Uk Sue Demos ?

[Graym]

Probably been covered before but can someone please advise.

I've collected UK for years but embarrassed to say I don't recall ever seeing an obvious UK Sue demo nor had the lack of demos occured to me until tonight.

Been told they can be identified by a black bar between 2 and 3 o'clock on the label running into the red on the right hand side.

In my 2005 issue of John Manship's Price Guide sure enough some of the photos show examples of this, but in the actual listings there are no values suggested. Hence my confusion.

Can anyone help out with an explanation ?

[pikeys dog]

the black bar is blocking out "liscensed from Sue Records" or similar, since they started putting out 45s from different sources and they didn't want to scrap the old labels.

[dthedrug]

HI AL The UK SUE label was once the the licence to promote the US parent company pulled out, started to block the info out with the black bar. for many years it was issued the bar indicated a demo, however as the soul scene grew, it was obvious that there was no copies without the bar? as 1+1 =3 the information about the status of the SUE label become more clear, in fact both labels ISLAND & SUE have real spurious legit about them,

It was not challenged until 1966/7 when John Abbey took over the labels output from Guy Stevens, that anybody challenged it. and Island records answer was to change both labels, Island went Pink, and SUE become Action, however the person who paid the price for spilling the beans, so to speak, was BLUES & SOUL journalist DAVE GODIN who was getting his SOUL CITY label pressed by PHILLIPS/ISLAND, They made life a misery for Dave and his SOUL CITY label, perhaps the most upsetting was the release of Shirley Lawson the STAR SC 108 which was withdrawn, thus making it the rarest SOUL CITY Record by far, we don't count SC120 do we?

So there are no SUE DEMOS, ACTION have he B&C skellington A Stamp, and there are 4 SOUL CITY promos, can you name them?

Hope this helps? I have scanned my copy of Shirly Lawson with apology note from Dave Godin DAVE K

[Denbo]

the black bar is blocking out "liscensed from Sue Records" or similar, since they started putting out 45s from different sources and they didn't want to scrap the old labels.

That's correct Joe.

[Denbo]

HI AL The UK SUE label was once the the licence to promote the US parent company pulled out, started to block the info out with the black bar. for many years it was issued the bar indicated a demo, however as the soul scene grew, it was obvious that there was no copies without the bar? as 1+1 =3 the information about the status of the SUE label become more clear, in fact both labels ISLAND & SUE have real spurious legit about them,

It was not challenged until 1966/7 when John Abbey took over the labels output from Guy Stevens, that anybody challenged it. and Island records answer was to change both labels, Island went Pink, and SUE become Action, however the person who paid the price for spilling the beans, so to speak, was BLUES & SOUL journalist DAVE GODIN who was getting his SOUL CITY label pressed by PHILLIPS/ISLAND, They made life a misery for Dave and his SOUL CITY label, perhaps the most upsetting was the release of Shirley Lawson the STAR SC 108 which was withdrawn, thus making it the rarest SOUL CITY Record by far, we don't count SC120 do we?

So there are no SUE DEMOS, ACTION have he B&C skellington A Stamp, and there are 4 SOUL CITY promos, can you name them?

Hope this helps? I have scanned my copy of Shirly Lawson with apology note from Dave Godin DAVE K

A very interesting report and thanks for posting that up Dave.

I would, however, like to make a small contribution in regard to UK Sue Demos.

My understanding, if memory serves me well, is from many years ago and from Brian Rae, who was a UK Sue label distributor here in the North way back then. He told me that UK Sue Demos were simply stamped with a fairly small black capitol 'A'. I have two or three of these, and until he told me otherwise, always thought they represented the A-side of the record.

So, pick the bones out of that one, and with luck, it may turn out to be true.

I suppose we could ask Brian Rae to confirm or deny my suggestion. I hope he confirms it to be true, otherwise I may need to book an appointment with my local GP for tests on possible memory loss / distortion.

As for the 4 Soul City Demos, which were just black and white plus a small black capitol 'A', I didn't know there were just 4.

The ones I know of are;

Valentinos - a friend of mine has this one

Shirley Lawson - saw one of these some years ago

Billy Preston - the one I have

Is the 4th one Chuck Edwards? Have a feeling I've seen one of these in black and white too.

[dthedrug]

A very interesting report and thanks for posting that up Dave.

I would, however, like to make a small contribution in regard to UK Sue Demos.

