Dylan Posted March 10, 2012 Posted March 10, 2012 Tagged the copy on ebay yesterday to watch out of curiosity how much it will sell for. but who discovered the first rouser copy and which club did the track on either rouser or fairmount first get played ? am I right in thinking it was a dave raistrick discovery ?
Sean Hampsey Posted March 10, 2012 Posted March 10, 2012 Early - Mid 80's Adam Buchanan had the first copy, as I recall. Dont remember where he got it from. It was soon (a year or two) after it had become a big record on Fairmount. So we were all perplexed at the time when it appeared. I'd have said Cleethorpes Winter Gardens or Loughborough would have been the first Nighter he would have played it (on Rouser). But it was a Wigan & Clifton Hall Rotherham tune first. Sean
Dylan Posted March 10, 2012 Author Posted March 10, 2012 (edited) thanks sean Edited March 10, 2012 by dylan
Tony Smith Posted March 11, 2012 Posted March 11, 2012 Early - Mid 80's Adam Buchanan had the first copy, as I recall. Dont remember where he got it from. It was soon (a year or two) after it had become a big record on Fairmount. So we were all perplexed at the time when it appeared. I'd have said Cleethorpes Winter Gardens or Loughborough would have been the first Nighter he would have played it (on Rouser). But it was a Wigan & Clifton Hall Rotherham tune first. Sean Hi Sean, Adam's copy was Levines old copy, he told me the story of how he ended up with it, but it was a long time ago! Searling also had it same time as Ian but, only on Fairmount!
John Parker Posted March 11, 2012 Posted March 11, 2012 There was a very interesting thread on this record a couple of years ago There is a difference between the Rouser take and the Fairmount take .
Chalky Posted March 11, 2012 Posted March 11, 2012 The sax break missing from the Rouser take.... old topic at
John Parker Posted March 11, 2012 Posted March 11, 2012 The sax break missing from the Rouser take.... old topic at Dont think its missing Chalky...just attenuated
Chalky Posted March 11, 2012 Posted March 11, 2012 Dont think its missing Chalky...just attenuated I can't remember fully, I'd have to have a listen again.
Chalky Posted March 11, 2012 Posted March 11, 2012 There is a sax break John but it must last all of two or three seconds, the intro sounds a bit quicker too on what I've just listened too.
Theothertosspot Posted March 11, 2012 Posted March 11, 2012 Didn't Searling get his copy off Soul Sam along with Don Gardner and William Powell when Sam went all modern?
Tony Smith Posted March 11, 2012 Posted March 11, 2012 Didn't Searling get his copy off Soul Sam along with Don Gardner and William Powell when Sam went all modern? No, it wasn't part of that "deal", Richard had FB well before.
Tony Smith Posted March 11, 2012 Posted March 11, 2012 There is a sax break John but it must last all of two or three seconds, the intro sounds a bit quicker too on what I've just listened too. Yeh, to me sounds badly edited, no wonder I only remember Adam playing "I Want To Feel I'm wanted" and that side had a big surface mark on it
Soulman Posted March 11, 2012 Posted March 11, 2012 I was at a Fleet all-nighter (Peterborough), must have been about '78. I already had a copy of the Fairmount release at the time. A guy came up to me in the middle of the dancefloor having been pointed in my direction by a friend of mine who knew I collected. At the time I wasn't familiar with the Rouser release (you can't know everything can you?) and with it being a bit dark I turned it down. Can't remember the guys name but he about 5 foot 5, not tall and blond hair I think. What I can remember is the price. £20...twenty bloody quid. I think I must go through moments of being a tw*t and that was one of them. As a matter of interest, how many copies are there on Rouser. Think Tim Brown's still got one and there are two in Carlisle methinks. Who else? Steve
Dylan Posted March 11, 2012 Author Posted March 11, 2012 I was at a Fleet all-nighter (Peterborough), must have been about '78. I already had a copy of the Fairmount release at the time. A guy came up to me in the middle of the dancefloor having been pointed in my direction by a friend of mine who knew I collected. At the time I wasn't familiar with the Rouser release (you can't know everything can you?) and with it being a bit dark I turned it down. Can't remember the guys name but he about 5 foot 5, not tall and blond hair I think. What I can remember is the price. £20...twenty bloody quid. I think I must go through moments of being a tw*t and that was one of them. As a matter of interest, how many copies are there on Rouser. Think Tim Brown's still got one and there are two in Carlisle methinks. Who else? Steve i've seen it on one of honkys playlists as well.
John A Posted March 11, 2012 Posted March 11, 2012 The second known copy wound up in hertfordshire, Come on Pottsy, stand up and be counted mate!
