Al Gardner - Sweet Baby - Has A Box Turned Up?

[Steve G]

I would like to know also. Bootlegging is the illegal use of distribution of someone else's material. It's too bad the only person who gets paid is the seller. It's so difficult to track them down and sooo expensive. It's not worth money you put behind it.

Lorraine

Lorraine thank you for replying. I didn't know the French release was a bootleg. Glad to have a Sepia copy that still fills dancefloors....

[Headsy]

was it not Giles Petard who released all these on Googa Mooda ,apparently under copyright ?

[Guest Andy Kempster]

i always thought the gooda mooga was a legit release, all be it not the original, is this not so then?

[Steve L]

Lorraine thank you for replying. I didn't know the French release was a bootleg. Glad to have a Sepia copy that still fills dancefloors....

Has everyone just always assumed these were legal issues Steve? What about other Googa Mooga records, Eddie Parker etc?

[Sebastian]

Lorraine thank you for replying. I didn't know the French release was a bootleg.

It would surprise me if the french releases on the GOOGA MOOGA label are bootlegs. Demand for them at the time of release was pretty much nonexistent.

GOOGA MOOGA 701 - Eddie Parker - Love You Baby (vocal) / Love You Baby (instrumental)

GOOGA MOOGA 702 - Al Gardner - Sweet Baby / I Can't Stand It

GOOGA MOOGA 703 - Ironing Board Sam - Funky Bell Bottoms / Treat Me Right

GOOGA MOOGA 704 - Eddie Parker - I Need A True Love / Crying Clown

...and with Billy Sha-Rae tracks being released at roughly the same time on french DISCQUES VOGUE (which are definitely not bootlegs) it to me seems like someone was shopping these productions around.

DISQUES VOGUE INT.80273 - Billy Sha-Rae - Let's Do It Again / I'm Gone

DISQUES VOGUE INT.80265 - Billy Sha-Rae - Do It / Crying Clown

Edited March 29, 2012 by Sebastian

[Roburt]

Perhaps Jack Ashford did the deal & never told Lorraine about it.

I doubt the French label would have paid much (any?) upfront advance on royalties.

Maybe Jack thought that just getting his records released in Europe at no cost to him was sufficient & any royalty money from actual sales that might come along later, just 'icing on the cake'.

[Sebastian]

Perhaps Jack Ashford did the deal & never told Lorraine about it.

I doubt the French label would have paid much (any?) upfront advance on royalties.

Maybe Jack thought that just getting his records released in Europe at no cost to him was sufficient & any royalty money from actual sales that might come along later, just 'icing on the cake'.

That mirror my thoughts.

[Wrongcrowd]

Usually, 200-500 copies are initially pressed. That would be the minimum, especially on the SEPIA label.

Lorraine

I think the entire press of ther Four Sonics + One release must have shipped to the UK then Lorraine.... 100's of them. Do you recall how well this 45 sold in the US ? I remember reading somewhere that you were the + One on that recording.... is that correct ?

Edited March 29, 2012 by Wrongcrowd

[KevH]

It would surprise me if the french releases on the GOOGA MOOGA label are bootlegs. Demand for them at the time of release was pretty much nonexistent.

GOOGA MOOGA 701 - Eddie Parker - Love You Baby (vocal) / Love You Baby (instrumental)

GOOGA MOOGA 702 - Al Gardner - Sweet Baby / I Can't Stand It

GOOGA MOOGA 703 - Ironing Board Sam - Funky Bell Bottoms / Treat Me Right

GOOGA MOOGA 704 - Eddie Parker - I Need A True Love / Crying Clown

...and with Billy Sha-Rae tracks being released at roughly the same time on french DISCQUES VOGUE (which are definitely not bootlegs) it to me seems like someone was shopping these productions around.

DISQUES VOGUE INT.80273 - Billy Sha-Rae - Let's Do It Again / I'm Gone

DISQUES VOGUE INT.80265 - Billy Sha-Rae - Do It / Crying Clown

Just to reiterate Sebastian,the label spelling on the Al Gardner is GOODA Mooga.Maybe there's something in the misspelling? Possibly spotted after release,or if Googa Mooga already existed legit,(701),it could be a very smart boot?

May be all b88llox of course,cos i've not checked the other labels ..

