Cleaning With Glue Pt. 2

[KevH]

Yea it's not hard (yet)

And there you go again..oohh missus.!!

[p0stscript]

yes all this talk of latex, tacky bonding and getting hard did make me wonder

[Pete Eccles]

Pete, although I feel we're bonding now, it's all getting a bit tacky isn't it? My worry is that if we become to attached to this topic we're gonna get a pasting from the mods.

But we haven't even scratched the surface yet,

[Pete Eccles]

Not caught up with all the thread,but are you still talking about Bob's Glue Theory?

There you go again Kev, the 'suspended in mid air' quote was taken directly from Godz's comment, wayward credit again

[KevH]

Anyone know how to seperate a glued forefinger and thumb?

Edited March 6, 2012 by KevH

[Amsterdam Russ]

Alternatively you could just place them on cardboard to apply the glue then stick 'em over the neck of bottles. (red wine in my case). That way you can clean off any glue that's dripped onto the edge with a damp cloth and if there's further...errr.. drippage, there's nothing for it to stick to as it's suspended in mid air.

For small hole UK 45s I have a specially adapted wine bottle with a bit of doweling stuck through the cork and a 45rpm spider adaptor cunningly fixed half way up. Genius eh?

I use a chopstick.

[boba]

OK, I know the suspense is killing everybody, but I finally pulled the glue off the records:

It was sort of difficult to get the glue off and the first record has glue fingerprints on the back that I have to clean off. Anyways, I am going to clean the records before playing them because they are kind of fingerprinted and ugly now. I'm really excited to hear these but I have to take it slow to make sure I get the best sound possible, don't want to rush in and play these fingerprinted records with glue flakes on them.

Actually, I don't think the glue will have worked as I'm very good at cleaning the records, which I did pre-glue, but I think there's a chance it might, especially on the shorter record. Will definitely report back!

[boba]

OK, they are cleaned and have been played. I think it did reduce the crackle on the second record, not sure if it helped on the first one. I will make recordings and post mp3 links and waveforms.

I am going to do the glue one more time on these records because I feel that I'm finally figuring out my technique and that I can apply it better. I still don't understand why the second record is crackly as there's just scuffs and it's not pressed at a low volume like the first one. I do see some small edge of heat damage, but it's not making a heat damage noise, it's just sort of crackly.

[p0stscript]

look forward to you finished technique, I now have glue at the ready

[Shinehead]

Stick By Me Baby The Salvadores could be the theme tune for this topic.

[Tricky]

7 days is too long (to clean your records) - Chuck Woodglue

[boba]

OK, here are my (unfortunate) results.

For the mighty ryders record, it made very little difference after my initial thorough cleaning (which was my starting point). Here is a picture of all the stages, in order:

as you can see, it looks like sometimes the crackles disappear a little or get lower, but not much. Here is the audio so you can listen:

1. ryders record after my regular thorough cleaning:

https://www.divshare....ad/16975866-098

2. ryders record after doing a bunch more stuff to it but not gluing

https://www.divshare....ad/16975871-11a

3. ryders record after first gluing

https://www.divshare....ad/16975847-d22

4. ryders record after second gluing

https://www.divshare....ad/16975852-9b7

Basically, the changes are almost indistinguishable. The one small change I notice is that all the crackles are still there but many are slightly quieter. But after I picked off the glue, I also gave it a thorough cleaning, so it might have been my repeated cleanings, and not the glue at all, that made the very slight changes. Additionally, now the other side of the record has some weird marks on it from me trying to get the spillover off of it.

I was hoping the new days record would work much better, given that it was shorter (so it was not pressed at a low volume) and given that it just looked scuffed and not scratched. Here is the record before and after gluing:

Here is audio after my initial thorough clean but before gluing:

https://www.divshare....ad/16975817-064

Here is audio after my glue and re-cleaning

https://www.divshare....ad/16975840-c1c

Basically it made almost no difference (maybe some of the crackles are a little quieter).

My personal conclusion is that if you know how to clean a record very well, gluing won't make any real difference, even in cases where the record is still playing noisy, for no discernible reason.

