boba Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 so yesterday I cleaned a 45 and it still played extremely crackly, despite not really being scratched up very much. The main reason was because it was almost 5 minutes long, which means it was pressed at a lower volume making the crackles overwhelm the music. However, it still looked clean enough to me that it should have been playing better. I decided to try the glue thing. I know this is not an ideal situation because it's probably scratches and the pressing and not dirt that's making it sound bad, but I can clean a 45 well enough that it's rare that it plays worse than it looks... so this is one of the best opportunities I could come up with I made a recording of the record after I cleaned it but before applying any glue. I only had the elmers glue-all (which is not the yellow wood glue that was recommended to me in the previous thread). I put the record on my turntable and squeezed the glue on, moving it from the inner deadwax to the outside slowly as it rotated. I then used a credit card to spread the glue all over the record and into the grooves. I couldn't keep the glue from going over the edge of the record but fortunately it didn't go farther into the deadwax and get to the label. I also found it was hard to apply the glue evenly, even if I put more glue on the record, so it clearly was thicker in some places than others (and you could see the black of the vinyl coming through some places but not othes). This is what it looked like last night after applying the glue: today the 45 is glued to the turntable mat, I have not tried to remove it or the glue from the record yet. What is annoying is that some of the drips of glue that are on the mat don't come off easily, I hope I can get the glue off the record. I'm just about to do try to remove the glue, will report back. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Mace Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 so yesterday I cleaned a 45 and it still played extremely crackly, despite not really being scratched up very much. The main reason was because it was almost 5 minutes long, which means it was pressed at a lower volume making the crackles overwhelm the music. However, it still looked clean enough to me that it should have been playing better. I decided to try the glue thing. I know this is not an ideal situation because it's probably scratches and the pressing and not dirt that's making it sound bad, but I can clean a 45 well enough that it's rare that it plays worse than it looks... so this is one of the best opportunities I could come up with I made a recording of the record after I cleaned it but before applying any glue. I only had the elmers glue-all (which is not the yellow wood glue that was recommended to me in the previous thread). I put the record on my turntable and squeezed the glue on, moving it from the inner deadwax to the outside slowly as it rotated. I then used a credit card to spread the glue all over the record and into the grooves. I couldn't keep the glue from going over the edge of the record but fortunately it didn't go farther into the deadwax and get to the label. I also found it was hard to apply the glue evenly, even if I put more glue on the record, so it clearly was thicker in some places than others (and you could see the black of the vinyl coming through some places but not othes). This is what it looked like last night after applying the glue: today the 45 is glued to the turntable mat, I have not tried to remove it or the glue from the record yet. What is annoying is that some of the drips of glue that are on the mat don't come off easily, I hope I can get the glue off the record. I'm just about to do try to remove the glue, will report back. Bob, why on earth did you do it on the turntable? You should have just placed the 45 on top of an old newspaper or something so that any drips, or residue spilling over the outer edge of the record just landed on the newspaper etc 1 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest allnightandy Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 (edited) A piece of polythene on the turntable would have solved the problem ! like this guy ! Edited March 4, 2012 by allnightandy Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
boba Posted March 4, 2012 Author Share Posted March 4, 2012 I didn't anticipate the spill over the side. Anyways, I managed to get the record off the turntable, I had to run a knife along the edges of the record. Now I have a bad problem that I didn't anticipate. Lifting up the record revealed a lot of undried glue on the opposite side of the record and on the plastic mat. I tried to wipe it off the other side of the record but that probably made it much worse because now there's a smaller amount of glue in the grooves on that side, not even connected in one big piece. So I may have fixed the side I wanted to fix but may have permanently screwed up the flip, I have to see what I can do. Right now I'm waiting for it to dry. I also have problems cleaning the plastic mat. After the other side dries, I at least will be able to play the side I intended to clean and see what happens. Then I will deal with the messed up other side. Newspaper or plastic might have prevented the problem of cleaning the plastic mat but it wouldn't have prevented the worse problem of cleaning the flip of the record. The one lesson I learned so far is to try to avoid spillover. I don't know if that's possible though. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