My understanding, if memory serves me well, is from many years ago and from Brian Rae, who was a UK Sue label distributor here in the North way back then. He told me that UK Sue Demos were simply stamped with a fairly small black capitol 'A'. I have two or three of these, and until he told me otherwise, always thought they represented the A-side of the record.

So, pick the bones out of that one, and with luck, it may turn out to be true.

I suppose we could ask Brian Rae to confirm or deny my suggestion. I hope he confirms it to be true, otherwise I may need to book an appointment with my local GP for tests on possible memory loss / distortion.

As for the 4 Soul City Demos, which were just black and white plus a small black capitol 'A', I didn't know there were just 4.

The ones I know of are;

Valentinos - a friend of mine has this one

Shirley Lawson - saw one of these some years ago

Billy Preston - the one I have

Is the 4th one Chuck Edwards? Have a feeling I've seen one of these in black and white too.

HI And cheers for the comments, as far as I am aware ISLAND RECORDS / SUE RECORDS.

Never issued any DEMO records, any record that has the London address stamped on come from the ISLAND SHOPS such as MUSIC CITY they were all a part of B&C, the stamped ones were not DEMOS, but reduced in price, I have put a good example up for you, Brian did indeed sell SUE RECORDS again I have a complete list of all the shops in the UK & Northern Ireland.

The 1 st SUE RECORD WI-301 INEZ FOXX MOCKINGBIRD, was 1st issued with a TRI centre and is very hard to find?, the SOUL CITY PROMOS are SC 104, SC 107, both are black and white DEMOS, SC 110 has no label, but record infomation hand written, by DAVE GODIN, every one, mine slopes he must of had cramp? & the Rarest is SC 114 which belongs to MICK SMITH, SC 108 NEVER COME OUT AS A DEMO, and I would like to see a scan of SC 106, As I am sure there must be others, but DAVE did not promote the label outside the security of the scene, DAVE

[Denbo]

HI And cheers for the comments, as far as I am aware ISLAND RECORDS / SUE RECORDS.

Never issued any DEMO records, any record that has the London address stamped on come from the ISLAND SHOPS such as MUSIC CITY they were all a part of B&C, the stamped ones were not DEMOS, but reduced in price, I have put a good example up for you, Brian did indeed sell SUE RECORDS again I have a complete list of all the shops in the UK & Northern Ireland.

The 1 st SUE RECORD WI-301 INEZ FOXX MOCKINGBIRD, was 1st issued with a TRI centre and is very hard to find?, the SOUL CITY PROMOS are SC 104, SC 107, both are black and white DEMOS, SC 110 has no label, but record infomation hand written, by DAVE GODIN, every one, mine slopes he must of had cramp? & the Rarest is SC 114 which belongs to MICK SMITH, SC 108 NEVER COME OUT AS A DEMO, and I would like to see a scan of SC 106, As I am sure there must be others, but DAVE did not promote the label outside the security of the scene, DAVE

Hi Dave,

Can't see the example of the 'reduced in price' record? Unless you mean the white Island one with 3/- stamp? If so, that's not what I was on about. What I was talking about is a black 'A' about 3/4" in size, rubber stamped onto the label. I'll try and post up an example when I get home.

[Denbo]

As for the Soul City Demos;

Now you mention it, I've seen a black and white Major Lance SC114, a LONG time ago.

But, what about the Valentinos Demo? I've defo seen one and an old friend of mine has one.

The tri-centre Sue 301 looks cool.

[Denbo]

Dave,

When you say Shirley Lawson THE STAR SC 108 was withdrawn, that means after the first batch was pressed, right? Which accounts for those few in our collections? If so, I wonder how many constituted a batch?

[dthedrug]

Hi Dave,

Can't see the example of the 'reduced in price' record? Unless you mean the white Island one with 3/- stamp? If so, that's not what I was on about. What I was talking about is a black 'A' about 3/4" in size, rubber stamped onto the label. I'll try and post up an example when I get home.

HI The ISLAND recordd is stamped by ISLAND records, Please send scan, I have seen records with the A on SEA CRUISE is one, and to a piont you are right, but I think quite a few records that were played at the wheel that come from Island had a A on, Brian maybe talking about the club records, if so they are very limited in number, I have some rare DEMOS to show you, DAVE

[Pete S]

Dave,

When you say Shirley Lawson THE STAR SC 108 was withdrawn, that means after the first batch was pressed, right? Which accounts for those few in our collections? If so, I wonder how many constituted a batch?

