LEN

[Guest theoriginator56]

Most record dealers these days are making a 'turn' on something they've probably had to pay quite a bit for - maybe 10-20%. And besides most are also collectors so always reinvesting in the next tune. The days of buying stock cheap and selling high were over years ago.

So I don't think most dealers are making a lot - although one or two always tell me how well they are doing I am never sure whether to believe the hype....

No one has mentioned the bootleggers - probably a lucrative trade there as you can still press up a 45 quite cheaply.

There is an old maxim I was told by a major London figure in the music business once which I sometimes re-quote "there is no money in soul music" - think that holds true for 99.9% who are just pursuing their passion.

steve if u sell the ringleaders i sold u in 1977 for 80p. there would b a hell of a maximum profit. plus doris troy cameo parkway uk demo mint 1981 4kwid.

[Geeselad]

I think maybe the illustious mr levine may be a contender, not neccassarly in a direct way but all those disco efforts he produced and later the hi energy stuff were all influenced by N.S. He's always worn his influences on his sleeve, no matter what you might think he has been a rated and indemand pop producer.

[Sharon Cooper]

As discussed on other threads, many feel the same as you - In general, "Today's Soul Scene is just a 'pastiche' of the real Soul Scene" (copyright Jem) But hey, stay positive and pick out the good bits - The music and there's still lot's of nice, funny, genuine people about (They're usually the quiet ones) J

Thanks Len, thats what we try to do and it is true there are some good genuiune folk out there and still some excellent music being played. Its about being selective - Cheers

Right, back 'on topic' - I know John Manship tends to sometimes get a bit of stick for prices etc. I personally like the guy and know he absolutely loves the music; he puts in the hours / hard work etc, and so is there really anything wrong with him making money? I personally don't think there is.

Also, ref his prices - Don't forget he has to pay 20% vat on all sales and he has staff (Just a thought)

All the best,

Len.

[Davekd]

Interesting question.

I dont know much about the 'past' but dont see alot of people making money from the scene these days.

Just thinking about some hypethetical numbers

If you run an allnighter, get 500 in at a tenner each, you get 5K - take out the venue hire, doormen, people collecting money on the door, posters, fliers and then DJ's costs (and income tax) you might be lucky to end up with a grand from it - sounds good, but could you/do single promoters do that every week or even every month - no and even if they did, is that making a forune from the scene - no.

Smaller promotions on the whole seem to count themselves lucky to break even/not lose money - run an event that has over 100 people in, you might make 50/100 quid if you pay your DJ's something - no making a fortune from the scene there.

So to run a night, your own personal hours alone would be, say eight on the night and maybe another ten to twenty in promoting and hassling - a hundred quid for 3 days work - cant be in it for the money, surely.

DJ's - what does a top level Northern DJ get from an allnighter - I would guess anywhere between 150 and 500 quid - do any of them DJ Allnighters every weekend - no they might get a nice living if they are constantly DJ'ing, but making a fortune - no

Most DJ's that I know are often happy to DJ for free or for beer money only (even some top DJ's are happy to do a small night for free or have thier travel costs paid only) - totally in keeping with the ethos of the scene, I think and not one of them out to make a living from the scene.

People DJ for lots of reasons, but getting rich/making money out of Northern Soul can't be one of them, surely - think about a no-mark laptop wedding/party DJ - lots of them are getting 350 to 500quid for a wedding/party and yes you've got to have the gear etc but if you want to solely make money as a DJ surely that's the way you would go? Not invest in even a duboius record collection and trip around the country for beer money or even a 100quid.

I've not got a clue about record dealers but maybe those selling thier own collections can make decent money but, even with contacts, the thought of buying sufficient high end records and selling them at sufficiently high prices to make decent money, doesnt really stack up for me, especially as prices of a lot of things appear to be on the way down, not up.

Just my thoughts, but I would guess, most people involved in todays scene, still do it for the love of the music.

Dave

[Wiggyflat]

Surely the most money made must have been the mid seventies bootleggers.The only way to have the sounds was on a 45 and there were kids every weekend buying thousands of them plus there was a high turnover of big sounds ensuring a steady turnover.

[Roburt]

To reinforce what I posted above (post 10 in this thread) ........

Here's a current news story ........

Lionel Richie owes $1.1 million in back taxes ........ April 13, 2012

Lionel Richie owes U.S. government $1.1 million in taxes for 2010

Pop music legend Lionel Richie reportedly owes the U.S. government over $1 million in taxes.

According to celebrity gossip site TMZ, the POP & COUNTRY STAR (??!!??!!??) owes the feds $1,130,609.11 in unpaid income taxes for 2010.

The IRS has reportedly put a lien on Richie, meaning he now needs to pony up the dough or the government could seek to claim the amount by taking over the singer's property.

It seems unlikely things will get that far however, as TMZ estimates the former Commodores' lead singer to be worth well over $200 million, making his latest tax issue a small drop in an otherwise very large bucket.

Richie recently released his country music debut Tuskeegee, a collection of his classic hits re-recorded with a Nashville sound, and featuring duets with some of country's biggest stars. According to The Toronto Sun, the album debuted in Canada at the No. 1 position on the charts.

[Tomangoes]

I guess it is a bit of hit and miss for most folks involved. The Soul Survivors CD must have made a bit, the promoters at Wigan will have done well in its first 5 years, and for sure the pressings were flying off the shelves back then.

The film wont make any money, assuming it actually gets completed.

Soul Bowl must have had good years and the badge makers etc had a good run.

Not sure today though that anybody is cleaning up, especially when there is so much competition and in lots of cases venues come and go.

Ed