boba Posted March 5, 2012 Author Share Posted March 5, 2012 now I have to figure out how to clean the messed up a-side that has glue embedded in the grooves. I think I can clean it but it will take a lot of scrubbing. I played the side I intentionally glued and removed and it sounds about the same, I will record it and compare to the previous recording to see if it helps at all. Now that I'm experimenting on this record, I might as well try a few other things and see if they make any difference and compare recordings. I think newspaper would have been a very bad idea, it would have ended up glueing the newspaper to the bottom of the record. I should have used a wet cloth to wipe off the undried glue this morning instead of just a cloth, I might have gotten the glue out instead of getting the top layer of glue out, leaving it embedded in the groove. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Ted Massey Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Get a professional in Bob and he can make you some kitchen units or record shelves at the same time Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Pierstomper Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 I think i`ll stick to a mild vinegar and water solution as always, the glue system sounds unreliable to me. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
boba Posted March 5, 2012 Author Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) Get a professional in Bob and he can make you some kitchen units or record shelves at the same time The ultimate result, btw, is that I recorded the unglued track and it's almost exactly the same as the pre-glue track. I can post mp3s and pics of the waveform. I decided that (even though it's pointless since I'm pretty sure it's not dirt but scratches causing the nosie) I am going to try several things and re-record at each step. Next step is the ultrasonic cleaner, I'm going to use some water mixed with isopropyl alcohol in it I scrubbed off the glue on the side I wasn't trying to glue so there's nothing visible, but it does play worse now which sucks. Edited March 5, 2012 by boba Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
boba Posted March 5, 2012 Author Share Posted March 5, 2012 also, i think i'll try the glue one more time (not on this record) but use a toothbrush to push the glue into the grooves. I think I could avoid the spillover and get the glue deeper into the grooves. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Mace Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 also, i think i'll try the glue one more time (not on this record) but use a toothbrush to push the glue into the grooves. I think I could avoid the spillover and get the glue deeper into the grooves. Did the glue seperate easily in one piece on the side you intended to glue? Was there any sign of any dirt, particles etc embedded in the underside of the dried glue you removed? This is riveting stuff ! 1 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
pikeys dog Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Did the glue seperate easily in one piece on the side you intended to glue? Was there any sign of any dirt, particles etc embedded in the underside of the dried glue you removed? This is riveting stuff ! Rivets are no good for cleaning, they'll leave big holes. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Popular Post Mace Posted March 5, 2012 Popular Post Share Posted March 5, 2012 Rivets are no good for cleaning, they'll leave big holes. Well that's of no consequence in this issue cus it sound like the record in question is fcuked anyway. As is the record deck, shortly followed by Bobs toothbrush by the sounds of things! 4 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
KevH Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) What sort of toothbrush you using Bob? Edited March 5, 2012 by KevH 1 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Popular Post Mace Posted March 5, 2012 Popular Post Share Posted March 5, 2012 What sort of toothbrush you using Bob? Alternatively, you could purchase the strongest, most potent glue on the market. Fill a small bag, and inhale fumes for 20 minutes. Record will then sound absolutely fine, and you won't give a fcuk about the ruined deck ! 5 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
boba Posted March 5, 2012 Author Share Posted March 5, 2012 Did the glue seperate easily in one piece on the side you intended to glue? Was there any sign of any dirt, particles etc embedded in the underside of the dried glue you removed? This is riveting stuff ! yes, I did peel it off in one piece but I threw it away so I can't take a picture of it. When you see those glue videos you do see the dirt and stuff on it. I already cleaned it really well before the glue so I didn't see anything on the peeled off layer. But I was trying to see if the glue could make a little bit more difference. I think that my cleaning techniques are the best already and glue won't help but it would be cool to be proven wrong in some cases. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
boba Posted March 5, 2012 Author Share Posted March 5, 2012 OK because I'm stupid and obsessive, I am going to do the ultrasonic cleaner now even though I have to do something else and go to sleep. My friend swears by it and I never got it to do anything at all. I'm going to use a mix of water and then pour in some 91% isopropyl alcohol. I'm sure it will do nothing but maybe it will magically clean the other side that i didn't intend to touch. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Jumpinjoan Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 I actually had a record cleaner that was similar to wood glue, honest. You spread it on, let it dry and then it lifted off in one sheet with all the dirt and grime with it. Didn't work very well. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest mellytee Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 I missed all the technical details but why wood glue? Wouldn't craft glue/pva work just as well and less messy? Always comes off in a 'sheet' and any residue -blobs of glue also easy to lift and peel off - I assume its working on a kind of face mask principle in muck removal? Just a thought and don't sue me if it doesn't work!!! Good luck mad people!! Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Amsterdam Russ Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Pva/craft and wood glue are one and the same thing. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