Tony Smith Posted March 11, 2012 Posted March 11, 2012 I was at a Fleet all-nighter (Peterborough), must have been about '78. I already had a copy of the Fairmount release at the time. A guy came up to me in the middle of the dancefloor having been pointed in my direction by a friend of mine who knew I collected. At the time I wasn't familiar with the Rouser release (you can't know everything can you?) and with it being a bit dark I turned it down. Can't remember the guys name but he about 5 foot 5, not tall and blond hair I think. What I can remember is the price. £20...twenty bloody quid. I think I must go through moments of being a tw*t and that was one of them. As a matter of interest, how many copies are there on Rouser. Think Tim Brown's still got one and there are two in Carlisle methinks. Who else? Steve The Rouser copies are mounting up! I sold the Fairmount copy I got off Jim Wensiora for 350, early 90's, thought It'd peaked
Dave Pinch Posted March 11, 2012 Posted March 11, 2012 as soon as the sax break kicks in frankie shouts `yeh`, the fairmount copy builds from there but the rouser 45 is edited from that point cutting the rest of the sax break out.. spoils it imo 2
Guest Posted March 11, 2012 Posted March 11, 2012 Adams copy I thought as i try to remember ? being told by him at the fleet one night sure he said it came from an old girlfriend but it was a hell of a long time ago but it may have come from Levine ? turned down a Fairmount issue for £65 quid think it was at Huntingdon town hall allnighter how thoughs things stick in your mind !! Hi Sean, Adam's copy was Levines old copy, he told me the story of how he ended up with it, but it was a long time ago! Searling also had it same time as Ian but, only on Fairmount!
Dave Pinch Posted March 11, 2012 Posted March 11, 2012 think about it tho.....i know they look virtually the same but the fairmount stock is 20 times rarer than the demo
Guest taffy Posted March 11, 2012 Posted March 11, 2012 (edited) Mick Smith found a copy on Rouser in the states [Florida] early 70's think he sold it to Levine at the mecca. Edited March 11, 2012 by taffy
Dave Pinch Posted March 11, 2012 Posted March 11, 2012 i think mick smith still has one but its broke ..i think he framed it and it on a wall somewhere
Pete S Posted March 12, 2012 Posted March 12, 2012 Mick got it (on Rouser) from the Carolinas in 76/77, he bought it on spec having never heard it - cost 10 cents. he traded it to Soul Sam for Jimmy Burns on Erica.
Prophonics 2029 Posted March 12, 2012 Posted March 12, 2012 The sound file sounds a bit warmer than the fairmont copy still not the best recording buy him I have listened too.
Chalky Posted March 12, 2012 Posted March 12, 2012 Is the flip the same as the Fairmount copy? Memory says it is but can't check right now.
Dave Moore Posted March 12, 2012 Posted March 12, 2012 There's also at least one nice clean Rouser copy in Australia with Barry S. I had it in my mitts before Christmas. Nice. Regards, Dave
Mal C Posted March 13, 2012 Posted March 13, 2012 interested to see a signed copy on ebay; ages ago this was a single known copy, according to Tim Brown, I've deffo seen it for sale via John Manship's online auction in the last few years, is this that same copy or are there as you would think allot more copies in circulation? great track..... Mal.C.
snooky Posted March 13, 2012 Posted March 13, 2012 Butlers With Frankie Beverly "Because Of My Heart" (Rouser) Another 1 for sale on ebay....who much these going for? snooky
Pete S Posted March 13, 2012 Posted March 13, 2012 Butlers With Frankie Beverly "Because Of My Heart" (Rouser) Another 1 for sale on ebay....who much these going for? snooky
Guest turntableterra Posted March 14, 2012 Posted March 14, 2012 There's also at least one nice clean Rouser copy in Australia with Barry S. I had it in my mitts before Christmas. Nice. Regards, Dave cheers dave. may two soon. i wonder if thomas rouse is related to george from carlisle, he may get family discount LOL. i saw some one mention carlisle too, i wouldnt like to comment if anyone there has one, but one doesnt know what everyone has. my home town too. that aside, first played i dont know but the following information is fact, from this i would deduce the casino would be ONE of the first locations, year wise prob around 78/79, but as i said i cannot confirm that only the following. in june 1980 it was up for sale at the princely sum of 45 quid, by august it had gone up to 50 quid and by november it was offers..............you could also get a damon fox for 50 quid too. wierd, strange, call it what you wish ........but if you had two fabulettes "bigger they are" and three copies of spooky and sue " i got the need" or four copies of dean courtney on rca, you could have possibly swapped them for the damon or the frank.