There is one case where the record might be noisy that a regular cleaning won't fix -- a wet played record that has dried will leave sludge crusted at the bottom of the grooves that isn't cleanable with a regular cleaning. There will just be a loud hiss when playing the vinyl, even though it's not apparent what's causing it. I did not test the case whether gluing would pull the sludge out of a wet-played record. However, I already have my own way of fixing this problem so I personally wouldn't use glue in that case either.

Before doing all these comparisons on the computer, I thought the gluing had made a big difference on the second record. I wanted to try gluing it again, working more on my technique, trying to get the glue as embedded in the grooves as possible. So I went to the pharmacy and went toothbrush shopping. I bought several different toothbrushes. The most promising one is this old man looking thing that has a super long head:

Apparently it some old type of toothbrush that is actually called a "Dobson Large Head" toothbrush. I thought it would cover the record better and let me spread the glue in less time (before it dried). I was excited to try the Dobson Large Head toothbrush on the second record, as I thought the initial gluing helped some and that I could get it even cleaner with better technique. Unfortunately, the computer comparison showed little difference from the first gluing so it is not worth going further (and ruining some rare and expensive records btw).

I guess it's possible I could have gotten something out of it with better technique but it seems unlikely. Also, I'm not saying you shouldn't use the glue, it probably will get a lot of dirt off that was there if you are not able to as thoroughly clean the record. But it's slow (you have to wait for the glue to dry), risky (you can get glue on the label, the other side, that is difficult to clean) so if you have a better cleaning technique you should rely on that first.

[KevH]

I was going to recommend the Dobson Large Head .Back to Fairy Liquid and a soft cloth Bob?

[Guest MrC]

latex, large head, fairy liquid, soft cloths, matches, where is this thread gonna end up, somewhere in the .xxx domain is my guess!

[Amsterdam Russ]

I guess it's possible I could have gotten something out of it with better technique but it seems unlikely. Also, I'm not saying you shouldn't use the glue, it probably will get a lot of dirt off that was there if you are not able to as thoroughly clean the record. But it's slow (you have to wait for the glue to dry), risky (you can get glue on the label, the other side, that is difficult to clean) so if you have a better cleaning technique you should rely on that first.

Well, that's a real shame. The results I've had with PVA/wood glue have been very impressive overall and I'll continue to use it. Also, not getting glue on the labels or on the other side of the record is childsplay as far as I'm concerned. Maybe I've just had more practice.

Perhaps the glue we have over here is just that much better for this purpose than the glue you have over there, regardless of their apparent similarities. Wood glue should be wood glue, but based on your poor results, something somewhere is certainly different.

[Swifty]

Bob , what do you usually clean your records with ?

Swifty

p.s. may I commend you on your efforts and reports , you may be in the Queens New Years Honours list for services to used Records and be awarded the RPM !!

Edited March 7, 2012 by SWIFTY

[Guest allnightandy]

Bob , what do you usually clean your records with ?

Swifty

p.s. may I commend you on your efforts and reports , you may be in the Queens New Years Honours list for services to used Records and be awarded the RPM !!

Or more likely the PVA !

[Guest allnightandy]

" I only had the elmers glue-all (which is not the yellow wood glue that was recommended to me in the previous thread)."

Just this one sentence says it all "Doomed to fail"

it did exactly what the name say's "It glued it all !"

what happened to : Always follow the instructions , use only as directed , if your not sure ask a competent person

the guy's on the video clips tell you what glue to use , so why use something different ? wait until you have the proper glue

then put polythene on your turntable , and never use a record you value to test this on !

It's like saying

"Oh i had run out of shampoo so i washed my hair in sulphuric acid because i had some "

[Guest Martin Coleman]

I tried the glue technique last weekend (Elmers applied with the right forefinger if you're interested). It didn't work for me either.

However, with a few refinements, I reckon significant improvements could be made:

- Always apply the glue clockwise on the "A" side and counterclockwise on the "B" side. Unless you live in the southern hemisphere where, obviously, the earth's rotation dictates that you do things the other way around.

- Always apply the glue on clear days. Clear days are associated with anticyclones, and the high pressure of these weather systems forces the glue deeper into the grooves.

- Try to synchronize glue removal with "spring" tides. When the sun and the moon line up with the earth there is an increased gravitational pull from these planets which helps the glue remove debris.