boba Posted March 5, 2012 Author Share Posted March 5, 2012 Pva/craft and wood glue are one and the same thing. Although it's almost the same, the ultrasonic clean seems to have made a slight difference. I have a few more things I haven't tried that I will try tomorrow, then I can post mp3 links if people care but they all sound pretty close. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
boba Posted March 5, 2012 Author Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) as a side note, this record (the slow side I'm trying to get to play better) is awesome, deep spiritual sounding harmony. I always considered this group just an earth wind and fire copy group but the closest EWF thing I can think of is "keep your head to the sky" and I like this track better. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RXEftIWZQU Edited March 5, 2012 by boba Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Ted Massey Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 shouldnt that read Spread the Glue Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest SteveJohnston Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) Bob I thought Pete Smith had the monopoly on this kind of activity! I started to read this & thought I had slept though a full month!!! Sure the calendar was going to say April 1st, You aren't half cheering me up for a Monday Bob thanks mate. What sort of toothbrush you using Bob? :lol: Steve J Edited March 5, 2012 by SteveJohnston Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Blake H Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Best laugh on Soul source for ages BH Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
boba Posted March 5, 2012 Author Share Posted March 5, 2012 Best laugh on Soul source for ages BH you mean because I'm insane and obsessive or is there something I'm missing here? I don't understand all the "what toothbrush are you using" questions, is that a reference to something? Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Jasonofa Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 I always liked the "Mighty Ryeders" side as well, good 2-sider. I've done the glue thing before to great results, you can see so much dirt on the peeled glue. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
boba Posted March 5, 2012 Author Share Posted March 5, 2012 I've done the glue thing before to great results, you can see so much dirt on the peeled glue. not after my non-glue cleaning... Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Jasonofa Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 I guess the only times I've used it are on records that looked like they should play better than they did, i.e. not that scratched up but played with a lot of noise, worked wonders for me a few times. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Mace Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 I don't understand all the "what toothbrush are you using" questions, is that a reference to something? British humour Bob, more commonly found in Northern England where we thrive on being sarcastic at other peoples misfortunes Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Col Wolfe Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Pva/craft and wood glue are one and the same thing. some of the wood glue products will trash records - too sticky and will end up ruining the record - I know from experience the PVA glue you can get from hobby shops is the best I've used pretty sure I used to eat this stuff by the gallon when I was about 6 1 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Amsterdam Russ Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 some of the wood glue products will trash records - too sticky and will end up ruining the record - I know from experience the PVA glue you can get from hobby shops is the best I've used pretty sure I used to eat this stuff by the gallon when I was about 6 Not sure if you saw this thread or not... Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Sebastian Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Totally off-topic, I know... but if anyone has got the other Mighty Ryeders 45 on Sun-Glo for sale, please PM me. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Col Wolfe Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Not sure if you saw this thread or not... good stuff oddly enough, one of the youtube clips has a guy using Titebond II Wood Glue and gets good results. This is one of the makes of wood glue I tried and it totally ruined a test 12" and 7". maybe the ingredients differs between UK and US but I would recommend people keep away from this make. Unless you're doing some woodwork, obviously. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
boba Posted March 6, 2012 Author Share Posted March 6, 2012 ok, here are the lastest results of my obsession with cleaning this 45. The wave files are ordered in the order of cleaning. Basically the two ultrasonic cleanings I did did nothing. It looks like the initial glue application reduced the crackle and one new thing I did reduced crackle some more. Tonight I am going to try applying the same glue with a toothbrush and see if I can get it cleaner and avoid spillover. I still have glue stuck on my plastic turntable mat which is annoying. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