Guest Posted March 14, 2012 Posted March 14, 2012 interested to see a signed copy on ebay; ages ago this was a single known copy, according to Tim Brown, I've deffo seen it for sale via John Manship's online auction in the last few years, is this that same copy or are there as you would think allot more copies in circulation? great track..... Mal.C. Single copy-? Bit like the herb ward hold on issue first copyT.B had ever seen in 25 years really - one turned up the week after on ebay ? one of the biggest dealers yes a rare 45 but a good sales pitch to get you interested wont be the last one or the rouser copy imo
Ernie Andrews Posted March 15, 2012 Posted March 15, 2012 Theres probably quite a few copies out there of anything unless you have provenance! thats why buying any big record is agamble as next week 10s if not hundreds can be found and trickled out!
Dylan Posted March 15, 2012 Author Posted March 15, 2012 Theres probably quite a few copies out there of anything unless you have provenance! thats why buying any big record is agamble as next week 10s if not hundreds can be found and trickled out! i'm not sure in what way you are using the word provenance here ?
Tony Smith Posted March 15, 2012 Posted March 15, 2012 Some of the rarest sounds known to the scene would've stayed just that if it wasn't for Ebay whether you like it or not! over the last few years we've had Sandy Golden, Two plus Two, William Powell, Lester Tipton, Magnetics, Topics, Twans, Frankie Bev, C.O.D.'s, Combinations, Junior McCant, Lee Jennings, most of the Shrine releases and others that may have just been binned or lost forever,there's a thought...
Ernie Andrews Posted March 15, 2012 Posted March 15, 2012 i'm not sure in what way you are using the word provenance here ? Piece of paper from the pressing plant saying how many were pressed Order form etc. Im just off the phone to Florence Kentucky to a guy who made a one off record in 1974 and we talked about how many copies were pressed and the procedure for it so their is paperwork that states how many were made- Provenance!
boba Posted March 16, 2012 Posted March 16, 2012 Piece of paper from the pressing plant saying how many were pressed Order form etc. Im just off the phone to Florence Kentucky to a guy who made a one off record in 1974 and we talked about how many copies were pressed and the procedure for it so their is paperwork that states how many were made- Provenance! Number of copies pressed really has little to do with how many copies are out there. Numero did a comp of stuff from the boddie pressing plant in ohio. There are orders for 1000 of certain records that were definitely pressed and that nobody has ever seen. There are other 1000 press copies that are 1-2 known copy records. There is this myth that for every super rare record the label owner pressed 50 of them or something like that, that's not true. If a record was not distributed (except a couple given to the group or something) and the backstock was thrown away, it becomes very rare. Even ones that the group sold at shows are often incredibly rare.
Dylan Posted March 16, 2012 Author Posted March 16, 2012 Piece of paper from the pressing plant saying how many were pressed Order form etc. Im just off the phone to Florence Kentucky to a guy who made a one off record in 1974 and we talked about how many copies were pressed and the procedure for it so their is paperwork that states how many were made- Provenance! provenance to me is some kind of documentations or evidence that something old and valuable is without doubt what it is claiming to be and not a fake. its nothing to do wioth the amount of examples of the item.
Ernie Andrews Posted March 16, 2012 Posted March 16, 2012 provenance to me is some kind of documentations or evidence that something old and valuable is without doubt what it is claiming to be and not a fake. its nothing to do wioth the amount of examples of the item. Disagree! Provenance for example could be a letter accompanying a photograph/letter/ item etc - It is evidence that backs up any action or behaviour! Provenance could be a document stating that A owns the house rather than B as an example link to definition:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provenance
Ernie Andrews Posted March 16, 2012 Posted March 16, 2012 Number of copies pressed really has little to do with how many copies are out there. Numero did a comp of stuff from the boddie pressing plant in ohio. There are orders for 1000 of certain records that were definitely pressed and that nobody has ever seen. There are other 1000 press copies that are 1-2 known copy records. There is this myth that for every super rare record the label owner pressed 50 of them or something like that, that's not true. If a record was not distributed (except a couple given to the group or something) and the backstock was thrown away, it becomes very rare. Even ones that the group sold at shows are often incredibly rare. I agree Bob but their are two sides to a sheet of paper and therefore the opposite could be the case 1000 pressed and 900 left in some Chicken shed! Thats what makes this scene so interesting and why the internet has really opened up the question of How many and therefore as I say "its a gamble"
boba Posted March 16, 2012 Posted March 16, 2012 Disagree! Provenance for example could be a letter accompanying a photograph/letter/ item etc - It is evidence that backs up any action or behaviour! Provenance could be a document stating that A owns the house rather than B as an example link to definition:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provenance According to the wikipedia article you linked, provenance means "the chronology of the ownership or location of a historical object." It doesn't mean generic evidence that backs up any action or behavior. Provenance on a record, for example, refers to the chain of ownership/location of it, from some point (possibly all the way back to production but not necessarily that far back) to today.
boba Posted March 16, 2012 Posted March 16, 2012 I agree Bob but their are two sides to a sheet of paper and therefore the opposite could be the case 1000 pressed and 900 left in some Chicken shed! Thats what makes this scene so interesting and why the internet has really opened up the question of How many and therefore as I say "its a gamble" I don't understand. Boddie was a pressing plant and numero had access to their paid invoices where customers were delivered 1000 45s, and they are 45s that no collector has seen. Other ones that were 1000 pressed were only 1 or 2 known copy records. My only point is knowing how many were pressed might be a clue to, but usually doesn't prove, rarity of a record.