Edited March 29, 2012 by KevH

[Premium Stuff]

Just to reiterate Sebastian,the label spelling on the Al Gardner is GOODA Mooga.Maybe there's something in the misspelling? Possibly spotted after release,or if Googa Mooga already existed legit,(701),it could be a very smart boot?

May be all b88llox of course,cos i've not checked the other labels ..

I have the Al Gardner and both the Eddie Parker 45s on this label - all with picture sleeves.

On Al Gardner The GooDA Mooga spelling is only on the 45 label. The picture sleeve says GooGa Mooga.

There is nothing I can see from a quick look which suggests it is not legit.

The picture sleeve even has the little 'tear off' paper tab inside like the other releases.

Cheers

Richard

[lorchand]

Lorraine, its great that via the UK NS scene you can be re-acquainted with some of your old work ... & that you realise how good it was & how loved the old tracks still are.

Your detailed knowledge of what went down over 40 years ago is astounding (so we KNOW you turned up to the office every day in 'full working order').

You are also a truly lovely lady as I can personally attest from meeting you on both of the occasions that you performed at Prestatyn.

MORE POWER TO YOU.

Roburt,

Thank you for the kind words. It has truly been my pleasure to entertain you all. While I still have copies of these records (and tapes), I just don't play them. It truly is a shame because they are pretty good, if I must say so myself. Maybe some of you don't know that you are listening to the beginning of our careers. We were just getting started in singing, producing, writing, etc. Can you imagine what we could have accomplished with another five years under our belts?

Again, thank you for the compliments.

Lorraine

[lorchand]

was it not Giles Petard who released all these on Googa Mooda ,apparently under copyright ?

As far as I know, the only authorized release was Eddie Parker's Love You Baby.

[lorchand]

i always thought the gooda mooga was a legit release, all be it not the original, is this not so then?

Sorry, never heard of the gooda mooga label. I don't think the original label would misspell their name.

Lorraine

[lorchand]

Perhaps Jack Ashford did the deal & never told Lorraine about it.

I doubt the French label would have paid much (any?) upfront advance on royalties.

Maybe Jack thought that just getting his records released in Europe at no cost to him was sufficient & any royalty money from actual sales that might come along later, just 'icing on the cake'.

Roburt,

Fortunately, Jack Ashford is still around and I have no problems in asking him (you can too on Facebook). As far as our conversations in the past has revealed, again, only the Eddie Parker record was released during that time. Jack never spoke of any other releases then or in later years, but I will ask him.

[Guest Andy Kempster]

you'd be surprised the amount of bad spellings on labels lorraine

[lorchand]

I have the Al Gardner and both the Eddie Parker 45s on this label - all with picture sleeves.

On Al Gardner The GooDA Mooga spelling is only on the 45 label. The picture sleeve says GooGa Mooga.

There is nothing I can see from a quick look which suggests it is not legit.

The picture sleeve even has the little 'tear off' paper tab inside like the other releases.

Cheers

Richard

Richard,

That particular picture came out with the release of Sweet Baby in the USA. I still have hundreds! It doesn't legitimize the record in France though. Al Gardner gave his picture out like candy. The 'sweet baby' picture was everywhere.

Lorraine

[lorchand]

I think the entire press of ther Four Sonics + One release must have shipped to the UK then Lorraine.... 100's of them. Do you recall how well this 45 sold in the US ? I remember reading somewhere that you were the + One on that recording.... is that correct ?

Wrong Crowd,

We had this discussion on my thread (New Member-Lorraine Chandler) regarding that wonderful group. The group sold well locally, but as groups go... I know I gave a couple of boxes of the Sonics to John Anderson (Grapevine) on one of his visits here years ago.

The 'plus one' is Johnny Dixon, not me, I swear. I referred to him earlier in this thread as a wonderful singer and you can hear his vocal talents (the second lead) on this recording.

Lorraine

Edited March 29, 2012 by lorchand

[lorchand]

you'd be surprised the amount of bad spellings on labels lorraine

Andyk123,

The label's name??? Writers, producers or even the singer, but the label?

Lorraine

[lorchand]

It would surprise me if the french releases on the GOOGA MOOGA label are bootlegs. Demand for them at the time of release was pretty much nonexistent.