Must have been a fairly big batch, I've never rated this as being a rare record, I must have had ten copies over the years, all of a sudden it's over £100 - it's a joke really.

[Sean Hampsey]

If so, that's not what I was on about. What I was talking about is a black 'A' about 3/4" in size, rubber stamped onto the label. I'll try and post up an example when I get home.

This is a typical example of the UK Sue Demo you're probably referring to.

Seen and had many of these over the years and always understood them to be Demo copies.

Sean

[Sean Hampsey]

Must have been a fairly big batch, I've never rated this as being a rare record, I must have had ten copies over the years, all of a sudden it's over £100 - it's a joke really.

I've had three copies Pete - and I'm not a dealer.

The popularity of 'One More Chance' this past 10 years and the 'bootlegging' of the Back Beat copy has obviously pushed up the price.

Sean

[Sean Hampsey]

Billy Preston attached.

Also seen Valentinos - Definitely exists as a WLP.

Sean

[Sean Hampsey]

Valentinos.

Sean

[Wiggyflat]

Here's a few of mine....looks like the inked A's are to denote the plug side...looks like some stores had a habit of ink stamping their shop and even price

[Guest taffy]

Had a complete run of sue records early 80's and the only demos i ever found apart from the type sean has shown were white label hand written ones.Had about 6 different ones and i'm sure they were all 300 numbers.

[dthedrug]

Hi All Great stuff,..1st off the STAR SC 108, I would have to consult with Mick about this, as he used to go to the SOUL CITY SHOP, the info card that come with a normal issue in mint condition, both Mick & myself had never seen it, or read about it, but it's so DAVE G,

What consists of a batch 8:-5 Moby Thesaurus words for "batch": amount, array, assortment, block, budget, bulk, bunch, bundle, chunk, clod, clump, cluster, clutch, collection, considerable, copse, count, crop, deal, dose, gob, gobs, good deal, great deal, group, grouping, groupement, grove, hassock, heap, heaps, hunk, knot, large amount, lashings, loads, loaf, lot, lots, lump, make, making, mass, measure, mess, mint, nugget, number, oodles, pack, parcel, part, pat, peck, pile, piles, portion, pot, quantity, quite a little, raft, rafts, ration, run, scads, set, shock, sight, slew, slews, small amount, spate, stack, stacks, stook, sum, thicket, tidy sum, tuft, tussock, volume, wad, wads, whole slew, wisp well I will let you choose? I would say DAVE meant a run? which is 99, 150 or 200,

Fur the record Pete, back in 68 to 72, most young dudes mainly bought budget LPs I had many, however some where integral depending whee you lived for example down south best sellers would be the TROJAN TIGHTEN UP 1,2 & 3, RED RED WINE, PAMA, BANG BANG LULU, NU-BEAT GREATEST HITS, SOUL SOURCE, THE CHAMP, ISLAND ROCK STEADY & CLUB 67/8, 331/3 MINIT EVEN THE CBS DOUBLE LP FILL YOUR HEAD WITH ROCK, ISLAND NICE ENOUGH TO EAT,

You get my drift? the SOUL CITY VA LP was also common to own, and the STAR was one of the biggest on the LP I did not get the 45 until 1971 nothing has really changed over my life clubbing it, the typical 18 year old today may have a few tunes but they have not got collections like we have, they go out clubbing just the same as I did, the availability of such records like the Star was purchased by a very small number of hard core soul freaks, this leads me back to putting records in category, such as my big moan at the term SKINHEAD REGGEA as I say the average person from that period could today probably name no more than 20 records, the same thing goes for the early soul days, how many records could you say were common in 1969? March April ?? DESMOND DECKER, That's a start maybe you have had loads of copies of the STAR however it will always be a rare record in my book, you will have to take my word on this one, as life was not all about reggae and rare soul music that was played at the TWISTED WHEEL or the FLAMINGO! I will get back to the other points later tonight DAVE

[Denbo]

Valentinos.

Sean

Thanks for that Sean.

[Denbo]

Billy Preston attached.

Also seen Valentinos - Definitely exists as a WLP.

Sean

That's the one I've got.

[Denbo]

This is a typical example of the UK Sue Demo you're probably referring to.

Seen and had many of these over the years and always understood them to be Demo copies.

Sean

That's it Sean. Thanks.