The Yank Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Let us know what kind of toothbrush you use. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
boba Posted March 6, 2012 Author Share Posted March 6, 2012 Let us know what kind of toothbrush you use. now it's pretty clear I need to repeat the glue process with at least 6 types of toothbrushes to see if the brush makes a difference 1 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
The Yank Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 You might want to finish it off with a mouthwash rinse for that minty fresh clean and maybe use some floss to remove the gunk around the center hole and the outer edge. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
boba Posted March 6, 2012 Author Share Posted March 6, 2012 i challenge anyone here to a record clean-off 1 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
boba Posted March 6, 2012 Author Share Posted March 6, 2012 Also, try not to get excited everyone, but just today I got a record that just looks a little scuffy and which I used my regular cleaning on it and it still plays noisy. And the record is not 5 minutes long or pressed at a low volume. So now I have a test record where all the noise probably isn't caused by scratches. If I manage to glue (with a toothbrush) the mighty ryeders 45 without spillover I will also do this one. This is so exciting! Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
p0stscript Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Also, try not to get excited everyone, but just today I got a record that just looks a little scuffy and which I used my regular cleaning on it and it still plays noisy. And the record is not 5 minutes long or pressed at a low volume. So now I have a test record where all the noise probably isn't caused by scratches. If I manage to glue (with a toothbrush) the mighty ryeders 45 without spillover I will also do this one. This is so exciting! I wait with bated breath Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Tony A Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 (edited) now it's pretty clear I need to repeat the glue process with at least 6 types of toothbrushes to see if the brush makes a difference Spread the glue onto the disc with a childrens paintbrush or even a half inch decorators brush. That'll push it into the grooves. Edited March 6, 2012 by Tony A 1 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Amsterdam Russ Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 I didn't anticipate the spill over the side. Bob, like you, I had problems with spill-over the first couple of times I tried the glue treatment. However, it is easily avoided. I used an old credit card (cut in half lengthways) to spread the glue evenly over the surface and work from the inside out. I try to work the glue to as close to the edge as possible, but don't attempt to get it perfect. There's no need to. Having said that, if you do use a plastic card to drag the glue a tiny amount past the edge, you should notice that its viscosity pulls it back and prevents it from dripping over. If glue dripping over the edge seems to be almost unavoidable, it may because you're using too much of the stuff, particularly around the outer edge. Another consideration is the temperature of the room in which you're storing and applying the glue. The glue will become slightly thinner/runnier in warm conditions. Ideally, you want to keep the glue stored somewhere cool and bring it out only when needed. This way it will keep its viscosity. When applying the glue, I have 45s resting on a piece of card, usually one of these you get when people pack records properly when mailing them to you. This is easy to rotate by hand, and is also a conveniently manageable size if you need to move the glue-covered discs somewhere safe to dry. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Trev Thomas Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Bob I thought Pete Smith had the monopoly on this kind of activity! I started to read this & thought I had slept though a full month!!! Sure the calendar was going to say April 1st, You aren't half cheering me up for a Monday Bob thanks mate. What sort of toothbrush you using Bob? :lol: Steve J pete doesn't mess about with pva / wood glue. he sticks records to his hands with super glue Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
boba Posted March 6, 2012 Author Share Posted March 6, 2012 (edited) ok, so now I'm done with the exciting second glue application. I put down two pieces of 8x10 paper perpendicular to each other on the turntable (covering up pretty much the whole mat), put the adapter on top of them, and put the mighty ryeders record on top. I started the turntable rotating at 45, started applying the glue up and down the grooves. First it was going pretty smooth, I didn't get any near the inner deadwax or spilling over the edge. I then put the toothbrush down on the grooves. It made lots of little lines in the grooves and it became clear that I couldn't leave it it like that because the glue wouldn't be one contiguous sheet. I started applying more glue and moving the brush up and down at the same time and it wasn't making a sheet of glue ... I was sort of panicking, and then I got glue in the inner grooves and onto the label. At that point I stopped the turntable and cleaned off the label and the deadwax with a cloth. I turned on the turntable again and sort of repeated the process (and some spillover was starting to happen) and it became clear that I needed all the glue to connect, so I stopped using the toothbrush. I got the credit card out (actually it was a debit card, don't know if that makes a difference) poured more glue on the record, and started to smooth it out with