Ernie Andrews Posted March 16, 2012 Posted March 16, 2012 I don't understand. Boddie was a pressing plant and numero had access to their paid invoices where customers were delivered 1000 45s, and they are 45s that no collector has seen. Other ones that were 1000 pressed were only 1 or 2 known copy records. My only point is knowing how many were pressed might be a clue to, but usually doesn't prove, rarity of a record. I totally agree BOB and on that basis as I said we dont know therefore it is a gamble!
Ernie Andrews Posted March 16, 2012 Posted March 16, 2012 According to the wikipedia article you linked, provenance means "the chronology of the ownership or location of a historical object." It doesn't mean generic evidence that backs up any action or behavior. Provenance on a record, for example, refers to the chain of ownership/location of it, from some point (possibly all the way back to production but not necessarily that far back) to today. This is the part I think refers to: In most fields, the primary purpose of provenance is to confirm or gather evidence as to the time, place, and "when appropriate "the person responsible for the creation, production, or discovery of the object. This will typically be accomplished by tracing the whole history of the object up to the present. Comparative techniques, expert opinions, and the results of scientific tests may also be used to these ends, but establishing provenance is essentially a matter of documentation. WE do this in records to establish the difference between an original and a bootleg but in order to do this we must find the origins because if we find an invoice that say 200 were pressed but the evidence shows that 1000 copies have been sold in the last year we may assume that the record could have been booted because the provenance tells us that originally only 200 were pressed say in 1972- However as you so rightly point out Bob the invoice could say 200 when infact they pressed 500 for other reasons and thats why I still say its a gamble spending large amounts of money on a record. ATB Steve
NEV Posted March 16, 2012 Posted March 16, 2012 Finished US $4,173.00 By someone with low amount of ebay feedbacks and only one bid ...sniper bid Not bad for a vg- copy eh
charliew Posted March 16, 2012 Posted March 16, 2012 sure i sold my copy to Keith williams mid 90ts for a song, just about fell of the settee when i seen the $4,173,00 lol
Chalky Posted March 17, 2012 Posted March 17, 2012 By someone with low amount of ebay feedbacks and only one bid ...sniper bid Not bad for a vg- copy eh That vg- will be a UK excellent Nev To be fair it does sound pretty good when listening to the sound files, not much noise at the start at all.
Soulman Posted March 17, 2012 Posted March 17, 2012 I've just thought of where another copy is. Don't know why this didn't spring to mind before...must be old age creeping in. I spoke to Frank about 3 years ago for a couple of reasons 1. An interview for Manifesto and 2. With a view to him and the two remaining Butlers (now part of Maze) coming over to Prestatyn. From my side it was pretty much in the bag but from the Prestatyn promoters it was a no go. Anyway, he said he had copies of all of his old recordings of which one was the Rouser release. I remember now as I told him the story (see post number 13 of this thread) of how I nearly had it. Anybody got any memory pills and have we reached a conclusion as to posiibly how many there are? Steve
Andy Rix Posted March 17, 2012 Posted March 17, 2012 Steve I didn't see the Manifesto article .... did he explain the reasons for the releases on Rouser & Fairmount.. which came first etc or what the deal was As I mentioned in a previous thread Bobby Allen told me Frank's Uncle was in the El Corols and I wondered if that was the link to Tommy Rouse Andy
Soulman Posted March 17, 2012 Posted March 17, 2012 Hi Andy, Not all interviews made it into the magazine for whatever reason... this was one of them along with Ashford and Simpson et al. I think the reason was simply that I may have been trying to tie it in with a visit to the UK which, unfortunately, didn't happen. I need to find the tape and have another listen as he did mention something about the two releases and how they came about but because I didn't do anything more with the interview it got shelved and kinda wiped from my memory. I think maybe "Bug" Williams would have been able to answer more of the questions but he's no longer with us, although he had some 45's too and was very much a part of the Butlers but not in the line-up. Thats about all I can tellyou without listening to the tape again. I don't know if Howard (Frank) would part with the 45's as I always made it a rule never to ask for copies. Only twice have I bought something from an artists who I have spoken to. Philip Mitchell and his Cory Blake 45 and Judy Street's What, both of which I paid for Best Steve
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