GOOGA MOOGA 701 - Eddie Parker - Love You Baby (vocal) / Love You Baby (instrumental)

GOOGA MOOGA 702 - Al Gardner - Sweet Baby / I Can't Stand It

GOOGA MOOGA 703 - Ironing Board Sam - Funky Bell Bottoms / Treat Me Right

GOOGA MOOGA 704 - Eddie Parker - I Need A True Love / Crying Clown

...and with Billy Sha-Rae tracks being released at roughly the same time on french DISCQUES VOGUE (which are definitely not bootlegs) it to me seems like someone was shopping these productions around.

DISQUES VOGUE INT.80273 - Billy Sha-Rae - Let's Do It Again / I'm Gone

DISQUES VOGUE INT.80265 - Billy Sha-Rae - Do It / Crying Clown

Hi Sebastian,

Made the inquiry to Jack Ashford concerning the above and he said outside of the Eddie Parker release, he didn't authorize any of the above to Googa Mooga, nor did he know a Giles Petard.

Lorraine

[Premium Stuff]

Hi Sebastian,

Made the inquiry to Jack Ashford concerning the above and he said outside of the Eddie Parker release, he didn't authorize any of the above to Googa Mooga, nor did he know a Giles Petard.

Lorraine

Hi Lorraine

Thanks very much for the clarification - it's interesting stuff.

There were two Eddie Parker releases, so I am guessing the official release authoriesed by Jack was 'Love You Baby' and then the others were unofficial/unauthorised - so I guess one could/should call them bootlegs (albeit on an official label Googa Mooga)?

Thanks

Richard

Edited March 30, 2012 by Premium Stuff

[KevH]

Hi Lorraine

Thanks very much for the clarification - it's interesting stuff.

There were two Eddie Parker releases, so I am guessing the official release authoriesed by Jack was 'Love You Baby' and then the others were unofficial/unauthorised - so I guess one could/should call them bootlegs (albeit on an official label Googa Mooga)?

Thanks

Richard

.Oh well,not looking good for the Al Gardner.

[Rom1]

Hi,

I'm French (& collector) and in 20 years of collecting I still have not a true answer about Googa Mooga's records.

A old french collector told me it was a plan launched by 2 or 3 French soul/R&B fans in the late 60's-early 70's.

They had problems to find a major French label...they finally found a very small label called "Hom¨re" which was a tiny label specialised for deaf people (!) & poetry.

The BIEM logo on every Googa Mooga labels (and on every French records in the 60's) means that they officially (at the time) declared the records to the French authorities...so these records are definitively not bootlegs.

I don't think Gilles Petard was on this plan, but I'll ask him next time I see him.

Romain

[45cellar]

Reminds me of this thread from a few years back

>>> <<<

[Premium Stuff]

Hi,

I'm French (& collector) and in 20 years of collecting I still have not a true answer about Googa Mooga's records.

A old french collector told me it was a plan launched by 2 or 3 French soul/R&B fans in the late 60's-early 70's.

They had problems to find a major French label...they finally found a very small label called "Hom¨re" which was a tiny label specialised for deaf people (!) & poetry.

The BIEM logo on every Googa Mooga labels (and on every French records in the 60's) means that they officially (at the time) declared the records to the French authorities...so these records are definitively not bootlegs.

I don't think Gilles Petard was on this plan, but I'll ask him next time I see him.

Romain

As Lorraine rightly pointed out bootlegging is the illegal use of distribution of someone else's material.

So if Jack et al did not give permissions for the material to be used or distributed I would argue they are bootlegs

Cheers

Richard

[Rom1]

As Lorraine rightly pointed out bootlegging is the illegal use of distribution of someone else's material.

So if Jack et al did not give permissions for the material to be used or distributed I would argue they are bootlegs

Cheers

Richard

Yes,you're right Richard

I can imagine illegal uses of distribution of someone else's material was probably common in these times (& now too)...really bad & sad for artists

[Steve G]

The BIEM logo on every Googa Mooga labels (and on every French records in the 60's) means that they officially (at the time) declared the records to the French authorities...so these records are definitively not bootlegs.

Romain

Hi Romain,

Putting BIEM on a record though doesn't mean they had the correct owners authority to release it does it?