[dthedrug]

Had a complete run of sue records early 80's and the only demos i ever found apart from the type Sean has shown were white label hand written ones.Had about 6 different ones and I'm sure they were all 300 numbers.

Hi son, did you ever see the Big Jay McNeely? that I gave to Mick, it was a UK press but the label was RED & BLACK, it must have been made in Jamaica, also I had a few of the A stamped SUE from DAVIDS BOOKSHOP but none of them were the top sounds at the time, when the IRONS move from the BOLYNN I will have to get a bit of the North Bank Half way up behind the Goal, what you say,?

[Pete S]

Here's a few of mine....looks like the inked A's are to denote the plug side...looks like some stores had a habit of ink stamping their shop and even price

The Portobello Road shop seems to have been a dumping ground for Sue and Island 45's, I couldn't estimate how many red and white Island's I've seen with that stamp, but it's "lots".

[dthedrug]

The Portobello Road shop seems to have been a dumping ground for Sue and Island 45's, I couldn't estimate how many red and white Island's I've seen with that stamp, but it's "lots".

Hi Pete cheers for that as you are dead right, however that was the 1st stop also a shop in Notting Hill Gate was similar, I was told it once had a window display made up of about 50 LP sleeves of the Small Faces Ogden's, when they went in to ask how much the LP were he was told we only got them sleeves? all mint, Also in 1981 I found 3 shops in Wolves with loads of Blue Beat Doctor Bird Sue Records + the SOUIX Label which did have RED A demos, one shop was just of the New Hampton rd another was just of that road and on the right hand side of the 1st left, I had some great reggae out that shop, and in BILSTON they had stuff way into the 1990s, I think most original junk shop hunters pre car boot come across pile of Reggae in the late 70s, have you seen a SUE DEMO PETE??? a 100% DEMO I would like to see one, wouldn't you? DAVE

[Roburt]

Record biz folklore has it that when 'reggae involved' record companies such as Island & loads of the London West Indian related indies needed to clear out storeroom space, lots of 'unsold / unwanted' 45's were taken up to a municipal waste tip just outside St Albans and dumped there. Reggae /soul specialist related London based distributors also followed the same practice (or so I'm told). Guess there wasn't a record collector on the 'staff' at the tip back then !!!

[Dean Rudland]

Record biz folklore has it that when 'reggae involved' record companies such as Island & loads of the London West Indian related indies needed to clear out storeroom space, lots of 'unsold / unwanted' 45's were taken up to a municipal waste tip just outside St Albans and dumped there. Reggae /soul specialist related London based distributors also followed the same practice (or so I'm told). Guess there wasn't a record collector on the 'staff' at the tip back then !!!

I think Tony Rounce knows where all the London reggae overstocks went. He has a great story about him and Steve Barrow finding it in the mid 70s, but I can't remember it properly so perhaps he can be tempted to tell it.

[Theothertosspot]

Got a copy of Joe Matthews, "Sorry Ain't Good Enough", licensed from Thelma, which I understand is quite rare, although not on demo (was this a later release after the American Sue runs?) but am yet to see a copy of Kelly Brothers, Crying Days. Does anybody have one (would like to purchase but no idea of rarity/price).

How come James Brown, "Night Train", was released on Sue when it was previously released on Columbia, was it club demand, and why not re-released on Columbia? (think I'm right with Columbia)

Regards Bob

Edited April 10, 2012 by theothertosspot

[Denbo]

Could THIS be a UK Sue Demo?

[Pete S]

Could THIS be a UK Sue Demo?

Yes, in another universe

looks like a ropey Jamaican copy

[Roburt]

Looks exactly like many Jamaican pressed 45's to me.

They just used to photstat the US / UK label & print up their labels (sometimes with different colours BUT ALWAYS using beat-up printing machines & rubbish paper ....... hence most Jamaican 45's looked knackered when they were made).

The vinyl content of the discs was always just as bad. Recycled plastic (+ old minced up paper labels + sweepings off the pressing plant floor). Mind you, the reggae toasters / DJ's treated the discs awfully anyway so in many cases it didn't matter how bad they started out.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Roburt

[Denbo]

Yes, in another universe

looks like a ropey Jamaican copy

Looks exactly like many Jamaican pressed 45's to me.

They just used to photstat the US / UK label & print up their labels (sometimes with different colours BUT ALWAYS using beat-up printing machines & ribbish paper ....... hence most Jamaican 45's looked knackered when they were made).

As I thought. But also thought it was worth posting up.