the card. I eventually got the record coated in glue. There was a little bit of spillover off the edges onto the paper. The paper gave me the advantage of being able to remove the record from the turntable to somewhere else. I then removed the record off the paper and put it on another piece of paper. It stuck to the paper because of the spillover (I noticed glue fingerprints at the bottom from my handling of the record). I put it on another piece of paper trying to get more glue off the bottom. After I got as much off as I could, I moved the record to a microfiber cloth to dry (because I don't want it to dry with paper stuck to it -- it should be easier to remove the cloth later in one piece than a bunch of paper glued onto the record). The second record glueing went much more smoothly. I made an initial recording of the record, which was after I already had cleaned it with my regular cleaning method which usually gets records looking and playing very clean. The record just looked slightly scuffy and it wasn't clear what all the noise was coming from. I put down paper onto the plastic mat, then put the adapter and record on it. I turned on the turntable and applied glue up and down the record so it covered most of it. I then spread the glue across the record with the card so it was in one sheet. Then I turned off the turntable and manually used the brush to scrub the glue into the grooves, rotating the platter manually until I was satisfied that I got the whole thing and all grooves. At that point there were a bunch of thin, unconnected lines on the 45. I turned it back on, poured more glue on it, and used the card again to turn the glue into one sheet. I managed to avoid both spillover and glue near the deadwax. I turned the turntable off and picked up the paper off the turntable with the record. I transferred the record to another piece of paper to soak up any spillover (I don't think there was any). I then transferred it to a cloth to dry overnight. Here are the records drying (I tried to color coordinate the cloths and labels as best I could): I will report back after the glue dries and I peel it off (I will save the peeled off glue and take a photo of it). For the mighty ryeders it looks like I will have to clean off glue from the other side again which is annoying. When handling the record, I guess you have to be very careful to only use your fingernails and only touch the edge of the record so you don't get glue fingerprints on the bottom, unglued side. In the morning after it dries, I will peel off and clean off any glue and make recordings to see what happened. I'm hopeful that the new record will sound much better (if not both -- the ryeders 45 probably will not play better because the noise is probably due to scratches and the low volume of the record). Edited March 6, 2012 by boba Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Sebastian Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Just a thought: if you let the turntable rotate while applying the glue, the centrifugal force will propel the glue outwards causing more spillover than if the record was still. At least have it on 33rpm instead of 45rpm. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
boba Posted March 6, 2012 Author Share Posted March 6, 2012 Just a thought: if you let the turntable rotate while applying the glue, the centrifugal force will propel the glue outwards causing more spillover than if the record was still. At least have it on 33rpm instead of 45rpm. well when squeezing the glue on, it stays in lines where you put it. The spillover and movement comes from the spreading process. I agree that doing it at 33 or even manually might be a better idea when you're spreading the glue. Actually that definitely would be better, as there are always thin spots and as it's spinning I try to hit the thin spots with more glue and it's difficult since it's spinning fast. If I were rotating it manually at that point, I could also put the glue exactly where it was needed. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Mace Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 (edited) Do you get out much Bob ? Edited March 6, 2012 by Mace 1 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Sebastian Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 I agree that doing it at 33 or even manually might be a better idea when you're spreading the glue. Actually that definitely would be better, as there are always thin spots and as it's spinning I try to hit the thin spots with more glue and it's difficult since it's spinning fast. If I were rotating it manually at that point, I could also put the glue exactly where it was needed. Try to find an old turntable that has the option to spin 16rpm records as well. Probably would make it a lot easier. Good luck! 1 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
boba Posted March 6, 2012 Author Share Posted March 6, 2012 Do you get out much Bob ? One thing I like to do is count the number of grooves in each record Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Amsterdam Russ Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 (edited) The record on the green paper doesn't have enough glue on it. What you need is a consistent white covering. The record on the orange paper is much better, but still you have patches that need more glue. Here's the photo I uploaded in the other thread. You'll see that the application of glue is consistent across the playing surface. Note that the British UA 45 on the left does not have enough glue on it. And, after taking this picture, I applied more. Note that all these were done by hand - no turntable needed! Edited March 6, 2012 by Russell Gilbert Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
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