Steve

Edited March 30, 2012 by Steve G

[Rom1]

Hi Romain,

Putting BIEM on a record though doesn't mean they had the correct owners authority to release it does it?

Steve

Hi Steve,

Normally yes.

I didn't know just only one record on the 4 issued by Googa Mooga had the correct owners authority to release it.

[Rick Cooper]

I can't add anything to the original question on "Sweet Baby" but can add a little to the Googa Mooga mystery.

When I was working at Global Records in Manchester I tracked down the Googa Mooga owners as I thought Eddie Parker" Love You Baby" would be a good seller even though it had been pressed (legally?) a few years before. This would be around 1975/6 ish and Wigan was playing it in Mr M's a lot. I don't remember how I found the address for Googa but I think it was in some sort of international Billboard directory so they were still operating as a record label.

When I contacted them they said they had stocks of Eddie P and Al Gardner so they didn't re-press the records just for the UK, also the price (surprise surprise) was still for a new record. I ordered 1000 Eddie Parker and (I think) 200 Al Gardner. Global mainly sold to UK shops so Eddie Parker sold well as the shop owners had heard of it but Al Gardner hardly sold at all. The price was about 65 p each , that's pence not pounds.

In my opinion the label was legit but they may have leased Love You Baby with some sort of side deal for other titles.

They sent a free copy of the other releases but I didn't order any.

The address I had for Googa Mooga was

E.D.I.M

3 Cite Magenta

Paris 10e

Phone 010 33 1 202 6896

I don't know what E.D.I.M means , is it box number type thing.

I didn't have a name for the owners .

As to why the records were issued in France, why not? Soul was, and still, is very popular there. Didn't they have things called discotheques there?

Sweet Baby was first played by Ian Levine but it wasn't really a winner for him on the dance floor as the rhythm was too subtle, but was a collectors record and was hard to get on Sepia so Googa Mooga copies are probably more common as other people have said. I think it's a great record but not one I'd jump up for.

Rick

[KevH]

I'm staying near 3 Cite Magenta in May.I'll have a walk past out of curiosity.And because i'm an anorak.

[Rick Cooper]

Just noticed that the sleeve notes and design for the Googa Mooga records were by Luc Tabare so I suppose he was the owner.

Rick

[Marc Forrest]

if they are bootlegs (and I am still not 100 %convinced I must say) they would be the very first in the book of northern soul history really, wouldnt they ? there used to be so many tiny labels (even in germany) which did release strangely scarce us soul tunes...german spectrum and heliodor spring to my mind. one really cant imagine at which audience they were aimed at,as soul for sure was en vogue back then yes but as far as for germany it was motown and aretha franklin etc definitely not unknown and unheard of soul from stateside. if you would bootleg sth surely you would like to see that thing being sold. but to sell bootlegs by unknown artists with unknown tunes on the european continent back in the sixties ? no chance I would think ? so I somehow imagine the people behind those releases must have had the contacts or must have been die hard soul fans who just realsed them to entertain themselves or for the love of the music...or both. another question that needs to be thought of in order to answer wether these releases could be bootlegs is why did they only release songs that were related to each other via writers, us labels etc. ... releases by any other totally unrelated artist(s) would make more sense if they were doing a series of bootlegs...why no releases from other labels based in nyc, ohio or whereever ?

[Dave Pinch]

so is darrell banks on london a bootleg seeing as it wasnt authorised by the detroit people. honestly its a can of worms that wants to be left alone imo

[Dylan]

one really cant imagine at which audience they were aimed at,

my guess would be the black americans stationed at the airforce bases ?

[Chalky]

so is darrell banks on london a bootleg seeing as it wasnt authorised by the detroit people. honestly its a can of worms that wants to be left alone imo

I guess no one was gonna check details like licensing back then. If registered back then, most in authority would assume legally done so.

I guess most if really into original vinyl when DJing will have to change their thinking with Googa Mooga now, or at least three of the releases.

[Guest Dave Turner]

This is the side for me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dw9_fRh4GMw

I agree Matt, definitely the side for me as well.

Also the flip to "Watch Yourself" on Sir-Rah is for me one of the all time GREAT soul records.

Shame someone went a bit daft with the felt tip.