- Don't forget to take advantage of the clocks going forward. If you time things correctly you'll get an extra hour of adhesion.

Any other suggestions on how we can perfect the technique?

[boba]

" I only had the elmers glue-all (which is not the yellow wood glue that was recommended to me in the previous thread)."

Just this one sentence says it all "Doomed to fail"

it did exactly what the name say's "It glued it all !"

what happened to : Always follow the instructions , use only as directed , if your not sure ask a competent person

the guy's on the video clips tell you what glue to use , so why use something different ? wait until you have the proper glue

then put polythene on your turntable , and never use a record you value to test this on !

It's like saying

"Oh i had run out of shampoo so i washed my hair in sulphuric acid because i had some "

I did use the right glue, white PVA glue. Someone else even posted that the yellow "Titebond II' recommended in the video destroyed his record. Try to keep up.

I would be interested in the before / after pics comparing shampoo to sulfuric acid though.

[boba]

Well, that's a real shame. The results I've had with PVA/wood glue have been very impressive overall and I'll continue to use it. Also, not getting glue on the labels or on the other side of the record is childsplay as far as I'm concerned. Maybe I've just had more practice.

Perhaps the glue we have over here is just that much better for this purpose than the glue you have over there, regardless of their apparent similarities. Wood glue should be wood glue, but based on your poor results, something somewhere is certainly different.

I bet you I can get your post-glue records cleaner than the glue got them

[Mick Reed]

OK, here are my (unfortunate) results.

For the mighty ryders record, it made very little difference after my initial thorough cleaning (which was my starting point). Here is a picture of all the stages, in order:

as you can see, it looks like sometimes the crackles disappear a little or get lower, but not much. Here is the audio so you can listen:

1. ryders record after my regular thorough cleaning:

https://www.divshare....ad/16975866-098

2. ryders record after doing a bunch more stuff to it but not gluing

https://www.divshare....ad/16975871-11a

3. ryders record after first gluing

https://www.divshare....ad/16975847-d22

4. ryders record after second gluing

https://www.divshare....ad/16975852-9b7

Basically, the changes are almost indistinguishable. The one small change I notice is that all the crackles are still there but many are slightly quieter. But after I picked off the glue, I also gave it a thorough cleaning, so it might have been my repeated cleanings, and not the glue at all, that made the very slight changes. Additionally, now the other side of the record has some weird marks on it from me trying to get the spillover off of it.

I was hoping the new days record would work much better, given that it was shorter (so it was not pressed at a low volume) and given that it just looked scuffed and not scratched. Here is the record before and after gluing:

Here is audio after my initial thorough clean but before gluing:

https://www.divshare....ad/16975817-064

Here is audio after my glue and re-cleaning

https://www.divshare....ad/16975840-c1c

Basically it made almost no difference (maybe some of the crackles are a little quieter).

My personal conclusion is that if you know how to clean a record very well, gluing won't make any real difference, even in cases where the record is still playing noisy, for no discernible reason.

There is one case where the record might be noisy that a regular cleaning won't fix -- a wet played record that has dried will leave sludge crusted at the bottom of the grooves that isn't cleanable with a regular cleaning. There will just be a loud hiss when playing the vinyl, even though it's not apparent what's causing it. I did not test the case whether gluing would pull the sludge out of a wet-played record. However, I already have my own way of fixing this problem so I personally wouldn't use glue in that case either.

Before doing all these comparisons on the computer, I thought the gluing had made a big difference on the second record. I wanted to try gluing it again, working more on my technique, trying to get the glue as embedded in the grooves as possible. So I went to the pharmacy and went toothbrush shopping. I bought several different toothbrushes. The most promising one is this old man looking thing that has a super long head:

Apparently it some old type of toothbrush that is actually called a "Dobson Large Head" toothbrush. I thought it would cover the record better and let me spread the glue in less time (before it dried). I was excited to try the Dobson Large Head toothbrush on the second record, as I thought the initial gluing helped some and that I could get it even cleaner with better technique. Unfortunately, the computer comparison showed little difference from the first gluing so it is not worth going further (and ruining some rare and expensive records btw).