[Steve L]

I remember a thread from a few years back where doubt was cast on the legality of some UK label 60s issues that had always been thought of as cast iron legit.

A can of worms indeed, I suppose 100% certainty isn't possible in any of this.

[Ian Seaman]

phew glad i sold all my googa mooga 45's a few years back, the sleeves weren't that nice imho, can't remember playing any of them out though as had Eddie P on Ashford at the time (probably still got it somewhere)

Think Dave's right and leave well alone !!, i think they can be played out as OVO as euro copies no problems !

Ian.

[pikeys dog]

If googa mooga issues are bootlegs, then they were far and above much better quality than any boots made since.

From the amount of information on the labels, to the write ups and personnel listings on the sleeves, they are a quality item.

Surely if you were going to boot something to make a 'quick buck', you wouldn't bother with any of the production and writers credits?

[Jumpinjoan]

phew glad i sold all my googa mooga 45's a few years back, the sleeves weren't that nice imho, can't remember playing any of them out though as had Eddie P on Ashford at the time (probably still got it somewhere)

Think Dave's right and leave well alone !!, i think they can be played out as OVO as euro copies no problems !

Ian.

I don't consider them to be OVO at all, originals are on Sepia.

Some people may think they are ok to play out but not this girl.

[lorchand]

Hi,

I'm French (& collector) and in 20 years of collecting I still have not a true answer about Googa Mooga's records.

A old french collector told me it was a plan launched by 2 or 3 French soul/R&B fans in the late 60's-early 70's.

They had problems to find a major French label...they finally found a very small label called "Hom¨re" which was a tiny label specialised for deaf people (!) & poetry.

The BIEM logo on every Googa Mooga labels (and on every French records in the 60's) means that they officially (at the time) declared the records to the French authorities...so these records are definitively not bootlegs.

I don't think Gilles Petard was on this plan, but I'll ask him next time I see him.

Romain

Bonjour Romain!

Please keep me informed when you speak to Monsieur Petard. I would like to know who did what. I would also like to know who paid whom.

Lorraine

Edited March 31, 2012 by lorchand

[lorchand]

I agree Matt, definitely the side for me as well.

Also the flip to "Watch Yourself" on Sir-Rah is for me one of the all time GREAT soul records.

Shame someone went a bit daft with the felt tip.

Everytime Al Gardner sung (sang) the line, "just, just a touch of your hand...," I was reaching out to touch his in the studio (not really, but I wanted to!). When you have an artist like this that can express the words and gives the melody the passion it deserves, it makes your body shake. Truly a work of art vocally. I think this is why I write. Between him and Eddie Parker, they drove me crazy with their interpretations of music.

Lorraine

Edited March 31, 2012 by lorchand

[Dylan]

Everytime Al Gardner sung (sang) the line, "just, just a touch of your hand...," I was reaching out to touch his in the studio (not really, but I wanted to!). When you have an artist like this that can express the words and gives the melody the passion it deserves, it makes your body shakes. Truly a work of art vocally. I think this is why I write. Between him and Eddie Parker, they drove me crazy with their interpretations of music.

Lorraine

"just the touch of your hand" is brilliant. Reading this thread made me dig it out for a listen.

eddie parker "but if you must go" might just be mj favourite record from detroit. I've never managed to find one though.

[ricticman]

I don't consider them to be OVO at all, originals are on Sepia.

Some people may think they are ok to play out but not this girl.

spot on !

[Rick Cooper]

I can't say for sure that Googa Mooga records are bootlegs but anyone who does needs to come up with evidence or shut up, innocent till proven guilty. From my dealings with Googa Mooga, and being the only person on here who has (see post 78),there is no reason to accuse them of being illegal bootlegers. As for not being eligible for playing out this would rule out every contemporary UK or outside US issue.

Not wishing to upset the living legend and my hero, Lorraine Chandler, it would not be the first time that the creative people involved in a record were not aware of all releases especially to an insignificant part of the world . Also sometimes people claim to have the ownership of a recording allowing them to lease it to someone outside the US are not the true owners. I had experience of this with William Bell and Brunswick over issuing Purple Haze in the UK.It can be a legal minefield.

Rick

[Rick Cooper]

my guess would be the black americans stationed at the airforce bases ?

I'm not sure there were many US G.I.s in France in late 60s , they had gone home or were in Vietnam.

I was in a small town in France , St Ettienne, in 68 and the record shops had loads of Stax ,Atlantic, Motown,etc releases and not a G.I in sight.

Soul music was very popular throughout Europe in the 60s, take a look at the DVDs of the Stax/Volt tour recorded in Paris and Sweden to see the locals struck dumb.

Rick

[Rom1]

Bonjour Romain!

Please keep me informed when you speak to Monsieur Petard. I would like to know who did what. I would also like to know who paid whom.

Lorraine

Bonjour Lorraine,

Merci pour le message (I love all of your records & productions)

I'll keep you informed if I have more infos from him...(but he's not a close friend and I very rarely meet him), but as I said my previous message, I am almost sure he was not in this project.

Romain

[lorchand]

"just the touch of your hand" is brilliant. Reading this thread made me dig it out for a listen.

eddie parker "but if you must go" might just be mj favourite record from detroit. I've never managed to find one though.

Dylan,

I was so shaken after listening to Just a Touch of your Hand, I couldn't hardly reply. I know I went crazy in the studio hearing this man sing the song (the same thing happen with Eddie Parker's, But If You Must Go), because it was such a good performance. What I know now is that Al could sing about 'love'. This song brings tears to my eyes now because I do know about love in every sense of the word. Not then. It was about the business. The talent. The songs. The deals. Folks like Al, Eddie, Sandra, and Sharon, knew about love and you could hear and sense it in their recordings. I could write about love, but they could feel and sing about it.

Lorraine

[lorchand]

Bonjour Lorraine,

Merci pour le message (I love all of your records & productions)

I'll keep you informed if I have more infos from him...(but he's not a close friend and I very rarely meet him), but as I said my previous message, I am almost sure he was not in this project.

Romain

Merci!

Lorraine

[lorchand]

I can't say for sure that Googa Mooga records are bootlegs but anyone who does needs to come up with evidence or shut up, innocent till proven guilty. From my dealings with Googa Mooga, and being the only person on here who has (see post 78),there is no reason to accuse them of being illegal bootlegers. As for not being eligible for playing out this would rule out every contemporary UK or outside US issue.

Not wishing to upset the living legend and my hero, Lorraine Chandler, it would not be the first time that the creative people involved in a record were not aware of all releases especially to an insignificant part of the world . Also sometimes people claim to have the ownership of a recording allowing them to lease it to someone outside the US are not the true owners. I had experience of this with William Bell and Brunswick over issuing Purple Haze in the UK.It can be a legal minefield.

Rick

Hey Rick,

Without the internet, bootlegging would still go unnoticed. Yes, I do get sad, only because it's too easy to get authorization and do it right. The publishers/writers only get so much and to get nothing is a drag. Also, when you call them out on it, there usually is no response of their innocence or even an explanation. There is no excuse today to clear up the yesterdays.

I call IL and Soussan my pimps because they have made more money off of me than anyone (that I know of). I'm trying to get my business straight for my heirs. Once I leave this earth, who are you gonna check with?

I enjoy being your hero, thank you.

Lorraine

[Roburt]

....... RE: Googa Mooga records being the 1st bootlegs, I'd have to say no to that.

However, I don't doubt that their 'US sourced releases' could have been put out without the US label owner's permission. Probably the guys who licensed the 1st Eddie Parker were sent copies of his other 'recent releases' by Jack. Jack hoping they would come back to license some of these additional tracks but perhaps they just went ahead & put them out anyway.

In Europe in the 60's (& early 70's), it was NOT UNCOMMON for a US recording to be dubbed off a mint copy of the US 45, a stamper made & UK / French / German label 45's run off (President / JayBoy did this most of the time I'm led to believe).

ALSO, it's my understanding that very little of the stuff released on the UK Sue label from its start up to the mid / late 60's was actually licensed from the US parent companies. The guy running Sue (& I can't bring his name to mind at present) just found copes of US 45's he liked (blues & soul tracks), copied them to tape, ran stampers off, pressed up Sue copies & distributed them to UK record shops.

So, bootleggers came later ........ but not everything that was done by European label owners in the 60's was legal & above board.