I guess it's possible I could have gotten something out of it with better technique but it seems unlikely. Also, I'm not saying you shouldn't use the glue, it probably will get a lot of dirt off that was there if you are not able to as thoroughly clean the record. But it's slow (you have to wait for the glue to dry), risky (you can get glue on the label, the other side, that is difficult to clean) so if you have a better cleaning technique you should rely on that first.

Boba that sounds like static to me,give that cleaner a try it realy does work honest.Sure there will be somewhere in the states were yu can buy it.Mick

https://uk.rs-online....7633D4E4F4E4526

Edited March 8, 2012 by Mick Reed

[Amsterdam Russ]

I bet you I can get your post-glue records cleaner than the glue got them

No reason to doubt it.

I bet that if I were to use other cleaning methods post-glue treatment, I could improve them further. And if I cleaned them again after that, they'd be cleaner still...

It's not a competition - or is that what you're looking for? As far as I'm concerned, the glue treatment is just one of a variety of methods that can be used to clean records. Sometimes I use glue, sometimes I don't. Everyone has their own preferred methods for restoring records depending on the nature of the problem. I'm happy to give anything a try and have even attempted Pete's Smith's technique of ironing warped 45s (I think it was Pete who mentioned this on here some months back).

Can't say that was successful, but maybe I didn't strike whilst the iron was hot enough! The next thing I want to try is putting warped records inbetween two sheets of glass and baking them. Anyway, I'm wandering off topic...

It's great that you've given the glue method a try and it's been a lot of fun reading. Cheers!

[boba]

I wasn't trying to have a competition, I was hoping to get one new technique that would get some record even cleaner when my existing techniques fail. if I get desperate on a record in the future I still might try it and I will report back if it works, it might work on some special case. My existing cleaning techniques came from cleaning 1000s of records and I definitely screwed up some records in the process and got better over time. I like it when people aren't as good at cleaning not because it's a competition but because it gives me an edge when bidding on ebay if there's an audio clip. If you can recognize the sound of noise in the soundclips and recognize whether it's something you can probably clean (versus, for example, heat damage or deep scratches) you can get a playable record for cheaper.

The one piece of free advice I keep giving people is to always use a lint-free cloth, like the microfiber ones you can get at an auto supply store. I don't want anyone to damage their records irreversably in their cleaning process.

As a side note, have you ever used glue on a wet-played record and did it fix it?

I definitely am never going to experiment with unwarping (I always had planned to) -- I know some experts at it and it's not even consistent for them. I've sent them some records and had some much better and a couple others rendered unplayable (when they just needed extra tracking force before). If I need a record dewarped in the future I'm going to send it to a record store that has an actual dewarping machine. Apparently not super effective but at the same time, much safer I think. I think there's also a few different model of dewarping machines.

If you want to try dewarping, you could buy this thing instead of trying to get your technique from scratch:

https://www.vinylflat.com/index.html

I'm pretty good at fixing skips, but not as good as some people I know who actually use a jewelers loupe and a needle to target the exact spot and recarve the groove correctly. I might experiment with that more in the future.

[boba]

Boba that sounds like static to me,give that cleaner a try it realy does work honest.Sure there will be somewhere in the states were yu can buy it.Mick

https://uk.rs-online....7633D4E4F4E4526

Thanks a lot, I don't think it's static (it's been covered in so many fluids and even glue at this point) but I'm always willing to try a different cleaning agent. Maybe that will fix these specific records. I will try to buy one and report back.

[boba]

Thanks a lot, I don't think it's static (it's been covered in so many fluids and even glue at this point) but I'm always willing to try a different cleaning agent. Maybe that will fix these specific records. I will try to buy one and report back.

just purchased some anti-static foam cleaner, i will see what happens

[Amsterdam Russ]

I like it when people aren't as good at cleaning not because it's a competition but because it gives me an edge when bidding on ebay if there's an audio clip. If you can recognize the sound of noise in the soundclips and recognize whether it's something you can probably clean (versus, for example, heat damage or deep scratches) you can get a playable record for cheaper.

Yup... you're not alone in this...

[boba]

Russell, are you going to buy that vinyl flattener thing? I'd be interested in knowing how it works out.

I think it said on the page somewhere not to use it on styrene though.